Re: Reyes > A-Rod?! http://www.newsday.com/sports/baseball/met...l=ny-mets-print<div class='quotetop'>QUOTE </div><div class='quotemain'>It probably won't have the legs of "Willie or Mickey?" because they likely won't share the Big Apple spotlight for such an extended period. But at the moment, New York baseball enthusiasts can debate this question: REYES OR A-ROD?Whom would you rather have on your 2007 club? Mets shortstop Jose Reyes or Yankees third baseman Alex Rodriguez? Both have enjoyed monster starts to the season, putting very early stakes on their leagues' Most Valuable Player awards.Newsday posed the question to the experts - executives and scouts around the industry, although not from the Mets or Yankees - who were asked to keep in mind not only the players' talents, but also their ages and contracts.Of the 16 officials from 16 clubs that responded, on the condition of anonymity, Reyes won in a blowout, 11 to 5.For some of the Reyes supporters, the cheaper salary won them over. For others, it was the Met's low-maintenance personality, compared with the soap opera that A-Rod's career tends to be. Another pair of respondents cited Reyes' versatility.Those who voted for A-Rod tended to stress the slugger's strengths, rather than Reyes' weaknesses."A-Rod bats third in my lineup," one front-office person said, "and I don't care about the money."AFFORDABLE REYESThat pro-A-Rod executive was the only one who had no worries about the money coming to the future Hall of Famer. Rodriguez has a contract through 2010 with the Yankees, for $27 million per season, but it is universally believed that A-Rod will opt out of those years - a right the Rangers gave him when they committed 10 years and $252 million to him, in December 2000 - and shop himself on the free-agent market.Reyes, on the other hand, signed a four-year, $23.25-million agreement with the Mets last season, with an $11-million team option for 2011. He has one of the most team-friendly deals in the entire industry."Absolutely Reyes," one front-office person said, mentioning Reyes' contract. "No question about it.""My initial reaction is to say A-Rod, for the simple reason that he is without a doubt the best player in the league," another executive said. "However, if you add into the mix that you are talking about a 24-year-old shortstop whom you would control through 2011 versus a player who no longer plays a premium position and will very likely be a free agent at the end of the season, I have to give the nod to Reyes. "Even if you told me to eliminate considerations beyond this season, I think I would still stick with Reyes, so long as I get to spend the $20-million difference between their current salaries on improving the club that has Reyes and not A-Rod."Reyes, who turns 24 on June 11, will make $2.875 million this year, far beneath A-Rod's $27 million.A third official noted that Reyes' contract, already a bargain, will look far better by the time 2011 rolls along. Without the salary consideration, this official noted, it would be a tougher call.A fourth talent evaluator put it simply: "Reyes, because he is not represented by Scott Boras in an out year."UNWANTED DRAMAAs much as the Yankees have struggled this season, they would be in far worse shape if not for A-Rod. The 31-year-old has smoked the ball, contributing two walk-off homers among his 14 round-trippers.Nevertheless, the participants in this survey weren't so blown away that they disregarded the past turbulence in Rodriguez's career.With Reyes, one official said: "You don't have to worry about the three-ring circus that follows A-Rod each and every game. There are too-high expectations for A-Rod. The focus is always on him and not the team. You don't have that problem with Reyes."Offered a scout: "I think that A-Rod is hypersensitive, and that affects his mood swings and performance swings. It appears from a distance that Reyes is less susceptible to these fluctuations."A second scout said that, despite A-Rod's current run, he couldn't shake visions of Rodriguez's outward lack of confidence during slumps.ALL-AROUND GAMEMost baseball people view Rodriguez as a five-tool player, yet his power hitting stands out most. Whereas Reyes' speed intrigued some respondents enough to go with the shortstop."He can beat you with so many weapons," one front-office employee said of Reyes."When you need a hit, he can come through with a bunt, a home run, a stolen base. A-Rod has got more power, no doubt about it. But if you tell me that it's the ninth inning, and who you want to come into the plate to win the game for you? Between A-Rod and Reyes, I'll pick Reyes."A scout, citing Reyes' youth and speed as his deciding factor, said: "He can manufacture more runs than a home run streak. He's tougher to pitch to with the switch-hitting ability, if you need a hit."One general manager, wrapping up the argument for Reyes, said: "He's dominant for the position, young and affordable. On so many levels, he provides a competitive advantage."WHAT ABOUT A-ROD? No respondent offered a single word of criticism for Reyes. But of the minority that voted for A-Rod, some expressed amazement that the Yankee's greatness wasn't appreciated more.While calling Reyes "the 2007 version of Steve Austin, the Six Million Dollar Man," one official argued, "Alex Rodriguez is a once-in-a-lifetime player.Too bad the New York fans have never embraced him for what he is. He's one of the five greatest players of all time. "It takes a great team to win a championship. Only A-Rod is capable of 800 homers and playing shortstop or third base at a Gold Glove caliber."Added a scout: "Reyes is a terrific player, but I wouldn't take him over Rodriguez, not in a minute. Put a bat in their hands, and Reyes isn't in the same park as this guy. It's hands down."Overall, however, Reyes won, hands down, among the professionals. But that shouldn't stop the Yankees and Mets fans from arguing it out on their own.REYES SCORECARDCheaper salaryLow-maintenance personalityVersatility and speed2007 SALARY: $2.875 millionA-ROD SCORECARDHall-of-Fame playerPower numbersGold Glove defender2007 SALARY: $27 million</div><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE </div><div class='quotemain'>JOSE REYES 2007 STATS A-RODThrough Friday's games 21 GAMES 2124 RUNS 2732 HITS 315 TRIPLES 02 HOME RUNS 1416 RBIs 3413 STOLEN BASES 2.429 ON-BASE PERCENTAGE .429.598 SLUGGING PERCENTAGE .941.348 BATTING AVERAGE .365</div>Here we go... :whistling:
Re: Reyes > A-Rod?! They don't even play the same position....... but A-Rod is the best player in baseball.A lot of people don't realize just how good A-Rod really is. And I'm not being a homer when I say this. Most NY fans don't even realize it. As a down year for A-Rod, he batted .290, knocked in 35 home runs, stole 15 bases, had 166 hits, drove in 121 runs, and scored 113 runs himself. This is a very mediocre year. That's an "I've just had a career year, give me a huge contract" money for anyone else in this league. Now lets assume he continues to have these mediocre years. He will:Break the All Time Runs Record (Ricky Henderson) when he is 37.Break the All Time Home Run Record (Hank Aaron) when he is 38.Break the All Time RBI Record (Hank Aaron) when he is 38.Break the All Time Hits Record (Pete Rose) when he is 42.Oh, and if he plays to his career averages since he started playing full seasons, he'll break them even sooner than that. Barring Ken Griffey Jr. style injuries, A-Rod will finish as the greatest player ever to play the game. Maybe Jose Reyes will do even better. But I doubt it.
Re: Reyes > A-Rod?! oh come on. this isnt even close. Even before he had a great April, he was a better player. I love Reyes, I do...but Alex Rodriguez has the ability to hit 800 Homeruns and steal 500 bases (not saying he will, but he could). ARod is an excellent defender at 3rd OR SS, will hit 45-60 HRs a year, 120+ RBIs, 120+ runs scored, maybe 20 steals. Reyes is great but no one in baseball can touch ARod right now.
Re: Reyes > A-Rod?! [quote name='Nebkreb' post='91218' date='Apr 30 2007, 02:38 PM']oh come on. this isnt even close. Even before he had a great April, he was a better player. I love Reyes, I do...but Alex Rodriguez has the ability to hit 800 Homeruns and steal 500 bases (not saying he will, but he could). ARod is an excellent defender at 3rd OR SS, will hit 45-60 HRs a year, 120+ RBIs, 120+ runs scored, maybe 20 steals. Reyes is great but no one in baseball can touch ARod right now.[/quote]Mainly playing devils advocate, let's discuss each of these points individually. Assumeing he stays healthy, yes A-Rod could break the all-time Home Run Record.And while Jose Reyes will never have that kind of power, I do think as he progresses he will eventually become a 30 Home Run Hitter yearly as he has that kind of pop in his bat. A-Rod is not stealing 500 bases, nor is he even coming close to that one.As of right now he's stolen 243 bases and at 31 years old all of his prime base-stealing years are behind him. Now is when he is losing speed, as shown by his Stolen Base numbers dropping each of the last 3 seasons. I'd be suprised if he surpassed 350 Stolen Bases for his career. Reyes on the other hand has Stolen 172 bases already and is still 23 years old (Doesn't turn 24 until June). 8 Years from now Reyes when Reyes is also 31, he will probably already have 500 Stolen Bases under his belt, if not much more. Alex Rodriguez to this date has been an Average fielder at Third Base. Granted, he is much improved from where he was a year ago, but I wouldn't label him an 'excellent defender' either.Reyes on the other hand is a an above-average Shortstop Defensively, although I wouldn't label him a Gold Glove Shortstop either. RBI's really don't mean much for this comparison as it is a stat solely dependant on lineup context and batting order, and if Reyes was a cleanup hitter like A-Rod is he would very likely drive in 120 runs as well.Reyes scored 120+ runs last year as well and stole 60+ bases Same deal, lets take this point by point. Reyes is coming off a year where he batted .300, knocked in 19 home runs (On top of 17 triples), stole 64 bases, had 194 hits, drove in 81 Runs (But as I said already, if you batted Reyes cleanup like you would with A-Rod, Reyes would drive in 120 runs easily), and scored 122 runs himself. Reyes is only getting better. While all that is nice, you're not factoring in regression, injury, and many other factors that can derail those record runs.
Re: Reyes > A-Rod?! See now it's my turn to make my Devils Advocate arguement. If I was given a choice on which player to build a team around, I'd be hard pressed not to choose Reyes. - Reyes is younger, and still constantly improveing. - Reyes is a switch hitter, so opposing teams can't bring in a situational reliever against him.- Reyes brings a level of speed that is unmatched in the league right now, nobody is better at stretching a single in a double or a double into a triple, nobody is better at stealing bases and putting yourself into scoring position for your teammates to drive you home. You can find a great power hitter elsewheres, but there isn't another player in the league right now that does what Reyes does with his speed.- In any given year you will be able to expect Reyes to put up 120+ runs, 190+ hits, 70+ Extra Base Hits between Doubles, Triples, and Home Runs, and 60 plus stolen bases on top of a .300+ average. His plate disclipline is constantly improveing, he is begining to walk as much as somebody like A-Rod is, and he strikes out alot less. And that's just assumeing he continues to play at the level he already has last year, if he improves as he gets older (Which one would expect) those numbers would just keep getting better and better.- I'd hate to bring financials into it, but Reyes makes alot less money because of his youth.
Re: Reyes > A-Rod?! <div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (AdropOFvenom @ Apr 30 2007, 04:13 PM) <{POST_SNAPBACK}></div><div class='quotemain'><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE </div><div class='quotemain'>Break the All Time Runs Record (Ricky Henderson) when he is 37.Break the All Time Home Run Record (Hank Aaron) when he is 38.Break the All Time RBI Record (Hank Aaron) when he is 38.Break the All Time Hits Record (Pete Rose) when he is 42.</div>While all that is nice, you're not factoring in regression, injury, and many other factors that can derail those record runs.</div>Yeah, but I was basing that off of his down year. Not even his league average, or even his Yankee average. He's probably going to break those records before then.
Re: Reyes > A-Rod?! this is the dumbest argument ever. you might as well compare reggie bush to matt cain.oh wait....come on, two of the most different players in the frekain MLB. arod is the best 3B in the MLB, reyes is the best SS in the MLB, does that satisfy both you new york freaks?
Re: Reyes > A-Rod?! <div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (iknobaer @ Apr 30 2007, 09:21 PM) <{POST_SNAPBACK}></div><div class='quotemain'>this is the dumbest argument ever. you might as well compare reggie bush to matt cain.oh wait....come on, two of the most different players in the frekain MLB. arod is the best 3B in the MLB, reyes is the best SS in the MLB, does that satisfy both you new york freaks?</div>It is a dumb arguement, but that'll never be good enough to New Yorkers. Some New Yorkers still make a big deal that Billy Wagner enters his save situations to "Enter Sandman" by Metallica which is the same song that Mariano Rivera uses (Even though Wagner started using that song first), so we are the masters at dumb arguements. And the question 'Who would you rather build your team around out of A-Rod and Reyes?' is a fair question. :thumbsup: BTW, Don't ever expect Yankee fans to concede that Reyes is better then Jeter.
Re: Reyes > A-Rod?! <div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (AdropOFvenom @ May 1 2007, 08:56 AM) <{POST_SNAPBACK}></div><div class='quotemain'><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (iknobaer @ Apr 30 2007, 09:21 PM) <{POST_SNAPBACK}></div><div class='quotemain'>this is the dumbest argument ever. you might as well compare reggie bush to matt cain.oh wait....come on, two of the most different players in the frekain MLB. arod is the best 3B in the MLB, reyes is the best SS in the MLB, does that satisfy both you new york freaks?</div>It is a dumb arguement, but that'll never be good enough to New Yorkers. Some New Yorkers still make a big deal that Billy Wagner enters his save situations to "Enter Sandman" by Metallica which is the same song that Mariano Rivera uses (Even though Wagner started using that song first), so we are the masters at dumb arguements. And the question 'Who would you rather build your team around out of A-Rod and Reyes?' is a fair question. :thumbsup: BTW, Don't ever expect Yankee fans to concede that Reyes is better then Jeter. </div>1. Reyes is not better than Jeter and never will be because he won't lead the Mets to multiple World Series rings.2. Rivera started using Enter Sandman since 1996. When did Wagner start using it?
Re: Reyes > A-Rod?! You have to be the biggest homer ever, Reyes is a hell of alot younger, and is the best ss in the league, jeter on the other hand has took years to get a name, reyes is the best ss and is very young. Also, playing for so cheap shows his passion for the game.
Re: Reyes > A-Rod?! <div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (Project @ May 1 2007, 11:44 AM) <{POST_SNAPBACK}></div><div class='quotemain'>You have to be the biggest homer ever, Reyes is a hell of alot younger, and is the best ss in the league, jeter on the other hand has took years to get a name, reyes is the best ss and is very young. Also, playing for so cheap shows his passion for the game.</div>Jeter took exactly 1 year to get a name in NY, and 2 years to get a name nationwide.And Reyes has more years left in him, but he'll never do what Jeter did. When all is said and done, Jeter will be higher on anyone's all time SS list.
Re: Reyes > A-Rod?! Reyes stats will blow Jeter's out of the water when its all said and done. We're talking about the Best SS in the game that's only 23. He can steal 60, Hit for .300, Hit 20 hr's, and score a ton of runs. He also has a better arm than Jeter and overall better defense.
Re: Reyes > A-Rod?! <div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (GotSkillz92 @ May 1 2007, 12:12 PM) <{POST_SNAPBACK}></div><div class='quotemain'>Reyes stats will blow Jeter's out of the water when its all said and done. We're talking about the Best SS in the game that's only 23. He can steal 60, Hit for .300, Hit 20 hr's, and score a ton of runs. He also has a better arm than Jeter and overall better defense.</div>He won't be the MVP of a multi World Series winner and have amazing play after amazing play for that team on the way to the championship year after year.
Re: Reyes > A-Rod?! he wont be MVP multiple times in WS because the Mets, although their payroll is high, dont buy every single one of their players.Vilma, im sorry, but you really are the biggest homer ever. i know most yankee fans are like this, but, when the obvious is lying right in front of you, you gotta just go with it.Jose Reyes is the best SS in the game right now. When it's all said and done, he will still be a better SS then Derek Jeter. Let's do your thing like you did for A-Rod shall we?Now, we are going to go with his stats from 2006, because those are his more likely stats, now that he has settled into the league.If he continues those stats every year, until, let's say, 38, which is 2022, his stats will be:Average (career): .297, and he is batting way over .300 this year, so it could very much go up.Runs: 2253, 42 away from Ricky Henderson's all-time recordHits: 3628, would put him 5th all-timeDoubles: 562, would put him 20th all-timeTriples: 312, would put him 1st all-timeHome Runs: 337, i'll take any leadoff hitter that can hit 337 career home runsRBIs: 1481, for a leadoff hitter, are you kidding me?SB: 1180, 2nd all-timeOk, so that's that. Now, his numbers will certainly be +/- every year, especially in home runs and doubles and triples. his stolen bases will be around the same every year, and his average could be better every year. Ok. So, now, let's compare. Derek Jeter's career batting average right now is .317. Unfortunately, Jose Reyes has yet to even come close to his career year, and Jeter is on his way down in his career, he has peaked, and he will start to deteriorate now. Derek Jeter will never get to 2100 runs.Derek Jeter will never get to 3200 hits.Derek Jeter will never get to 500 doubles. He will never come close to 200 triples.He will never get 300 home runs. RBIs: Maybe, but that's only because the Yankees buy their team so he has a good lineup around him.Stolen Bases: Lets not even get started.Im sorry man, but, even with +/-, Reyes, in the short term and long-run, will benefit his team more then Derek Jeter. Jeter did not lead the Yankees to World Series Titles. Steinbrener bought the Yankees World Series Titles. The Yanks will not win the World Series again until they realize they have to groom their own players, and can't just buy their team, and need to get some pitching. One more thing, Jose Reyes will win at least 1 MVP. Derek Jeter will not.Derek Jeter's defense is not that amazing. He sometimes dives so it "looks" cool. Plenty of other players dive into the stands and get bloody, but Jeter gets recognition because he plays for the Yankees. You want to see a good defensive SS, watch Omar Vizquel.One last thing, if there was an expansion team starting, who would you rather build your team around, Jose Reyes or Derek Jeter? Obviously Reyes, not just because he is younger, but he can help your team more. Jeter is only who he is because he has had the team his whole career because the Yankees have been able to buy their teams.You think if he had been on the freakin Royals his whole career, we'd even be having this argument? Heck no. But with Reyes, who knows.
Re: Reyes > A-Rod?! <div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (iknobaer @ May 1 2007, 03:21 PM) <{POST_SNAPBACK}></div><div class='quotemain'>he wont be MVP multiple times in WS because the Mets, although their payroll is high, dont buy every single one of their players.</div>The Yankees never bought any championships. Anyone who says they did does not have their facts straight. They've always had a high payroll under The Boss, but it was not extraordinarily high during their multiple championship run. In fact, the first team to ever win a Championship with a payroll of over 100 million was not the Yankees, it was the Red Sox. Not that they Yankees haven't attempted to buy one since, but they haven't been successful.
