Can Any Lakers fans give a little bit of ..just a little bit of props to Wade for winning a title? I know it's nothing for Kobe but Wade did it once too.
<div class="quote_poster">Quoting illmatic:</div><div class="quote_post">Wade is getting a huge head, just watch til Wade slips up with something off the court or what have you, we'll see how much everyone loves him then or once we see his true side. No one can honestly tell me Kobe is big headed or conceited or none of that, after watchin all the interviews he's done this year, he's shown his true classy self. I think Wade is a class act himself, but I know hanging with Shaq he's gonna think he's the **** and no one in the nba will stop him. Bottomline, Wade won his title with Shaq, Zo, Payton, Walker, Jason Williams, etc, not to mention Pat Riley All I'm saying is, let Wade enjoy his time. Slowly I'm getting annoyed of him because of all you guys stating the Wade > Kobe crap. Kobe has been in the league for 10 damn years, SLOW YOUR ROLL with saying Wade is better.</div> First, Kobe had nothing to be cocky about this year. Going to Game 7 against Suns? but they did get knocked out in the first stage. Not big of an achievement for the "BEST PLAYER" in the league Second, that's exactly why Kobe got his haters. I had no problem with Kobe until I hit this forum for the first time and saw all these Kobe worshippers. And it would be some kind of blasphemy if someone said "Wow this kid is as good as Kobe now or even better" that thread will have endless pages. Remember, Kobe's fans were even WORSE than how Wade's fans act. At least I give the "best player" in the league to Kobe cuz he's truly the best. But his fans? Trust me, they are even much much cockier than Kobe himself, like they won those championships. It's funny.
<u>illmatic:</u> <div class="quote_poster">Quote:</div><div class="quote_post">The same people that are saying Wade is the best and Wade > Kobe are the same people that said LeBron was the best and Bron > Kobe. Everyone forgets how good LeBron and Kobe were, cause all we've been seeing is Wade</div> I've said it for a while now; Both Lebron and Wade are both better than Kobe <div class="quote_poster">Quote:</div><div class="quote_post">Don't get it twisted guys, I don't know where you guys got this "Wade is humble" crap, but he's rolling with Shaq daddy, the most egotistical and big-headed person in the NBA, and yet fans and analysts thinks he's "OH SO FUNNY" with his stupid ass comments. Wade is getting a huge head, just watch til Wade slips up with something off the court or what have you, we'll see how much everyone loves him then. Wade is starting to get that "I'm the sh!t" swagger when he makes a shot</div> What at all does this have to do with the thread topic; <u>And Laker fans wanna call everyone else haters?</u> Yall Laker fans have gotta realize how ridiculous you sound- I could imagine actually having a conversation with yall about this with yall talking this nonsense. <div class="quote_poster">Quote:</div><div class="quote_post">Bottomline, Wade won his title with Shaq, Zo, Payton, Walker, Jason Williams, etc, not to mention Pat Riley </div> ...<div class="quote_poster">Quote:</div><div class="quote_post">Sh!t, he better win the damn title with that crew</div> <font color=""Purple""> Kobe's</font> stats: with Payton, Dominant Shaq, K Malone, etc.. not to mention 9 time champ Phil Jackson during his last Finals series finals' series 03-04' 8th season Lost to Det 4-1 22.6 ppg(%?) 2.8 reb 4.4 ast oh, his fg% I dont remember for the first 2 games-- yet I have recived information that over the last 3 he averaged around 35% for those 22.6 pts
LOL yeah I forgot that KObe had younger Shaq, Payton, K Malone. All the veterans that Lakers fans make excuse for Wade winning a title.
<div class="quote_poster">Quote:</div><div class="quote_post">No one can honestly tell me Kobe is big headed or conceited or none of that, after watchin all the interviews he's done this year, he's shown his true classy self.</div>are you Kobe's PR advisor??? you cannot talk about how classy Kobe is and yet you say Wade is getting a huge head when he has been humble. <div class="quote_poster">Quote:</div><div class="quote_post">What at all does this have to do with the thread topic; And Laker fans wanna call everyone else haters? Yall Laker fans have gotta realize how ridiculous you sound- I could imagine actually having a conversation with yall about this with yall talking this nonsense.</div>Just to clarify, who the hell are you talking about? It seems as though you are generalizing ALL Laker fans when there are a lot on this site very knowledgable.
<div class="quote_poster">Quoting illmatic:</div><div class="quote_post"> The same people that are saying Wade is the best and Wade > Kobe are the same people that said LeBron was the best and Bron > Kobe.</div> Maybe they think both Wade and LeBron are better than Kobe. *shock* <div class="quote_poster">Quote:</div><div class="quote_post">Wade has been in the league for 3 years. Wade is developing into one of the best players in the league, and no one is arguing that Kobe, Wade, and Bron aren't the Top 3 in the NBA, so why the Wade > Kobe talk?</div> Why not? It's just an opinion. There's plenty of Kobe > Wade talk. Plenty of "Kobe is the best player in the league" talk. Nothing wrong with people have differing opinions. <div class="quote_poster">Quote:</div><div class="quote_post">Were you watching those playoffs and finals during the 3-peat? Kobe deserved that Finals MVP just as much as Shaq. He was putting in some serious work and without him none of that would be possible</div> Shaq's numbers in those Finals series were other-worldly. He deserved the MVP each time. Wade lucked out -- Shaq isn't anywhere near the player he once was. <div class="quote_poster">Quote:</div><div class="quote_post">No one can honestly tell me Kobe is big headed or conceited or none of that, after watchin all the interviews he's done this year, he's shown his true classy self.</div> You really think he comes off as sincere in those interviews, huh? I have a different impression.
WadeDynasty, bro I completely agree with you. I can totally see where you're coming from. And my answer is....well, I don't know what to say. I love Kobe (no homo) and from the likes of it, it seems you like Wade just as much, what do you think the answer is to all of this? It can't be for us to stop supporting our favorite players. But the fact is, Wade > Kobe is pretty ridiculous, it's just a spit in the face of any true NBA fan. Do I doubt Wade or LeBron will be better than Kobe (screw the "stats" I don't go by that) SURE! I think it's hella possible they could be better. BUT, people are forgetting Kobe is not a OLD man like Shaq. This cat is in the best shape of his life, and is YET to hit his prime ( I truly believe this ) yeah, Wade and LeBron are gonna get better, but so is Kobe, BY A LOT. Listen, Kobe is 27, Jordan wasn't in his prime til his 30's, Kobe has so much more knowledge on the court, and so much more to learn. Once all 3 of these players are done with their career, THEN WE CAN START THE DEBATES. Until then, it's useless. Who knows, next year or two years from now, we might have someone come into the NBA that's even better than all three of those players. Are we gonna start saying that guy is better than Wade, Kobe, and LeBron in his 3rd year too? Sh!t, I hope not. Thanks for the reply, as I completely agree with what you say. And for the recrod, i'm happy for Dwayne Wade, if only #32 wasn't on the Heat, I would have been so happy for them. As a die-hard Laker fan and knowing the truth behind the Shaq controversy, you have to understand why I didn't want that man to win another title, especially so soon.
uh.. u didnt address my direct post-- which addressed you... directly illmatic .. that seems like a trend in this Laker forums tho-- the fans seem more than willing to engage in a flame war, yet when it comes to addressing damaging stats they for one reason or another seem to glaze their eyes over those posts.
<div class="quote_poster">Quoting AIRTIGHT:</div><div class="quote_post"> oh, his fg% I dont remember for the first 2 games-- yet I have recived information that over the last 3 he averaged around 35% for those 22.6 pts</div> Kobe was at 38% for the series. His overall scoring efficiency was a very poor 45.6% (ts%). Didn't he have some health problems at the time, though? He did have one very good game in game 2. If I remember, he almost single handedly won that game for the Lakers.
<div class="quote_poster">Quoting AIRTIGHT:</div><div class="quote_post"><u>illmatic:</u> I've said it for a while now; Both Lebron and Wade are both better than Kobe What at all does this have to do with the thread topic; <u>And Laker fans wanna call everyone else haters?</u> Yall Laker fans have gotta realize how ridiculous you sound- I could imagine actually having a conversation with yall about this with yall talking this nonsense. Are you serious bro? Do you comprehend what I am trying to tell you? THIS IS BEFORE THE TWO SPLIT. That "team" was not even a TEAM. It was a bunch of all-stars on a team to win a title. The difference between that Laker team and this Miami team was SHAQ DIDN'T ASSUME HIS ROLE on that Lakers team. He still thought he was in his late 20's again, and wanted EVERYTHING to go through him. In an article I read, if Shaq didn't touch the ball on the offensive side, he threatened not to play defense. Grow the ***** up Shaq. ... <font color=""Purple""> Kobe's</font> stats: with Payton, Dominant Shaq, K Malone, etc.. not to mention 9 time champ Phil Jackson during his last Finals series finals' series 03-04' 8th season Lost to Det 4-1 22.6 ppg(%?) 2.8 reb 4.4 ast oh, his fg% I dont remember for the first 2 games-- yet I have recived information that over the last 3 he averaged around 35% for those 22.6 pts</div> Are you serious bro? Do you comprehend what I am trying to tell you? THIS IS BEFORE THE WHOLE SPLIT UP. That "team" was not even a TEAM. It was a bunch of all-stars on a team to win a title. The difference between that Laker team and this Miami team was SHAQ DIDN'T PUT HIMSELF IN CHECK on that Lakers team and DEMANDED the ball everytime down the court. He still thought he was in his mid to late 20's again, and wanted EVERYTHING to go through him. In an article I read, if Shaq didn't touch the ball on the offensive side, he threatened not to play defense. Grow the ***** up Shaq. The reason this Miami team worked, is because Shaq wasn't a cry baby about not being the #1 offensive threat. He let Wade be that role and the rest of the role players fell in to place. I didn't hear one person call Wade a ball-hogger this playoffs. That game he went 11 for 32 or some crap, no one brings it up. If Kobe did that, you guys would have cut off his head. If Kobe went 11 for 32 with that Lakers team against Pistons, it would have been A LOT different. Basically the only difference I'm trying to tell you guys was Shaq. This year's Shaq realized he was'nt the same person he used to be, and let Wade be the #1 option. If the same was true for that Lakers team, I think they would have won the title.
<div class="quote_poster">Quoting AIRTIGHT:</div><div class="quote_post">uh.. u didnt address my direct post-- which addressed you... directly illmatic .. that seems like a trend in this Laker forums tho-- the fans seem more than willing to engage in a flame war, yet when it comes to addressing damaging stats they for one reason or another seem to glaze their eyes over those posts.</div> Calm down kid, I told you I didn't want to reply to 5 different people, and I can't type 1000 words per minute. If you look above, I replied to your post, young padawan. And one thing you are forgetting was that Lakers team made it to the NBA Finals, You guys make it seem like they lost in the 1st or 2nd round of the playoffs. So that Lakers team lost 4-1 to Detroit right. If I remember correctly, the Dallas series started out 2-0. It was about to be 3-0 before that amazing comeback by the Heat. Sometimes, I really wish Dallas just won that series 4-0 or 4-1 to shut your mouths once and for all. You guys truly disgust me, you do not phase me at all, and I really believe you guys (minus durvasa) have no basketball knowledge whatsoever. And no need for you guys to quadruple team, if Shapecity really wanted to, he'd put you all in check. Thanks.
illmatic, You can only say player A is better than player B if he's played the same number of seasons? I don't get the logic of that. It's perfectly conceivable that a ROOKIE can come into the league and be better than anyone else. There's no physical rule against that. No one is arguing that Wade already has a better career than Kobe. Obviously, Kobe has put together a more extensive body of work. The question is, right now, who's the better player? I think it's extremely arrogant to say any "true NBA fan" would say it's Kobe. Plenty of very knowledgable people would disagree.
<div class="quote_poster">Quoting illmatic:</div><div class="quote_post">WadeDynasty, bro I completely agree with you. I can totally see where you're coming from. And my answer is....well, I don't know what to say. I love Kobe (no homo) and from the likes of it, it seems you like Wade just as much, what do you think the answer is to all of this? It can't be for us to stop supporting our favorite players. But the fact is, Wade > Kobe is pretty ridiculous, it's just a spit in the face of any true NBA fan. Do I doubt Wade or LeBron will be better than Kobe (screw the "stats" I don't go by that) SURE! I think it's hella possible they could be better. BUT, people are forgetting Kobe is not a OLD man like Shaq. This cat is in the best shape of his life, and is YET to hit his prime ( I truly believe this ) yeah, Wade and LeBron are gonna get better, but so is Kobe, BY A LOT. Listen, Kobe is 27, Jordan wasn't in his prime til his 30's, Kobe has so much more knowledge on the court, and so much more to learn. Once all 3 of these players are done with their career, THEN WE CAN START THE DEBATES. Until then, it's useless. Who knows, next year or two years from now, we might have someone come into the NBA that's even better than all three of those players. Are we gonna start saying that guy is better than Wade, Kobe, and LeBron in his 3rd year too? Sh!t, I hope not. Thanks for the reply, as I completely agree with what you say. And for the recrod, i'm happy for Dwayne Wade, if only #32 wasn't on the Heat, I would have been so happy for them. As a die-hard Laker fan and knowing the truth behind the Shaq controversy, you have to understand why I didn't want that man to win another title, especially so soon.</div> No offense to you man but it's nice to see a rational fan of Kobe. I honestly don't care who's better than who. I love underdogs anyways. It makes the game better to watch. I know Kobe's better than anyone right now with Wade, Bron right behind an inch or so.... But unless Lakers do something to bring the right pieces, Kobe won't have as much success. Yeah I know why Lakers fans hate Shaq and I'm cool with that. I can't help it you know. I just didn't like how the fans have acted. They didn't play one minute to get those 3 rings yet they act like they have. Other than that, I like Kobe and I hope that my man Wade can learn as much as possible from Kobe (we all know they're working out together this summer right?) and someday surpass him. He don't have to be best right now, he's too young to be the best. I still love him.
illmati: <div class="quote_poster">Quote:</div><div class="quote_post">if Shaq cdidn't touch the ball on the offensive side, he threatened not to play defense</div> <div class="quote_poster">Quote:</div><div class="quote_post">This year's Shaq realized he was'nt the same person he used to be, and let Wade be the #1 option. <u>If the same was true for that Lakers team, I think they would have won the title.</u></div> Yall do know the discrepancy in Shaq's stats that series and everybody else on that team- including Kobe's? You're suggesting Shaq was trying to do too much on offense and his 55+% was less beneficial than Kobe's 35% ? Who should've been getting the touches then in your opinion? <div class="quote_poster">Quote:</div><div class="quote_post">That "team" was not even a TEAM. It was a bunch of all-stars on a team to win a title</div> So that Laker team was a 'bunch of all stars on a team trying to win a title' <u> And this Miami heat team this year was a</u> ........?? what <div class="quote_poster">Quote:</div><div class="quote_post">Grow the ***** up Shaq. </div> Grow the ***** up Shaq? I myself read an article that suggested if Kobe had played the game through Shaq- like the team gameplan was originally intended- instead of thinking he was Michael Jordan #2 in the making trying to run his own offense (in the process shooting 40% on 22.6 ppg) the Lakers would've likely put together a better performance. .... Grow the ***** up Shaq ?
WadeDynasty and Durvasa, I appreciate the insight, and don't take my posts offensive and as I am targetting a select few on this forum. <div class="quote_poster">Quote:</div><div class="quote_post">illmatic, You can only say player A is better than player B if he's played the same number of seasons? I don't get the logic of that.</div> not necessarily, but time's change. We're not in the 80's, or 90's anymore, times are different now. All I'm saying is, Next year Wade or LeBron can get injured, and their career can be done. Anyone remember Grant Hill? Now, does anyone remember talks of him being the next Jordan? His career stats are amazing, and if it wasn't for his injuries, and if he played every year since he started, who knows how good he would be. Durvasa, it's obvious you are pretty much a statistics guy, and go mainly off of that. I don't think Stats do justice for every aspect of basketball. As silly as it sounds, I don't believe you can use statistics to prove ANY point. It really depends on the situation. When Kobe and Shaq on the same team, Kobe had to be the "2nd guy" to Shaq. With this Heat team, Shaq is the second guy, what I don't understand is why people keep comparing these two duos? Now that Kobe has his freedom, he's been unbelievably on the offensive side, not to mention his defense is still one of the best in the league, so you can't just say he's got offensively. I believe when Shaq was with Kobe, Kobe couldn't perform to his potential, but with Wade, he can because Shaq has gave him the "go-ahead" and assumed his role.
<div class="quote_poster">Quoting illmatic:</div><div class="quote_post"> The difference between that Laker team and this Miami team was SHAQ DIDN'T PUT HIMSELF IN CHECK on that Lakers team and DEMANDED the ball everytime down the court. He still thought he was in his mid to late 20's again, and wanted EVERYTHING to go through him. In an article I read, if Shaq didn't touch the ball on the offensive side, he threatened not to play defense. Grow the ***** up Shaq. </div> In that series against Detroit, Kobe attempted 22.6 field goals a game (19.6 per 40 minutes), and he scored 22.6 ppg on 45.6% scoring efficiency (ts%). Shaq attempted only 16.8 field goals a game (15.8 per 40 minutes), and he scored 26.6 ppg on 61.5% scoring efficiency. It looks to me like the Lakers would have benefitted from getting Shaq more offensive touches in that series.
<div class="quote_poster">Quoting AIRTIGHT:</div><div class="quote_post">illmati: Yall do know the discrepancy in Shaq's stats that series and everybody else on that team- including Kobe's? You're suggesting Shaq was trying to do too much on offense and his 55+% was less beneficial than Kobe's 35% ? Who should've been getting the touches then in your opinion? So that Laker team was a 'bunch of all stars on a team trying to win a title' <u>And this Miami heat team this year was a ........?? </u>what Grow the ***** up Shaq? I myself read an article that suggested if Kobe had played the game through Shaq- like the team gameplan was originally intended- instead of thinking he was Michael Jordan #2 in the making trying to run his own offense-->in the process shooting 40% on 22.6 ppg, the Lakers would've likely put together a better performance. .... Grow the ***** up Shaq ?</div> You know, I really hate to compare Shaq's field goal percentage with a Guard such as Kobe. Shaq's shots were all in the key, and mostly dunks (true they are higher field goal percentage than a jump shot which would be the smarter choice) Shaq was still averaging over 50% FG in this year's regular season and playoffs too, so what's your point? About the Heat team being a all star team as well, yes that is True. But my question to you is, for the Lakers team, what was the starting lineup? Shaq, Kobe, Malone, Payton, etc. Did that Lakers team have a back up center for Shaq like Alonzo Mourning? I think not. Like I said this Laker team wasn't a real time IMO. What was the Heat? Posey haslem shaq wade williams Much different man, the All-Stars such as Payton, Alonzo, even Walker, assumed their role and were almost always coming off the bench (Walker I think was the exception) However, the Laker team their all-stars were starting the game so they played a different role than the Heat All-Stars did, get what I mean? http://sports.espn.go.com/nba/news/story?id=1648431 ^That's the article i was talking about. One-sided? True, but probably not that far from the truth. Like I said, we need to stop comparing these two teams, they are nothing alike except the fact they had multiple All-Stars and Hall-of-Famers on both, however the Shaq role was MUCH different.
<div class="quote_poster">Quoting durvasa:</div><div class="quote_post">In that series against Detroit, Kobe attempted 22.6 field goals a game (19.6 per 40 minutes), and he scored 22.6 ppg on 45.6% scoring efficiency (ts%). Shaq attempted only 16.8 field goals a game (15.8 per 40 minutes), and he scored 26.6 ppg on 61.5% scoring efficiency. It looks to me like the Lakers would have benefitted from getting Shaq more offensive touches in that series.</div> Thanks for the stats. I bet, however, Kobe wasn't getting a handful of phantom fouls each game during that series as well. Hate to resort to that, but Wade setting the Finals record for FTM/FTA, uhhhh, something isn't right there my friend. I mean is it really fair to compare Shaq to Kobe/Wade's FG percentage? How many alley-oops was Shaq getting from Kobe/Fisher/Shaw and Wade/Payton etc, etc. How many times did Kobe or Wade drive in the lane, get 3 defenders on them, and hand the ball to Shaq for the easy dunk. And if you ask me, Shaq's high field goal percentage is great and all, but why don't you talk about his low FT percentage? In my opinion, that outweighs his high FG% in comparison to Kobe's lower FG%. Shaq going 1/9 from FRee throw line is just disgusting, yet all we hear about is high FG% percentage that comes from easy Dunk oppurtunities mostly created by his teammates.
<div class="quote_poster">Quote:</div><div class="quote_post">All I'm saying is, Next year Wade or LeBron can get injured, and their career can be done. Anyone remember Grant Hill? Now, does anyone remember talks of him being the next Jordan? His career stats are amazing, and if it wasn't for his injuries, and if he played every year since he started, who knows how good he would be.</div> Sure, injuries are part of the game. Kobe could end up breaking something in a fluke accident in the offseason as well, and as a result he'd probably fall short of the legend status he's seems destined for right now. Again, I haven't come across anyone who's argued Wade already has a better career. Some feel Wade has surpassed Kobe as the better player, right now. Is he more "skilled", probably not. He is more knowledgable? Doubtful. But, even given that, it's still possible he's a better player overall -- i.e. choosing Wade over Kobe as your SG would give you a better chance to win. I mean, that's not an insane stance to have. Personally, I'm sort of on the fence on this topic right now. Right now, if I had to choose, I'd take Wade over Bryant. <div class="quote_poster">Quote:</div><div class="quote_post">Durvasa, it's obvious you are pretty much a statistics guy, and go mainly off of that. I don't think Stats do justice for every aspect of basketball. As silly as it sounds, I don't believe you can use statistics to prove ANY point. It really depends on the situation.</div> I agree with you, in part. Some aspects of the game (particularly on the defensive end) are extremely difficult to quantify. There are some metrics which help, but nothing very accurate. The purpose of using statistics isn't necessarily to rigorously prove one player is "better" than another. I prefer to use them to inform the debate, or to dispel ideas which are based less on facts and more on hazy impressions. <div class="quote_poster">Quote:</div><div class="quote_post">I believe when Shaq was with Kobe, Kobe couldn't perform to his potential, but with Wade, he can because Shaq has gave him the "go-ahead" and assumed his role.</div> That's a perfectly valid point. It has been shown elsewhere that Wade's individual numbers appear to increase with Shaq off the court. So just as Kobe is now flourishing without Shaq clogging up space (after a one season adjustment period), I think it's possible the same could happen with Wade should Shaq suddenly choose to retire.
