interest in this douoble double defensive PF? He has a long contract, and we have ALOT of PF's with ugly contracts, but Kurt is the only guy who earns that money, cause of his consistancy on defense and his mid range shot, and all his entangibles put together Would you accept this trade? Kurt Thomas for Weatherspoon + #24 Rockets PG Sura/Mike James/Ward SG David Wesley/Jon Barry SF Tmac/Padgett PF Kurt Thomas/Howard/Bowen C Yao Ming/Mutumbo/Baker Why for the rockets? It makes life extremely easier for Yao Ming, he doesn't have to step up on defense all the time, Kurt Thomas guards the post better than any player in this league, this will allow Ming to be more productive on offense, and make defense easier for him. along with the fact you finally get a double double guy at defense, who's a very good shooting, adding to your half court offense this team is trying to build on. Downside is your team lacks athlesim, and Kurt Thomas has like a 2 inch vertical leap, lol but some HOW he still averages a steal and a block a game. Knicks Marbury Houston/Crawford Tim Thomas/Ariza Jerome Williams/Rose/Taylor/Weatherspoon Sweetney/Butler Why for the Knicks? We've been trying to trade Kurt Thomas since he got here, we need as many expiring contracts as possible, no matter how terrible weatherspoon is, this is for cap relief and the 24th pick.
Kurt Thomas has been a rumored player for the Rockets for a long time now. He is a Van Gundy player, and a good rebounding power forward. I don't know much about trading for him though. Weatherspoon by himself is probably worth more than Thomas. A team needing the salary cap relief would probably be glad to trade a few second round picks for him, like the Knicks. The 24th pick could land us a better prospect than Thomas. Also, the Mo Taylor trade was made to clear cap space, so I doubt the Rockets would want to take on another long and big contract, especially when we'll be trading away an expiring one. Thomas won't be much of an upgrade over Howard.
I like Thomas but we need youth on this team...I would be much happier drafting Turiaf or Simien then trading for Thomas...and I think we would be looking for some backup PF insurance because I like what Howard can do for us, if he's healthy...
<div class="quote_poster">Quoting j0se:</div><div class="quote_post">interest in this douoble double defensive PF? He has a long contract, and we have ALOT of PF's with ugly contracts, but Kurt is the only guy who earns that money, cause of his consistancy on defense and his mid range shot, and all his entangibles put together Would you accept this trade? Kurt Thomas for Weatherspoon + #24 Rockets PG Sura/Mike James/Ward SG David Wesley/Jon Barry SF Tmac/Padgett PF Kurt Thomas/Howard/Bowen C Yao Ming/Mutumbo/Baker Why for the rockets? It makes life extremely easier for Yao Ming, he doesn't have to step up on defense all the time, Kurt Thomas guards the post better than any player in this league, this will allow Ming to be more productive on offense, and make defense easier for him. along with the fact you finally get a double double guy at defense, who's a very good shooting, adding to your half court offense this team is trying to build on. Downside is your team lacks athlesim, and Kurt Thomas has like a 2 inch vertical leap, lol but some HOW he still averages a steal and a block a game. Knicks Marbury Houston/Crawford Tim Thomas/Ariza Jerome Williams/Rose/Taylor/Weatherspoon Sweetney/Butler Why for the Knicks? We've been trying to trade Kurt Thomas since he got here, we need as many expiring contracts as possible, no matter how terrible weatherspoon is, this is for cap relief and the 24th pick.</div> This is exactly what I feared people would start thinkin. It like some people haven't even watched one single Rockets game this season, cuz if they had, they would know that we don't need anybody who is UNDERSIZED and UNATHLETIC. Right now, we have nobody outside of Tmac and maybe Yao who plays above the rim and can finish at the basket. I thought this was obvious against the Mavericks, but maybe not. Kurt Thomas would be a nice pick up for the Rockets, yeah if we moved to the EASTERN CONFERENCE. But unfortunatley, we're in Western Conference where the talent level at PF is just a LITTLE BETTER. So I would recommend for Jeff Van Gundy, and the Rocket Organization, to get YOUNGER and QUICKER. Not OLDER and SLOWER. By getting Kurt Thomas, I don't even see us getting to game 7 to get blown out by 40. Not a good move.
<div class="quote_poster">Quoting Trip:</div><div class="quote_post">Kurt Thomas has been a rumored player for the Rockets for a long time now. He is a Van Gundy player, and a good rebounding power forward. I don't know much about trading for him though. Weatherspoon by himself is probably worth more than Thomas. A team needing the salary cap relief would probably be glad to trade a few second round picks for him, like the Knicks. </div> Kurt is a great player, and Van Gundy's type of guy, as you mentioned. Weatherspoon's expiring contract wouldn't help the Knicks much, Trip. We're in salary cap hell for a long time, immediate relief wouldn't make a dent. The Knicks wouldn't even consider trading for Weatherspoon, we traded him to you guys in the first place. He has no value to us, the relief would probably be substantial for most teams, but to our cap it's not much at all. We'll be over the cap for many years. <div class="quote_poster">Quoting Trip:</div><div class="quote_post"> The 24th pick could land us a better prospect than Thomas</div> I highly doubt that. Kurt is an efficient and pretty consistent (not extremely, but pretty consistent) player - and he's consistently good. He can play shut-down defense, too. He never really does have a bad defensive night, at worst one in six/seven games he'll give an average-mediocre defensive effort. He was 6th in the league in RPG (10.4), and 4th in the league in total rebounds (831). He had 32 double-double's last year as well. All the while, (as I said earlier) he was an outstanding defender. It'd be pretty hard to get that kind of player at 24 this year. <div class="quote_poster">Quoting Trip:</div><div class="quote_post"> Also, the Mo Taylor trade was made to clear cap space, so I doubt the Rockets would want to take on another long and big contract, especially when we'll be trading away an expiring one.</div> Agreed. I don't see a KT to Houston trade happening either. <div class="quote_poster">Quoting Trip:</div><div class="quote_post">Thomas won't be much of an upgrade over Howard.</div> I disagree. Juwan may offer more points, he can score very effectively, but I feel you're underrating Kurt. Kurt's defense is really pretty excellent, he is great at providing help and rotating on defense - he's not the best blocker, but he's a very pesky defender to 4's and 5's. Kurt takes hits on defense, and he is constantly awake and watching closely (he's also great at positioning himself) - never really a spectator. Kurt may only have averaged 11.5 PPG last year, but he still gets his way on the boards much of the time and he's a strong defensive player. Juwan isn't an agressive player at all, he's not much of a defender, either. Juwan rarely blocks a shot, and he never really gets down and dirty on the defensive end. I mean, he averaged .08 BPG last year - even with only 26 MPG, that's really awful. He had a total of 5 blocks in 1,624 minutes! Kurt averages one block over the course of 36 or so minutes. Howard averaged one block over the course of 324.8 minutes last season! You could try to make an argument stating that Yao accounts for a lot of blocks, he averages one in every 12 or so minutes - but does that mean Howard can slack off in contesting shots? It shouldn't mean that, it really shouldn't. And it really isn't just Yao taking all the blocks - Howard was horrible in his last year in Orlando in that category as well, that year (03-04) he still only averaged one block for every 130+ minutes. He averaged (04-05) one rebound every 4.5+ minutes, while Thomas averaged (04-05) one board every 3.4 or so minutes. Let's assume they both play approximately 35 MPG, Howard would average 7.7 rebounds and Kurt would average 10.2 rebounds. If you want to try make the Yao taking the stats (in this case, rebounds) argument again, I can match it. In his last year in Orlando, he averaged one rebound in every 5.4 minutes - even worse than last year (04-05) in Houston. Howard may score more, but his defense and rebounding aren't nearly as good as Kurt's. At best Howard is your [Houston's] 3rd option, Kurt would probably be somewhere around there too. Kurt would benefit from the likes of McGrady and Yao, just as he did from the additions of Crawford and Marbur in New York - two players that attract attention from the opposing defense. McGrady and Yao demand a lot of defensive attention, there's no doubt in my mind that Kurt would feed off of that - especially when Yao is in the paint on offense, Kurt could step out a bit (like he normally does - he's a shooting power forward) and take his baby jumper. He would probably score around 13-15+ PPG, if I had to guess. Without question I feel that Kurt Thomas is a more valuable player than Juwan Howard. ____ <div class="quote_poster">Quoting rockfan06:</div><div class="quote_post">This is exactly what I feared people would start thinkin. It like some people haven't even watched one single Rockets game this season, cuz if they had, they would know that we don't need anybody who is UNDERSIZED and UNATHLETIC. Right now, we have nobody outside of Tmac and maybe Yao who plays above the rim and can finish at the basket. I thought this was obvious against the Mavericks, but maybe not. Kurt Thomas would be a nice pick up for the Rockets, yeah if we moved to the EASTERN CONFERENCE. But unfortunatley, we're in Western Conference where the talent level at PF is just a LITTLE BETTER. So I would recommend for Jeff Van Gundy, and the Rocket Organization, to get YOUNGER and QUICKER. Not OLDER and SLOWER. By getting Kurt Thomas, I don't even see us getting to game 7 to get blown out by 40. Not a good move.</div> Kurt may not be the tallest and strongest of PF's, but it seems like you haven't watched him all that much. He doesn't let his lack of athleticism get in the way, he does his job nonetheless. He scores from further out than most PF's and has nearly perfect timing on his jumper. He is great at positioning himself for rebounds, he averaged 10.4 last season, despite his size. I don't see the angle that Howard was much better - when in Orlando his rebounding and block numbers were still poor, worse than Kurt's. Kurt finds ways to score, and he can attract attention from 4's and 5's when he's on offense and hitting his jumper, giving Yao more room. Works the same way if Yao's really scoring inside (he'd be covered more closely and meticulously), he can get the ball to Kurt for a jumper. Kurt's game would improve in Houston, more than likely to such an extent that it would probably completely cancel out the argument that the talent and quality crop of PF's in the West is greater than in the East.
<div class="quote_poster">Quoting Knicks Analyst:</div><div class="quote_post">Kurt is a great player, and Van Gundy's type of guy, as you mentioned. Weatherspoon's expiring contract wouldn't help the Knicks much, Trip. We're in salary cap hell for a long time, immediate relief wouldn't make a dent. The Knicks wouldn't even consider trading for Weatherspoon, we traded him to you guys in the first place. He has no value to us, the relief would probably be substantial for most teams, but to our cap it's not much at all. We'll be over the cap for many years.</div>You might have misunderstood me here. I said a team like the Knicks would trade second rounders for Weatherspoon, but not the Knicks. I know as well that New York getting about $6 million in cap relief from Weatherspoon's contract won't mean much anyways. They will need to unload maybe 7 times that number to be under the cap. Weatherspoon's contract might not interest the Knicks, but it will interest other clubs. Btw, you don't need to bold the words. Anyone can tell that the Knicks are screwed cap-wise without you stuffing it in his face. <div class="quote_poster">Quote:</div><div class="quote_post">I highly doubt that. Kurt is an efficient and pretty consistent (not extremely, but pretty consistent) player - and he's consistently good. He can play shut-down defense, too. He never really does have a bad defensive night, at worst one in six/seven games he'll give an average-mediocre defensive effort. He was 6th in the league in RPG (10.4), and 4th in the league in total rebounds (831). He had 32 double-double's last year as well. All the while, (as I said earlier) he was an outstanding defender. It'd be pretty hard to get that kind of player at 24 this year.</div>I would say that Ronny Turiaf, Wayne Simien and Ike Diogu would be better than Kurt Thomas in their careers. Rockets either get now with Thomas or a bit of both now and future with whichever senior four they draft at 24. Thomas might be productive for two more years, after which he becomes another Weatherspoon. No thanks. <div class="quote_poster">Quote:</div><div class="quote_post">Agreed. I don't see a KT to Houston trade happening either.</div>Good to see we agree on something. <div class="quote_poster">Quote:</div><div class="quote_post">I disagree. Juwan may offer more points, he can score very effectively, but I feel you're underrating Kurt. Kurt's defense is really pretty excellent, he is great at providing help and rotating on defense - he's not the best blocker, but he's a very pesky defender to 4's and 5's. Kurt takes hits on defense, and he is constantly awake and watching closely (he's also great at positioning himself) - never really a spectator. Kurt may only have averaged 11.5 PPG last year, but he still gets his way on the boards much of the time and he's a strong defensive player. Juwan isn't an agressive player at all, he's not much of a defender, either. Juwan rarely blocks a shot, and he never really gets down and dirty on the defensive end. I mean, he averaged .08 BPG last year - even with only 26 MPG, that's really awful. He had a total of 5 blocks in 1,624 minutes! Kurt averages one block over the course of 36 or so minutes. Howard averaged one block over the course of 324.8 minutes last season! You could try to make an argument stating that Yao accounts for a lot of blocks, he averages one in every 12 or so minutes - but does that mean Howard can slack off in contesting shots? It shouldn't mean that, it really shouldn't. And it really isn't just Yao taking all the blocks - Howard was horrible in his last year in Orlando in that category as well, that year (03-04) he still only averaged one block for every 130+ minutes. He averaged (04-05) one rebound every 4.5+ minutes, while Thomas averaged (04-05) one board every 3.4 or so minutes. Let's assume they both play approximately 35 MPG, Howard would average 7.7 rebounds and Kurt would average 10.2 rebounds. If you want to try make the Yao taking the stats (in this case, rebounds) argument again, I can match it. In his last year in Orlando, he averaged one rebound in every 5.4 minutes - even worse than last year (04-05) in Houston. Howard may score more, but his defense and rebounding aren't nearly as good as Kurt's. At best Howard is your [Houston's] 3rd option, Kurt would probably be somewhere around there too. Kurt would benefit from the likes of McGrady and Yao, just as he did from the additions of Crawford and Marbur in New York - two players that attract attention from the opposing defense. McGrady and Yao demand a lot of defensive attention, there's no doubt in my mind that Kurt would feed off of that - especially when Yao is in the paint on offense, Kurt could step out a bit (like he normally does - he's a shooting power forward) and take his baby jumper. He would probably score around 13-15+ PPG, if I had to guess. Without question I feel that Kurt Thomas is a more valuable player than Juwan Howard.</div>You would be underestimating Howard's defense as well. The past season, his stats might not show it, but Howard did a good job defensively and the consensus was that he would have helped the Rockets in the playoffs if he'd been available to guard Nowitzki. Van Gundy makes the most out of everyone defensively, and Howard has been an example of that this past season. Howard's block shot numbers are low, yes, but you have to understand why. Yao gets all the blocks (and the fouls), because it is him who is the help-side defender. The guy who comes over when penetration occurs. Howard, meanwhile, is always sticking to the opposing four and never leaving. As you'd know, the West has very good power forwards and leaving them for the block would leave the fours open for a mid range jump shot. If Thomas comes over to Houston and starts alongside Yao, I won't expect him to average as many blocks as he did in New York. Thomas is a better player than Howard, but I think that he won't do much more than Howard is doing with the Rockets.
<div class="quote_poster">Quoting Trip:</div><div class="quote_post">You might have misunderstood me here. I said a team like the Knicks would trade second rounders for Weatherspoon, but not the Knicks. I know as well that New York getting about $6 million in cap relief from Weatherspoon's contract won't mean much anyways. They will need to unload maybe 7 times that number to be under the cap. Weatherspoon's contract might not interest the Knicks, but it will interest other clubs.</div> I found you to be unclear, I guess. <div class="quote_poster">Quote:</div><div class="quote_post"> Btw, you don't need to bold the words. Anyone can tell that the Knicks are screwed cap-wise without you stuffing it in his face.</div> Your original post didn't express much of an understanding from my reading. Also, I really do not see us trading any 2nd round picks for Weatherspoon, not at all. <div class="quote_poster">Quote:</div><div class="quote_post"> I would say that Ronny Turiaf, Wayne Simien and Ike Diogu would be better than Kurt Thomas in their careers. Rockets either get now with Thomas or a bit of both now and future with whichever senior four they draft at 24. Thomas might be productive for two more years, after which he becomes another Weatherspoon. No thanks. </div> Turiaf and Simien - better than KT? I don't see it, I don't see either of them in that area. Simien has a better chance than Turiaf, but only if he has plenty of years in which he exhibits great consitency with solid stats. KT's career stats may not be off the charts, but in his last few years with good minutes, he's simply performed at a good level - no question. KT is one of the league's most underrated players, and probably the most underrated defender. Thomas after two years another Weatherspoon? I highly doubt he'd be that awful. After two years, he'd have one left - a solid trading piece with that contract. <div class="quote_poster">Quote:</div><div class="quote_post"> You would be underestimating Howard's defense as well. The past season, his stats might not show it, but Howard did a good job defensively and the consensus was that he would have helped the Rockets in the playoffs if he'd been available to guard Nowitzki. Van Gundy makes the most out of everyone defensively, and Howard has been an example of that this past season.</div> Everytime I've seen Howard play he appeared to be a weak defender, not really willing to go all-out. If you say Howard's defense improved so dramatically under JVG, then wouldn't KT's already sensational defense become insanely great? He was with Lenny and Herb this past year, neither focused on defense at all, yet KT was great. JVG would turn him into a powerhouse defender - how is that not better for Houston than what they have now with the injury-prone Howard? <div class="quote_poster">Quote:</div><div class="quote_post"> Howard's block shot numbers are low, yes, but you have to understand why. Yao gets all the blocks (and the fouls), because it is him who is the help-side defender. The guy who comes over when penetration occurs. Howard, meanwhile, is always sticking to the opposing four and never leaving. As you'd know, the West has very good power forwards and leaving them for the block would leave the fours open for a mid range jump shot. If Thomas comes over to Houston and starts alongside Yao, I won't expect him to average as many blocks as he did in New York.</div> I already attacked the argument that Yao gets all the blocks. Look at the stats I posted concerning his last year in Orlando - still poor. Thomas would probably get more than one block every 324 or so minutes, that's just horrid. As I said with statistical support, Howard was still a poor rebounder/blocker in Orlando - so using Yao for your argument is worthless, I made the argument against that before you even made the argument. <div class="quote_poster">Quote:</div><div class="quote_post"> Thomas is a better player than Howard, but I think that he won't do much more than Howard is doing with the Rockets.</div> He's a much better player, and he would only improve in Houston under Van Gundy and with Yao and McGrady. Your arguments are all beat by Howards poor blocking and rebounding stats on his track record - including the years in Orlando. Kurt has gotten better and better these past few years, Howards been gettiung worse and worse.
<div class="quote_poster">Quoting Knicks Analyst:</div><div class="quote_post"> Turiaf and Simien - better than KT? I don't see it, I don't see either of them in that area. Simien has a better chance than Turiaf, but only if he has plenty of years in which he exhibits great consitency with solid stats. KT's career stats may not be off the charts, but in his last few years with good minutes, he's simply performed at a good level - no question. KT is one of the league's most underrated players, and probably the most underrated defender.</div>Kurt Thomas has a 11/8 career average. His best year was 14/9. I would tend to think that at least one of Turiaf, Simien and Diogu would eclipse those numbers. <div class="quote_poster">Quote:</div><div class="quote_post">Thomas after two years another Weatherspoon? I highly doubt he'd be that awful. After two years, he'd have one left - a solid trading piece with that contract.</div>Thomas will be 34 when the 2005-06 season starts. Two years from now, he'd be nearly 36. Would he still have a year in him? Maybe, but he certainly won't be anything near what he is now. His peak years are behind him, and he can only go down from here. <div class="quote_poster">Quote:</div><div class="quote_post">Everytime I've seen Howard play he appeared to be a weak defender, not really willing to go all-out. If you say Howard's defense improved so dramatically under JVG, then wouldn't KT's already sensational defense become insanely great? He was with Lenny and Herb this past year, neither focused on defense at all, yet KT was great. JVG would turn him into a powerhouse defender - how is that not better for Houston than what they have now with the injury-prone Howard? </div>How good was Thomas's defense when he was under Van Gundy? Saying Howard is injury-prone is just stupid. Last season was the first time he'd missed 20 games in six seasons. <div class="quote_poster">Quote:</div><div class="quote_post">I already attacked the argument that Yao gets all the blocks. Look at the stats I posted concerning his last year in Orlando - still poor. Thomas would probably get more than one block every 324 or so minutes, that's just horrid. As I said with statistical support, Howard was still a poor rebounder/blocker in Orlando - so using Yao for your argument is worthless, I made the argument against that before you even made the argument.</div>It doesn't matter whether you attack it or not. Just because you don't agree doesn't mean it's not true. Ask any Rockets fan and they'd tell you that Yao does get all the blocks and rebounds. Although Howard isn't a good shotblocker, I'm sure that he'd do better if he's playing Yao's role. <div class="quote_poster">Quote:</div><div class="quote_post">He's a much better player, and he would only improve in Houston under Van Gundy and with Yao and McGrady. Your arguments are all beat by Howards poor blocking and rebounding stats on his track record - including the years in Orlando. Kurt has gotten better and better these past few years, Howards been gettiung worse and worse.</div>Howard spent just a year in Orlando, and if you'd like to talk track record, then he is a better scorer than Thomas. Defensively and rebounding-wise, he's never been outstanding, but he's still good for 8 a game if given the minutes. Both him and Thomas are good mid-range shooters, but Howard, from what I've seen of Thomas, has a better post up game and can score in a bigger variety of ways. I'd like to ask you a question: how good of a help-side defender and shotblocker is Thomas? That's the main thing I think the Rockets should look for in drafting a power forward.
<div class="quote_poster">Quoting Rockfan06:</div><div class="quote_post">This is exactly what I feared people would start thinkin. It like some people haven't even watched one single Rockets game this season, cuz if they had, they would know that we don't need anybody who is UNDERSIZED and UNATHLETIC. </div> I would think that you guys would be salivating over the proposition of a tough, grinding presence next to Yao. Even when healthy, Howard isn't going to be that guy. Thomas is undersized, and he's not that athletic, but he's tough, he's a rugged, defensive, rebounder, an accountable veteran presence and a winning type player. A leader. I think he'd help the Rockets quite a bit, and to get a guy like him who can help you guys win right now seems like a pretty good trade off for a late round pick and some salary cap space. The Rockets have an image of two superstars surrounded by a bunch of gritty, hard working guys, and I don't see why you wouldn't want to add another one...
<div class="quote_poster">Quote:</div><div class="quote_post">Kurt Thomas has a 11/8 career average. His best year was 14/9. I would tend to think that at least one of Turiaf, Simien and Diogu would eclipse those numbers.</div> I doubt it. Again, you don't give Kurt enough credit on defense, he's so underrated and you're one of those who appears to be underrating him even now. The only way I see one of the guys you listed surpassing Kurt statistically is if they somehow end up on a team (maybe via trade, or something) where they'd be the 2nd option - I doubt that will happen. To say you think you'll find something better in the draft is hard, in the draft there are no sure-things - the odds are against Houston drafting someone who will be as good as, or better than Kurt in his career. <div class="quote_poster">Quote:</div><div class="quote_post">Thomas will be 34 when the 2005-06 season starts. Two years from now, he'd be nearly 36. Would he still have a year in him? Maybe, but he certainly won't be anything near what he is now. His peak years are behind him, and he can only go down from here.</div> He will be around 36 in the 07-08 season, but that's his last year under contract - he'd be some solid trade bait, as I said. Also, if you want to argue that his best years are behind him, I can. There were people who said after the 03-04 season Kurt's best years were behind him - look what he did. He turned himself into a great defender and a double-double threat night-in and night-out. You can't be 100% sure he won't improve, when you can be pretty darn sure that Howard will get worse. He's gotten worse and worse these past few years statistically. <div class="quote_poster">Quote:</div><div class="quote_post"> How good was Thomas's defense when he was under Van Gundy?</div> He was...solid. But he improved very much from 02-03 to 03-04, I don't see why he wouldn't dramatically improve again, this time under JVG. What's your argument for when you said that Howard improved under JVG, and then I replied that KT would improve dramatically as well - making him great. Do you not think that KT would become a sensational defender under JVG, one significantly better than Howard?! <div class="quote_poster">Quote:</div><div class="quote_post"> Saying Howard is injury-prone is just stupid. Last season was the first time he'd missed 20 games in six seasons.</div>Last 6 seasons? Bleh. I meant to say weak. He doesn't play aggresively, he doesn't come with any intensity. I used the wrong phrase. These last few years he's held up. I was mixing up his early days with his recent years, that's how bad his injuries were at points in his career. <div class="quote_poster">Quote:</div><div class="quote_post">It doesn't matter whether you attack it or not. Just because you don't agree doesn't mean it's not true. Ask any Rockets fan and they'd tell you that Yao does get all the blocks and rebounds. Although Howard isn't a good shotblocker, I'm sure that he'd do better if he's playing Yao's role.</div> Again, I ask you to look at his numbers in Orlando. He was still an awful shotblocker in Orlando, he's simply a horrible shot blocker. I really disagree, I don't think he'd get many blocks if he had Yao's role. Don't forget, he only averaged .27 BPG in the 03-04 season, that's 22 for the whole year and one block every 130 or so minutes. He's just bad at that aspect of the game. Kurt averaged .99 BPG last year, with one block every 36 or so minutes. His rebounding numbers per game have improved with Houston (note the 10 less MPG he's had in Houston), he averages around 7 RPG, and Kurt averages about 10. That's a significant difference. <div class="quote_poster">Quote:</div><div class="quote_post">Howard spent just a year in Orlando, and if you'd like to talk track record, then he is a better scorer than Thomas. Defensively and rebounding-wise, he's never been outstanding, but he's still good for 8 a game if given the minutes. Both him and Thomas are good mid-range shooters, but Howard, from what I've seen of Thomas, has a better post up game and can score in a bigger variety of ways.</div> He's never been even good on the boards or on defense, never mind "not outstanding". If given the minutes, Kurt could get 13 or 14 - but they usually aren't given the minutes. At most, Howard will get these days is about 30-33, and in that time he averages about 7.5 - Kurt in that same time averages about 10.5 . <div class="quote_poster">Quote:</div><div class="quote_post"> I'd like to ask you a question: how good of a help-side defender and shotblocker is Thomas? That's the main thing I think the Rockets should look for in drafting a power forward. </div> Help-side defender? Strong, he offers good help and often. Though he isn't sensational at help-side defense (he can improve his help-defense), with how much better a defender JVG made Howard (according to what you said earlier), I'm sure KT could become an amazing help-side defender. KT only averaged .99 BPG last year, which is better than Howard did at blocking in every single season of his career. He's not a block machine - but he's an ok shot-blocker.
<div class="quote_poster">Quoting trip:</div><div class="quote_post">Kurt Thomas has a 11/8 career average. His best year was 14/9. I would tend to think that at least one of Turiaf, Simien and Diogu would eclipse those numbers.</div> Maybe one of them will eventually get to those averages. Maybe. But the chances of one of them not only getting to those averages but being the defensive force that Kurt is? Remember any guy with upside you draft at 24 is a question mark. No sure thing. If they were a sure 14/9 player they would certainly go higher. With Kurt you get guaranteed 11/8 player or there about. Also he helps alleviate pressure from Yao defensivly. If you want to say that you will get many more years out of the three possible draftees obviously you would be right but in the immediate future (2-3 years) they have the chance to win a title with a Yao and TMac base so if Kurt could come in and be one of the final pieces on the team why wouldnt you bring him in instead of unproven rookies? <div class="quote_poster">Quote:</div><div class="quote_post">Thomas will be 34 when the 2005-06 season starts. Two years from now, he'd be nearly 36. Would he still have a year in him? Maybe, but he certainly won't be anything near what he is now. His peak years are behind him, and he can only go down from here.</div> KA made a good point that because of the cap restrictions in the last year of his contract Thomas valuable on the trade market for his expiring contract so not having more years out of him is a negligible point. <div class="quote_poster">Quote:</div><div class="quote_post">It doesn't matter whether you attack it or not. Just because you don't agree doesn't mean it's not true. Ask any Rockets fan and they'd tell you that Yao does get all the blocks and rebounds. Although Howard isn't a good shotblocker, I'm sure that he'd do better if he's playing Yao's role.</div> Cmon, you can't even compare Howard and Kurt defensivly, they are in different classes. Howard hasnt been considered a real defensive stopper since his days at michigan.
<div class="quote_poster">Quoting Knicks Analyst:</div><div class="quote_post">I doubt it. Again, you don't give Kurt enough credit on defense, he's so underrated and you're one of those who appears to be underrating him even now. The only way I see one of the guys you listed surpassing Kurt statistically is if they somehow end up on a team (maybe via trade, or something) where they'd be the 2nd option - I doubt that will happen. To say you think you'll find something better in the draft is hard, in the draft there are no sure-things - the odds are against Houston drafting someone who will be as good as, or better than Kurt in his career.</div>I'm not saying that the guys I mentioned will be averaging better than Thomas's numbers right off the bat in their rookie season, but rather that they will do better than Thomas in their career. Look at Turiaf's body and his already impressive skillset and it won't be hard to imagine him being at least a 15/10 player. Look at Simien and it's the same thing, except he'd be more like a Corliss Williamson due to his lack of height. <div class="quote_poster">Quote:</div><div class="quote_post">He will be around 36 in the 07-08 season, but that's his last year under contract - he'd be some solid trade bait, as I said. Also, if you want to argue that his best years are behind him, I can. There were people who said after the 03-04 season Kurt's best years were behind him - look what he did. He turned himself into a great defender and a double-double threat night-in and night-out. You can't be 100% sure he won't improve, when you can be pretty darn sure that Howard will get worse. He's gotten worse and worse these past few years statistically.</div>Weatherspoon right now is that trade bait you're talking about. He will be a valuable commodity come trade deadline and I just don't see why Houston would take on a large contract when the point of shipping Mo Taylor last season was to get rid of one. <div class="quote_poster">Quote:</div><div class="quote_post">He was...solid. But he improved very much from 02-03 to 03-04, I don't see why he wouldn't dramatically improve again, this time under JVG. What's your argument for when you said that Howard improved under JVG, and then I replied that KT would improve dramatically as well - making him great. Do you not think that KT would become a sensational defender under JVG, one significantly better than Howard?!</div>Rarely do you see a player who's 35 improve drastically in any aspect of the game. That's my reason. If Thomas was 25, then I'd take him in a heartbeat. <div class="quote_poster">Quote:</div><div class="quote_post">Again, I ask you to look at his numbers in Orlando. He was still an awful shotblocker in Orlando, he's simply a horrible shot blocker. I really disagree, I don't think he'd get many blocks if he had Yao's role. Don't forget, he only averaged .27 BPG in the 03-04 season, that's 22 for the whole year and one block every 130 or so minutes. He's just bad at that aspect of the game. Kurt averaged .99 BPG last year, with one block every 36 or so minutes. His rebounding numbers per game have improved with Houston (note the 10 less MPG he's had in Houston), he averages around 7 RPG, and Kurt averages about 10. That's a significant difference.</div>Significant it is, but as I've always said, Yao is the one taking those from Howard. Sure, he might not be getting 10 without Yao anyways, but surely he'll do better than 7. <div class="quote_poster">Quote:</div><div class="quote_post">Help-side defender? Strong, he offers good help and often. Though he isn't sensational at help-side defense (he can improve his help-defense), with how much better a defender JVG made Howard (according to what you said earlier), I'm sure KT could become an amazing help-side defender. KT only averaged .99 BPG last year, which is better than Howard did at blocking in every single season of his career. He's not a block machine - but he's an ok shot-blocker.</div>Okay, thanks for that. What about his foot speed? Last thing I want to see is a power forward beat by the opponent and then Yao has to come over to help and pick up the blocking foul.
both players appear to be quite similar...with the exception that, what Thomas gives you defensively, Howard makes up for offensively...but at the end of the day, they'll both give you the same numbers, around 11 points and 8 boards a game...they're both similar offensively in that they prefer shooting jumpers 15-18 feet away from the basket...it doesnt make sense to trade for Thomas when Howard puts up, relatively, the same numbers...Howard is a nice veteran at the 4 spot; someone who you can rely upon and who will give you max effort...same goes towards Thomas...therefore, if we're going to make changes at the 4 spot, I prefer that we go with youth and potential, since we have many veteran 4s on our roster-Howard, Weatherspoon, Bowen and Baker...
<div class="quote_poster">Quoting Trip:</div><div class="quote_post">I'm not saying that the guys I mentioned will be averaging better than Thomas's numbers right off the bat in their rookie season, but rather that they will do better than Thomas in their career. Look at Turiaf's body and his already impressive skillset and it won't be hard to imagine him being at least a 15/10 player. Look at Simien and it's the same thing, except he'd be more like a Corliss Williamson due to his lack of height.</div> Well, that's the way you feel, and I don't look to change what you're fixed on. I, personally, don't see it the same way. I think that KT is special in that his defense is outstanding, he's the team's prime defender and he's improved his defense year after year. <div class="quote_poster">Quote:</div><div class="quote_post"> Weatherspoon right now is that trade bait you're talking about. He will be a valuable commodity come trade deadline and I just don't see why Houston would take on a large contract when the point of shipping Mo Taylor last season was to get rid of one.</div> I'm not giving Houston reasons to take Kurt, I don't think they will (as I said earlier). I'm simply saying that he will probably give you two solid-good seasons and then in his third year cap relief or trade bait. I said before, I don't think they will trade for him. I'm just saying that Kurt has value in his third year - either for relief or trades, not that Houston will even need either of those assets. <div class="quote_poster">Quote:</div><div class="quote_post"> Rarely do you see a player who's 35 improve drastically in any aspect of the game. That's my reason. If Thomas was 25, then I'd take him in a heartbeat.</div> You rarely see a guy whos 33 or 34 improve drastically in any aspect of the game - but Thomas did. There is a chance that Kurt will be better next year than he was in 04-05, and there's a chance that he won't be as good a player. I'd say a 51 to 49 chance he improves, since he has these past three years. But Juwan has gotten worse over the course of these past three years, and I don't see that suddenly changing. <div class="quote_poster">Quote:</div><div class="quote_post"> Significant it is, but as I've always said, Yao is the one taking those from Howard. Sure, he might not be getting 10 without Yao anyways, but surely he'll do better than 7. </div> He never averaged more than 8.4 RPG in a season for his career, and he hasn't averaged 8+ RPG in any of the past six seasons. <div class="quote_poster">Quote:</div><div class="quote_post"> Okay, thanks for that. What about his foot speed? Last thing I want to see is a power forward beat by the opponent and then Yao has to come over to help and pick up the blocking foul.</div> Well, I wouldn't call him fast in that sense. Kurt can keep up with guys, he positions himself beautifully, he doesn't get beat much at all. He sticks to his guys pretty closely. The main knock on his defense is his less than great timing his jump and block attempts. He sticks to a guy nicely, but his timing is off once or twice in a game which could result directly in one foul or maybe even a bucket for the defender. It's not a big flaw, it doesn't even stand out unless you're looking for some sort of a flaw in his defense. He can stay by guys, and he can take some muscle really well - he sticks in there and stays with guys very well. If anything at all, one would worry aboout his timing in contesting shots.
<div class="quote_poster">Quoting Trip:</div><div class="quote_post">I'm not saying that the guys I mentioned will be averaging better than Thomas's numbers right off the bat in their rookie season, but rather that they will do better than Thomas in their career. Look at Turiaf's body and his already impressive skillset and it won't be hard to imagine him being at least a 15/10 player. Look at Simien and it's the same thing, except he'd be more like a Corliss Williamson due to his lack of height.</div> I beg to differ with your assessment of Turiaf. If he can eventually put up those type of numbers in a draft that lacks big men, why is he projected to go in the late to early second round? In fact, NBADraft.com has him ranked all the way at #46! It?s not like he?s undersized or anything either; at 6?10 (maybe 6?11 with shoes on) he is perfectly fine for both center and power forward. I?ve also heard that he?s had a couple of bad workouts. You can?t say anything on a player who has yet to enter the league ? especially considering these players are projected late in the first round. Saying someone like Andrew Bogut is more reasonable but an undersized player. Wayne Simien is an undersized player who mostly overpowered his opposition in college. This will not necessarily translate into the NBA so before you make such bold statement, at least watch him before you say he will eclipse 14/9. In addition, he?s been pretty injury prone in college and isn?t a great shot-blocker despite being a beast. Kurt Thomas would give the Rockets defensive toughness an excellent rebounder to help Yao out, and an experienced veteran who has seen the highs and lows of the NBA. With McGrady and Yao, the Rockets probably want to win right away and Thomas would help them with that. He?s a very adept low post defender and should keep the big men of the West out of the paint with his midrange game. It?s hard to say Kurt Thomas is declining because his game has gotten better and better although he?s getting older. With Kurt Thomas, the would Rockets get a solid consistant double-double guy who knows his role.
Just as I had expected, Knicks fans do "stick together like cheap rice". <div class="quote_poster">Quoting Knicks Analyst:</div><div class="quote_post"> You rarely see a guy whos 33 or 34 improve drastically in any aspect of the game - but Thomas did. There is a chance that Kurt will be better next year than he was in 04-05, and there's a chance that he won't be as good a player. I'd say a 51 to 49 chance he improves, since he has these past three years. But Juwan has gotten worse over the course of these past three years, and I don't see that suddenly changing.</div>Statistically, yeah, but Howard I feel has improved a lot from what I saw of him in Orlando. He is flourishing in the comfort of not being counted upon to score big points and has focused on doing little things like going after offensive rebounds, playing defense and hitting open jumpshots. He doesn't have to create for himself in Houston, and that's why his stats are lower than throughout his whole career, but Howard is still a dependable power forward who gives 100% night in night out. <div class="quote_poster">Quote:</div><div class="quote_post"> Well, I wouldn't call him fast in that sense. Kurt can keep up with guys, he positions himself beautifully, he doesn't get beat much at all. He sticks to his guys pretty closely. The main knock on his defense is his less than great timing his jump and block attempts. He sticks to a guy nicely, but his timing is off once or twice in a game which could result directly in one foul or maybe even a bucket for the defender. It's not a big flaw, it doesn't even stand out unless you're looking for some sort of a flaw in his defense. He can stay by guys, and he can take some muscle really well - he sticks in there and stays with guys very well. If anything at all, one would worry aboout his timing in contesting shots.</div>You're making him sound like the DPOY in saying that his defense is almost flawless. Reality is that Kurt Thomas received just one vote for NBA All-Defensive Second Team. Underrated by the fans as usual, you might say, but this voting is done by the coaches of NBA teams, who have all coached against Thomas. Surely you don't know something they don't? <div class="quote_poster">Quoting MrJ:</div><div class="quote_post"> I beg to differ with your assessment of Turiaf. If he can eventually put up those type of numbers in a draft that lacks big men, why is he projected to go in the late to early second round? In fact, NBADraft.com has him ranked all the way at #46! It?s not like he?s undersized or anything either; at 6?10 (maybe 6?11 with shoes on) he is perfectly fine for both center and power forward. I?ve also heard that he?s had a couple of bad workouts.</div>Where you get drafted doesn't mean anything. Ben Wallace was undrafted, look where he is now. The Knicks drafted Ariza at 43rd, and now you guys are expecting him to average 15 points at least when he reaches his peak. Please don't judge the rookies just because of where they stand in mock drafts. <div class="quote_poster">Quote:</div><div class="quote_post"> You can?t say anything on a player who has yet to enter the league ? especially considering these players are projected late in the first round. Saying someone like Andrew Bogut is more reasonable but an undersized player. Wayne Simien is an undersized player who mostly overpowered his opposition in college. This will not necessarily translate into the NBA so before you make such bold statement, at least watch him before you say he will eclipse 14/9. In addition, he?s been pretty injury prone in college and isn?t a great shot-blocker despite being a beast. </div>Elton Brand had the same doubts about his game when he entered the NBA, and now he's a top-tier shot blocker and a 20/10 lock. Charles Barkley, Corliss Williamson, Kenny Thomas and Marcus Fizer are all testaments that power forwards considered to be small when entering the league don't necessarily turn out bad. Name me one four who has been labelled as small when entering the league and then did turn out to be overwhelmed by the height in the NBA. I'm not too high on Simien in that he won't do as good with the Rockets as Turiaf would, but I still think that he can be a very solid starter within the league.
<div class="quote_poster">Quote:</div><div class="quote_post">Just as I had expected, Knicks fans do "stick together like cheap rice".</div> When we see that people say (who we feel was) our team's MVP isn't considered an upgrade to the Rockets over Howard, we're not going to let it slip. Yes, it is that much of an injustice to KT. <div class="quote_poster">Quote:</div><div class="quote_post">Statistically, yeah, but Howard I feel has improved a lot from what I saw of him in Orlando. He is flourishing in the comfort of not being counted upon to score big points and has focused on doing little things like going after offensive rebounds, playing defense and hitting open jumpshots. He doesn't have to create for himself in Houston, and that's why his stats are lower than throughout his whole career, but Howard is still a dependable power forward who gives 100% night in night out.</div> If he's improved in those categories because he doesn't have as great a pressure to perform on the offensive end in Houston as he did in Orlando, then how much better do you think Kurt Thomas could be? As I said before, Kurt would flourish in the Houston system, especially the way you make it with Howard having improved so much. With Kurt's constant improvement, wouldn't that work well with how he could improve in Houston? He could become a very good player, he's already a great defender and his scoring is pretty consistent. With Yao and McGrady contributing for so many points, the pressure on Kurt would just be to hit the occasional jumper, as a Knick he's relied on to provide a solid double-double with about 11 points and 10 boards. With Yao in Houston, the pressure would be considerably less overwhelming, allowing Kurt to be comfortable for nearly every game - he can be counted on. Tell me then, how isn't he an upgrade? More blocks, better overall defense, a reliable scorer from short/mid-range (Howard is too, but Kurt would really do well), a guy who can position himself well on offense and defense, and lastly he's consistent - not considered a streaky shooter or defender. <div class="quote_poster">Quote:</div><div class="quote_post">ou're making him sound like the DPOY in saying that his defense is almost flawless. Reality is that Kurt Thomas received just one vote for NBA All-Defensive Second Team. Underrated by the fans as usual, you might say, but this voting is done by the coaches of NBA teams, who have all coached against Thomas. Surely you don't know something they don't?</div> He's only great at one aspect of defense: positioning. At pretty much everything else he's solid or good. He quietly plays superb defense, and that's why he doesn't get noticed as much. I said he's a great defender, he does a great job. He's not a Kirilenko (2nd team), Garnett (1st team), or Duncan (1st team), and I never said he was. He's one or two notches below them. And that's considerably better than Howard.
<div class="quote_poster">Quoting Knicks Analyst:</div><div class="quote_post"> ____ Kurt may not be the tallest and strongest of PF's, but it seems like you haven't watched him all that much. He doesn't let his lack of athleticism get in the way, he does his job nonetheless. He scores from further out than most PF's and has nearly perfect timing on his jumper. He is great at positioning himself for rebounds, he averaged 10.4 last season, despite his size. I don't see the angle that Howard was much better - when in Orlando his rebounding and block numbers were still poor, worse than Kurt's. Kurt finds ways to score, and he can attract attention from 4's and 5's when he's on offense and hitting his jumper, giving Yao more room. Works the same way if Yao's really scoring inside (he'd be covered more closely and meticulously), he can get the ball to Kurt for a jumper. Kurt's game would improve in Houston, more than likely to such an extent that it would probably completely cancel out the argument that the talent and quality crop of PF's in the West is greater than in the East.</div> Like I said, if the Rockets we're in the same terrible division as the Knicks, then it would probably be understandable. But unfortunatley, we're in the toughest division and conference full of long and quick PF's (Garnett, Duncan, Gasol, Dirk). Kurt Thomas is too slow to keep up with any of those guys. I keep telling you guys that, but you seem to believe that this guy is worth it. I think the Rockets should get a long athletic PF that can slide to Center and back up Yao. Also, he can bring much needed energy to a team that doesn't really have any. If we want to compete for a Championship, we're not going to get one with Kurt Thomas at PF, especially in the West. All the PF's are like 6'10 to 7 feet. Like I said, the best thing for the Rockets to do is keep Howard, and bring in some young cat to back him up and Yao.
<div class="quote_poster">Quoting Rockfan06:</div><div class="quote_post">Like I said, if the Rockets we're in the same terrible division as the Knicks, then it would probably be understandable. But unfortunatley, we're in the toughest division and conference full of long and quick PF's (Garnett, Duncan, Gasol, Dirk). Kurt Thomas is too slow to keep up with any of those guys. I keep telling you guys that, but you seem to believe that this guy is worth it. I think the Rockets should get a long athletic PF that can slide to Center and back up Yao. Also, he can bring much needed energy to a team that doesn't really have any. If we want to compete for a Championship, we're not going to get one with Kurt Thomas at PF, especially in the West. All the PF's are like 6'10 to 7 feet. Like I said, the best thing for the Rockets to do is keep Howard, and bring in some young cat to back him up and Yao.</div> I'm not saying that he will be traded, or that he's the very best option. I'm arguing that Kurt would be a real upgrade over Howard, that's all. Kurt isn't as fast as those guys you listed, too true. Kurt's positioning is sensational - that's not to say he'd contain any of the guys you listed consistently, just that he'd do nearly twice the job Howard would. I agree that the Rockets could probably go for a taller, longer PF, but to say that Kurt would be burned in the west is going a bit far. Kurt plays tough defense and his size can prove to be a non-factor at times. Like I said, he might not be able to compete with the Duncans, Garnetts, or Kirilenko's but he'd be a pesky defender and would make it tougher for them to score. If you guys think Howard's defense improved, then one can only imagine what could happen for Kurt. It's not like Howard is that much different, he's 6'9 and weighs five less pounds than Kurt. Kurt wouldn't shut some of them down, but he'd try his best and make it more challenging, he's a very good defender and he's only gotten beter. I don't see him improving in the 06-07 season, but it's very possible in the 05-06.
<div class="quote_poster">Quoting Trip:</div><div class="quote_post">Just as I had expected, Knicks fans do "stick together like cheap rice".</div> What Knicks Analyst said. <div class="quote_poster">Quote:</div><div class="quote_post">Statistically, yeah, but Howard I feel has improved a lot from what I saw of him in Orlando. He is flourishing in the comfort of not being counted upon to score big points and has focused on doing little things like going after offensive rebounds, playing defense and hitting open jumpshots. He doesn't have to create for himself in Houston, and that's why his stats are lower than throughout his whole career, but Howard is still a dependable power forward who gives 100% night in night out.</div> Kurt Thomas has always done what Howard is doing and more. You said he does those things such as play a little bit of defense and hits open jumpers. I honestly believe Kurt Thomas has a better jumper than Howard and his better defense goes without saying. Thomas also gives 100% every night and is much more consistent than Howard. <div class="quote_poster">Quote:</div><div class="quote_post">You're making him sound like the DPOY in saying that his defense is almost flawless. Reality is that Kurt Thomas received just one vote for NBA All-Defensive Second Team. Underrated by the fans as usual, you might say, but this voting is done by the coaches of NBA teams, who have all coached against Thomas. Surely you don't know something they don't?</div> No one is flawless and my intentions were not meant to make him sound as if he was the best defender in the league. Kurt Thomas is definitely underrated, however, the Knicks struggles this season didn?t help his cause. It?s hard to vote for someone like Kurt Thomas when he is one of the few people on his team that plays defense. Don?t take too much for what they say actually watching the players should be your first option. Didn?t P.J. Brown get a vote for MVP? Those defensive awards can be overrated and don?t necessarily define a player?s defensive abilities. <div class="quote_poster">Quote:</div><div class="quote_post">Where you get drafted doesn't mean anything. Ben Wallace was undrafted, look where he is now. The Knicks drafted Ariza at 43rd, and now you guys are expecting him to average 15 points at least when he reaches his peak. Please don't judge the rookies just because of where they stand in mock drafts.</div> The only reason why Ariza went so late was because he came out of school too early. In terms of talent, many scouts believe Ariza could have been a mid to late lottery pick if he stayed more years. Randolph Morris declared way too early and is projected late first round. If he stayed in Kentucky another year or too, scouts believe he could be a lottery pick in the near future. While the Ben Wallace statement is true, it?s not realistic at all. For every player who turned out decent who wasn?t drafted, there are literally hundreds of other players per year who haven?t that you?ve probably never heard of. The position of a mock draft is not always 100% correct, but it does give a fairly accurate assessment of a players abilities. What would be the purpose of one then? <div class="quote_poster">Quote:</div><div class="quote_post">Elton Brand had the same doubts about his game when he entered the NBA, and now he's a top-tier shot blocker and a 20/10 lock. Charles Barkley, Corliss Williamson, Kenny Thomas and Marcus Fizer are all testaments that power forwards considered to be small when entering the league don't necessarily turn out bad. Name me one four who has been labelled as small when entering the league and then did turn out to be overwhelmed by the height in the NBA.</div> There?s a very big difference between those players. Elton Brand, Charles Barkley, and Corliss Williamson were all lottery picks. Obviously they were more highly regarded than Wayne Simien ? a player projected in the late first round. And where in the world do you get the impression Marcus Fizer is a testament of undersized power forwards succeeding? Fizer is a testament of how the Bulls draft choices were so terrible these past few years (no offense Chicago fans). The amount of undersized 4?s that didn?t turn out successful so far: Lonny Baxter Sam Clancy Chris Owens Mario Austin Brandon Hunter Donnell Harvey Ousmane Cisse Michael Wright Andre Hutson I stopped after 9. Hopefully this will give you an idea of how many undersized power forwards didn?t make it.
