<div class="quote_poster">Quoting Mr.Wade:</div><div class="quote_post">Ukic is out so we can't build around him... I'd want to pick a PG in the draft next year since Ukic gunned out on us thus wasting a draft pick and a future PG. If Ukic had stayed I would have went talent wise and got Gay, he has superstar written all over him.... and if we snatched him we could trade him for a great big man if we wanted to.</div> Ukic is not gone. We own his rights and in all likelyhood he will be in a Raps jersey in 1-2 years. He could use the time to work on his body and game anyways, i'm not to worried. When he's ready, he'll get a good offer from the Raps and he'll be able to come over and we can use him....its no biggie. IMO though there should be a clause when you agree to enter the draft that if you are a pick without a gaurenteed contract but are then offered one over xxx amount per year, and the team is committing to you you HAVE to take it or at least you arent aloud to make more than that elsewhere or you'd be banned from NBA. Picks pulling out sucks.
<div class="quote_poster">Quoting 02civic:</div><div class="quote_post">its so hard for a team like the Raps and other smaller clubs to keep alot of high profile young guys arround though. They all want to play in the states for either the tax situation, living situation or just due to not understanding Canada enough. I'm not saying i'd want to trade for old old guys or guys with bad contracts...but i'd rather have a couple nice peices that will be nice for a few more years to come than another future all-star..cause we wont be able to keep them all. If we can keep CV, CB, Graham and Ukic past their rookie contracts and they develop the way i think they can its all the young core we need. A few more helpers wouldnt be a problem, but a Rudy Gay would be overkill.</div> That's exactly why Babcock made sure that the guys he drafted wanted to be here. <div class="quote_poster">Quoting Mr.Wade:</div><div class="quote_post">Ukic is out so we can't build around him... I'd want to pick a PG in the draft next year since Ukic gunned out on us thus wasting a draft pick and a future PG. If Ukic had stayed I would have went talent wise and got Gay, he has superstar written all over him.... and if we snatched him we could trade him for a great big man if we wanted to.</div> Stop with the pessimist comments man. Ukic didn't 'gun' out on us. If he really wanted to, he could've signed a 6-year deal worth 10 million Euros but instead he agreed to a 2.5 million Euros over 3 years. Think of it as a cheap development at the cost of someone else.
^ Well Ukic not coming kinda kills the drafting guys who wanted the come here thing Babcock has been saying the whole time. If the situation was that he had to finish the contract with his current team before coming, then okay. Instead, he negotiated his way out of that contract, and then got another contract from another team, that's very interesting right there.
<div class="quote_poster">Quoting og15:</div><div class="quote_post">^ Well Ukic not coming kinda kills the drafting guys who wanted the come here thing Babcock has been saying the whole time. If the situation was that he had to finish the contract with his current team before coming, then okay. Instead, he negotiated his way out of that contract, and then got another contract from another team, that's very interesting right there.</div> Ukic is 1 out of 4 guys. 3 other guys that Babcock drafted want to be in Toronto playing for the Raptors. The only reason I see why Ukic chose to go to Tau Ceramica is because he'd get 30 mpg instead of 10 mpg and therefore will be able to refine his game more there. Tau is nothing like KK-Split, it's an elite Euroleague team whereas KK-Split is kind of like a farm team.
3 out of 4 still isn't a good percentage. If you state that your goal is to bring in players who want to be part of the organization, and you draft someone who isn't fully committed, then you're not doing your job. The only reason I see Ukic going to another team is money. We can talk about how he can refine his game with another year in Europe, but the kid was ready for the NBA and would have benefited much more by playing with us. This isn't as bad a situation as Mr. Wade put it, but it definitely isn't good.
<div class="quote_poster">Quoting R_ChutneY:</div><div class="quote_post">3 out of 4 still isn't a good percentage. If you state that your goal is to bring in players who want to be part of the organization, and you draft someone who isn't fully committed, then you're not doing your job. The only reason I see Ukic going to another team is money. We can talk about how he can refine his game with another year in Europe, but the kid was ready for the NBA and would have benefited much more by playing with us. This isn't as bad a situation as Mr. Wade put it, but it definitely isn't good.</div> More money? Where do you get that? Because last time I checked he's only getting $3 million over 3-4 years with his buyout taking 1/3 of that. He's not a player who would go for more money like someone named Carlos Boozer. Mark my word on that. My impression of the situation is that several things happened at once that altered the course of events. Ukic was with KK Split - he had, I believe, decided that he was going to leave Split. It was his preference to play in the Euroleague and had attracted some interest. Then the Raps drafted him - they drafted him in the second round, but offered him first round money. Ukic appears to have agreed to those terms - meaning that he did not want more money to come to the NBA, but he did not sign the contract, still holding out for an offer to play in Europe. Apparently, there was interest from Barcelona and from TAU - but it would appear that in both cases, he was looking at being the backup - and in that case, would rather be the backup in the NBA. Then, Calderon decided he was going to test the waters in the NBA and leave TAU, opening up the starting PG spot. When this happened, Ukic decided that he would rather, for the time being, be the starting PG with TAU than be a backup in the NBA. However, it does seem likely that there is another piece to the puzzle that would explain the Calderon-TAU-Ukic Raptor connection. Did the Raptors decide to go after Calderon BEFORE or AFTER Ukic started leaning towards TAU - it would appear likely that it was AFTER, but we do not know. Or could it be that this is simply one of those situations where everyone realized what was best for everyone else - that the Raps started talking to Calderon, because he has more experience, then, when they came to terms with him (assuming that is what has happened), they encouraged Ukic to sign with TAU - so it winds up as a win-win for all sides. I heard the interview with Babcock and wondered the same thing, but Babcock also did not say "we offered Roko 2nd round money" either. When Chuck asked the question, Babcock replied in general terms to explain the situation to a casual fan, which is 95% of FAN listeners. He said something VERY close to... "Chuck, you have to understand that a 2nd round draft pick doesn't get a guaranteed contract like a 1st round pick does, so when a European player has a buyout in his contract, NBA teams aren't allowed to pay the buyout - the player does - so sometimes these players get the buyouts paid by a Euro team instead of playing in the NBA for little or no money in their first year or two. Roko obviously got a good offer from Tau, I don't know the details yet, and we always knew there was a 50/50 chance this would happen. He needs some more development anyways, so this way he does it on someone else's dime" He wasn't discussing specifics of the Roko offer, but doing some PR to explain that the Euro offer was better and that, in general terms, this is the way it goes with 2nd rounders.
<div class="quote_poster">Quoting VinKanaddy:</div><div class="quote_post">More money? Where do you get that? Because last time I checked he's only getting $3 million over 3-4 years with his buyout taking 1/3 of that. He's not a player who would go for more money like someone named Carlos Boozer. Mark my word on that. </div> He is going to get more money with this contract then he would've if he signed with the Raps. 3 mill over 3 years is still more than a second round NBA contract. And how would you know that Ukic wouldn't sign elsewhere for more money? All signs seem to show that's what happened. <div class="quote_poster">Quoting VinKanaddy:</div><div class="quote_post">Ukic was with KK Split - he had, I believe, decided that he was going to leave Split. It was his preference to play in the Euroleague and had attracted some interest. </div> If he intended to play in the Euroleague, why would he enter his name in the draft? Ukic wanted to come to the NBA this year. There were interviews with him, where he looked forward to joining an NBA team and trying to contribute. In those interviews Ukic was asked where he thought he would get drafted and he mentioned how both Toronto and Boston needed a young point guard. That suggests that he expected to be taken in the mid to late first round. Only after he was taken in the second round, did we hear rumours that he might not come over. This shows that Ukic was disappointed about not having first round guaranteed contract. He signed with Tau, because they gave him more than the standard second round contract. <div class="quote_poster">Quoting VinKanaddy:</div><div class="quote_post">Then the Raps drafted him - they drafted him in the second round, but offered him first round money. </div> Where did you find that out? I never heard that they were going to offer him the same type of money they gave Graham and CVill. <div class="quote_poster">Quoting VinKanaddy:</div><div class="quote_post">Did the Raptors decide to go after Calderon BEFORE or AFTER Ukic started leaning towards TAU - it would appear likely that it was AFTER, but we do not know. </div> It seems more likely that Babcock had Calderon's name down as an insurance in case Ukic decided to stay in Europe. We only heard about serious contract negotiation after Ukic decided to stay. Before then, it was mostly news about the Raps considering Calderon. <div class="quote_poster">Quoting VinKanaddy:</div><div class="quote_post">Or could it be that this is simply one of those situations where everyone realized what was best for everyone else - that the Raps started talking to Calderon, because he has more experience, then, when they came to terms with him (assuming that is what has happened), they encouraged Ukic to sign with TAU - so it winds up as a win-win for all sides. </div> That seems pretty farfetched, considering Babcock has repeatedly stated that he wanted Ukic here this year and Ukic is a better player than Calderon. If a Tau was the Raps farm team, then I could see that kind of cooperation, but this looks more like Tau just beat us to him and we went for what's left. Calderon looks more like an insurance in case Ukic decided to stay. <div class="quote_poster">Quoting VinKanaddy:</div><div class="quote_post">I heard the interview with Babcock and wondered the same thing, but Babcock also did not say "we offered Roko 2nd round money" either. </div> It's pretty much implied that he would pay a second round pick, second round money. <div class="quote_poster">Quoting VinKanaddy:</div><div class="quote_post">NBA teams aren't allowed to pay the buyout - the player does - so sometimes these players get the buyouts paid by a Euro team instead of playing in the NBA for little or no money in their first year or two. </div> But either way, the Raps are going to have to deal with a buyout when they want to bring Ukic over here. If not with his Split team, then they are going to have to deal with a buyout with his current team. I think your story is way too complicated and the facts suggest a simpler version. Ukic expected to drafted in the first round. This year's deep and unpredictable draft screwed him over like lots of other players. The only difference is that he's comfortable playing in Europe and doesn't have to lay everything on the line for an NBA contract. Ukic doesn't want to second round money and prefers to wait until the Raps will give him a bigger contract. You can talk about how he'll develop in Europe, but playing in the NBA right now would have been better. Either way, it's bad news for the Raps, because our point guard position is suddenly a problem for us again.
<div class="quote_poster">Quoting R_ChutneY:</div><div class="quote_post">He is going to get more money with this contract then he would've if he signed with the Raps. 3 mill over 3 years is still more than a second round NBA contract. And how would you know that Ukic wouldn't sign elsewhere for more money? All signs seem to show that's what happened. </div> Babcock wasn't going to give him a second round NBA contract. That was stated in the excerpt that I took from Babcock and Swirsky's interview. Like I said, if he was going to sign for more money he would've gone with Barcelona who offered him a 3-year 5 million Euros deal, but he didn't because he would've ended up as a backup point guard in Barcelona. <div class="quote_poster">Quoting R_ChutneY:</div><div class="quote_post">If he intended to play in the Euroleague, why would he enter his name in the draft? Ukic wanted to come to the NBA this year. There were interviews with him, where he looked forward to joining an NBA team and trying to contribute. In those interviews Ukic was asked where he thought he would get drafted and he mentioned how both Toronto and Boston needed a young point guard. That suggests that he expected to be taken in the mid to late first round. Only after he was taken in the second round, did we hear rumours that he might not come over. This shows that Ukic was disappointed about not having first round guaranteed contract. He signed with Tau, because they gave him more than the standard second round contract.</div> Why would you not? There is no such clause in the CBA that states players cannot enlist their name on the early entry list unless they were going to play for sure. Who are you to say he would've been ready for the NBA? Most people speculated that about Kukoc and he stayed overseas for 2 seasons after he got drafted by the Bulls. <div class="quote_poster">Quoting R_ChutneY:</div><div class="quote_post">Where did you find that out? I never heard that they were going to offer him the same type of money they gave Graham and CVill. </div> Babcock would have had to offer him the kind of money that late first rounders got - which is about +/- $1 million per season. The buyout was about $800,000 and there is no way that Babcock is stupid enough to offer less than half of that when he knew Ukic would've had to pay the whole amount of the buyout. <div class="quote_poster">Quoting R_ChutneY:</div><div class="quote_post">It seems more likely that Babcock had Calderon's name down as an insurance in case Ukic decided to stay in Europe. We only heard about serious contract negotiation after Ukic decided to stay. Before then, it was mostly news about the Raps considering Calderon.</div> We don't know that. And no, the rumours about the contract negotiations started way before Ukic signed with Tau. <div class="quote_poster">Quoting R_ChutneY:</div><div class="quote_post">That seems pretty farfetched, considering Babcock has repeatedly stated that he wanted Ukic here this year and Ukic is a better player than Calderon. If a Tau was the Raps farm team, then I could see that kind of cooperation, but this looks more like Tau just beat us to him and we went for what's left. Calderon looks more like an insurance in case Ukic decided to stay. </div> Babcock actually said he knew there was a 50/50 chance of this happening. He never once said Ukic was a better player than Calderon. Calderon has way more experience than Ukic and is more physically and mentally ready for the NBA, not to mention that Tau and KK-Split are on completely different levels in terms of competitions. <div class="quote_poster">Quoting R_ChutneY:</div><div class="quote_post">It's pretty much implied that he would pay a second round pick, second round money.</div> I don't see the implied logic there. <div class="quote_poster">Quoting R_ChutneY:</div><div class="quote_post">But either way, the Raps are going to have to deal with a buyout when they want to bring Ukic over here. If not with his Split team, then they are going to have to deal with a buyout with his current team.</div> Of course they will have to deal with the buyout, but now it's different because he would be treated as a free agent, instead of a rookie second round pick. That makes a big difference because now Babcock has the upper hand in negotiating how much we want to pay for the buyout. <div class="quote_poster">Quoting R_ChutneY:</div><div class="quote_post">I think your story is way too complicated and the facts suggest a simpler version. Ukic expected to drafted in the first round. This year's deep and unpredictable draft screwed him over like lots of other players. The only difference is that he's comfortable playing in Europe and doesn't have to lay everything on the line for an NBA contract. Ukic doesn't want to second round money and prefers to wait until the Raps will give him a bigger contract. You can talk about how he'll develop in Europe, but playing in the NBA right now would have been better. Either way, it's bad news for the Raps, because our point guard position is suddenly a problem for us again.</div> It may be complicated, but it's quite a feasible scenario. How do you know that playing in the NBA behind Alston and Calderon would've been better? That gives him a leftover playing time of about 5 mpg and that would've hindered his development, if anything. We will have two rookies and a PG from an elite Euroleague team - Villanueva, Graham and Calderon - and two rookies developing overseas in Ukic and Slokar. I think it is the ideal situation because it puts us in a cycle that lets us replenish youth and talent on the roster every 1-2 seasons. Think about it. Just as Jalen Rose, Eric Williams, Aaron Williams, and Lamond Murray comes off the book and Rafer enters his 30's, we can bring Ukic over - a much more refined and in prime Ukic that is - and have Slokar on the roster, as well as whoever we get with the two first round picks and one second round pick in the 2006 Draft. On top of that, we'll have approximately $20 million in cap room to bring in the right pieces to the puzzle. When you consider that Bosh will be entering his prime in two years, I believe that we have a shot at being a contender.
I know what you're trying to say about the contract negotiations. And it's not like I think this is turning out to be a major mistake for the franchise. It's just that the I feel the reason that Ukic didn't sign with us is much simpler than that. He showed all indications of wanting to play in the NBA and when he didn't get the guaranteed contract, he decided to get another contract in Europe. To me that just shows that he wasn't willing to lay it all on the line. It's pretty smart on Ukic's part, because when we sign him to a contract, he's going to make much more money. I find nothing wrong with this, I just felt that Ukic was ready for NBA competition now and would've liked for him to develop with our other young players. Also, I don't think that he would've played behind Calderon. The fact that Tau signed him instead of Calderon shows that they believe Ukic is the better player.
<div class="quote_poster">Quoting R_ChutneY:</div><div class="quote_post">I know what you're trying to say about the contract negotiations. And it's not like I think this is turning out to be a major mistake for the franchise. It's just that the I feel the reason that Ukic didn't sign with us is much simpler than that. He showed all indications of wanting to play in the NBA and when he didn't get the guaranteed contract, he decided to get another contract in Europe. To me that just shows that he wasn't willing to lay it all on the line. It's pretty smart on Ukic's part, because when we sign him to a contract, he's going to make much more money. I find nothing wrong with this, I just felt that Ukic was ready for NBA competition now and would've liked for him to develop with our other young players. Also, I don't think that he would've played behind Calderon. The fact that Tau signed him instead of Calderon shows that they believe Ukic is the better player.</div> There were many things playing into Ukic's decision of staying in Europe. There was the money factor, like you suggested, there was the issue of Calderon discussing a contract with Toronto, and then there was the FA signing date being pushed back a week. If the NBA and the NBAPA got their acts together and dried the ink on the original date (July 21st) set for the moratorium to be lifted, Ukic would most likely be in a Toronto Raptors uniform right now. Tau had to sign Ukic because Calderon was determined to try the NBA, not because they believed Ukic was a better player. He will certainly be a better player than Calderon in a year or two though.
Yes Vinkanaddy, as Chutney said I feel that you are making matters more complicated in your logic and thinking. It was apparent that Ukic wanted to play in the NBA or else he woulnd't have put his name into the NBA Draft... it's simple logic really. It seems your argument is that he didn't want to be a backup point guard on an NBA team which is why he wanted to go back to Europe... IMO he wouldn't be able to start on any NBA at the moment. Boston who he had in mind to be picked by... has Banks, West and possibly Payton. The only team I could see him start on would be Atlanta and even that would be a longshot. (Plus it could never happen since htey had a number 2 pick then a 2nd rounder). It's every players dream to play in the NBA, there's no doubt about that. And Ukic wanted to play there. The reason why he bolted to Europe is because he was selected in the 2nd round, and felt all the teams didn't have confidence in his skills and didn't think he was good enough to merit their first round selection. Plus there's the money issue, which every player is concerned about, no question about it.
Let's put it this way. He wanted to play in the NBA, but not as bad as most of people thought he did. He's looking to refine his game a bit in Europe for a year or two, and then after proving that he is the real deal, coming over to the NBA. I'm saying the situation is not as bad as some people put it, and the reason that Ukic decided to stay in Europe is not because of money alone. He is not like that. EDIT: Hell.. Even Fran Vasquez, whom the Magic selected with their 11th pick is going to stay in Europe for a couple of years. 11th! Link
<div class="quote_poster">Quote:</div><div class="quote_post">He is not like that.</div> ...and you know this how? I'm not saying he's a bad guy, but their's no possible way of us knowing it wasn't ALL about money, and he's just saying some other stuff to make his decision more reasonable. Om the other hand. maybe it's all about his development, and the money was just an extra boost, either way, we actually don't know.
The only thing that I hope is that the increased PT in Europe improves his game. He is still young at 21. I hope we get Calderon and he would give us an option in the future if Ukic doesn't pan out(gets injured or isn't improving whatsoever and doesn't deserve a NBA contract). <div class="quote_poster">Quoting og15:</div><div class="quote_post">Ouch, that was harsh lol</div> If we were to get Rudy Gay, I'm just worried that all over the states and Canada that homosexuals will be wearing Raptors jersies. Not because they like the Raptors, or because they support them, for wrong reasons would they wear them . I'm have nothing against the guy, I just think that homosexuality is rather disgusting. In the real circumstance that we drafted him, I wouldn't ask a man to change his name.
<div class="quote_poster">Quoting og15:</div><div class="quote_post">No, their was no chance of Bosh making it last year, people overatted that quite a bit. I love Bosh and all, but his total year numbers were not his numbers at the All-Star break, and even if they were, they didn't really surpass the other candidates. To be exact: 18.0 PPG | 9.4 RPG | 2.0 APG | 1.53 BPG | 7.2 FTA | 46.7% FG | 38.0 MPG</div> I agree that Bosh didn't deserve to be an all-star the last season. Bosh will probably be considered a forward next year and has only shown signs of improvement with a bigger role in the Raptors offense as he post Vince statistics shown by you. Jameson has his knee bothering him, and I see his minutes declining from his current considerably high 38.3 mpg. (19th in the nba) Toronto also has a considerably large fan base, and most bball fans in Canada support the Raptors and we have some passionate fans. As can be seen by our good attendance even during a mediocre season. Personally I think Bosh has a good shot at being an all-star as long as he shows his heart on the court and remains passionate for the game, he also seems to be a nice guy off the court. He doesn't give much reason not to vote for him .
Jamison surprised me though, as he has been an ironman throughout his career, and even when he was playing PF in the West, he did not get injured. He might be back to his ironman status unless the knee continues to bother him.
<div class="quote_poster">Quoting og15:</div><div class="quote_post">...and you know this how? I'm not saying he's a bad guy, but their's no possible way of us knowing it wasn't ALL about money, and he's just saying some other stuff to make his decision more reasonable. Om the other hand. maybe it's all about his development, and the money was just an extra boost, either way, we actually don't know.</div> Because I have followed him since his days in the Split Cadet team as a 18 year old highschooler. He is a character guy and he isn't someone who will drool at money.
Og15 its good to have you around, it seemed you were inactive for a while. I agree that Jamison has been an ironman, he did hold the current streak for most consecutive games played until a month before playoffs. Now our Mo Pete holds the current longest consecutive games. I heard reports that he has tendonitis in his right knee. He underwent arthroscopic surgery to remove scar tissue in his right knee on may 26th. I believe that he is a hard-working guy, and that he will get through it through re-hab and hard work. But he probably will have reduced minutes for a while, and will be a tad slower. Usually knee injuries don't get much better especially tendonitis and cartiledge loss, so I expect maybe 5 minutes less per game once he is fully healthy, and a ppg to 4 ppg off his scoring.
I'm 50/50 on how the Wizards do next year without Hughes. I mean it's sketchy for real. If they do good you'll see Arenas and possibly Jamison on the all-star team once again... although the latter is least likely for known reasons. I really can see Bosh becoming an All-star next year. He has all the tools, except for team wins. The team MUST do good in order for him to become an all-star.
