Which conference has more legitimite stars? For the sake of this argument we'll define a legitimite star as a player that a team could build a franchise around. Look at: stats, clutch performance, marketability, all star appearances, playoff performance... If there are more qualities that you think a legitimate star might have, then justify them in your response. __________________________________________________________ Better all around conference: West Conference with more stars: West West totally out gains the East on superstar players. There are at least six players in the Western conference that can't touch more than one or two players mabey three on the East. Kobe Bryant, Kevin Garnett, Tim Duncan, Steve Nash, Tracy McGrady, and Dirk Nowitzki are players in the West that are complete superstar players in the NBA. On the other side, the East, you can name Shaquille O'Neal, and mabey Lebron James and Allen Iverson, but the West CLEARLY wins in all around star power. This is a side note: The Western conference players must be doing SOMETHING right, the West have won 6 out of the last 7 championships. Conference with better stats: West So far, this season, the stars of the Wests' have combined for a total of 475 team wins to the Easts 400 team wins. The NBA's leading scorer in PPG is in the East, (Allen Iverson) but, the 2nd, 3rd, 4th, and 5th, leading scorers in the NBA are all from the West. (Bryant, Nowitzki, Stoudemire, and McGrady.) The leader in RPG is Kevin Garnett from the West and four of the top five leaders in RPG ARE from the West. The leader in APG is from the West, Steve Nash, and the leader in BGP is also from the West, Andrei Kirilenko. The West lead in nearly all major stats... Conference with more clutch performers: West The East has their share of cluth players, but not on the level of the West. The East have players like Paul Pierce and Allen Iverson, and a couple of retirement bound clutch performers in Reggie Miller and Allan Houston, but that doesn't even make a dent at the solid core of clutch players the West has... Robert Horry, Kobe Bryant, Derek Fisher, Tim Duncan, Tracy McGrady, Dirk Nowitzki, and Kevin Garnett. There are more solid clutch players in the NBA, but not this clutch. Clutchness is a very important attribute, just ask Kobe Bryant, Robert Horry, and Reggie Miller. Where would they be without it? Conference with better marketability: West Teams such as Los Angeles, Denver, San Antonio, Houston, and Dallas are very important. The Texas teams, Houston (Yao Ming's jersey sells all around the world), Dallas, and San Antonio are all solid teams, and have solid players, which makes the league more green paper. The Media and market want Lebron James out of Cleveland and into a big City such as, New York, Chicago, or Los Angeles so he will have better marketability. Cleveland doesn't have the fans, money, or the wins to be a big organization such as NY, LA, or CHI. Kobe Bryant's marketability may have slipped a bit due to his rape alligations, but he and Yao bring the West atop the East for better sales and marketablilty. Conference with more all star player appearances: East It's plain and simple. The trades the the East teams have made, have brought over many aging superstars/ all stars from the West. It's not that the East is a better conference, they just have a lot of age and experience on their side. It's not really a major stat, but does bring a certain confidence level edge to the East... More all star apperances, the more confident a player you are for the remainer of the season/ career. Conference with a better Playoff history: East The East has an advantage on most championships won all time with 36 to the Wests' 22 championships. This is really a broad topic, but at one point the East won 13 STRAIGHT CHAMPIONSHIPS BACK IN THE LATE 50'S TO EARLY 70'S! We may never see that type of domination by one conference ever again. Like I said Playoff performance is such a broad topic, but keeping it in our time (80's, 90's, today) the East has owned the West until the 98- 99 season when the San Antonio Spurs beat the New York Knicks to win the championship, and from that season on, the West has won five of the last six championships, no Jordan for the East, not many rings...
<div class="quote_poster">Quote:</div><div class="quote_post">Conference with more stars: West West totally out gains the East on superstar players. There are at least six players in the Western conference that can't touch more than one or two players mabey three on the East. Kobe Bryant, Kevin Garnett, Tim Duncan, Steve Nash, Tracy McGrady, and Dirk Nowitzki are players in the West that are complete superstar players in the NBA. On the other side, the East, you can name Shaquille O'Neal, and mabey Lebron James and Allen Iverson, but the West CLEARLY wins in all around star power. This is a side note: The Western conference players must be doing SOMETHING right, the West have won 6 out of the last 7 championships.</div> Nash has had one superstar year so far, and although it was VERY good I wouldn't call him a superstar yet. He's getting older, although I really like Nash. You seem to forget about so many East players. Ther'es Shaq, DWade, Lebron, Vince (after traded to NJ), Lebron, Ben Wallace, Jermaine, Arenas. Although I do agree that the West has more big stars. The East has more rising stars, if that counts for anything. <div class="quote_poster">Quote:</div><div class="quote_post">Conference with more clutch performers: West The East has their share of cluth players, but not on the level of the West. The East have players like Paul Pierce and Allen Iverson, and a couple of retirement bound clutch performers in Reggie Miller and Allan Houston, but that doesn't even make a dent at the solid core of clutch players the West has... Robert Horry, Kobe Bryant, Derek Fisher, Tim Duncan, Tracy McGrady, Dirk Nowitzki, and Kevin Garnett. There are more solid clutch players in the NBA, but not this clutch. Clutchness is a very important attribute, just ask Kobe Bryant, Robert Horry, and Reggie Miller. Where would they be without it?</div> I can consider DWade clutch, he's proven himself to be very clutch. VC can be called clutch to add to your short eastern conference list. You seem to be short changing the Eastern conference, while inflating the West, by saying Dirk is clutch and Fisher who made (in my memory) one lucky shot. Clutch is defined by countless shots made in dying seconds and in pressure situations not just once or twice. And to answer your question about where Kobe would be without clutchness. He'd still be considered a great player. Same with Reggie. But just not the same. <div class="quote_poster">Quote:</div><div class="quote_post">Conference with better marketability: West Teams such as Los Angeles, Denver, San Antonio, Houston, and Dallas are very important. The Texas teams, Houston (Yao Ming's jersey sells all around the world), Dallas, and San Antonio are all solid teams, and have solid players, which makes the league more green paper. The Media and market want Lebron James out of Cleveland and into a big City such as, New York, Chicago, or Los Angeles so he will have better marketability. Cleveland doesn't have the fans, money, or the wins to be a big organization such as NY, LA, or CHI. Kobe Bryant's marketability may have slipped a bit due to his rape alligations, but he and Yao bring the West atop the East for better sales and marketablilty.</div> Lebron is in the East there fore the East has more marketability. Why? Because Lebron is the new NBA icon. DWade is up there as well. Those 2 young rising stars are creating a big stir in the media. Throw Shaq, VC, A.I and Big Ben in the mix and you have the East. The west has more big men, who are known to not be able to market easily because 'small men' get more fans, etc.
<div class="quote_poster">Quote:</div><div class="quote_post">Conference with better marketability: West Teams such as Los Angeles, Denver, San Antonio, Houston, and Dallas are very important. The Texas teams, Houston (Yao Ming's jersey sells all around the world), Dallas, and San Antonio are all solid teams, and have solid players, which makes the league more green paper. The Media and market want Lebron James out of Cleveland and into a big City such as, New York, Chicago, or Los Angeles so he will have better marketability. Cleveland doesn't have the fans, money, or the wins to be a big organization such as NY, LA, or CHI. Kobe Bryant's marketability may have slipped a bit due to his rape alligations, but he and Yao bring the West atop the East for better sales and marketablilty.</div> No way. LeBron James, Vince Carter, Allen Iverson and Shaq are marketing gods. The West players have nothing against those four individual guys.
Actually I think the East has more bright stars for the future, but the West is still beating them right now. If you would like to look at the youth in the NBA, the East wins out hands down. The Young stars in the west are Yao Ming, T-Mac, Kobe, Amare Stoudemire, and Carmello Anthony. The east has Lebron, Wade, Bosh and the Rookies Bogut, Marvin Williams, Deron Williams, Gerald Green. So at the moment, alot of these eastern stars are not as bign ames as the western stars, but these players are younger meaning that the East will become better as these players get older. That being said, these players could always be traded among the conferences, but there seems to be an investment in these players being franchise guys. ie. Lebron, Wade and Bosh. And you never know, Darko Milicic might start playing as well as his draft pick implies hahahhahaha.
<div class="quote_poster">Quoting Avery:</div><div class="quote_post">No way. LeBron James, Vince Carter, Allen Iverson and Shaq are marketing gods. The West players have nothing against those four individual guys.</div> Agreed, the East stars are very marketable. The only west stars i see as coming remotely close to these guys are T-Mac, Kobe (hes lost many followers though), and KG. Some of the other west stars such as Duncan, Nash, and Nowitzki are great players but just dont translate well into mass marketing.
West- Kobe Allen KG Amare Nash Duncan Manu Melo Davis JRich Bibby Peja T Mac Yao Dirk Marion East AI VC Shaq D Wade Pierce Kidd Jefferson SAR Marbury Bosh Rip Big Ben Chauncey Rasheed Lebron CWebb Jermaine Artest Francis Josh Smith JJ To me the East has more starts and is way more marketable with Dwade Shaq LEbron AI and VC.
<div class="quote_poster">Quote:</div><div class="quote_post">West- Kobe Allen KG Amare Nash Duncan Manu Melo Davis JRich Bibby Peja T Mac Yao Dirk Marion East AI VC Shaq D Wade Pierce Kidd Jefferson SAR Marbury Bosh Rip Big Ben Chauncey Rasheed Lebron CWebb Jermaine Artest Francis Josh Smith JJ</div> I think he was referring to people in the mould of being superstars, not just stars. Also I wouldn't call SAR, Billups, CWebb, Rasheed stars anymore. Just very good players. Josh Smith is nowhere near being a star right now. Just a highlight reel.
Everything that I have to say, has already been said. <div class="quote_poster">Quoting playmaker31:</div><div class="quote_post">West- Kobe Allen KG Amare Nash Duncan Manu Melo Davis JRich Bibby Peja T Mac Yao Dirk Marion East AI VC Shaq D Wade Pierce Kidd Jefferson SAR Marbury Bosh Rip Big Ben Chauncey Rasheed Lebron CWebb Jermaine Artest Francis Josh Smith JJ </div> Uhhh...Josh Smith a star? SAR, Rip and Sheed aren't stars either, and you can make a case for Billups.
<div class="quote_poster">Quote:</div><div class="quote_post">The only west stars i see as coming remotely close to these guys are T-Mac, Kobe (hes lost many followers though), and KG.</div> You forgot about Yao. <div class="quote_poster">Quoting playmaker31:</div><div class="quote_post">To me the East has more starts</div> Quantity wise, the East might have more stars, but quality wise the West has the upper hand. You have people like Marbury, Bosh and Jefferson comaped to lower echelon stars in the West such as AK47, Bibby and J-Rich, and you see the difference. The low echelon stars in the West could aruably be in the second tier among stars in the East. That's the biggest benefeciary to the West as far as stars goes.
Although i think the West is the better conference , i would go with the East on who has the best stars. in the East you have D-Wade which is doing his thing with the Heat, there are many others but i just pointed out D-Wade.
<div class="quote_poster">Quoting Avery:</div><div class="quote_post">You forgot about Yao. Quantity wise, the East might have more stars, but quality wise the West has the upper hand. You have people like Marbury, Bosh and Jefferson comaped to lower echelon stars in the West such as AK47, Bibby and J-Rich, and you see the difference. The low echelon stars in the West could aruably be in the second tier among stars in the East. That's the biggest benefeciary to the West as far as stars goes.</div> maybe you're right for the moment. But i think its a certainty that Bosh will trump all 5 of those guys you mentioned...he's only 21 years old. East has more young stars easy. West is the best right now..but in 3 years it will be east and it will stay that way for a while then go back west. Lebron, Bosh, D Wade, Okafor, Hinrich, Gordan, Howard and plus the unproven but still capable of star power Bogut, Marvin Williams, Josh Smith and even Darko. West has Amare, Melo,...umm..maybe a few more but no were near comparable. They're are a few newly drafted players with potential like Paul, Deron Williams, Webster but I still dont think the West can rival the East in any way shape or form in terms of young talent. Bosh, Wade, Lebron All for President And i disagree with the guy above who says the West "completely dominates the PF and C postion" EAST CENTERS OF NOTE: Shaq Big Z Ben Wallace WEST CENTERS OF NOTE: Yao Amare Brad Miller All the other centers are rather trivial...west might have slightly better overall centers, but not a domination. And seriously..if you were a coach for the olympic squad which 3 centers would you want on your squad. I'd bet most would say East big 3. PF of note in EAST J. Oneal Chris Webber Chris Bosh A. Walker Okafor Howard Eddy Curry Rahim PF of the West Duncan Garnett K. Martin Marion ... ... ... (name me some more i'm having a brain fart) Anyways...i dont think its a domination...its close, but i would give a slight edge to the West CURRENTLY
I agree with playmaker on some stance but yeah C-Webb, SAR, and Sheed I wouldn`t exactly call any of them stars. And Josh Smith and Chris Bosh have a long way to go before they become stars.
<div class="quote_poster">Quote:</div><div class="quote_post">PF of note in EAST J. Oneal Chris Webber Chris Bosh A. Walker Okafor Howard Eddy Curry Rahim PF of the West Duncan Garnett K. Martin Marion ... ... ... (name me some more i'm having a brain fart)</div> First off, I would like to say the West dominates in the SF to PF to C positions. I love the East, but let's not be biased. To your West PF list add Brand, Gasol, Boozer, Dirk... how can you put Walker, SAR... for the East.
<div class="quote_poster">Quote:</div><div class="quote_post">I can consider DWade clutch, he's proven himself to be very clutch.</div> He's also proven he can choke in these situations. I hear he's got 4 winners and 3 misses. A clutch performer would have had a rate of 6-1 instead of 4-3. There are stars, and then there are superstars. These are the only players I would consider superstars from each conference: West Kevin Garnett Tim Duncan Kobe Bryant Tracy McGrady(hesitant because he is on the borderline of star/superstar) East Shaquille O'Neal Allen Iverson(hesitant because he is on the borderline of star/superstar) You can't call LeBron James a superstar. He's marketable in America but otherwise no. I live in England and I can tell that nobody knows who LeBron James is but everyone knows who Shaquille O'Neal is. Shaq is the most marketable worldwide out of the lot. Allen Iverson is also fairly known and alot of people have heard of Kobe Bryant but some find it hard to put the name to face. <div class="quote_poster">Quote:</div><div class="quote_post">Look at: stats, clutch performance, marketability, all star appearances, playoff performance... If there are more qualities that you think a legitimate star might have, then justify them in your response. </div> If thats what we're going by, then Kobe Bryant and Kevin Garnett fit all of them categories. I wouldn't call Tim Duncan clutch or Shaquille O'Neal clutch as they have missed crucial free throws. Although Shaq has made a few clutch free throws. AI doesn't have enough further playoff appearances and the same goes for T-Mac.
lets keep this going by making an argument for some second tier players (ie: Rip Hamilton, Michael Redd, Pau Gasol, Lamar Odom) as legitimite stars. Notice that the question did not say "all stars" or "superstars" per se, but a player that a team could build a franchise around. __________________________________________________________ Superstars, Regular stars...or "legitimate" stars...it makes no difference...the west has more... You talk guys like Manu Ginobili...how sick is this guy...pretty soon he's going to belong in my first post...the guy is an extremely good scorer, made his first all-star appearence (AND RIGHTFULLY SO), and I forgot all about him...that tells you how underrated the guy is...he's also a very good defensive player He's 12th in the league in steals...he gets 16/4/4 in 30 minutes...and can go off for 20 + easily if the Spurs needed him to... Then you have Pau Gasol...the leader of the Grizzlies...he's a 20/10 threat and gets you a guarenteed block and a half blocks a night...they dont make these guys on trees...he'd be 20th on the efficiency list had he been healthy even to qualify for the list... Manu, Pau, how about Odom? The guy is as versitile as they come (barring a guy named Kevin, also from the west)...Odom is virtually unguarable...he's got nice range on his shot, or if you jump out on him he'll penatrate and use that left hand for easy lay ups...he averages a double double a night...points and rebounds...15 and 10...only Dirk, Shaq, Duncan, KG, and Marion (who i'll get to) can say the same...thats company where I come from... Speaking of hard to guard...hey that rhymed...Rashard LEWIS...making the all-star appearence this year...rightfully so...20 points, 5 boards, he shoots 46% from the 3 position...40% from down town...both of those clips better than "super-star" 3 Tracy McGrady...He's also a huge reason the Sonics are having a FANTASTIC YEAR Now that Matrix I was talking about...Shawn Marion...you wanna talk about underrated? Look no further...19 and 11...he's 6'7" playing the four in the west, and playing it well...he's 6th in efficiencey...he's 3rd in steals, he's got the points and rebounds...yet, WHERE THE HELL IS THE LOVE...nobody talks about this guy, unless they are talking about why he gets no love...its true...nobody his size fills up the stat sheet like he does...I'm sure he likes playing with Nash...but this guy did it without Nash... How about Mike Bibby? The guys numbers are overlooked...he's a 20 point scorer with 6 and a half dimes and 4 and a half boards a game...clutch? anyone...check out sportscenter over the past 8 days...theres your clutch...his team loses their "star" and he leads them to 3-1 without him (Brad Miller's out at the moment too) Hey...BRAD MILLER...15 and 9...one of the best passing centers in the NBA, hard nose player, very efficient, more assists than Shaq, whose widely regarded as the best passing big man in the game...what about Miller? He's good too...should have been an all-star, but what are you gonna do? Most likely just use him in a debate for legitimate conference stars, i guess... One more, some of you probably got hot dates tonight, or better things to do...on that note, Zach Randolph...19 and 9...not talked about...he's got 22 double doubles, thats 16th in the league...man can post up with the best of them... If you're not full already...check out the dollar menu...Boozer, Maggette, Baron Davis, Jason Richardson, Carmelo Anthony, and a cat named Kenyon Stars....you want 'em...go west...and I'm not talking about Hollywood...
<div class="quote_poster">Quote:</div><div class="quote_post">lets keep this going by making an argument for some second tier players (ie: Rip Hamilton, Michael Redd, Pau Gasol, Lamar Odom) as legitimite stars. Notice that the question did not say "all stars" or "superstars" per se, but a player that a team could build a franchise around. </div> Ok, so its about a player that a franchise is built around. Read all the next points I make to show you why you can't build a franchise around the players you mentioned. <div class="quote_poster">Quote:</div><div class="quote_post">You talk guys like Manu Ginobili...how sick is this guy...pretty soon he's going to belong in my first post...the guy is an extremely good scorer, made his first all-star appearence (AND RIGHTFULLY SO), and I forgot all about him...that tells you how underrated the guy is...he's also a very good defensive player He's 12th in the league in steals...he gets 16/4/4 in 30 minutes...and can go off for 20 + easily if the Spurs needed him to... </div> No question about it, Manu is a good player but build a franchise around him? Nope. When Tim Duncan got injured against Detroit last season, the Spurs were in trouble. As expected, there winning % went down and they had to scrap and hustle hard against the teams between mediocre and excellent. Build a franchise around him? No. Put him as a roleplayer against a big superstar? Yes. <div class="quote_poster">Quote:</div><div class="quote_post">Then you have Pau Gasol...the leader of the Grizzlies...he's a 20/10 threat and gets you a guarenteed block and a half blocks a night...they dont make these guys on trees...he'd be 20th on the efficiency list had he been healthy even to qualify for the list... </div> He already has a franchise built around him and he's not getting far. He's a great player and with the perfect roleplayers he could go far into the playoffs but I don't think he has what it takes to win it all. Put him in a final against Kevin Garnett or Tim Duncan and he'll get beaten out of the building. <div class="quote_poster">Quote:</div><div class="quote_post">Speaking of hard to guard...hey that rhymed...Rashard LEWIS...making the all-star appearence this year...rightfully so...20 points, 5 boards, he shoots 46% from the 3 position...40% from down town...both of those clips better than "super-star" 3 Tracy McGrady...He's also a huge reason the Sonics are having a FANTASTIC YEAR </div> Rashard Lewis is a great player and is definatly underrated. Put him as a sidekick to a true franchise player and you may have yourself a championship winning team. <div class="quote_poster">Quote:</div><div class="quote_post">Now that Matrix I was talking about...Shawn Marion...you wanna talk about underrated? Look no further...19 and 11...he's 6'7" playing the four in the west, and playing it well...he's 6th in efficiencey...he's 3rd in steals, he's got the points and rebounds...yet, WHERE THE HELL IS THE LOVE...nobody talks about this guy, unless they are talking about why he gets no love...its true...nobody his size fills up the stat sheet like he does...I'm sure he likes playing with Nash...but this guy did it without Nash... </div> Sure, he put up great stats but where was his team before Nash came along? He puts up great numbers and would also make a good sidekick to a franchise player. <div class="quote_poster">Quote:</div><div class="quote_post">How about Mike Bibby? The guys numbers are overlooked...he's a 20 point scorer with 6 and a half dimes and 4 and a half boards a game...clutch? anyone...check out sportscenter over the past 8 days...theres your clutch...his team loses their "star" and he leads them to 3-1 without him (Brad Miller's out at the moment too) </div> Sure Bibby is great but he had the team a few seasons ago. He had Webber, Stojackavic and Divac and they didn't win anything. To be fair though he did go up against my Lakers. Brad Miller is definatly underrated and should have been an All Star last season ahead of Yao Ming. <div class="quote_poster">Quote:</div><div class="quote_post">If you're not full already...check out the dollar menu...Boozer, Maggette, Baron Davis, Jason Richardson, Carmelo Anthony, and a cat named Kenyon </div> None of these players can have championship winning franchises built around them. You said at the beginning of the post that you are talking about players that a franchise could be built around. None of these player could be the main threat in a championship winning side. Intersesting post though.
<div class="quote_poster">Quoting Laker_fan:</div><div class="quote_post">He's also proven he can choke in these situations. I hear he's got 4 winners and 3 misses. A clutch performer would have had a rate of 6-1 instead of 4-3. There are stars, and then there are superstars. These are the only players I would consider superstars from each conference: West Kevin Garnett Tim Duncan Kobe Bryant Tracy McGrady(hesitant because he is on the borderline of star/superstar) East Shaquille O'Neal Allen Iverson(hesitant because he is on the borderline of star/superstar) You can't call LeBron James a superstar. He's marketable in America but otherwise no. I live in England and I can tell that nobody knows who LeBron James is but everyone knows who Shaquille O'Neal is. Shaq is the most marketable worldwide out of the lot. Allen Iverson is also fairly known and alot of people have heard of Kobe Bryant but some find it hard to put the name to face. If thats what we're going by, then Kobe Bryant and Kevin Garnett fit all of them categories. I wouldn't call Tim Duncan clutch or Shaquille O'Neal clutch as they have missed crucial free throws. Although Shaq has made a few clutch free throws. AI doesn't have enough further playoff appearances and the same goes for T-Mac.</div> Iverson and T-Mac are borderline superstars? Weren't they both lead their teams to the playoffs a few years back? T-Mac left Orlando because they had nobody else except him who could play. Do you think if he had Grant, and DHoward they wouldn't have made it to the playoffs..? psh. Iverson doesn't just lead the Sixers. He carries them. He's a tough player to build a franchise around because he demands players that don't just stand around while he penetrates and does his thing. Along with LBrown he led his team to the finals in 2001, when, I believe, he reached his prime. <u>East</u> Pierce Kidd (definitely, he makes everyone better and play harder. I'm surprised none of you ever mentioned him) Shaq Wade needs more experience, I don't think he could still put up thirty when he's getting double and triple teamed. Soon.. <u>West</u> Allen Garnett Stoudemire is the same as Wade. Hopefully the injury to his elbow (from dunking too much) will motivate him to develop other parts of his game. Bryant (hasn't matured fully as a player, MJ at 26 knew what it took to win...trust in his teammates) Duncan Nowitzki McGrady Yao in a few years. He might be a slow developer, but when he gets used to (getting dunked on) I mean the pro game and he develops his midrange shot watch out. IMO, that's it. Nash isn't the type of player to build a team around. Marion isn't. Pau isn't. Odom isn't. I think Odom'd do better if he was a 'very good' role player. He still hasn't found a system where he fit. Edit: Oh yea, who's SAR?
