There are a lot of talented forwards this year in the draft so i do think that it is possible a guy who could end up in the 20s comes out really good. but on a title contending team, i doubt they can truly be effective or get good minutes in comparison to a team like the hawks soon enough. The arguement is pointless since we have already decided that this trade shouldnt happen. Howard had been playing outstandingly before he got injured. He had a double double almost every night and i think that has reasured us he belongs on this team. In comparison to kurt thomas, he is a much better offensive player. He put up 17 last year and now puts up a good ten and is a third option at times. Thomas puts only 10 with the knicks. On the rockets, he would give like 5!
<div class="quote_poster">Quoting bplld:</div><div class="quote_post"> The arguement is pointless since we have already decided that this trade shouldnt happen. Howard had been playing outstandingly before he got injured. He had a double double almost every night and i think that has reasured us he belongs on this team. In comparison to kurt thomas, he is a much better offensive player. He put up 17 last year and now puts up a good ten and is a third option at times. Thomas puts only 10 with the knicks. On the rockets, he would give like 5!</div> Have you even read most of the arguments made? There is so much support for Kurt averaging 10+ with Houston. Howard couldn't have gotten as many double-double's as you let on, he averaged 5.7 RPG for the season, that's not close to double-double numbers.
<div class="quote_poster">Quoting bplld:</div><div class="quote_post">There are a lot of talented forwards this year in the draft so i do think that it is possible a guy who could end up in the 20s comes out really good. but on a title contending team, i doubt they can truly be effective or get good minutes in comparison to a team like the hawks soon enough.</div> The draft is deep, but expecting a star with the 24th pick is stretching. If the Rockets picked up someone younger with more talent, than perhaps, but they will probably get a more NBA-ready player. <div class="quote_poster">Quote:</div><div class="quote_post">The arguement is pointless since we have already decided that this trade shouldnt happen. Howard had been playing outstandingly before he got injured. He had a double double almost every night and i think that has reasured us he belongs on this team. In comparison to kurt thomas, he is a much better offensive player. He put up 17 last year and now puts up a good ten and is a third option at times. Thomas puts only 10 with the knicks. On the rockets, he would give like 5!</div> He had a double-double almost every night? We are talking about this season, right? This season he only had seven and Kurt Thomas had a little more than four times the amount at 32 double-doubles which is good enough to be ranked at #12 in the league. Clearly, you do not really watch the Knicks so please don?t say he would average only five points in Houston. Kurt Thomas? role wasn?t really to score, especially with the Knicks roster full of those already. Thomas played tough hard-nosed defense, rebounded the ball exceptionally well and played consistently. When he got looks, he took them, but if Thomas didn?t score for a night, the Knicks would be fine. Thomas would be better than Howard and would take tons of pressure off of Yao Ming. Down in the paint, Thomas does all the intangibles that don?t show up on the boxscore. Thomas is more durable, a better defender, a better rebounder, is much more valuable to this ball club. Houston would be lucky to have him.
Howard had 8 double-doubles this year, and 5 with 9 rebounds. Yao had a lot more but stats show that when Howard steps up in rebounding, Yao's numbers go down, and vice versa. It shows that Yao and Howard's performances are related to each other and thus Yao does affect Howard's numbers. As for Thomas, I looked up the stats of the marquee fours against him, and results don't prove anything. Kevin Garnett averaged 23/17/8 against the Knicks in two games. While it might not have been Thomas on him all game, I'd assume that Thomas was the guy guarding KG. Tim Duncan in one game had 17 and 10. Chris Webber in one game had 22/11. Chris Bosh in four had 17 and 9. Antoine Walker in three averaged 23/10. Jermaine O'Neal in two games 29/9. If you asked me, I won't say that the opponents' stats reflect on Thomas very well.
<div class="quote_poster">Quoting Trip:</div><div class="quote_post">Howard had 8 double-doubles this year, and 5 with 9 rebounds. Yao had a lot more but stats show that when Howard steps up in rebounding, Yao's numbers go down, and vice versa. It shows that Yao and Howard's performances are related to each other and thus Yao does affect Howard's numbers.</div> Both players? rebounds per game have been pretty consistent throughout their careers and when it all boils down, Juwan Howard only averages 5.7 rebounds. Kurt Thomas averages almost twice the amount of rebounds and no matter how much Yao?s rebounding decreases, there will be more of a balance and more importantly, Houston will simply average more rebounds a game. <div class="quote_poster">Quote:</div><div class="quote_post">As for Thomas, I looked up the stats of the marquee fours against him, and results don't prove anything. Kevin Garnett averaged 23/17/8 against the Knicks in two games. While it might not have been Thomas on him all game, I'd assume that Thomas was the guy guarding KG. Tim Duncan in one game had 17 and 10. Chris Webber in one game had 22/11. Chris Bosh in four had 17 and 9. Antoine Walker in three averaged 23/10. Jermaine O'Neal in two games 29/9. If you asked me, I won't say that the opponents' stats reflect on Thomas very well.</div> The first game of the season, Thomas couldn?t guard Garnett however, the second meeting, Thomas held Garnett to 17 points on just 41% shooting ? 9% from his season average. Duncan averages 20/11 in 33 minutes so Thomas held him lower than his average plus 5 more minutes. Bosh averages about 17/9 so it?s not too bad especially since he shot only 42% - which is 6% lower than what he shoots. Webber also shot just 43%. Walker shot 41% from the field. The rest just had good games on him. Those stats are also bloated because New York has one good defender on a bad defensive team. If Kurt Thomas was playing in a better system such as Houston?s, his numbers would be much better.
<div class="quote_poster">Quoting Trip:</div><div class="quote_post">Howard had 8 double-doubles this year, and 5 with 9 rebounds. Yao had a lot more but stats show that when Howard steps up in rebounding, Yao's numbers go down, and vice versa. It shows that Yao and Howard's performances are related to each other and thus Yao does affect Howard's numbers.</div> Ok, man. Nevertheless, the man averaged about 7.4/5 RPG before even getting to Houston, you can't possibly tell me that he'd manage in the future to baloon his RPG up to 10.4? In the last four of five years in which Howard was healthy, he's gotten in the in the high 500's and some low 600's. Kurt has had one year with 515 followed by one with 747 a couple of mid 600's, then last year 831. Howard is a 7.45 RPG kind of guy, while Kurt is a 8.7-9.5 kind of guy. <div class="quote_poster">Quote:</div><div class="quote_post"> As for Thomas, I looked up the stats of the marquee fours against him, and results don't prove anything. Kevin Garnett averaged 23/17/8 against the Knicks in two games. While it might not have been Thomas on him all game, I'd assume that Thomas was the guy guarding KG. Tim Duncan in one game had 17 and 10. Chris Webber in one game had 22/11. Chris Bosh in four had 17 and 9. Antoine Walker in three averaged 23/10. Jermaine O'Neal in two games 29/9.</div> The game against the Wolves in which KG exploded for 23/20/7 - Kurt managed 15 rebounds, 11 points (5/10 shooting), and 4 assists. All the while on defense under Lenny, Kurt and Nazr switched assignments quite often. And for some reason, I don't see Howard being capable of pulling down 15 boards against the Wolves in 35 minutes. Howard got 14 boards on the Wolves, but he played his season high of 39 minutes, he was 6/15 shooting, and had 9 rebounds on offense, for some reason I get the feeling that he got his own shot back after missing a few times. Against Duncan he held him 3 points below his season average of 20.3 PPG, and one below his season average of RPG (11.1). Not bad, Kurt had 8 and 11. Webber - I remember that game, when Webber was still with Sacramento. I do. He just had a really bad game - bad case of foul trouble, picked up 5 fouls that night - only played for 20-22 minutes. It wasn't him most of the game, but he had timing problems that night. Bosh- Kurt never could figure him out completely, I found it strange. He never seems to play well against the Raptors, I admit that he's not good against Toronto, he never really has a good game. Kurt did hold Bosh somewhere around his average ( http://www.nba.com/playerfile/chris_bosh/index.html ). If there's one team Kurt doesn't perform well against, it's the Raptors. Walker - In the first game against Walker in 04-05 against the Hawks I specifically rememered Kurt switching with TT a lot - Harrington would drive in, TT would leave him for Walker and KT would take Harrington for a good part of that game. Harrington and Walker both played very well that night, TT screwed KT over with his poor defense, he lets his guy beat him all the time and he often is assigned Walker as Walker moves outside towards the perimeter. That was something I never understood from Lenny, he had the strangest defensive schemes. Then the next game against Walker, he was still in Atlanta - he scored 36 points off of 13-23 shooting - wow, right? He had 9 TO's, and got a some of open 3's (5/6 from 3pt range) thanks to blown assignments from TT (who was switching with KT when Walker backed near the perimeter). Don't forget - 9 TO's, and Walker doesn't just drop the ball and let it fall on the ground at the perimeter, no, those were caused elsewhere on the floor, maybe...when KT was on him? And in the last game, Walker scored 13 points - off of 5/20 shooting (2/6 from 3 pt) so that would mean he was about 2/14 from inside the perimeter - that's where KT guards him. O'Neal - The first game on the 13th of November, O'Neal was deadly. KT had one of those mediocre nights that come one in 7 or 8 games, he fouled out of the game. No excuses, he played poor defense that night. In the other game O'Neal had 24 and 9 (2 assists, 4 TO's) off of 8/17 shooting - a good game. Kurt had a tough time against him, but still managed to get his on offense off of 8/15 shooting he had 16 points and managed 9 boards and three assists (but three TO's). All in all, Kurt had some good games - and a few bad ones *cough* Bosh *cough*, but still appeared solid against them. Again, don't forget my point that once every 7 or 8 games, he'll give you a mediocre defensive performance. Also, remember that some of those games were under Wilkens, whose defensive schemes were purely pitiful, to put it nicely. Mrj summed it up nicely too. Kurt played in a horrible system for a good part of the year, which hurt him.
Haha man, you're comment about Howard's 9 o-boards against the Wolves made me chuckle. Howard, I think I've said before, is a pretty good offensive rebounder IMO and dude gets a lot of tips. Against the Wolves, he got a rebound off a miss, put it back up, missed, tipped it, went off glass, tipped it again and it rimmed out, then he tapped it outside. So yeah, those 9 o-boards were not truly to his credit. From the stats, I see that both Thomas and Howard hustle for offensive boards and both are at 2.1 orpg, but it is Thomas who gets about 5 more D-boards a game. That is inexcusible for Howard, although I actually do have one. Yao. Howard gets those offensive rebounds most of the time when Yao is either setting a pick for TMac or he himself is taking an outside shot. Howard always stays inside in anticipation of a missed J. On defense, when Yao is set up just as firmly as Howard, it's obvious who will get the rebound most of the time. I've seen a few games of the Knicks against the Raptors, and it always occurred to me that Bosh was able to beat Thomas off the dribble, and that was what killed the Knicks. Therefore, I wonder if Garnett did the same to him?
<div class="quote_poster">Quoting Trip:</div><div class="quote_post">Haha man, you're comment about Howard's 9 o-boards against the Wolves made me chuckle. Howard, I think I've said before, is a pretty good offensive rebounder IMO and dude gets a lot of tips. Against the Wolves, he got a rebound off a miss, put it back up, missed, tipped it, went off glass, tipped it again and it rimmed out, then he tapped it outside. So yeah, those 9 o-boards were not truly to his credit. From the stats, I see that both Thomas and Howard hustle for offensive boards and both are at 2.1 orpg, but it is Thomas who gets about 5 more D-boards a game. That is inexcusible for Howard, although I actually do have one. Yao. Howard gets those offensive rebounds most of the time when Yao is either setting a pick for TMac or he himself is taking an outside shot. Howard always stays inside in anticipation of a missed J. On defense, when Yao is set up just as firmly as Howard, it's obvious who will get the rebound most of the time.</div> Meh. The excuse you offered for Howard (Yao) concerning his lack of defensive boards in contrast to KT is nullified by the fact that Howard has never averaged above 5.8 defensive RPG, that's too low for a career high. The Yao argument doesn't work as a result in my opinion. <div class="quote_poster">Quote:</div><div class="quote_post"> I've seen a few games of the Knicks against the Raptors, and it always occurred to me that Bosh was able to beat Thomas off the dribble, and that was what killed the Knicks. Therefore, I wonder if Garnett did the same to him?</div>Bosh is very allusive, very quick, and while KT is great at positioning himself, Bosh seems to have an edge. I don't necessarily see it when I watch KG playing against KT, because KG employs other tactics in looking to get to the basket, such as posting up on KT - which KT defends solidly against. KT is hard to pass, Bosh just seems to be able to find an angle off of him, he seems to slice right in - haven't seen anything like it done on KT (from any other player).
You obviously dont watch the rockets. If you did, you would know the numbers that howard was putting up just before his injury. After the trade deadline, he was very effective for us and one of the biggest reasons that we went on a surge around that time of year. At the beginning of the year, he was terrible and would only give you 3-4 boards a night and thats why his stats are really low right now. About offense, thomas can score, but he wont be as effective as howard. Howard is a much more profilic scorer than thomas. He has put up big nubers in his career before and is a reliable third option.
<div class="quote_poster">Quoting bplld:</div><div class="quote_post">You obviously dont watch the rockets. If you did, you would know the numbers that howard was putting up just before his injury. After the trade deadline, he was very effective for us and one of the biggest reasons that we went on a surge around that time of year. At the beginning of the year, he was terrible and would only give you 3-4 boards a night and thats why his stats are really low right now. About offense, thomas can score, but he wont be as effective as howard. Howard is a much more profilic scorer than thomas. He has put up big nubers in his career before and is a reliable third option.</div> He [Howard] was terrible at the beginning of the year...so? He was terrible, he got better later on. Players go on streaks. The facts are that Kurt is by far a better overall rebounder than Howard, and a better defender (also a better shot-blocker). All in all, Kurt is the better player. Howard is a better scorer though. Kurt's considerably better defense and rebounding more than make up for it in terms of his overall value. Kurt's the better player, there really is no denying it.
Don't know why the Houston Rockets would want to trade their 24th pick in a deal for KT. Has anyone realized that this team has no young players? The only really young player are Tracy McGrady and Yao Ming, the rest are basically role players in the 30's (or near it). The Rockets need to get younger in this draft. You just can't keep rebuilding around T-Mac and Yao year after year if the pieces don't fit well together. With this deep draft, you could add someone to the core of Yao and T-Mac. If I'm the Rockets I much rather have Juwan Howard, Weatherspoon and a young F like Simien, Turiaf, Blatche and Morris over an aging Thomas and Howard. I think Howard can hold his own down against the PF's next season with the help of the rook and Weatherspoon.
<div class="quote_poster">Quoting Banks:</div><div class="quote_post">Don't know why the Houston Rockets would want to trade their 24th pick in a deal for KT. Has anyone realized that this team has no young players? The only really young player are Tracy McGrady and Yao Ming, the rest are basically role players in the 30's (or near it). The Rockets need to get younger in this draft. You just can't keep rebuilding around T-Mac and Yao year after year if the pieces don't fit well together. With this deep draft, you could add someone to the core of Yao and T-Mac. If I'm the Rockets I much rather have Juwan Howard, Weatherspoon and a young F like Simien, Turiaf, Blatche and Morris over an aging Thomas and Howard. I think Howard can hold his own down against the PF's next season with the help of the rook and Weatherspoon.</div> I definately agree to a certain extent, they don't need Kurt. The argument is over Kurt and Howard - Kurt is definately an upgrade over Howard, it's just not such a big deal that Houston would change what their plan appears to be to make such a trade happen. Kurt wouldn't fit in their plan, he has a large contract, and Houston is looking to unload cap - so a KT trade more than likely will not happen. No one is arguing that.
<div class="quote_poster">Quoting Knicks Analyst:</div><div class="quote_post">I definately agree to a certain extent, they don't need Kurt. The argument is over Kurt and Howard - Kurt is definately an upgrade over Howard, it's just not such a big deal that Houston would change what their plan appears to be to make such a trade happen. Kurt wouldn't fit in their plan, he has a large contract, and Houston is looking to unload cap - so a KT trade more than likely will not happen. No one is arguing that.</div> I'm responding to the debate you guys are having on KT and Howard; I'm just responding to the proposed trade and why I don't believe it's a good idea.
<div class="quote_poster">Quoting Knicks Analyst:</div><div class="quote_post">He [Howard] was terrible at the beginning of the year...so? He was terrible, he got better later on. Players go on streaks. The facts are that Kurt is by far a better overall rebounder than Howard, and a better defender (also a better shot-blocker). All in all, Kurt is the better player. Howard is a better scorer though. Kurt's considerably better defense and rebounding more than make up for it in terms of his overall value. Kurt's the better player, there really is no denying it.</div> Would defense be more important than offense? In that case, I can then see why Thomas is better than Howard. However, if offense and defense are equal in terms of importance, then Howard = Thomas. You can argue both ways, it's like saying who's the better player, Bruce Bowen or Jalen Rose. One who's exceptional at defense and the other who's a pure offensive player.
<div class="quote_poster">Quoting Trip:</div><div class="quote_post">Would defense be more important than offense? In that case, I can then see why Thomas is better than Howard. However, if offense and defense are equal in terms of importance, then Howard = Thomas. You can argue both ways, it's like saying who's the better player, Bruce Bowen or Jalen Rose. One who's exceptional at defense and the other who's a pure offensive player.</div> I disagree with you, I think that with the extra rebounds, blocks, and overall quality of defense that Thomas plays he makes up for the lack of scoring (in comparison to Howard) and then some. Let me just add that Kurt would be a much better scorer outside of New York. Marbury isn't exactly great at running the pick & roll, and Herb does not use KT as often as he should. Kurt is a much better offensive player than his stats indicate, on another team (with a better coach than Herb) if he were the 3rd option...I'd estimate a good 13-15 PPG at this stage in his career. After a year or two I'd say 10.5-12.75 PPG. If used correctly Kurt can be a serious threat, and his superb jump shot makes him a nearly ideal player to complement a guy like Yao.
<div class="quote_poster">Quoting Knicks Analyst:</div><div class="quote_post">I disagree with you, I think that with the extra rebounds, blocks, and overall quality of defense that Thomas plays he makes up for the lack of scoring (in comparison to Howard) and then some. Let me just add that Kurt would be a much better scorer outside of New York. Marbury isn't exactly great at running the pick & roll, and Herb does not use KT as often as he should. Kurt is a much better offensive player than his stats indicate, on another team (with a better coach than Herb) if he were the 3rd option...I'd estimate a good 13-15 PPG at this stage in his career. After a year or two I'd say 10.5-12.75 PPG. If used correctly Kurt can be a serious threat, and his superb jump shot makes him a nearly ideal player to complement a guy like Yao.</div> Kurt Thomas as a 3rd option? Is it only me, or does that sound a little bit wack? As a 3rd option, would you actually considering running plays for him? If you actually did use him as a 3rd option on any other team...you would be taking points away from their primary scorers. Plus any team that has KT as their 3rd option is likely a losing team. He's not a great inside scorer and all you really need to do to contain him on defense is stay up close and guard the pick and roll effectively. I understand you guys saying that Kurt will be a good fit in Houston because of his defense...but he really isn't close to Howard as a 3rd option.
<div class="quote_poster">Quoting Banks:</div><div class="quote_post">Kurt Thomas as a 3rd option? Is it only me, or does that sound a little bit wack? As a 3rd option, would you actually considering running plays for him? If you actually did use him as a 3rd option on any other team...you would be taking points away from their primary scorers. Plus any team that has KT as their 3rd option is likely a losing team. He's not a great inside scorer and all you really need to do to contain him on defense is stay up close and guard the pick and roll effectively. I understand you guys saying that Kurt will be a good fit in Houston because of his defense...but he really isn't close to Howard as a 3rd option.</div> In Houston it will be hard to stay close to him all game and guard the pick and roll with Yao down low, it'd be pretty hard to collapse on him - he'd just sling it out to Kurt for a jumper (you know JVG would set that up). And ok, if he was used as a 4th option he probably would get his 9-11 PPG, which is exactly what he's getting around now - but he'd play his defense and get his boards, which make him better than Howard. Kurt's defense (shot-blocking included) and his rebounding make him a better player than Howard even though he only scores 10 or 11 a game. Even so, I think in Houston he would be perfect - with Yao taking up room down low, Yao would benefit like crazy if he was constantly left with one man (assuming he improves a good amount over the summer he would be a real force). As a 4th option on most teams Kurt will give you 9-11 PPG, but his defense and rebounding are what make him so valuable, more valauble than Howard is (even Trip admitted that Kurt is the better player). Though I admit, Howard is a better scorer - Kurt's defense and rebounding put him ahead. On a team with a really good center, Kurt could benefit like crazy - that's all I'm saying. Kurt would score more in Houston per game, than he does in New York - and if he was the 4th option, he'd probably put up similar numbers to what he did in 04-05 (with his defense and rebounding, making him the better player).
<div class="quote_poster">Quoting Knicks Analyst:</div><div class="quote_post">In Houston it will be hard to stay close to him all game and guard the pick and roll with Yao down low, it'd be pretty hard to collapse on him - he'd just sling it out to Kurt for a jumper (you know JVG would set that up). And ok, if he was used as a 4th option he probably would get his 9-11 PPG, which is exactly what he's getting around now - but he'd play his defense and get his boards, which make him better than Howard. Kurt's defense (shot-blocking included) and his rebounding make him a better player than Howard even though he only scores 10 or 11 a game. Even so, I think in Houston he would be perfect - with Yao taking up room down low, Yao would benefit like crazy if he was constantly left with one man (assuming he improves a good amount over the summer he would be a real force). As a 4th option on most teams Kurt will give you 9-11 PPG, but his defense and rebounding are what make him so valuable, more valauble than Howard is (even Trip admitted that Kurt is the better player). Though I admit, Howard is a better scorer - Kurt's defense and rebounding put him ahead. On a team with a really good center, Kurt could benefit like crazy - that's all I'm saying. Kurt would score more in Houston per game, than he does in New York - and if he was the 4th option, he'd probably put up similar numbers to what he did in 04-05 (with his defense and rebounding, making him the better player).</div> I've said that Thomas is the better player, yes, but also that he won't be much of an upgrade over Howard. I don't see the addition of Thomas help the Rockets reach 60 wins and become a contender. With Howard for about 50 starts, the Rockets got to 51 wins. With your implication that Thomas would do so much more for the Rockets, wouldn't you be implying also that the addition of Thomas would essentially put us over the top? If he's so much better a player, hey, 65 wins with Thomas for 82 games would sound reasonable according to you right?
