Is it time to bring Hart off the bench?

Discussion in 'Portland Trail Blazers' started by CJ_is_Gone, Dec 22, 2022.

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Bring Hart off the Bench?

  1. Yes

    7 vote(s)
    31.8%
  2. No

    15 vote(s)
    68.2%
  1. STOMP

    STOMP mere fan

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    A 23 year old professional athlete doesn't get absolutely gassed in 18 minutes of play interupted by umpteen stops in the action. Good grief thats soft nonsense.

    STOMP
     
  2. Fairly-Hard

    Fairly-Hard Former Member Gone New!

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    Was thinking the exact same thing. 18 mins out of 24 with multiple TV time outs and a break at the quarter isn’t going to wipe out a player.
    At least it shouldn’t.
     
  3. BonesJones

    BonesJones https://www.youtube.com/c/blazersuprise

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    I take it you've never played basketball before. There's a reason teams don't play their players for 18 minute shifts. But you know better than them and they're all soft for that?
     
  4. STOMP

    STOMP mere fan

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    Lol, no never played... expect for a little 25 year stretch 4-5 times a week in varioius leagues and the best pickup runs I could find in the Bay Area. I've played with/against many D1/NBA players and even an All-Star (Terrell Brandon). I kept myself in good shape and could run a 5 minute mile and even grab the rim at my best which isn't bad for someone 5'10. But even at my best I'm sure a slam dunk champ/super athlete like Ant could glide circles around me.

    No it isn't optimal to play your 2nd best player off the bench or to play anyone in one straight stretch as everyone is fresher with more rest, but it's really not optimal to have your two best players be 6'2 190 lb PGs. Regardless, sell that soft/completely gassed BS elsewhere.

    STOMP
     
    Last edited: Dec 25, 2022
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  5. Fairly-Hard

    Fairly-Hard Former Member Gone New!

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    It's not happening as much now. Seems about 20 years ago they started cycling through and shifting players much more. 20 mins a half was pretty normal for players like Jordan. Iverson, Bird, Cheeks, Ellis.
    Of course if you go back to Wilt you have lots of players playing that much and Wilt actually averaging just under a complete game.
    Heres a note of significance. Lillard 2020, Randle 2021 and Siakam 2022 are all recent leaders averaging about 38 mins a game. That would be pretty close to 19 mins a half.

    A 23 year old player should be able to make it 18 mins a half without too much problem and actually most of us in here think 36 mins a game is about right for a starter.
     
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  6. PtldPlatypus

    PtldPlatypus Let's go Baby Blazers! Staff Member Global Moderator Moderator

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    Just under? I think you mean just over. In 61-62, he played every minute for Philly, averaging 48.5 mpg.
     
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  7. BonesJones

    BonesJones https://www.youtube.com/c/blazersuprise

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    Ant isn't 6'2.

    An NBA game is much more physically intensive then your pickup runs. Athleticism and stamina aren't the same. Ant gliding circles around you or me doesn't mean he's not going to suffer having to play 18 straight minutes where he has to keep up with the best athletes in the world. Thinking that's "soft" is silly.
     
  8. BonesJones

    BonesJones https://www.youtube.com/c/blazersuprise

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    I'm not talking about 18 minutes a half, I'm talking about 18 minutes straight. There's a reason NBA coaches avoid doing this.

    The game is also faster paced than it was back then.
     
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  9. PCmor7

    PCmor7 Generational Poster

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    Try it sometime. Then come back and tell us all how it's nonsense.

    The starting and stopping is a lot harder than running long distances at a continuous pace, not even counting the jumping and physical contact.

    But, I mean, if you don't believe me, show me who else in the NBA does this or has done this in recent memory.
     
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  10. STOMP

    STOMP mere fan

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    It’s not Ant who I think is Charmin soft. I’m 100% positive he’d laugh at your claims of what he’s not capable of. No one is buying your nonsense, so sorry. Merry Christmas softy!

    STOMP
     
  11. BonesJones

    BonesJones https://www.youtube.com/c/blazersuprise

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    I'm not gonna sit here resorting to whatever childish bullshit you're on. Just show me one coach brings a 20ppg scorer off the bench to play 18 minutes straight to end halves. I'll be waiting. Shoot, I'll give you the past decade to find one coach thats done that.

    Hope you had a Merry Christmas Thibs.
     
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  12. BonesJones

    BonesJones https://www.youtube.com/c/blazersuprise

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    But he ran a 5 minute mile and played pickup runs! Every coach is soft!

    BONES
     
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  13. STOMP

    STOMP mere fan

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    Sorry Charmin. The garbage you threw out on any player going 18 minutes in a half being completely gassed is just wrong countered not just by me but by decades of NBA hoopers proving otherwise. Among other things those guys were also dealing with inferior shoes, regular back to back to back games, coach travel on planes, crap food and lodging & yet many were posting what you deam near impossible 80+ games a year. Like playing in one longer stretch, none of those things are ideal or maximize performance but the human body is capable of a lot more then the limitations you seemingly can't grasp.

    btw, I've done a hell of a lot more athletically then just run a 5 minute mile & play some pretty high level hoops yet I'm sure I was capable of more. Why? Because the people I've known/competed with and against in various athletic events have given me up close and personal examples.

    STOMP
     
    Last edited: Dec 26, 2022
  14. STOMP

    STOMP mere fan

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    Read then post. As previously relayed, I regularly played for decades in the best leagues and games I could find in the Bay Area. In college at UO, I ran with Duck players in their pickup runs. Heck back when I was Ant's age, I often played on concrete for an hour plus many times a week. My closest friends did as well... little did we know we were doing the impossible lol

    STOMP
     
    Last edited: Dec 26, 2022
  15. CJ_is_Gone

    CJ_is_Gone Well-Known Member

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    IMO it has a lot to do with the floor leadership.

    Dame or Hart could be in the game with those same bench players - and the team can somewhat withstand that. Swap Dame/Hart out with Ant & the bench unit becomes a complete $#!& show...
     
  16. CJ_is_Gone

    CJ_is_Gone Well-Known Member

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    You're making assumptions here that don't need to be the case.
    Portland could easily break each quarter into 3- four (4) minute segments. It's fairly easy to keep everyone from playing more than 8-minute stretches.

    What I really like about this approach is that the team always has at least 2 starter quality players on the floor at all times.

    Q1.a - Dame, Hart, Grant, Watford, Nurk
    Q1.b - Dame, Ant, Sharpe, Grant, Eubanks
    Q1.c - Ant, GP2, Hart, Watford, Nurk

    Q2.a - Ant, GP2, Hart, Watford, Nurk
    Q2.b - Dame, GP2, Sharpe, Grant, Eubanks
    Q2.c - Dame, Ant, Hart, Grant, Nurk

    Q3.a - Dame, Hart, Grant, Watford, Nurk
    Q3.b - Dame, Ant, Sharpe, Grant, Eubanks
    Q3.c - Ant, GP2, Hart, Watford, Nurk

    Q4.a - Ant, GP2, Hart, Watford, Nurk
    Q4.b - Dame, GP2, Sharpe, Grant, Eubanks
    Q4.c - Dame, Ant, Hart, Hart, Grant, Nurk

    This results in a 9-man rotation with approximate playing time broken down like this.
    32-minute players: Dame, Ant, Hart, Grant, Nurk
    24-minute players: Watford, GP2 (or Winslow)
    16-minute players: Sharpe, Eubanks


    PG:
    Dame: 32 mins
    Ant: 16 mins

    SG:
    Ant: 16 mins
    Hart: 8 mins
    GP2: 24 mins (this could be Winslow at the SF position instead - pushing Hart/Sharpe to the SG)

    SF:
    Hart: 24 mins
    Sharpe: 16 mins
    Grant: 8 mins

    PF:
    Grant: 24 mins
    Watford: 24 mins

    C:
    Nurk: 32 mins
    Eubanks: 16 mins
     
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  17. cheesehoff

    cheesehoff Well-Known Member

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    What makes basketball so hard to win consistently is that what works for one team may not work for another. Having 2 smaller guards who can't defend at all means they have to use Hart and Grant to guard the other teams top scorers, which means we have to have some bad mismatches like Dame or Ant guarding Porter or Gordon, or both. Throw in a dancing bear center who can't stay in front of anybody, a defensive that switches everything, and it's gonna be tough to slow any team.
    I'll get in the dick measuring game if that's what it takes to prove basketball knowledge. With this team there are several smaller issues that add up to bigger problems. I think the first steps are getting a better partner for Dame at the 2 and a center that is more athletic and consistent.
     
  18. Rastapopoulos

    Rastapopoulos Well-Known Member

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  19. PCmor7

    PCmor7 Generational Poster

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    I did read it. I played in a big summer league, too, for years against NBA players, overseas pros, major college players, even a couple of Harlem Globetrotters. I also coached basically every level.

    Summer leagues we played 40 minutes with running clocks except the last two minutes. It's nothing ... NOTHING ... like an actual organized team playing with high stakes where EVERYONE is a top-level athlete. The level of playing is nothing alike. To think that it is your level of self-awareness has to be about zero, or you might be the most narcissistic person on this board, and that means even more than me and Bones.
     
  20. PCmor7

    PCmor7 Generational Poster

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    Just when I thought I read everything I could read on this board, someone still proves they can surprise me with their ability to be delusional.
     
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