Hi guys, I'm new to the forum, I like the atmosphere here, alot of smart fans. Well I took the time, to show you guys ideas on rebuilding the Knicks quickly out of cap hell, and add youth and defense As you know, we're a soft team, team shoot very high FG and 3pt % against us, and we can't block shots, or play consistant defense. Also we're loaded with undersized PF's who can't block shots. These moves will try to fix all these problems, and advance the Knicks into a well balanced team by the year 2007 Kurt Thomas is a great guy, great role playing PF, thats a pretty good trade value to a team that needs that kind of guy Knicks trade Kurt Thomas Rockets trade Clerance Weatherspoon + the 24 overall pick of 2005 You guys may be wondering WHY I made this move. We'll first, the first round pick (with alot of talent in the late round) we could draft a pretty decent player that can develop into a good player for us. Another reason is the fact that Kurt Thomas has 4 years left on his deal, in return we get an expiring contract Yeh I've added another undersized PF who can't block, isn't atheletic or explosivess, but the point of this trade is the expiring contract and the first rounder, Weatherspoon goes on the IR My mission is to get rid of these undersized PF's, so now I look to deal with Chicago, who has Harington as their starter, which is pathetic. New York Trade Breakdown Outgoing Trevor Ariza 6-8 SF from UCLA 5.8 ppg, 3.0 rpg, 1.1 apg in 17.3 minutes Mike Sweetney 6-8 PF from Georgetown 8.4 ppg, 5.4 rpg, 0.6 apg in 19.6 minutes Malik Rose 6-7 PF from Drexel 8.3 ppg, 4.4 rpg, 0.7 apg in 23.6 minutes Maurice Taylor 6-9 PF from Michigan 7.8 ppg, 4.3 rpg, 1.4 apg in 23.8 minutes Incoming Andres Nocioni 6-7 SF from Argentina 8.4 ppg, 4.8 rpg, 1.5 apg in 23.4 minutes Antonio Davis 6-9 PF from Texas-El Paso 7.0 ppg, 5.9 rpg, 1.1 apg in 25.6 minutes Change in team outlook: -14.9 ppg, -6.4 rpg, and -1.2 apg. Chicago Trade Breakdown Outgoing Andres Nocioni 6-7 SF from Argentina 8.4 ppg, 4.8 rpg, 1.5 apg in 23.4 minutes Antonio Davis 6-9 PF from Texas-El Paso 7.0 ppg, 5.9 rpg, 1.1 apg in 25.6 minutes Incoming Trevor Ariza 6-8 SF from UCLA 5.8 ppg, 3.0 rpg, 1.1 apg in 17.3 minutes Mike Sweetney 6-8 PF from Georgetown 8.4 ppg, 5.4 rpg, 0.6 apg in 19.6 minutes Malik Rose 6-7 PF from Drexel 8.3 ppg, 4.4 rpg, 0.7 apg in 23.6 minutes Maurice Taylor 6-9 PF from Michigan 7.8 ppg, 4.3 rpg, 1.4 apg in 23.8 minutes Change in team outlook: +14.9 ppg, +6.4 rpg, and +1.2 apg. Successful Scenario Due to New York and Chicago being over the cap, the 15% trade rule is invoked. New York and Chicago had to be no more than 115% plus $100,000 of the salary given out for the trade to be accepted, which did happen here. This trade satisfies the provisions of the Collective Bargaining Agreement. Knicks Nocioni brings toughness, a defensive presence all over the court, and rebounding to team, so does Davis, captain of the bulls, bringing us more leader ship and experience, with his defensive and rebounding Plus Davis has an expiring contract, we get rid of Rose's, Taylor's ugly long contracts, give the Bulls a gift with Sweetney and Ariza. Bulls line up woud look like this Hinrich/Duhon Gordon/Pargo Deng/Ariza Sweetney/Rose/Taylor Curry/Chandler Look at it like this, if Knicks make these deals, look at the expiring contracts in 06 Penny Tim Thomas Davis Weatherspoon and in 07 Houston Now in the draft, we need to draft players who aren't spectators on the court, like a Tim Thomas, players who show their agressiveness on the court everytime they play at #8, Tiago Splitter would be my main choice, professional basketball player since 16, with a combination of athleism and skill, he could be a major impact on defense with his shot blocking ability, rebounding and being very alert on defense (is known for his smartness on the court) Sites have compared him to Gasol, thats ridiculous, Gasol isn't physical like Splitter. Splitter is more like a Tyon Chandler type player, with more skill, and less rawness at #24, Rudy Fernandez would be my choice, a player with everything, an all around game like Ginobili, plays like a veteran and only born in 85. His combination of versitility (PG/SG/SF), athelism, and shooting would be a steal @ 24 at #30, Turiaf would be the man to put an impact on our defense, and change the fact that we're the worst shot blocking team in the NBA, with his toughness, and Ben Wallace style of play would completely change our soft style of play and @ 54, I would choose the player with best talent and potential available, Sean Banks I've tried to find some clips of him, i've had no luck, but I really like what I've heard about him. or could go with that Lithiuan NCAA Slam Dunk camp, just to play Ariza So the Line up would be.. Marbury/Crawford/Fernandez Crawford/Fernandez/H20/Penny Nocioni/TT/Banks Splitter/Jerome Williams Davis/Turiaf/Butler As you see, I'm not aiming to go all out and be an elite squad in 2006, I just think this team would be more competitve, with a defensive front court with unlimited offense in the back court
The first trade scenario I thought was great. Kurt was good for us, but with Houston trying to make a strong push for the playoffs, someone like Kurt Thomas who is an immediate contributor and an excellent defensive player and rebounder would be ideal for them. We also get their 24th pick in the draft where we get even more depth to the roster and young talent; something we?ve lacked in a long time. The second one is what I?m having problems with. Sure we get Davis an expiring contract and Nocioni a very intense player, but we?re basically giving up our core for them. Sweetney is a hard worker and will be a very good player in the league as well as Ariza. Nocioni also isn?t that young himself for a rookie at age 26. I?m in favor of getting the overpaid players out, but not at the expense of a core like Sweetney and Ariza. Also, Taylor?s contract expires the same time as Allan Houston?s so that will be perfect for some of the free agents in that great 2003 draft class. NBA Draft: #8 Danny Granger #30 Andray Blatche #54 Doesn?t really matter. Maybe Jawad Williams I?m in favor a trade with Marbury and the Lakers for Brian Grant and their 10th pick where we draft Raymond Felton a defensive-minded, team-first, leader who can takeover the reigns as point guard. In addition, we get an expiring contract going along with Houston and Taylor. In total, in 2007, the Knicks will lose 45 million dollars off the cap! So they get young prospects, while getting better financially. Their future starting lineup will look like this: PG: Raymond Felton SG: Trevor Ariza SF: Danny Granger PF: Mike Sweetney C: Andray Blathce This will be a young lineup and will tear up the league for years to come. The bench will have players like: Julius Hodge Jamal Crawford Jackie Butler -- I really like that lineup for the future. Too bad it probably wouldn?t happen though. Anyway, welcome to the Knicks forum! Hopefully I?ll get to see more posts with such substance like this.
<div class="quote_poster">Quoting MrJ:</div><div class="quote_post">The first trade scenario I thought was great. Kurt was good for us, but with Houston trying to make a strong push for the playoffs, someone like Kurt Thomas who is an immediate contributor and an excellent defensive player and rebounder would be ideal for them. We also get their 24th pick in the draft where we get even more depth to the roster and young talent; something we?ve lacked in a long time. The second one is what I?m having problems with. Sure we get Davis an expiring contract and Nocioni a very intense player, but we?re basically giving up our core for them. Sweetney is a hard worker and will be a very good player in the league as well as Ariza. Nocioni also isn?t that young himself for a rookie at age 26. I?m in favor of getting the overpaid players out, but not at the expense of a core like Sweetney and Ariza. Also, Taylor?s contract expires the same time as Allan Houston?s so that will be perfect for some of the free agents in that great 2003 draft class. NBA Draft: #8 Danny Granger #30 Andray Blatche #54 Doesn?t really matter. Maybe Jawad Williams I?m in favor a trade with Marbury and the Lakers for Brian Grant and their 10th pick where we draft Raymond Felton a defensive-minded, team-first, leader who can takeover the reigns as point guard. In addition, we get an expiring contract going along with Houston and Taylor. In total, in 2007, the Knicks will lose 45 million dollars off the cap! So they get young prospects, while getting better financially. Their future starting lineup will look like this: PG: Raymond Felton SG: Trevor Ariza SF: Danny Granger PF: Mike Sweetney C: Andray Blathce This will be a young lineup and will tear up the league for years to come. The bench will have players like: Julius Hodge Jamal Crawford Jackie Butler -- I really like that lineup for the future. Too bad it probably wouldn?t happen though. Anyway, welcome to the Knicks forum! Hopefully I?ll get to see more posts with such substance like this. </div> Thanks, I like Blachte also, I wish he was avaialbe @ 30 I think he'll go early 20, Granger is a great player also from the draft Felton is the best point guard from the draft in my own opinion, I wouldnt mind that Lakers trade, Nice post
IF I was New York, I would not give up Kurt Thomas period until I get an established big. I know New York plans on addressing their bigman needs during the draft, but the draft is always a crap shoot. And New York could end up drafting a bigman that turns out to a bust right out the gate. And that would lead them with an even smaller frontline then they already have...Rose aint a 5, the only reason he was able to get away with it at times is cause for most of his stint in San Antonio, he was playing alongside Duncan. The Knicks have to be smart with the decision they make when moving Kurt Thomas. And that 2nd trade isnt good Andre Nocioni is a good player but no way do you give away part of your future with Sweets & Ariza.
<div class="quote_poster">Quoting Henacy:</div><div class="quote_post">IF I was New York, I would not give up Kurt Thomas period until I get an established big. I know New York plans on addressing their bigman needs during the draft, but the draft is always a crap shoot. And New York could end up drafting a bigman that turns out to a bust right out the gate. And that would lead them with an even smaller frontline then they already have...Rose aint a 5, the only reason he was able to get away with it at times is cause for most of his stint in San Antonio, he was playing alongside Duncan. The Knicks have to be smart with the decision they make when moving Kurt Thomas. And that 2nd trade isnt good Andre Nocioni is a good player but no way do you give away part of your future with Sweets & Ariza.</div> I'm not sold on Sweetney, His defense, his athelism. I see him as a Clerance Weatherspoon type Ariza will be good, but think about it, our cap issue is a much bigger problem, Ariza is replacable. I'm not really confident as seeing Sweetney "as the future" cause his lack of mobility on defense, and lack of shot blocking isn't going to help the team to contend (Hes a great post player, with good post moves no question) I just see Sweetney's weaknesses hurt us more than his strengths Kurt Thomas is 33 isn't he? He has 4 years left on his deal, He's done a great job in New York, but its time to move on, and start a new era if we want to be contenders
<div class="quote_poster">Quoting Henacy:</div><div class="quote_post">IF I was New York, I would not give up Kurt Thomas period until I get an established big. I know New York plans on addressing their bigman needs during the draft, but the draft is always a crap shoot. And New York could end up drafting a bigman that turns out to a bust right out the gate. And that would lead them with an even smaller frontline then they already have...Rose aint a 5, the only reason he was able to get away with it at times is cause for most of his stint in San Antonio, he was playing alongside Duncan. The Knicks have to be smart with the decision they make when moving Kurt Thomas.</div> Kurt Thomas is definitely important to the Knicks, but any chance we get to move him we should pull the trigger (of course being smart about it). Thomas has been consistent and quite possibly our MVP of the season, but that contract is awful and subtracting one of our many power forwards should be a main concern. Rose gives the Knicks the same thing as Thomas but is even shorter. Rose plays hard-nosed defense, has a good shooting touch, and gives the Knicks experience and leadership; something Kurt hasn?t provided this season. Sweetney is about to take over the power forward spot very soon and fighting over minutes with 4 other guys is killing his development process. Rose, Williams and Talor are almost immovable because of their contracts, and while Kurt has a bad one himself, he?s had a much better season than both of them. So Kurt being moved is the Knicks only hope in the next year or so. He also is very tired of the numerous never ending trade rumors and the way he?s been getting along with Marbury as of late. Rumor has it he might demand a trade soon. The picks are not sure things as you said, but this draft is pretty deep; so while your most likely not bound to get a star, a serviceable role player is available with just about every pick. Even if that player doesn?t turn out to be as good as Kurt Thomas, he could be the perfect piece to the team. We?ll never know unless we try. You also have projects like Blathce and Bynum who are even riskier, but have superstar potential and with Aguirre around, I?m more confident than ever about the progress of young big men. As I said, Thomas has been good and is a great role player for just about any team in the league, but I think it?s about time he leaves because his contract would hinders us from rebuilding and would diminish the development of Sweetney; our young power forward of the future.
<div class="quote_poster">Quoting j0se:</div><div class="quote_post">I'm not sold on Sweetney, His defense, his athelism. I see him as a Clerance Weatherspoon type Ariza will be good, but think about it, our cap issue is a much bigger problem, Ariza is replacable. I'm not really confident as seeing Sweetney "as the future" cause his lack of mobility on defense, and lack of shot blocking isn't going to help the team to contend (Hes a great post player, with good post moves no question) I just see Sweetney's weaknesses hurt us more than his strengths Kurt Thomas is 33 isn't he? He has 4 years left on his deal, He's done a great job in New York, but its time to move on, and start a new era if we want to be contenders</div> Not many are sold on Sweetney, but I?m very confident about him. Sure he?s not the most athletic player in the world or the best defender out there, but he?s still a solid player and his work ethic and willingness to learn is why he is a great asset for the future. Sweetney probably won?t be a superstar in the league and maybe not even a star, but he will be good for the team. Working with Aguirre, he?s increased his post moves by a large margin and he?s gotten into better shape. Some of the moves he does now physically, he couldn?t do as a rookie just because he worked on them. He?s a pretty adept rebounder and post player. On defense, he needs to be a bit quicker, but he is a very coachable player and with his strong work ethic, I believe he will eventually become a decent defender the at least.
Iam not saying that Kurt Thomas shouldnt be moved, Iam saying how can you move him before you get an establish big who can be effective at the 5 spot? It just isnt smart in my opinion. For most teams giving up Kurt Thomas inorder to get a quality first round pick may be smart. But with the way the Knicks bigman situation is right now, the 6'9 & under league, it just isnt smart in my opinion. And Sweetney still does have a long way to go but I still dont think Thomas would move two young prospects in Ariza & Sweets inorder to get on nice player in return, who at best will end up being a solid pro, but probably never star level type.
<div class="quote_poster">Quoting Henacy:</div><div class="quote_post">Iam not saying that Kurt Thomas shouldnt be moved, Iam saying how can you move him before you get an establish big who can be effective at the 5 spot? It just isnt smart in my opinion. For most teams giving up Kurt Thomas inorder to get a quality first round pick may be smart. But with the way the Knicks bigman situation is right now, the 6'9 & under league, it just isnt smart in my opinion.</div> Oh, I see what you?re saying now, but even though their center position needs plenty of work, I?m pretty sure Isiah will do all in his power to acquire a decent center through trade or free agency. Probably not a spectacular guy, but anyone who is decent that can clog up the middle will help us.
I'm not sure I like that second trade. Sweetney has the ability to become the next Elton Brand and with his work ethic I see him doing it in the near future, his only problem is he picks up fouls pretty quickly and Ariza if he can develop a solid jumpshot can become a very solid player. I like Nocioni but i'm not willing to give up our two future superstars for him. I would like to finally see some players getting drafted by the Knicks who grow into superstars as a Knick. As for the trade with Kurt I really like Kurt but if we can get the expiring contract for him we should and hopefully we will be able to sign Ilgauzkas next year with the hopes of getting Lebron when he is a free agent. If we clear enoguh cap room by the time Houston goes I could see Lebron coming to New York since he will be making more in endorsements than playing basketball. If we can get Lebron I think we should try and package Crawford with a few other guys for a solid Center with a future lineup in 2 years that could look like: Marbury/Lebron/Fernandez Lebron/Fernandez Ariza/Lebron/Banks Sweetney/Splitter/Jerome Williams Solid Center in trade/Ilgauzkas/Turiaf
To be fair, Elton Brand is more athletic and has a wingspan the size of Yao Ming if outstretched vertically, but Sweetney becoming a double-double machine is definitely not out of the question especially considering his work ethic and his natural knack for rebounding. I don?t think he will be a superstar either, however, I know he will be a very good player who can help the Knicks out for sure I used to think very highly of Ariza (and I still do), but again, I doubt he will be a superstar in the league though I do know he will be a good player, just like Sweetney. Once Ariza gets a jumper and increases his ball handling, not many players will be able to guard him because of his athleticism, quickness, and those long arms of course. He could put up solid all-around numbers some day and at 19 years old, he still has a lot to learn and the great thing about him is just like Sweetney, he is a natural worker. LeBron is also a long shot and I believe Isiah feels as if he can get him. He?s been setting up his expiring contracts (Houston, Taylor, Anderson) all on 2007 when James becomes a free agent. I?m not getting my hopes up on James because the chances are slim, but that doesn?t mean we can?t get another good player like Josh Howard who is a defensive specialist. Just try not to get your hopes up too high.
<div class="quote_poster">Quoting MrJ:</div><div class="quote_post">To be fair, Elton Brand is more athletic and has a wingspan the size of Yao Ming if outstretched vertically, but Sweetney becoming a double-double machine is definitely not out of the question especially considering his work ethic and his natural knack for rebounding. I don?t think he will be a superstar either, however, I know he will be a very good player who can help the Knicks out for sure I used to think very highly of Ariza (and I still do), but again, I doubt he will be a superstar in the league though I do know he will be a good player, just like Sweetney. Once Ariza gets a jumper and increases his ball handling, not many players will be able to guard him because of his athleticism, quickness, and those long arms of course. He could put up solid all-around numbers some day and at 19 years old, he still has a lot to learn and the great thing about him is just like Sweetney, he is a natural worker. LeBron is also a long shot and I believe Isiah feels as if he can get him. He?s been setting up his expiring contracts (Houston, Taylor, Anderson) all on 2007 when James becomes a free agent. I?m not getting my hopes up on James because the chances are slim, but that doesn?t mean we can?t get another good player like Josh Howard who is a defensive specialist. Just try not to get your hopes up too high. </div> I know what you are saying I was going a little too far saying Sweetney and Ariza will be superstars but I believe they can develop into great players. Ariza is an amazing defender and if he can get his shooting and handeling together he can be a very solid player. As for Lebron coming to NY I believe we have a very good chance because if Lebron comes to NY, Chicago or LA (I think Chicago is his best shot if he wants a title) he will get so much more money guarenteed in endorsements that he will prob be earning 5 times as much in endorsements a year as he does playing. I dont see why he would want to turn that down.
<div class="quote_poster">Quoting Wade03:</div><div class="quote_post">I know what you are saying I was going a little too far saying Sweetney and Ariza will be superstars but I believe they can develop into great players. Ariza is an amazing defender and if he can get his shooting and handeling together he can be a very solid player. As for Lebron coming to NY I believe we have a very good chance because if Lebron comes to NY, Chicago or LA (I think Chicago is his best shot if he wants a title) he will get so much more money guarenteed in endorsements that he will prob be earning 5 times as much in endorsements a year as he does playing. I dont see why he would want to turn that down.</div> Yeah man, they will become great players, maybe even an all-star appearance is in their future, but I don't know if they have perennial 1st team kind of potential. Ariza has all the tools to be a great player especially those athleticism and long arms. LeBron also has the options of L.A. and Chicago. The Bulls have been doing better and their core is so young, and will be around for a long time. L.A. with Kobe and maybe Phil Jackson might be able to get James to sign. And there still is the option of ?doing the right thing? and re-signing with Cleveland. Unless New York gets better and is in a contender position very soon, it?s possible James might not want to come here and rightly so.
I like the trade with the Rockets and the trade with the Lakers....Except I think the Rockets would know that they need an athletic PF next to Yao because currently they have no one at the 4 that could guard athletic bigs, they have Juwan Howard...a Kurt Thomas clone there. The one with the Bulls, I can't give up Ariza to get Noccioni, I don't care about Sweetney he'll never be a player in my opinion, but Ariza has a bright future. My Re-Build: Kurt Thomas to Memphis For Jason Williams this year's first and next year's first (if they'd include it, I don't know that they would.) Sure Jason's contract goes a year past Houston's which is our goal to be under the cap but he will be an expiring that year (along with Malik) and will have trade value. That trade with the Lakers is nice, but consider the pressure for them to win now, make themselves look smart after the Kobe trade. Nobody wants to pay Brian Grant for 2 more years of doing nothing, so I think we could get more out of them...let's say, Brian Grant this year's first and the first aquired in the Shaq trade for Stephon Marbury At this point we have 3 picks this year, 3 picks next year (1st's) and the only players traded would be Kurt and Steph... We can than trade: Lakes 1st (From Heat, 2006 Draft) and Jerome Williams for Kwame Brown We draft Felton at 8 and at 10 Splitter at 30 Turiaf our lineup next year looks like: Edit forgot all aobut the 19th pick. Which we could use on Johan Petro. PG: Felton/Jason Williams SG: Crawford/Ariza/Houston SF: Ariza/Tim Thomas PF: Sweetney/Splitter/Malik/Turiaf C: Kwame/Petro/Splitter/Turiaf I expect Splitter to eventually take Sweetney's job, I also expect Kwame to be a solid player, especially in this fast break offense initiated by Felton. If Jason Williams becomes a problem we can put him on the IR (or buy him out) it doesn't matter much.
<div class="quote_poster">Quote:</div><div class="quote_post">My Re-Build: Kurt Thomas to Memphis For Jason Williams this year's first and next year's first (if they'd include it, I don't know that they would.) Sure Jason's contract goes a year past Houston's which is our goal to be under the cap but he will be an expiring that year (along with Malik) and will have trade value.</div> I don't know if the Grizzlies would do that deal. They've pretty much labeled the #19 pick this year a Center pick. They'll be some great Centers available; Channing Frye, Chris Taft, Andrew Bynum, Andray Blatche, or Johan Petro. They also have Lorenzen Wright, Jake Tsakalidis, and Pau Gasol who plays Center from time to time. Plus, they're going to attempt to resign Swift. I think that when they deal Jason Williams, it will be for a Point Guard. Think about it this way, who would they have as a Point Guard if Williams left? They have Earl Watson, but he's likely leaving through Free Agency. They have Antonio Burks, but he's not even ready for 10-20 mpg. They could draft a Point Guard, but the quality of Point Guards at #19 (Gilchrist, Brown, Ellis, etc.) aren't exactly the kind of Point Guards that you want starting on your team, especially after making it to the playoffs the season before. Besides, the rumor is that a Sam Cassell for Jason Williams trade is all but finished. It was reported on one of the main sports shows (Sportscenter, Best Damn, etc.) the other day. They say that it'll go down as soon as teams can start trading again.
<div class="quote_poster">Quoting Voodoo Child:</div><div class="quote_post">I don't know if the Grizzlies would do that deal. They've pretty much labeled the #19 pick this year a Center pick. They'll be some great Centers available; Channing Frye, Chris Taft, Andrew Bynum, Andray Blatche, or Johan Petro. They also have Lorenzen Wright, Jake Tsakalidis, and Pau Gasol who plays Center from time to time. Plus, they're going to attempt to resign Swift. I think that when they deal Jason Williams, it will be for a Point Guard. Think about it this way, who would they have as a Point Guard if Williams left? They have Earl Watson, but he's likely leaving through Free Agency. They have Antonio Burks, but he's not even ready for 10-20 mpg. They could draft a Point Guard, but the quality of Point Guards at #19 (Gilchrist, Brown, Ellis, etc.) aren't exactly the kind of Point Guards that you want starting on your team, especially after making it to the playoffs the season before. Besides, the rumor is that a Sam Cassell for Jason Williams trade is all but finished. It was reported on one of the main sports shows (Sportscenter, Best Damn, etc.) the other day. They say that it'll go down as soon as teams can start trading again.</div> What I had heard is that they were willing to throw in a 1st in order to deal Williams, anyway my original post forgot the 19th pick. Also I heard rumors of the Cassell deal but didn't know it was so final. Word had it the Grizzlies liked Watson better than Jason Williams anyways, and they could probably get a point guard through free agency for not much money, like a Frank Williams who us Knicks fans know is a very serviceable player. If we don't get the 19th no biggie we could move on with out it.
