With the 7th pick, the Toronto Raptors select Charlie Villenuva...

Okay, I just had a really long post that didn't go through, so I'm going to try to make my repost brief -

This thread is so full of fan bias that it makes me sick. It's extremely moronic to say that I'm not qualified to know who are the best prospects available because I haven't publically proclaimed that I have the title of "scout". Just to clear some things up, I have probably scouted more games of Danny Granger than any single Raptors scout alive, so don't give me any B.S. about how he was just a giant smokescreen. Hey, Babcock knows something I don't know about Rafael Araujo, but other than that, I'm pretty set with the knowledge I have of these prospects. Maybe you guys are ignorant and just base your knowledge off some highlights or some online profiles, but I've seen, met, and scouted most of these players.

If Utah didn't trade up to #3, Granger would have, for a fact, been their pick at #6. His fall was caused by promises. The Knicks, Warriors, Lakers, and Clippers all had promises in place. I honestly don't think that any of them thought that Granger would slip past #4, #5, #6, AND #7. When you look at the teams that didn't have known promises that passed up Granger, you'll see that most of them had good reasons for doing so, and it wasn't Granger's game. Just look at Charlotte. There was no way they would have passed on Sean May, the hometown player they've wanted since day one. Then you have New Jersey, who had been eyeing moving up to grab Antoine Wright in the top ten, so them picking him at #15 was a no-brainer. The only ones that made me scratch my head (outside of Toronto) were Orlando and Minnesota. So you see, Granger's fall wasn't because of smokescreens. His fall was because of promises and team wants. I can assure you that Granger is one of the top 5-8 draftees though.

As for the guy who said Graham is a better defender, well, personal attacks aren't allowed, but I will say that your statement was very moronic. There was not a better defender in the draft than Danny Granger.

That's all I have the energy to re-write after losing such a huge post. Enjoy.

 

Voodoo, calm down man. You say this thread is biased, of course it is. I agree that passing up on Granger was a mistake, however some Raptor fans would rather make a positive spin on the situation, considering it cannot be changed.

I think you might have posted in the wrong thread, because I looked through every page and could not find your original post.

and I understand the pain of losing a large post, its happened to me several times.

 

<div class="quote_poster">Quoting SkiptoMyLue11:</div><div class="quote_post">Voodoo, calm down man. You say this thread is biased, of course it is. I agree that passing up on Granger was a mistake, however some Raptor fans would rather make a positive spin on the situation, considering it cannot be changed.

I think you might have posted in the wrong thread, because I looked through every page and could not find your original post.

and I understand the pain of losing a large post, its happened to me several times. </div>

I understand putting a positive spin on a negative situation, but you don't have to just flat out lie to yourself to make the situation seem positive. And I lost my post because my computer froze.

 

I don't believe that Raptor fans were lying to ourselves, its difficult for NBA fans to have excellent perspectives on college players. For example I usually watch a considerable amount of games during March Maddness, sometimes live, but during other times of the year I don't have time for it.

Anyway, usually most NBA fans get their knowledge from scouting reports and there isn't much other ways of comparing players. So receiving false knowledge doesn't necessarily implicate lying to yourself. Both Joey Graham and Danny Granger are excellent defenders, Granger I believe is more agile(which helps as a defender) while Graham has more strength. I have also heard that many GMs slighty dropped Granger's value due to injury concerns at such a young age. (Knee and Back)

I still think that Granger should have been taken by the Raps at 7, however as a Raptor fan I am trying to defend their reasoning.

Please feel free to give your opinion on this topic. Note that I haven't even seen Granger or Graham play, so ALL my knowledge comes from reports, however I would believe that most scouts would give fairly accurate reports.

 

Granger is the better defender, according to scouts. He was a good man to man defender, and averaged 2.0 BPG in College, while Graham wasn't that good a shot blocker, and commited a lot of fouls while not blocking many shots. Graham is more athletic, but that doesn't always make you a better defender, Artest is not the most athletic player at his position, and far from it.

 

<div class="quote_poster">Quoting SkiptoMyLue11:</div><div class="quote_post">I don't believe that Raptor fans were lying to ourselves, its difficult for NBA fans to have excellent perspectives on college players. For example I usually watch a considerable amount of games during March Maddness, sometimes live, but during other times of the year I don't have time for it.

Anyway, usually most NBA fans get their knowledge from scouting reports and there isn't much other ways of comparing players. So receiving false knowledge doesn't necessarily implicate lying to yourself. Both Joey Graham and Danny Granger are excellent defenders, Granger I believe is more agile(which helps as a defender) while Graham has more strength. I have also heard that many GMs slighty dropped Granger's value due to injury concerns at such a young age. (Knee and Back)

I still think that Granger should have been taken by the Raps at 7, however as a Raptor fan I am trying to defend their reasoning.

Please feel free to give your opinion on this topic. Note that I haven't even seen Granger or Graham play, so ALL my knowledge comes from reports, however I would believe that most scouts would give fairly accurate reports.</div>

If a fan doesn't know anything about college players, then they shouldn't comment on them. It's as simple as that. If you make a post that says Granger was overrated or that he isn't as good of a defender as Graham and then ask not to be called out, then you should have a giant disclaimer above your post saying, "Please forgive me, as I know jack **** about college basketball players."

I mean, what'd you want me to do, let stupid statements like those slide?

And what do you mean "Please feel free to give your opinion on this topic"? I believe I have. My opinion is that you should have taken Granger.

 

Wow guys, if you all think Villanueva is going to be a center in the NBA, then you're in for a ruse awakening. The one game I remember was against UNC where May and Williams made him look stupid down low. Charlie had 2 total points in 27 minutes. And if you look at UConn's opponents last season, they didn't play against any teams with good big men, except UNC. Torin francis and Chris Taft were decent, but neither one are NBA players IMO. Hakim Warrick doesn't count because he played mostly at the wing last season. Besides, Villanueva never really played center- He and Josh Boone both took care of business down low as PF's. One thing that I always was impressed with in CV was his shot block ability. But I just can't say I liked his game overall. So what I'm trying to say is CV will get dismantled if you put him at center. I personally would play him at PF, but Bosh is there.

 

<div class="quote_poster">Quoting Voodoo Child:</div><div class="quote_post">If a fan doesn't know anything about college players, then they shouldn't comment on them. It's as simple as that. If you make a post that says Granger was overrated or that he isn't as good of a defender as Graham and then ask not to be called out, then you should have a giant disclaimer above your post saying, "Please forgive me, as I know jack **** about college basketball players."

I mean, what'd you want me to do, let stupid statements like those slide?

And what do you mean "Please feel free to give your opinion on this topic"? I believe I have. My opinion is that you should have taken Granger.</div>


So VC, you're basicly saying one of two things:

1) You have more knowledge about the prospects than Babcock, Embry, Mitchell, Howard and Pete and know what's better for the team than them. Or..

2) Babcock ignored what's best for the team.

Right?

 

Babcock did pass on Granger, but the bottom line is that we got 4 players who wanted to be in Toronto Raptors uniform. Granger may be a better overall player than Joey Graham but he isn't even closely as physical as Graham. We got what we needed by picking Graham: Toughness and leadership. Read my thread titled "Good Read: Raptors Draft Analysis".

Voodoo Child, even if you did see 'x' number of games of Danny Granger, it doesn't do anything to prove that Granger definitely would have been the better choice. How many games did you watch of Joey Graham? I'm willing to bet that it'll considerably be less than the number of games you watched of Granger. You stated that you were sick of reading 'biased' comments but you have to consider your position here. Are you not biased by saying that Granger definitely would have been the better choice? A player with more talents doesn't necessarily equal to the better choice.

Honestly, we can keep debating all we want, but no one would come out the clear-cut winner until after the start of the 05-06 season.

 

<div class="quote_poster">Quoting Voodoo Child:</div><div class="quote_post">Okay, I just had a really long post that didn't go through, so I'm going to try to make my repost brief -

This thread is so full of fan bias that it makes me sick. It's extremely moronic to say that I'm not qualified to know who are the best prospects available because I haven't publically proclaimed that I have the title of "scout". Just to clear some things up, I have probably scouted more games of Danny Granger than any single Raptors scout alive, so don't give me any B.S. about how he was just a giant smokescreen. Hey, Babcock knows something I don't know about Rafael Araujo, but other than that, I'm pretty set with the knowledge I have of these prospects. Maybe you guys are ignorant and just base your knowledge off some highlights or some online profiles, but I've seen, met, and scouted most of these players.

If Utah didn't trade up to #3, Granger would have, for a fact, been their pick at #6. His fall was caused by promises. The Knicks, Warriors, Lakers, and Clippers all had promises in place. I honestly don't think that any of them thought that Granger would slip past #4, #5, #6, AND #7. When you look at the teams that didn't have known promises that passed up Granger, you'll see that most of them had good reasons for doing so, and it wasn't Granger's game. Just look at Charlotte. There was no way they would have passed on Sean May, the hometown player they've wanted since day one. Then you have New Jersey, who had been eyeing moving up to grab Antoine Wright in the top ten, so them picking him at #15 was a no-brainer. The only ones that made me scratch my head (outside of Toronto) were Orlando and Minnesota. So you see, Granger's fall wasn't because of smokescreens. His fall was because of promises and team wants. I can assure you that Granger is one of the top 5-8 draftees though.

As for the guy who said Graham is a better defender, well, personal attacks aren't allowed, but I will say that your statement was very moronic. There was not a better defender in the draft than Danny Granger.

That's all I have the energy to re-write after losing such a huge post. Enjoy.</div>

I believe you have a little player bias in your post, but yes i agree with you and i believe Babcock should of drafted Granger instead of Villanueva or Graham.

 

<div class="quote_poster">Quoting Purple Fever:</div><div class="quote_post">So VC, you're basicly saying one of two things:

1) You have more knowledge about the prospects than Babcock, Embry, Mitchell, Howard and Pete and know what's better for the team than them. Or..

2) Babcock ignored what's best for the team.

Right?</div>

1) About Granger, yes.
2) Unless the best available player is not best for the team, then yes.

VinK, I've seen roughly 20 or so Oklahoma State games. While I haven't focussed on Graham as a prospect in all of them, I know his game very well. I'm a huge NCAA junkie. I feel that after watching enough of these two, I can tell which player is the better NBA prospect, and I feel it's biased and narrowminded to assume that Granger's stock was just a smokescreen. I don't know what the Raptor's team needs are as well as you do (obviously), but I can tell you who the best available player was at #7, and it was Danny Granger, and especially at #16.

 

<div class="quote_poster">Quoting Voodoo Child:</div><div class="quote_post">1) About Granger, yes.
2) Unless the best available player is not best for the team, then yes.
</div>

Listen man, you know how much I respect your opinion about the college/pro game, but to bring up the notion that you have a better knowledge of a certain prospect who have been scouted by our staff from day 1 in high school (Howard has scouted him since his high school career began) and the much work the staff put into scouting these prospects, let alone a draftee who was projected to be our pick, is plain stupid.

There's a limit of how much an average person who has other priorities can search about a certain prospect, but those guys get PAID to do so, it's their #1 priority, so I'd like to assume their give it much more time and effort than you do!

 

<div class="quote_poster">Quoting Voodoo Child:</div><div class="quote_post">1) About Granger, yes.
2) Unless the best available player is not best for the team, then yes.

VinK, I've seen roughly 20 or so Oklahoma State games. While I haven't focussed on Graham as a prospect in all of them, I know his game very well. I'm a huge NCAA junkie. I feel that after watching enough of these two, I can tell which player is the better NBA prospect, and I feel it's biased and narrowminded to assume that Granger's stock was just a smokescreen. I don't know what the Raptor's team needs are as well as you do (obviously), but I can tell you who the best available player was at #7, and it was Danny Granger, and especially at #16.</div>

Yes, I do acknowledge that you are immensely knowledgeable when it comes to NCAA basketball, and Granger may be a better player overall especially when it comes to his ability to score. I'm not implying that he can only score, he can do a lot of other things like defend, rebound and pass. However, like I mentioned above, he does lack two things that Joey Graham possesses - toughness and leadership - of which the Raptors sorely needed.

 

<div class="quote_poster">Quoting VinKanaddy:</div><div class="quote_post">However, like I mentioned above, he does lack two things that Joey Graham possesses - toughness and leadership - of which the Raptors sorely needed.</div>
Not sure what you mean there. Granger is no doubt a leader on the court from what I saw. He would often take over in big games like the Utah game where he made some huge plays at the end to lead New Mexico to the upset victory. I still think you all made a huge mistake by not taking this guy with either one of your first round picks. I loved the Graham pick, though.

 

<div class="quote_poster">Quoting Purple Fever:</div><div class="quote_post">Listen man, you know how much I respect your opinion about the college/pro game, but to bring up the notion that you have a better knowledge of a certain prospect who have been scouted by our staff from day 1 in high school (Howard has scouted him since his high school career began) and the much work the staff put into scouting these prospects, let alone a draftee who was projected to be our pick, is plain stupid.

There's a limit of how much an average person who has other priorities can search about a certain prospect, but those guys get PAID to do so, it's their #1 priority, so I'd like to assume their give it much more time and effort than you do!</div>

You seriously seem to doubt that I have tracked Granger's entire career. You say that Howard scouted him in High School, but by that do you mean he went to his games? The kid wasn't even a High School All-American. You're telling me that a scout working in Toronto, Canada flew down to a High School gym in Metairie, Louisiana to see a non-HS-All-American prospect in 2000 who might be on their radar in 2005? I doubt that. I will tell you one thing though. Since Granger's first few games at Bradley, I have been following him. I've seen him play live in person at Bradley probably more than any Raptors scouts, and I've seen him play live and/or on t.v. while he was at New Mexico just as much as any Raptors scouts. If you don't believe me, go back and look on BBB where I once wrote an article on the kid (which was in about '01 or '02).

So just because this guy get's paid, it doesn't mean that he A) has seen more of Danny Granger than I have or he can assess his game better than I can.

These scouts don't always know everything about every player's game. They're not infallible. If that were the case, you'd be able to look back at past drafts and see that the top five players went #1, #2, #3, #4, and #5, which, if you actually look at past drafts, you'll see is never the case.



<div class="quote_poster">Quote:</div><div class="quote_post">Yes, I do acknowledge that you are immensely knowledgeable when it comes to NCAA basketball, and Granger may be a better player overall especially when it comes to his ability to score. I'm not implying that he can only score, he can do a lot of other things like defend, rebound and pass. However, like I mentioned above, he does lack two things that Joey Graham possesses - toughness and leadership - of which the Raptors sorely needed.</div>

Like UK said, that's not true at all. The only thing Graham has over him is freakish size and strength. He's got a Power Forward's body. Outside of that, I'd have to give Granger the edge in just about ever area.

I'm not trying to belittle Joey Graham though. I think picks #16-19 were all steals, but the fact is that the Raptors still passed up Granger. If Granger had gone #15 and the Raptors picked Graham at #16, then I would have loved their pick, but that's not the way things worked out.

 

Well, the fact that Charlotte passed on Granger really surprised me...i mean they need a swingman more than they need another power forward in Sean May, i was rooting for the Raptors to pick Danny Granger as well becuase he was a good player and because he like Toronto but i think that Babs at least has a small plan for the future..

 

^
Charlotte was just stupid, it seemed like they were more interested in getting the home guys in order to sell more tickets. Not that it's bad, but not the best basketball move...

 

It helps chemistry and it may make Felton and May stay in the long run.

 

VooDoo Child I'm surprised your not the GM of an NBA team... wow you know more about college players than even NBA GMS!! Jeez, that's impressive, I guess it's also your FULL-TIME job to scout players too right? And I'm sure with all your knowledge on scouting you've received many calls from NBA teams to be their scouts and even GMs... I wish i was in your position.

And about us needing toughness and leadership. It's obvious that Graham is the tougher player, he isn't as injury prone as Gragner who played 14 games his soph season and 21 his junior. During a 30 game colelge season, imagine in a 82 game NBA season.

 

<div class="quote_poster">Quoting Mr.Wade:</div><div class="quote_post">VooDoo Child I'm surprised your not the GM of an NBA team... wow you know more about college players than even NBA GMS!! Jeez, that's impressive, I guess it's also your FULL-TIME job to scout players too right? And I'm sure with all your knowledge on scouting you've received many calls from NBA teams to be their scouts and even GMs... I wish i was in your position.

And about us needing toughness and leadership. It's obvious that Graham is the tougher player, he isn't as injury prone as Gragner who played 14 games his soph season and 21 his junior. During a 30 game colelge season, imagine in a 82 game NBA season.</div>

You should stop being a sarcastic ass and look at how stupid your last post was. You're a very ignorant kid to assume that only scouts who get paid can assess a player's game. I mean, hell, these genius Raptors scouts know more about Danny Granger than Danny Granger, right? With what I've told you about my knowledge of Granger, you still doubt that I'm qualified to talk about him?

How about this, I'll stop replying to you in this thread on one condition. From now on, any time you say that a team made a bad trade, a bad draft choice, or a bad signing, I have the right to tell you that you have no idea what you're talking about because the General Managers and scouts are the ones being paid, so they obviously know more about basketball than you do. Fair enough?

And as for your crack about recieving calls from teams to be their scouts, that's not the direction I'm going with my career. I mean, maybe you would throw a way a chance to attend University of Michigan's business school and go to some crappy second tier school to get a degree in Sports Management or something of that nature, but I've chosen a little wiser career path.

I'm sorry, but not everyone who knows basketball wants to make a career out of it.

Thanks for doing your homework on Granger's durability as well. I see you completely missed the fact that he had to miss games due to NCAA transfer regulations, and the only games he missed due to injuries recently have all been minor injuries. A big deal is made of his knee, but it was just a simple knee scope; very minor.