<div class="quote_poster">Quoting Trip:</div><div class="quote_post">No one's saying that. It's what Babcock is doing that is making everyone think like this. By drafting Villaneuva with a lottery pick, it is clear that the Raptors are set up for choosing one of either Villaneuva and Bosh for the long term. Both play the same position, are close in age, and their contracts expire within two years of each other. Obviously, if Villaneuva plays up to the expectations that a player picked this high would carry, Babcock would definitely have to think about picking one of the two for the long term and dealing the other before he walks as a free agent. If Villaneuva doesn't work out, then we should trade him somewhere when he still has some "potential".</div> It becomes really evident that you're a Rockets fan. Why do you think Babcock has to 'pick' one or the other? Bosh and Villanueva themselves have said that they will play alongside and complement each other. You see, you don't need a 'true' centre in the Eastern Conference because the only legit centre here is Shaquille O'Neal; and he's aging. Detroit proved it by winning a championship with Ben and Rasheed - two power forwards - and making the finals this year with Ben / Rasheed / Antonio. The thing people are concerned about is Bosh / Villanueva's strength and weight, but they are still young and can put on another 10~15 lbs easy. If you ask me, Bosh at 240 lbs and Villanueva at 250 lbs doesn't sound too bad at all.
Personally I think it would be absurd to trade Bosh for anyone at this point in time. Bosh is 21, and is the most valuable player we have in this franchise. Deception, do you honestly think that it would be smart to trade our best player over the next ten years?
<div class="quote_poster">Quoting VinKanaddy:</div><div class="quote_post">It becomes really evident that you're a Rockets fan. Why do you think Babcock has to 'pick' one or the other? Bosh and Villanueva themselves have said that they will play alongside and complement each other. You see, you don't need a 'true' centre in the Eastern Conference because the only legit centre here is Shaquille O'Neal; and he's aging. Detroit proved it by winning a championship with Ben and Rasheed - two power forwards - and making the finals this year with Ben / Rasheed / Antonio. The thing people are concerned about is Bosh / Villanueva's strength and weight, but they are still young and can put on another 10~15 lbs easy. If you ask me, Bosh at 240 lbs and Villanueva at 250 lbs doesn't sound too bad at all.</div> Hey, I might be a Rockets fan but I live in Mississauga, so I do know more about the Raptors than most fans of other teams. It's true that no teams has to have a true center to succeed, but we've also seen from Bosh's rookie season that he, at least, isn't fit to play center. I don't believe that Bosh has put on any significant weight and added strength from his rookie season to now. Bosh still has bad leg strength and has trouble holding his place against stronger power forwards. It seems to me that Bosh is of the genetically wiry type; no matter how much he tries, he isn't able to put on substantial weight after his ceiling weight wise has been reached. Villaneuva meanwhile has more muscle to him and is stronger, but he doesn't have any defined low post moves and lacks a killer mentality. Of course, he has room to improve due to his young age, but when you have never played center full time (I don't think), it's pretty hard to learn a position and become a starter at that spot in a short time. Could CV3 learn to become a competent center within 3 years by the time his contract runs out? Having two lottery picks who play the same position and would both grant large contract extensions would not be so wise.
See this is where I don't understand the Raps drafting. In a best case scenario, Villanueva and Bosh are both legit starters. Bosh is definite 4, while Villanueva has shown that he is equally comfortable playing the 3 and 4. If it comes down to it, we could start both of them. But what do you do with Graham? He can't play the 2, and so far in the summer league has shown that he's a 3/4 tweener. When you realize that none of them can play center, you come to the conclusion that one of our young players is destined to be a backup on our team.
<div class="quote_poster">Quoting R_ChutneY:</div><div class="quote_post">See this is where I don't understand the Raps drafting. In a best case scenario, Villanueva and Bosh are both legit starters. Bosh is definite 3, while Villanueva has shown that he is equally comfortable playing the 3 and 4. If it comes down to it, we could start both of them. But what do you do with Graham? He can't play the 2, and so far in the summer league has shown that he's a 3/4 tweener. When you realize that none of them can play center, you come to the conclusion that one of our young players is destined to be a backup on our team.</div> Bosh is a 3?? I cant believe that some people here are even considering a Bosh trade at any point. Thats crazy and just plain sad. Bosh is the man, he's 21 and big guys develop later. This guy is a future top 5 for sure top 10 player...he's not tradeable
I can't believe people would actually consider trading Bosh. This guy is the the next Kevin Garnett. You don't trade talent like that.
<div class="quote_poster">Quoting SkiptoMyLue11:</div><div class="quote_post">Deception, do you honestly think that it would be smart to trade our best player over the next ten years?</div> he isn't even the best player on the team now, its jalen rose. jalen is the dude that takes the important shots, bosh is the dude thats fumbles the ball in the last minutes of the game. and yeah, i acknowledge that rose has many defensive lapses but as i've argued bosh is an overrated defender.
Well, if Charlie V. is better then Bosh i say trade Bosh for at least an allstar center, but if Charlie is just "good" i would trade him instead, although you probably wont get the same value as Bosh
Crazy talk. Guys like Bosh come around once in a blue moon....its highly highly highly unlikely that CV will even approach Bosh's level of talent. I think this thread was started by a guy that doubts Bosh's skills. Would he say "hey if say this about Lebron, Carmelo or Wade" if they had guys drafted this year in their same position? I doubt it. Bosh is amazing...I dont know what you're talking about deception saying Bosh isnt the best player on the team...you dont know anything it would seem. Sure Jalen takes alot of the key shots but Bosh has had is fair share and he's more often the not the reason why the Raps are close enough to have "important shots". Jalen is a talented offensive player, but so is Bosh and Bosh also happens to play defense...something Jalen hasnt figured out yet. Bosh an overrated defender...umm...no! Dont look at the stats, sure he gets some blocks but his defensive hussle is very solid. He plays with his heart and gives 100% at all times. He wont back down from stronger players in the post and his lateral quickness lets him keep up with guys on the perimeter. He's no defensive player of the year or even 1st team all-defensive, but he's coming along nicely. Bosh is the next Garnett. Raptor fans please stop even thinking about trading Bosh or seriously thinking "if CV is better..." every team needs a franchise player and this guy is it for us, and to top it off he's happy to be here and wants to say. He deserves better. In my mind there are only a few untradable pieces in the NBA right now. in no order they are Wade, Lebron, Bosh, Duncan, O'neal, Garnett, T-mac, Amare, Bryant
<div class="quote_poster">Quoting Trip:</div><div class="quote_post">Hey, I might be a Rockets fan but I live in Mississauga, so I do know more about the Raptors than most fans of other teams. It's true that no teams has to have a true center to succeed, but we've also seen from Bosh's rookie season that he, at least, isn't fit to play center. I don't believe that Bosh has put on any significant weight and added strength from his rookie season to now. Bosh still has bad leg strength and has trouble holding his place against stronger power forwards. It seems to me that Bosh is of the genetically wiry type; no matter how much he tries, he isn't able to put on substantial weight after his ceiling weight wise has been reached. Villaneuva meanwhile has more muscle to him and is stronger, but he doesn't have any defined low post moves and lacks a killer mentality. Of course, he has room to improve due to his young age, but when you have never played center full time (I don't think), it's pretty hard to learn a position and become a starter at that spot in a short time. Could CV3 learn to become a competent center within 3 years by the time his contract runs out? Having two lottery picks who play the same position and would both grant large contract extensions would not be so wise.</div> Nobody said Bosh has to play centre. I don't want him to and I'm sure Sam Mitchell would try in every possible way to avoid playing him there. Are you serious about him not putting on any significant weight since his rookie season? Because if it is listed correctly and I remember correctly, Bosh was barely 210 lbs when he came out of the draft, in contrast to his listed weight of 235 lbs in the beginning of last season. He may actually be closer to 230 lbs than 235, but that's still 20 lbs of muscle mass gained over a season. If you looked at Bosh in his rookie season, he was really a tweener. His neck and his limbs in general were so skinny that you almost felt bad for him. But if you looked at him last season, you would have immediately recognized that he had bulked up. His neck was thicker, his shoulders were wider, and his arms and legs were thicker. Because of the added strength, he was able to hold his own against the likes of Tim Duncan and Kevin Garnett. Of course he is never going to be able to lock down a Shaquille O'Neal, but how many players can, if any? Villanueva plays a lot like Derrick Coleman, except the fact that he lacks low-post moves. But then he's only 20 and he can develop that area of his game. Even if he can't, why do we have to have him in the low-post? I personally think that with Bosh and Villanueva, they're just going to create so much matchup problems because they will force the opposing bigs to come out to the perimeter to guard them, thus allowing the likes of Jalen Rose / Joey Graham and Mo Pete to penetrate easier and post up on the opponent's backcourt players. If he plays center, the only thing he will have to learn is boxing out and locking down other centres on defense. By the way, under the new collective bargaining agreement, players are signed to a 2-year contract with team options for another two seasons, making it a 4-year contract. EDIT: By the way, deception, what's wrong with you man? You wanted Vince gone and now that he's gone you want Bosh gone too?
<div class="quote_poster">Quote:</div><div class="quote_post">Nobody said Bosh has to play centre. I don't want him to and I'm sure Sam Mitchell would try in every possible way to avoid playing him there. Are you serious about him not putting on any significant weight since his rookie season? Because if it is listed correctly and I remember correctly, Bosh was barely 210 lbs when he came out of the draft, in contrast to his listed weight of 235 lbs in the beginning of last season. He may actually be closer to 230 lbs than 235, but that's still 20 lbs of muscle mass gained over a season. If you looked at Bosh in his rookie season, he was really a tweener. His neck and his limbs in general were so skinny that you almost felt bad for him. But if you looked at him last season, you would have immediately recognized that he had bulked up. His neck was thicker, his shoulders were wider, and his arms and legs were thicker. Because of the added strength, he was able to hold his own against the likes of Tim Duncan and Kevin Garnett. Of course he is never going to be able to lock down a Shaquille O'Neal, but how many players can, if any? </div> Bosh was listed as 225 lbs when he came out of college. Trip is right that he has not put on any significant weight, at most he's put on 5-10 lbs, but that's not significant weight. Also when we played Duncan and KG, Donyell Marshall was the one that really put the clamps on them defensively, not Bosh, those were probably Donyell's best defensive games of the season.
<div class="quote_poster">Quoting og15:</div><div class="quote_post">Bosh was listed as 225 lbs when he came out of college. Trip is right that he has not put on any significant weight, at most he's put on 5-10 lbs, but that's not significant weight. Also when we played Duncan and KG, Donyell Marshall was the one that really put the clamps on them defensively, not Bosh, those were probably Donyell's best defensive games of the season.</div> Uh, no. He was listed at 210 lbs on virtually every draft profile. Even his Georgia Tech profile has him listed at 210 lbs. http://ramblinwreck.collegesports.com/spor...sh_chris00.html The point is, if you didn't notice that Bosh had gotten bigger, you should consult an optician. Donyell's only defensive play that impressed me was when we played the Heat and he held down Shaquille O'Neal for an entire half. I'm pretty sure Bosh primarily covered Duncan and Garnett whenever we played them last season.
Who cares about the other sites, at least bring a credible site for the argument Chicago Draft Camp where they actually took his stats: http://collegebasketballnews.scout.com/2/115362.html - 225lbs http://www.hoopshype.com/draft/chris_bosh.htm - 225 lbs http://sports.espn.go.com/nba/draft/d05/tr...?playerId=18511 - 225lbs If you want it right from the Bulls website: http://www.nba.com/media/bulls/lottery_vitals_03.pdf - 225lbs The only one that truly matters is the Bulls Draft Camo one, so that argument is over, the most Bosh has gained is 5-10lbs, and yes I can personally see that his arms got slightly bigger, but his strength is not much improved from last season.
I agree that Villanueva and Bosh will create matchup problems for the other teams. But I don't think you realize that they will create matchup problems for our defense. When they're together one of them will have to cover a 3 or a 5. Bosh has been pushed around by players with just pure bulk. And Villanueva doesn't have the lateral quickness to cover most NBA 3's.
http://www.nbadraft.net/profiles/chrisbosh.htm - 210 lbs http://ramblinwreck.collegesports.com/spor...sh_chris00.html - 210 lbs (That's the official Georgia Tech site) Err.. where did you get that hoopshype source from? http://www.hoopshype.com/players/chris_bosh.htm - 210 lbs. http://www.realgm.com/src_playerfile/832/chris_bosh/ - 210 lbs. I must say the listed weight varies from source to source. The thing is, you don't have to be concerned with questions like 'Oh why isn't Bosh getting bigger or gaining more weight than he has?' because he is still growing. It's hard to put on weight when your body is growing taller. (Example: Jonathan Bender) He was 6'10 in shoes when he came out of the draft and now he's 6'10 3/4 without shoes and 7' with shoes. His wingspan increased to 7'4 and his standing reach is now 9'2. Why are you guys so concerned about the positions? With Villanueva and Bosh we will have a good sized frontcourt, regardless of who plays where. Yes, Villanueva will have a hard time in his rookie season, but Bosh went through that too, and he was even skinnier and weaker than CV. With all those disadvantages, Bosh still managed to put up 11 and 7 every night. We'll have two forwards instead of a center and a forward, but so what? It's not like we ever had a true center, aside from Olajuwon who played one season as a Raptor. If worst comes to worst and Joey Graham doesn't pan out as he's supposed to, we can then think about putting Villanueva at SF. Until then, assume the frontcourt will be CV / CB / JG.
