<div class="quote_poster">Quote:</div><div class="quote_post">Who was the more dominant superstar of that team? Certainly not Kobe. I believe Shaq won the three titles, Kobes was just there to help.</div> Yep, I guess Kobe scoring the 25+ points a game, 6 assists, 6 rebounds, great defensive play and clutch play was just a bit of help. I guess Kobe wasn't needed, George could have done those things if he was put as the starting SG. Let me get this through to you one more time. Shaq won zero titles when he was in Orlando. Shaq won zero titles in LA. Shaq won titles when Kobe broke out. Shaq has so far won nothing in Miami. <div class="quote_poster">Quote:</div><div class="quote_post">This season does actually prove that Kobe's a bad leader. He doesn't have the social skill to relate to his teammates. He sits on the back of the team plane with his headphones on, he spends most of his free time with his wife. He may be a leader and have respect on the court, but that's not the case off the hardwood.</div> So spending time with your wife is a bad thing? I guess you are with Kobe all the time so you know that he doesn't spend time with his teammates. I guess you aren't aware of the fact that Kobe and Caron Butler worked out together this summer. <div class="quote_poster">Quote:</div><div class="quote_post">wtf.</div> Nice reply, I thinking the same thing when I read these posts. <div class="quote_poster">Quote:</div><div class="quote_post">On the court.</div> Being a leader on the court is a bad thing is it? Even when he isn't playing he's a leader. This season against the Houston Rockets, when he was injured, he was in the huddles, giving advice, encouraging the players while in a suit. Are you with Kobe to know that outside in the real world he isn't a leader? <div class="quote_poster">Quote:</div><div class="quote_post">There is no way Peja, Nash, Manu, Bibby, Jefferson, Kidd, Rasheed, Rip, BWallace (wtf?) CWebb, Artest, or Chauncy would average 30 a night. Artest and Big Ben are defensive players, so you didn't even look the list over, CWebb and Rasheed are in their declining years, Peja doesn't have the all around skills necessary to drop 30 a night, Manu Bibby Kidd Chauncy Jefferson and Rip just are not big time scorers like that. Taking all those shots every game is tiresome, and their efficiency would surely drop, even in shooters like Rip, who hit snags during the season and have to get their stroke back.</div> I didn't realise that taking shots was tiring. These players take thousands of shots a week. Kobe has a starting exercise of 1000 shots that go in. Are you telling me he or other players are going to get tired of shooting. If somebody like Peja or Ray Allen took as many shots as AI did, they would have 35+ points a game. Other player's would have 30+ a game. <div class="quote_poster">Quote:</div><div class="quote_post">He has rivalries with RAllen, Iverson, Shaq, and countless other players because he just doesn't get it. </div> Did you not see the All Star game this season where Kobe and Ray Allen were joking about with each other. Allen Iverson has played down their rivalry and again, at this years All Star game did you not see them laughing together when Kobe fouled AI? <div class="quote_poster">Quote:</div><div class="quote_post">AI would instantly realize who's team it is, unlike Kobe, who's unwavering confidence caused the most dominant center in generations to leave. AI would have adjusted to becoming second option and picked up in an area where the team would've needed it, STL's and AST's. Don't make Shaq out to someone he isn't, when you clearly can't read his personality.</div> Allen Iverson would change his whole game for Shaq? Incase you didn't realise, Shaq disliked Kobe because he "took too many shots" and didn't pass enough, despite averaging 6 assists a game. How can you boost your steals per game? Going for more steals would mean more turnovers which would mean poor defense which would mean more points scored against you which would mean more loses which would mean an angrier Shaq. <div class="quote_poster">Quote:</div><div class="quote_post">I'll quote you on the answer to this "Wow, a whole two occasions! Because it happened twice, it means it happens all the time!"</div> Kevin doesn't play Tim Duncan 82 times a year. It has actually happened more then twice and the ratio for Kevin vs other PF's is actually bigger then Allen Iverson vs other PG's/SG's. <div class="quote_poster">Quote:</div><div class="quote_post">What player doesn't take orders? Are you saying Kobe would flat out ignore Philly Jackson, and just take things into his own hands? Cuz then Phil was right saying how Mr. Bryant is 'uncoachable'.</div> You clearly don't understand my point, if following orders meant you were a superstar, 99% of the NBA players are superstars. <div class="quote_poster">Quote:</div><div class="quote_post">About the passing? Let's think, the opposing coach is not stupid, so he'll obviously have Korver covered while Iverson is D-teamed, and seeing as how McKie/Iguodala aren't much of scorers there isn't much Iverson can do, except do what he's been doing his entire career..finding some hidden way to score.</div> You are trying to tell me that McKie/Iguodala can't hit open shots? They wouldn't be in the NBA if they couldn't hit open shots.
There have been a lot of good points brought up in the debate, but also a lot of points no one could ever prove. For example, would Iverson and Shaq work, we will never know because they've never played together. It's really just a matter of opinion and preference. The topic is turning into Kobe v. Iverson, and there have been several threads already on the topic. So if you want to continue the debate please search for those. Is Iverson a superstar, based on the original thread I would say he definitely is a superstar. He's also a franchise player and one of the best players in the league. He does have his faults, but what he brings to the court far outweigh the negatives. Unfortunately for Iverson, his 76ers team ran into a dominating Lakers team in the Finals. The Lakers only lost 1 game the entire playoffs (to the 76ers), and steamrolled through every series. Iverson is one of the hardest players to build a franchise around because of his style of play. Throughout his career the 76ers have tried to find the perfect sidekick for him, but the best solution is still the blueprint Larry Brown implemented when the 76ers made the Finals. He surrounded Iverson with two-way players who allowed Iverson to dominate the ball on offense, and protect him on defense. I don't think Iverson will ever win a title, but a lot of superstars in the NBA have retired without one.
<div class="quote_poster">Quote:</div><div class="quote_post">Garnett has done in the past. When Duncan has played Garnett his stats have dropped by quite a bit, more then once infact so it wasn't a fluke.</div> So I guess you're contradicting yourself that superstars should be able to shutdown fellow stars. <div class="quote_poster">Quote:</div><div class="quote_post">You are so convincing by questioning by knowledge of 76'ers games. Please, stay on topic, you make your post seem like it was written by a "mark." </div> If you'd watch more 76er games you would understand that Iverson's defense is above average. By watching more games of a certain team, you would understand how the team works. Iverson risks steals yes, but it usually ends up with Philadelphia scoring. The point I was trying to make was that because you don't watch too many 76er games, you wouldn't know this. <div class="quote_poster">Quote:</div><div class="quote_post">Wow, a whole two occasions! Because it happened twice, it means it happens all the time! I bet you can't think of at least 40 times last season that this happened. Seeing as you watch so many 76'ers games, it would be interesting to see if you could think of all those times. If you have trouble, search it up on the net, I'm sure you'll find notes on the games which could help.</div> Don't twist my words. Those were simply examples to back up my reasoning. I'm sure there are at least 40 times that Iverson stole that ball which ended up in Philadelphia scoring last season but I don't have neither the time nor the heart to list them all. I'll enlighten you on why I don't need to. O'Brien's 76ers last year were mainly running on the run and gun, fast break, full court sets. A bit of that system relied on Iverson getting steals which result in easy Philadelphia points. If the opponent would constantly score on them when Iverson gambled a steal, then that system would be terribly flawed, which it is not- because Philadelphia made the post season last year and had a winning record. Also, even if Iverson reads a steal wrong, he's quick enough to get back on defense. You're making him out to be a horrible defender. <div class="quote_poster">Quote:</div><div class="quote_post">Then as he is meant to take them shots, you shouldn't give him credit for it as he is given orders to do so. You give him credit for taking orders? You clearly don't understand my point, if following orders meant you were a superstar, 99% of the NBA players are superstars.</div> I honestly don't understand your reasoning. Like you said, 99% of the players in the league follow orders. I never said following orders meant you were a superstar, don't put words in my mouth. Iverson knows his role on his team, he knows he's the first option because there's really no one that has as much skills as him on Philadelphia, and he knows whats expected of him. <div class="quote_poster">Quote:</div><div class="quote_post"> You are trying to tell me that McKie/Iguodala can't hit open shots? They wouldn't be in the NBA if they couldn't hit open shots.</div> Mckie basically refuses to take shots or O'Brien doesn't want him taking shots. Even when he gets an open shot he passes it up. Iverson does give it Iguodala but as underrated as his jumper is, it needs to be more consistent. <div class="quote_poster">Quote:</div><div class="quote_post">I didn't realise that taking shots was tiring. These players take thousands of shots a week. Kobe has a starting exercise of 1000 shots that go in. Are you telling me he or other players are going to get tired of shooting. If somebody like Peja or Ray Allen took as many shots as AI did, they would have 35+ points a game. Other player's would have 30+ a game. </div> Taking shots is tiring. Go out to the courts and take 20 shots between running up and down the court. Yes, they take thousands of shots a week, but the difference is that its in practice. There's less pressure on those shots, its basically ghost defense, and you really don't have to run around too much to take those shots. Does Kobe run around during that exercise when he takes shots? Okay, I'll try to explain the "second and third option" to you more clearly- Iverson was virtually the only option on his team for a while. All the teams know this so they hone in their defense on him to stop him. Sort of like the Jordan thing that Bad Boy Pistons invented way back. Because the defense is honed in on him, its much harder to score. Meanwhile, Peja and Ray Allen have other options, such as Bibby, Mobley (last season), or Miller for Peja or Radmonivic and Lewis for Allen. Because of those other options, the defense is more spread out because they can't concentrate on one single player, making it easier for those guys to score. If Peja or Ray Allen was virtually the only option on their respective teams, they wouldn't be scoring thirty plus points. <div class="quote_poster">Quote:</div><div class="quote_post">Kevin doesn't play Tim Duncan 82 times a year. It has actually happened more then twice and the ratio for Kevin vs other PF's is actually bigger then Allen Iverson vs other PG's/SG's.</div> That statement doesn't make sense at all. Ratio of what? Again, those were just two examples, there's plenty more. <div class="quote_poster">Quote:</div><div class="quote_post">There have been a lot of good points brought up in the debate, but also a lot of points no one could ever prove. For example, would Iverson and Shaq work, we will never know because they've never played together. It's really just a matter of opinion and preference.</div> Exactly. Stick to the Iverson as a superstar debate TheAnswer2 and Laker Fan.
<div class="quote_poster">Quote:</div><div class="quote_post">Firstly, Kevin Garnett is a superstar because he dominates. I can't really say the same thing for AI.</div> That's the first time I've ever hear something as nonchalant as that. A.I doesn't dominate? You probably don't get to watch too much 76ers games over in England. Isiah Thomas which is arguably one of the greatest little guys of All-Time praised Iverson as one of the most dominant forces he's in modern basketball today. So if that's not credible coming from him, so what is, your word? Give me a break. Iverson doesn't dominant on both ends like Garnett would. But the fact that he completely dominates on the offensive ends overshadows the lack of domination he brings on the defensive end. A dominant night by Garnett might look like... 26 Points, 14 Rebounds, 6 Assists, 4 Blocks and 1 Steal. Now while stats don?t tell the whole story, you can tell by that stat line that that player had one heck of a productive game. And we know Garnett is a heck of a defender so often if he has a night like that you can bet he also did the job on the defensive end. In contrary if A.I has a dominant game it will something to the likes of 55 Points, 3 Rebounds, 6 Assists, 0 Blocks and 3 Steals but yet doesn't have as near as much of an impact on the defensive end. However, when you look at the fact that he scores 55 points it?s astonishing. Some of the most dominating players ever have yet to score over 50 points, so when you have someone scoring that much and in some cases on back to back nights and even 60 points, you must be indolent if you think that?s not dominating. So to be concise, each player dominates in they're own way. Again Garnett might mildly dominate in every category while someone like Iverson will COMPLETELY dominate in one category and in essence it?s virtually the same thing. <div class="quote_poster">Quote:</div><div class="quote_post">Exactly, he would be considered All NBA Second team if we decided who goes in by clutch play. NBA Second team wouldn't have won him the back to back to back. I don't even think that if you put him with Shaq he would have won anything. </div> Okay, so what if he would make the second team if decided by clutch play, what's your point? <div class="quote_poster">Quote:</div><div class="quote_post">Allen is great offensively. He score's heavily but at a poor FG%. Still, without a doubt he's great offensivly. On defence, no way could you call him amongst the best. He doesn't put up enough boards and I'd like to see him totally shut down his man. Hopefully somebody that is a fellow star.</div> Iverson is not great defensively? Oh really? Thanks taking the kitten out of the bag. Who ever said Iverson was great defensively? Lol. The way I see it, I see as if you trying to put words in my mouth and argue against Iverson defensively because you know you would win that battle because I'll even admit Iverson is weak defensively. But I don't ever recall saying Iverson was great defensively because I know I would lose that battle? So again, I don?t where that argument came from, I know for a fact that I didn?t say if, if I did please quote me. Not to mention, so what if he is weak defensively, that's his weakness. Doesn't ever player have a weakness? Some of the greatest players of All-Time have weaknesses so what's so wrong about him being weak defensively. And let's be serious it's not like he is the worst defender in the league; he's about average. He?s made the defensive team in the collegiate level; he?s been close to making the defensive team in the NBA for that matter. So to even be considered must mean he is playing defense, you?re making it sound as if he doesn?t play defense at all or if he doesn?t completely shut down his man he is not playing defense. <div class="quote_poster">Quote:</div><div class="quote_post">Wow, a whole two occasions! Because it happened twice, it means it happens all the time! I bet you can't think of at least 40 times last season that this happened. Seeing as you watch so many 76'ers games, it would be interesting to see if you could think of all those times. If you have trouble, search it up on the net, I'm sure you'll find notes on the games which could help.</div> (I hope Aznx doesn't mind me adding to this list) 1. Iverson steals the ball from Chauncey Billups, almost turns over the ball, but saves it from out of bounds and lobs it to Iguodala for a reverse dunk on the break away. 2. With a couple seconds left on the clock in a tight game against Philadelphia, Washington passes the ball in bounds to Gilbert Arenas, but Iverson is there and knocks the ball away and goes after it to make it an easy two points, shutting the Wizard's hopes of winning away. -- 3. 76ers up by two against the Atlanta Hawks, Harrington inbounds the ball. Tyrone Lue has trouble passing it, he forces the pass due to Iverson defense and Iverson picks it up. 4. 76ers up by 4, Eddie Jones inbounds the ball to Damon Jones and guess what? Iverson steals it. 5. In a very crucial play with under 15 seconds remaining, the Bulls really has one last shot at the game and guess who steals it by playing the passing lanes? 6. Jordan(Wizards) inbounds and guess who steals it to knock down the 3pt shot to end the first half? If you want I'll be glad to give you some more. Most of these occurrences happened this season alone, again if you want I can dig up some stuff from his rookie season and previous seasons. <div class="quote_poster">Quote:</div><div class="quote_post">Are you trying to tell me he's the only player that's double teamed from the start in the NBA? There are so many more players that are double and sometimes triple teamed. I'm not blaming Allen for taking the orders, I'm just saying that if other people took that many shots, they would also get 30+ points. Also, if he is double or triple teamed, why doesn't he pass up to the person who has the open look for the shot. Don't say they always miss because there are players on the 76'ers team with better FG% then Iverson.</div> So Iverson at the peak of his success is going to pass the ball to Mutumbo or how about Tyrone Hill who will o so consistently knock down a open shot. Wait, better yet how about Snow who would be glad to knock it down from long range. Hey a 21% career 3Pt shooter is not bad eh? <div class="quote_poster">Quote:</div><div class="quote_post">If somebody like Peja or Ray Allen took as many shots as AI did, they would have 35+ points a game. Other player's would have 30+ a game.</div> It's funny how you didn't bother quoting Aznx posts, which basically said that players to that caliber often have help which makes things easier for them. However when alone, they're not the same player. Want proof? Look at the season Kobe had. If Kobe had that much trouble imagine how it would be for those other guys. <div class="quote_poster">Quote:</div><div class="quote_post">Did you not see the All Star game this season where Kobe and Ray Allen were joking about with each other. Allen Iverson has played down their rivalry and again, at this years All Star game did you not see them laughing together when Kobe fouled AI?</div> Are you serious? Ever heard of friendly rivalry? So let me get this, do you expect that heated rivalry between Iverson and Allen to continue in the All-Star game? Do you really expect them to play 48 minutes and try to out do one another? This is an All-Star game which is basically a pick up game; the All-Star is a meaningless game to most of these guys. I can promise you that you wouldn?t see Iverson and Allen exchanging laughs in a regular season game, and I know for a fact then they weren?t doing so when they played each other in the conference finals. The same goes for Kobe and A.I back in the 2001 Finals. <div class="quote_poster">Quote:</div><div class="quote_post">Allen Iverson would change his whole game for Shaq? Incase you didn't realise, Shaq disliked Kobe because he "took too many shots" and didn't pass enough, despite averaging 6 assists a game. How can you boost your steals per game? Going for more steals would mean more turnovers which would mean poor defense which would mean more points scored against you which would mean more loses which would mean an angrier Shaq.</div> <div class="quote_poster">Quote:</div><div class="quote_post">You are trying to tell me that McKie/Iguodala can't hit open shots? They wouldn't be in the NBA if they couldn't hit open shots.</div> McKie was 6th man of the Year when he was knocking down the shots. So you really expect Iverson to pass the ball to McKie a player that was projected to be waived to knock down open shots with consistency. And then there is Iguodala, you also expected him to be a perimeter threat? As far as I can see, players like Van Horn and Korver which are legitimate perimeter threats did pretty well with A.I. Lastly, I see you have a knack of quoting everything, but its funny how you didn't quote my argument for Iverson?s supporting cast, an argument in which you was heavily in. I thought I brought ups some good facts and I was anxious to see your reply but I get nothing. So basically I was right and you wrong I guess?
<div class="quote_poster">Quote:</div><div class="quote_post">Also, even if Iverson reads a steal wrong, he's quick enough to get back on defense. You're making him out to be a horrible defender.</div> Exactly, you're not going to be outplayed on defense all the time as one of the fastest players on earth. <div class="quote_poster">Quote:</div><div class="quote_post">Taking shots is tiring. Go out to the courts and take 20 shots between running up and down the court. Yes, they take thousands of shots a week, but the difference is that its in practice. There's less pressure on those shots, its basically ghost defense, and you really don't have to run around too much to take those shots. Does Kobe run around during that exercise when he takes shots? Okay, I'll try to explain the "second and third option" to you more clearly-</div> This is obvious, I'm surprised he even brought it up. He must not even play basketball. I'd like to see Laker Fan play 40 minutes a night, take 25+ shots a game and still drop 30 while being double and triple teamed, playing at breakneck speed too. <div class="quote_poster">Quote:</div><div class="quote_post">Iverson was virtually the only option on his team for a while. All the teams know this so they hone in their defense on him to stop him. Sort of like the Jordan thing that Bad Boy Pistons invented way back. Because the defense is honed in on him, its much harder to score. Meanwhile, Peja and Ray Allen have other options, such as Bibby, Mobley (last season), or Miller for Peja or Radmonivic and Lewis for Allen. Because of those other options, the defense is more spread out because they can't concentrate on one single player, making it easier for those guys to score. If Peja or Ray Allen was virtually the only option on their respective teams, they wouldn't be scoring thirty plus points.</div> haha, to quote Mr. Iverson "I felt like I could kiss him on the mouth.." Exactly my point. <div class="quote_poster">Quote:</div><div class="quote_post">There have been a lot of good points brought up in the debate, but also a lot of points no one could ever prove. For example, would Iverson and Shaq work, we will never know because they've never played together. It's really just a matter of opinion and preference.</div> This is very true. However, I find it fun to speculate. Based on the several interviews Iverson has done throughout the season, I wouldn't be surprised if he sacrificed his game to win a championship (like Shaq did this year, and Wilt did.) <div class="quote_poster">Quote:</div><div class="quote_post">Shaq won zero titles when he was in Orlando. Shaq won zero titles in LA. Shaq won titles when Kobe broke out. Shaq has so far won nothing in Miami.</div> True, now I'd like to see how many titles Kobe has won without the most dominant player in decades. <div class="quote_poster">Quote:</div><div class="quote_post"> I guess you aren't aware of the fact that Kobe and Caron Butler worked out together this summer.</div> <div class="quote_poster">Quote:</div><div class="quote_post"> Are you with Kobe to know that outside in the real world he isn't a leader?</div> He just isn't! I've heard enough about him, and i apologize, I'm very good at reading people's personality types. McGrady knew this about himself (off the court) and even went to leadership classes. LeBron showed more trust in his teammates than Kobe did, Kobe wants to do everything for himself and he has to fix that part of his mind before he'll win any championships. <div class="quote_poster">Quote:</div><div class="quote_post">You are trying to tell me that McKie/Iguodala can't hit open shots? They wouldn't be in the NBA if they couldn't hit open shots.</div> Ridiculous, not everybody in the league has a jumper like Kobe. TJ Ford anyone? <div class="quote_poster">Quote:</div><div class="quote_post">Garnett might mildly dominate in every category while someone like Iverson will COMPLETELY dominate in one category and in essence it?s virtually the same thing.</div> Couldn't have said it better myself. <div class="quote_poster">Quote:</div><div class="quote_post">(I hope Aznx doesn't mind me adding to this list) 1. Iverson steals the ball from Chauncey Billups, almost turns over the ball, but saves it from out of bounds and lobs it to Iguodala for a reverse dunk on the break away. 2. With a couple seconds left on the clock in a tight game against Philadelphia, Washington passes the ball in bounds to Gilbert Arenas, but Iverson is there and knocks the ball away and goes after it to make it an easy two points, shutting the Wizard's hopes of winning away. -- 3. 76ers up by two against the Atlanta Hawks, Harrington inbounds the ball. Tyrone Lue has trouble passing it, he forces the pass due to Iverson defense and Iverson picks it up. 4. 76ers up by 4, Eddie Jones inbounds the ball to Damon Jones and guess what? Iverson steals it. 5. In a very crucial play with under 15 seconds remaining, the Bulls really has one last shot at the game and guess who steals it by playing the passing lanes? 6. Jordan(Wizards) inbounds and guess who steals it to knock down the 3pt shot to end the first half?</div> Don't bother typing it, just go to Sixers.com and download all the clips they have of Iverson stealing, maybe if he sees it...he'll believe it.
<div class="quote_poster">Quote:</div><div class="quote_post">Atlanta Full Timeout. 0:01 98-99 Andre Iguodala enters the game for Kyle Korver 0:01 98-99 Samuel Dalembert enters the game for Marc Jackson 0:00 98-99 Boris Diaw Bad Pass. Stolen by Allen Iverson</div> Excuse me, I said Tyrone Lue, it was Boris Diaw. Link -- Wizards Game- Iverson GW Steal Bulls Game- A.I Steals It I just thought I post a couple of these as proof just so anyone won't think I'm making all these stuff up.
I can't possibly be seeing a "Is AI a superstar or not" debate... This is about as pointless and obvious as debating whether a basketball rim is round or square.
<div class="quote_poster">Quoting SupraJames:</div><div class="quote_post">I can't possibly be seeing a "Is AI a superstar or not" debate... This is about as pointless and obvious as debating whether a basketball rim is round or square.</div> You're right to a certain a degree. But I don't think it's that evident. Laker_fan brought up some good points, but for the most part I think it's very clear Iverson is a superstar, he just doesn't seem to udnerstand that. Debating whether Shaq or Duncan is a superstar is like debating whether a rim is round or squared.
<div class="quote_poster">Quote:</div><div class="quote_post">So I guess you're contradicting yourself that superstars should be able to shutdown fellow stars.</div> Mind typo, he dominates every other PF in the NBA. He does dominate in some games againsts his equal, Tim Duncan. He's stats have increased in some games and Tim's have gone down. <div class="quote_poster">Quote:</div><div class="quote_post">That's the first time I've ever hear something as nonchalant as that. A.I doesn't dominate? You probably don't get to watch too much 76ers games over in England. Isiah Thomas which is arguably one of the greatest little guys of All-Time praised Iverson as one of the most dominant forces he's in modern basketball today. So if that's not credible coming from him, so what is, your word? Give me a break.</div> Magic Johnson also said that he thinks Kobe is capable of winning 10 rings. I guess I will agree because it came from Magic Johnson's mouth. Give me a break. <div class="quote_poster">Quote:</div><div class="quote_post">Iverson doesn't dominant on both ends like Garnett would. But the fact that he completely dominates on the offensive ends overshadows the lack of domination he brings on the defensive end. A dominant night by Garnett might look like... 26 Points, 14 Rebounds, 6 Assists, 4 Blocks and 1 Steal. Now while stats dont tell the whole story, you can tell by that stat line that that player had one heck of a productive game. And we know Garnett is a heck of a defender so often if he has a night like that you can bet he also did the job on the defensive end. In contrary if A.I has a dominant game it will something to the likes of 55 Points, 3 Rebounds, 6 Assists, 0 Blocks and 3 Steals but yet doesn't have as near as much of an impact on the defensive end. However, when you look at the fact that he scores 55 points its astonishing. Some of the most dominating players ever have yet to score over 50 points, so when you have someone scoring that much and in some cases on back to back nights and even 60 points, you must be indolent if you think thats not dominating. So to be concise, each player dominates in they're own way. Again Garnett might mildly dominate in every category while someone like Iverson will COMPLETELY dominate in one category and in essence its virtually the same thing. </div> How often does Allen Iverson drop 50 points? He only dominates when he scores that heavily, which is something like 8 games a season. Even if he doesn't score the points, somebody else will. I'm not saying that this other person will score 50 points but the points will be shared. Let me ask you a question, when the 76'ers play without Allen Iverson, does their points total decrease by 30 points? Say that they average 95 points a game, when he doesn't play, does it drop to 65 points? No, because other players are also able to score points when they take the shots that Allen is meant to take. <div class="quote_poster">Quote:</div><div class="quote_post">Okay, so what if he would make the second team if decided by clutch play, what's your point?</div> Again, if you take the time to read the whole thread, you will realise I said that Allen would make the second team for clutch play so he would have scored some of the game winners that Kobe did, not all. <div class="quote_poster">Quote:</div><div class="quote_post">But I don't ever recall saying Iverson was great defensively because I know I would lose that battle? So again, I dont where that argument came from, I know for a fact that I didnt say if, if I did please quote me.</div> I can't remember if somebody else said it bit somebody did say Allen is great defensivly. When did this turn into a battle? Are we in 8 Mile or something? <div class="quote_poster">Quote:</div><div class="quote_post">Doesn't ever player have a weakness? Some of the greatest players of All-Time have weaknesses so what's so wrong about him being weak defensively.</div> Sure, every player has their weaknesses, but the greats don't have something as huge as a defensive problem. Sure, Shaq can't hit free throws, but he gets to the line so many times that he makes up for the missed free throws. Defense is the most important part of basketball, even more so then offense. I can't recall one team that has won the championship and has been poor defensivly. I can recall teams that aren't the best offensivly though. <div class="quote_poster">Quote:</div><div class="quote_post">If you want I'll be glad to give you some more. Most of these occurrences happened this season alone, again if you want I can dig up some stuff from his rookie season and previous seasons.</div> I'm not talking about rookie stuff, or anything, I literally mean at least 40 times this season. Seeing as TheAnswer2 said that Allen has an eye for stealing the ball and he rarely misses the opportunity and causes a turnover, I want to see a minimum of 40 times he done it this season seeing as he has had a minimum of 20 shots gone into the basket due to him trying to go for the steal and missing the ball. <div class="quote_poster">Quote:</div><div class="quote_post">It's funny how you didn't bother quoting Aznx posts, which basically said that players to that caliber often have help which makes things easier for them. However when alone, they're not the same player. Want proof? Look at the season Kobe had. If Kobe had that much trouble imagine how it would be for those other guys.</div> The Lakers didn't have a bad season because of our offense, infact our offense was actually fairly good, it was our defense. We had 3 key players injured, a loss of a manager and some of the weakest players defensivly. Our top 3 players played together 50 times this season. In those 50 games, our record was good enough for the 7th playoff spot. <div class="quote_poster">Quote:</div><div class="quote_post">Lastly, I see you have a knack of quoting everything, but its funny how you didn't quote my argument for Iversons supporting cast, an argument in which you was heavily in. I thought I brought ups some good facts and I was anxious to see your reply but I get nothing. So basically I was right and you wrong I guess?</div> I read through your post and you had just said what everyone else had said, except in one post. <div class="quote_poster">Quote:</div><div class="quote_post">Are you serious? Ever heard of friendly rivalry? So let me get this, do you expect that heated rivalry between Iverson and Allen to continue in the All-Star game? Do you really expect them to play 48 minutes and try to out do one another? This is an All-Star game which is basically a pick up game; the All-Star is a meaningless game to most of these guys. I can promise you that you wouldnt see Iverson and Allen exchanging laughs in a regular season game, and I know for a fact then they werent doing so when they played each other in the conference finals. The same goes for Kobe and A.I back in the 2001 Finals.</div> Again, read the whole thread, somebody mentioned that Kobe has a problem with alot of players, they mentioned AI and Ray Allen. Do you know a thing called competitivness? That's all it was, Allen Iverson himself got alot of heat for the 2001 finals and he mentioned that all it is, is that they both want to win and play hard. I think its great that they go at each other on the court, it brings out the best in them. If Kobe had a big problem with them off the court, would he be making jokes with them on the court? <div class="quote_poster">Quote:</div><div class="quote_post">That statement doesn't make sense at all. Ratio of what? Again, those were just two examples, there's plenty more.</div> The ratio for KG making Tim Duncan's stats drop is bigger then AI making the NBA's PG's/SG's drop. -------------------------------------------------------------------------- Lastly, this is going nowhere, so this is my last post to do with this topic. Its gone off topic and as Shape said, there are other threads that this could be discussed in. I'm not going to ignore the rules or anything so this is my last post here. The question is, do you people have any respect for the forum? Reply if you wish to, the decision is yours.
<div class="quote_poster">Quote:</div><div class="quote_post">Lastly, this is going nowhere, so this is my last post to do with this topic. Its gone off topic and as Shape said, there are other threads that this could be discussed in. I'm not going to ignore the rules or anything so this is my last post here. The question is, do you people have any respect for the forum? Reply if you wish to, the decision is yours.</div> Like og15 would say ?Laker_Fan makes me laugh?. I think it?s more like you want to have the last word. From reading your last post, you seem like a slick fella that?s trying to get the last word. I know pretty darn well that you?re clear what shape said. But it seems as if you?re trying to turn this something else so you can end this debate. Well just incase you?re not clear what on he said, let me break it down? <div class="quote_poster">Quote:</div><div class="quote_post">The topic is turning into Kobe v. Iverson, and there have been several threads already on the topic. So if you want to continue the debate please search for those.</div> Being here for quite some time, I?ve seen these Kobe/A.I threads, and that?s the last thing I wanted this thread into. The key word was turning into an Iverson v. Kobe thread, but it's apparent that's no longer the case. As far we go (Me, you and Aznx), we're not comparing Kobe and A.I whatsoever, we're just using Kobe name as an example for one of our arguments as far as I can tell. I don?t see any stat comparisons of any sorts, but if we?re going to have to stop using Kobe name, so be it, I don?t see why this can?t continue. Because honestly, if you didn't want this to continue why did you even bother quoting me and arguing against me? If you didn't want to continue then there would be no point of posting everything you had above, you would have just merely post the last portion of your posts. But again, it's obvious that you just wanted to have the last word. At the end of the day you?re in a way contradicting yourself and being a hypocrite. By saying in ?respect? for this forum that continuing the argument wouldn?t be the smartest choice but yet you continued the argument even though it was before you?re ?peace treaty?. And don?t act like you didn?t know what you were going to post at the end of your post. You?re not fooling anybody.
Yea, I'll definitely be replying, because you're getting ridiculous. <div class="quote_poster">Quoting Laker_fan:</div><div class="quote_post">Mind typo, he dominates every other PF in the NBA. He does dominate in some games againsts his equal, Tim Duncan. He's stats have increased in some games and Tim's have gone down.</div> So, then TD's not a superstar because he's getting dominated. You're logic isn't making sense. <div class="quote_poster">Quote:</div><div class="quote_post">Magic Johnson also said that he thinks Kobe is capable of winning 10 rings. I guess I will agree because it came from Magic Johnson's mouth. Give me a break.</div> That was it? He didn't mention that he was capable with Shaq? Of course, KG could win 10 rings with the right player, so could T-Mac, Iverson, TD, Shaq, Wade, LeBron..it goes on and on. There is no way, yes I'm saying this, no way Kobe will ever win 10 rings with him as the lone superstar. <div class="quote_poster">Quote:</div><div class="quote_post">How often does Allen Iverson drop 50 points? He only dominates when he scores that heavily, which is something like 8 games a season. Even if he doesn't score the points, somebody else will. I'm not saying that this other person will score 50 points but the points will be shared. Let me ask you a question, when the 76'ers play without Allen Iverson, does their points total decrease by 30 points? Say that they average 95 points a game, when he doesn't play, does it drop to 65 points? No, because other players are also able to score points when they take the shots that Allen is meant to take.</div> This is ludicrous, Iverson is not just points, have you ever seen a game? He ignites the offense and fires up the team. The constant forced fast breaks puts pressure on the other teams to get back (especially difficult for bigger players like Tractor Traylor and Ming). 8 AST's a game, and you're calling him Just Scoring. <div class="quote_poster">Quote:</div><div class="quote_post">Sure, every player has their weaknesses, but the greats don't have something as huge as a defensive problem. Sure, Shaq can't hit free throws, but he gets to the line so many times that he makes up for the missed free throws. Defense is the most important part of basketball, even more so then offense. I can't recall one team that has won the championship and has been poor defensivly. I can recall teams that aren't the best offensivly though. </div> Now his defense is a problem..where do you get this stuff? How many other PG's can go for 45 any given night? Maybe Franchise, maybe Marbury, most PG's are not the teams leading scorers, so Iverson isn't forced to shutdown big time players as much as KG. PF's are most teams inside scoring factors, putting a heavier burden on KG, thus, letting him shine more easily. Iguodala was counted on for his defense during the season. Remember? <div class="quote_poster">Quote:</div><div class="quote_post">I'm not talking about rookie stuff, or anything, I literally mean at least 40 times this season. Seeing as TheAnswer2 said that Allen has an eye for stealing the ball and he rarely misses the opportunity and causes a turnover, I want to see a minimum of 40 times he done it this season seeing as he has had a minimum of 20 shots gone into the basket due to him trying to go for the steal and missing the ball.</div> Yea, you definitely have a habit of putting words in people's mouths, especially when trying to summarize their thoughts. When did I say he rarely misses an opportunity? I wouldn't say the 76ers defense is poor anyway, they have a potential stopper in Iguodala, and a top line shotblocker in Dalembert, who both are young and can rotate to help Iverson for all his mistakes missing the ball. <div class="quote_poster">Quote:</div><div class="quote_post">Again, read the whole thread, somebody mentioned that Kobe has a problem with alot of players, they mentioned AI and Ray Allen. Do you know a thing called competitivness? That's all it was, Allen Iverson himself got alot of heat for the 2001 finals and he mentioned that all it is, is that they both want to win and play hard. I think its great that they go at each other on the court, it brings out the best in them. If Kobe had a big problem with them off the court, would he be making jokes with them on the court?</div> I said that, and I have heard of competitiveness, I play the damn game after all. Think about this, players will often mend these problems because they don't want drama caused by the press, IMO Kobe doesn't know how to handle himself off the court. He complained about Karl Malone spending time with his wife..wtf, I'd lose some respect for him for that.
<div class="quote_poster">Quote:</div><div class="quote_post">Sure, every player has their weaknesses, but the greats don't have something as huge as a defensive problem. Sure, Shaq can't hit free throws, but he gets to the line so many times that he makes up for the missed free throws. Defense is the most important part of basketball, even more so then offense. I can't recall one team that has won the championship and has been poor defensivly. I can recall teams that aren't the best offensivly though.</div> If AI's defense is so bad name some people, show some evidence that other guards play well against him, lmao...this is truly funny. What in the hell makes you think Allen Iverson has as huge as a defensive problem!? I think I know what it is, your reasoning is an opinion more than a fact, that is why you can't even prove Allen is a bad defender. If anybody has a huge defensive problem, it is the other teams in the NBA who can't stop him from averaging 30 points a game. You want a real defensive problem? Every time the Bucks and 76ers faced off this past season AI scored 40 or more every time, now that is a big problem because it speaks for himself. <div class="quote_poster">Quote:</div><div class="quote_post">How often does Allen Iverson drop 50 points? He only dominates when he scores that heavily, which is something like 8 games a season. Even if he doesn't score the points, somebody else will. I'm not saying that this other person will score 50 points but the points will be shared. Let me ask you a question, when the 76'ers play without Allen Iverson, does their points total decrease by 30 points? Say that they average 95 points a game, when he doesn't play, does it drop to 65 points? No, because other players are also able to score points when they take the shots that Allen is meant to take.</div> First he doesn't dominated now he only dominates when he scores big, your logic has a lot of holes in it because you always come up with a statement to cover up what you have said in the past few pages. That whole thing with the points doesn't make any sense; it seems now your only looking at stats when AI energizes every game. He has more heart than anyone in the league, yet you question his defense and his rebounding. Again how is averaging 30 and 8 in a season not dominating? Or averaging 27 points per game in a career? It is dominating to me and the record books in which he is a top three scorer (PPG) of all time.
