<div class="quote_poster">Quoting illmatic:</div><div class="quote_post">Thanks for the stats. I bet, however, Kobe wasn't getting a handful of phantom fouls each game during that series as well. Hate to resort to that, but Wade setting the Finals record for FTM/FTA, uhhhh, something isn't right there my friend. I mean is it really fair to compare Shaq to Kobe/Wade's FG percentage? How many alley-oops was Shaq getting from Kobe/Fisher/Shaw and Wade/Payton etc, etc.</div> Kobe only attempted 5 free throws a game. But Wade clearly is more aggressive attacking the basket and physically accepting the beating. You have to admit, Kobe has a tendency to be trigger happy. For the series, he was 4 for 23 from three point range. <div class="quote_poster">Quote:</div><div class="quote_post">And if you ask me, Shaq's high field goal percentage is great and all, but why don't you talk about his low FT percentage? In my opinion, that outweighs his high FG% in comparison to Kobe's lower FG%.</div> The scoring efficiency numbers is not FG%. It's actually TS% (true shooting%), which is proportional to the number of points a player produced per shot attempt (taking into shot attempts resulting in free throws). The formula is: TS% = 0.5 * points / (FGA + 0.44*FTA). Very useful for quickly evaluating how efficient a player is. For example, Shaq's FG% in the series was 63%, but looking at his TS% the overall scoring efficiency drops down to 61%. <div class="quote_poster">Quote:</div><div class="quote_post">Shaq going 1/9 from FRee throw line is just disgusting, yet all we hear about is high FG% percentage that comes from easy Dunk oppurtunities mostly created by his teammates.</div> So, in the Dallas series, his TS% ends up being only around 53% -- which is just about league average. You're right, free throws make Shaq a less efficient scorer.
I see, thanks for the information. You know what, one thing I love about Wade is he's a very smart player. By that I mean, when I watch him play, I tihnk to myself, WHY DOESN'T KOBE DO THAT. One aspect of Wade's game I really like is the fact that he barely shoots any 3 pointers. Granted, Kobe is a far better shooter from long range, but I like Wade's discipline to not throw up 10 a game. I truly hope next year Kobe realizes he needs to stop falling in love with the jumper, or the unnecessary fade-a-ways and instead drive the ball to the basket in hopes of making a layup, getting fouled, or dishing the ball out to his teammates. I also like Wade's ability to kiss the ball off the glass very beautifully. You know, writing this post, I realized I don't hate Wade, it's just all the Shaq-hating in me has made be far more critical on Wade, when in fact, I love his game and his dribbling/swagger on the court (besides the cockiness from the time to time) One thing I HATE about Wade is how he falls to the ground on nearly every play. It's very annoying to watch and it will backfire on him one day. I'm pretty much done debating in this thread as I feel a couple of you have brought up excellent points and I consider myself a very open minded person when arguing a point or debating, I don't shut down other people's opinions. I listen and I learn. I really hope Kobe has been watching the finals and has been watching Wade play and see how it has been working for him, and that he(Kobe) does not need to shoot as much, especially the long ball, and start taking it to the hole. You can argue the defense doubles or triples Kobe, but they do that also with Wade and LeBron, but that doesn't stop them. Kobe needs to start boosting up his FG percentage, starting going 12/17 instead of 12/25 (although still efficient) I can also understand how annoyed Non-Laker and Non-Kobe fans get from us Laker fans because all we talk about is Kobe. Since LeBron and Wade came in to the league, I know understand what it feels like when people don't shut up about their favorite player, especially when they're one of the best in the league. I think we all need to stop the childish Kobe > Wade, LeBron > Wade stuff as it gets us no where, when we all know they are the top 3 in the league. Sorry for the long post, I'm out for now.
Fine post, illmatic. I agree, it appears Kobe, LeBron, and Wade have separated themselves from the rest of the league.
<div class="quote_poster">Quoting illmatic:</div><div class="quote_post">I see, thanks for the information. You know what, one thing I love about Wade is he's a very smart player. By that I mean, when I watch him play, I tihnk to myself, WHY DOESN'T KOBE DO THAT. One aspect of Wade's game I really like is the fact that he barely shoots any 3 pointers. Granted, Kobe is a far better shooter from long range, but I like Wade's discipline to not throw up 10 a game. I truly hope next year Kobe realizes he needs to stop falling in love with the jumper, or the unnecessary fade-a-ways and instead drive the ball to the basket in hopes of making a layup, getting fouled, or dishing the ball out to his teammates. I also like Wade's ability to kiss the ball off the glass very beautifully. </div> Sorry, I have to disagree with what u said. First of all, the followings are all my opinions. The reason why Kobe doesn't go to the basket as much as Wade does is that he has to protect himself. Going strong to the basket all the time may get you injured. Injury can really end a player's career. I am not saying not to drive to the basket at all, but you have to be smart and know when is the best time to drive to the basket. If going strong to the basket works all the time, why MJ and Kobe worked on their fade away, jump shots, 3 pointers? They realized that driving to the basket won't work forever. Otherwise, you will end up being another Vince Carter who you know are famous of dunking the ball all over the place or even worse....being another Grant Hill or Penny Hardaway. The way Wade is playing is not doing any good to his career. He pressures his legs and knees too much. He may end up being injury prone and his career will be doomed. If he is smart enough, he will work on his jump shots alot and start shooting 20 feets away from the basket. I remember MJ and Kobe all went strong to the basket all the time when they were young. (Kobe is still young ) I doubt anyone can do that in NBA all the time for 15 to 20 years. That's why MJ could still play hard when he was 40. Amazing. You have to be injury-free to do that. One more reason why wade goes strong to the basket all the time is he is not confident enough on his jumpshots while Kobe is a way better jump shooter.
<div class="quote_poster">Quoting WadeDynasty:</div><div class="quote_post">Can Any Lakers fans give a little bit of ..just a little bit of props to Wade for winning a title? I know it's nothing for Kobe but Wade did it once too.</div> I've been giving Wade nothing but Props this entire season!!! Read the threads more carefully. At the beginning of this year, I posted several times that I thought Wade was better than Lebron James. Is that enough for you? What else do you want me to say?
TopLake, I agree with what some of your points. One part I disagree with is: <div class="quote_poster">Quote:</div><div class="quote_post">If going strong to the basket works all the time, why MJ and Kobe worked on their fade away, jump shots, 3 pointers? They realized that driving to the basket won't work forever.</div> Part of being an efficient offensive player is to keep the defense guessing what move you're going to make. If a player ALWAYS goes to the basket, he becomes pretty predictable. However, when the player does both driving in and shooting the jumpshot, the defender has a much more difficult task guarding that player. For example, if me and you play 1 on 1. And from playing with you, I notice you LOVE to take the jump shot and almost rarely take it in. How do you think I'll defend you? I'm gonna be right up in your grill and make you pass me and drive to the hoop. If you were the opposite way around, I'd give you some space in case you tried to drive past me. I'm not saying that Kobe should DRIVE to the basket, EVERY single time. But he certainly needs to start doing it way more. Why? because it opens up a window of oppurtunity. It attracts 2 or 3 defenders allowing him to dish it to an open player, it allows him to get fouled and possibly an And-1 situation. It allows him to get an easy dunk or lay up therefore increasing his FG % and shooting efficiency. I agree with you that Dwayne Wade is gonna pay for all the driving in, falling, and wearing out his knees. He said in the press conference after Finals that, "people said I can't shoot, I don't know where they got that from" He proved to me he can shoot in this series. Imagine guarding Wade in the Post season, especially the Finals. It was nearly impossible to guard him, because if you get up all close on him, he will burn you and drive to the basket. If you give him his space, he will spot up and make the jump shot. That's why you need both aspects of your offensive game just as much, to keep the defender guessing.
Yea, kobe may need to go strong to the basket more, but I also see that when there is chance, he will drive to the basket. Otherwise, he couldn't get 81 pts or 62 pts in 3 quarters all from jumpshots. hehe....Kobe already drawing 2 or 3 defenders even when he is like 25 feet away from the basket. And for Wade, I remember there are many times he got hurt in a play and in less than 3 second, he suddenly went up strong to the basket. He better be careful. His body condition is important for his career if he plan to play for another 15 years.
<div class="quote_poster">Quoting illmatic:</div><div class="quote_post"> I agree with you that Dwayne Wade is gonna pay for all the driving in, falling, and wearing out his knees. He said in the press conference after Finals that, "people said I can't shoot, I don't know where they got that from" He proved to me he can shoot in this series. Imagine guarding Wade in the Post season, especially the Finals. It was nearly impossible to guard him, because if you get up all close on him, he will burn you and drive to the basket. If you give him his space, he will spot up and make the jump shot.</div> I still think he needs to work on his jumpshot alot. The reason you saw him shooting the ball better outside the paint was 80% of the time, Mavs put Harris to guard wade. Harris is so much shorter and weaker than Wade. Wade can just create his own space and shoot the ball over Harris easier than over anybody else. Johnson should put Howards against Wade instead of Harris.
It sounds like ya'll are over trying to change it up a lil bit and be nice and cordial and all that--- but I aint no where near done. <div class="quote_poster">Quote:</div><div class="quote_post">You know, I really hate to compare Shaq's field goal percentage with a Guard such as Kobe. Shaq's shots were all in the key, and mostly dunks (true they are higher field goal percentage than a jump shot which would be the smarter choice) Shaq was still averaging over 50% FG in this year's regular season and playoffs too, so what's your point?</div> Will somebody tell these dudes that the purpose of playing the game is to win. How yall are over here talking about Shaq was holding Kobe down all these years and this and that---- They we're winning games, thats the point. <u>You exploit the most lucrative option in order to improve chances of success</u>. THAT is why they should've gone to Shaq instead of Kobe in that series----- and THAT is why Shaq was by far the more important or "better" option scoring wise/ not to mention in many other aspects. You guys wanna have an argument similar to this " Look at Kobe's stats without Shaq, he's scoring wayyy more than Wade, ie; he's better than Wade is" My argument is " look at Kobe's wins without Shaq, Wade is wayy more successful.-- with a lesser Shaq btw" If you wanna compare these guys- compare them when they were in similar situations; compare Wade now to <font color=""Purple"">Kobe</font> with Shaq ( Kobe' should've definetly had the better team as he had a better Shaq). Notice that if Shaq had been struggling in the Detroit series the ideal thing to do would be to let Kobe do work then, right? -- They tried that. IF YOU GUYS ARE SUGGESTING THAT SHAQ'S 24 ppg at 63% IN THAT SERIES HELD <font color=""purple"">KOBE </font>DOWN to 22ppg at 40%- AND IF SHAQ HAD BEEN A LESSER PLAYER THEN (LIKE HE IS NOW WITH WADE) THAT <font color=""purple"">KOBE </font>WOULD'VE SOMEHOW <u>OVERCOMPENSATED</u> AND WON THAT SERIES BY HIMSELF; YOU ARE A JOKE. So since you are not saying that-- what exactly are yall saying that makes what Kobe was better than what Wade is ? Or better than Wade now? 1 more thing esp. for the Laker fans on here-- tell us again why Kobe never won an MVP or Finals MVP?
First off, the NBA as the NFL is based on "what have you done for me lately" and lately Wade has won an NBA Championship. Honestly, just because of Shaq I really don't hope Wade will be compared to Kobe for the rest of his career. Kobe is a great player. Wade is a great player. Now please, I hope these discussions end...
...looks like the already did homie. These Laker fans have seemed to finally make that quick exit on the Kobe< threads ; this being the 3rd strike Jordan, Lebron and finally Wade
<div class="quote_poster">Quoting C.K.:</div><div class="quote_post">First off, the NBA as the NFL is based on "what have you done for me lately" and lately Wade has won an NBA Championship. Honestly, just because of Shaq I really don't hope Wade will be compared to Kobe for the rest of his career. Kobe is a great player. Wade is a great player. Now please, I hope these discussions end...</div> This discussion has ended... Seems Airtight wants us to comeback to play hosue with him again. He keeps posting in the Lakers forum that he misses us.
<div class="quote_poster">Quote:</div><div class="quote_post">Just don't wanna reply to some biased posts </div> So facts, stats, and championships and all that kind of stuff make for 'biased' posts? - Ooh you're talking about biased in favor of Kobe.- we'll yeah I guess i'll agree with that; I'll go ahead and try to reply anyway tho Hey I was watching an old Wiz Vs Lakers tape from the Jordan comeback. This was a time where someone could actually in some ways engage a respectable argument that Kobe may be better than Jordan-- as he was a 3 time champ and playing nice all around ball. Watching the game I started to focus on Devean George- and got to thinkin: " you know, this guy has made no strides at all in improving his game thoughout his entire career he's been playing with the Lakers!! -hmmm, I found that to be very odd. As I kept watching the game, and analyzing the two teams then, and the status and differences of the league and players today- I was remembering a conversation on the local Laker station and found myself at another question-- ... In his 10 years in the league, <u>Name one player who Kobe Bryant has made better.</u>
<div class="quote_poster">Quoting durvasa:</div><div class="quote_post">Kobe was at 38% for the series. His overall scoring efficiency was a very poor 45.6% (ts%). Didn't he have some health problems at the time, though? He did have one very good game in game 2. If I remember, he almost single handedly won that game for the Lakers.</div> not to mention arape trial looming over him, and the rest of the lakers were banged up and had horrible chemistry, while a pistons team with amazing chemistry made a plan to shut down kobe. the lakers got beat. but they were going for their 4th in like 6-7 years. they have to lose sometimes.
..not like that they dont---- nobody has to lose like that. somebody pull up the stats on the year before that then since yall dont wanna discuss that Finals' year. Pull up the stats on the San Antonio series they lost in 03'
<div class="quote_poster">Quoting AIRTIGHT:</div><div class="quote_post">..not like that they dont---- nobody has to lose like that. somebody pull up the stats on the year before that then since yall dont wanna discuss that Finals' year. Pull up the stats on the San Antonio series they lost in 03'</div> Why cant the pistons get credit for being the superior team, and pulling off one of the greatest upsets ever? they played great. quit bashing kobe. The lakers had horrible chemistry and have the team was injured.
This thread is Wade vs Kobe. How am I bashing Kobe by wanting to pull up some stats? The hell do you mean 'why cant the Pistons get credit for being the superior team'? Why do they even play in the first place then? This thread was set up to compare these two players and thats what im trying to do. How do you talk about bad chemistry-- like we go throughout the record books like " oh dont worry about them losing all those games, they had bad chemistry..... dont compare him to this guy, his team had bad chemistry". Yall can shut the hell up with that. This team was damn near identical-- had a coaching change, the starting lineup changed at 3 of the 5 positions. Oneal's failing athleticism and ability. Im sure if Miami had lost-- ya'll Laker fans wouldnt come on here supporting and rationlizing Wade with " oh ok i'll give you that one they had bad chemsitry."
the pistons get no credit for winning. people always say that the lakers just choked, but they didnt. They were an inferior team plagued by injuries. and kobe had a lot of stuff on his mind with the trial going on. I am not saying this is even at all, so dont freak out, but tiger missed the cut at the us open this year by a lot after his dad died, that affected his play. you dont think that kobe's play was affected by the trial at all? and as someone said earlier, the pistons were on a mission to shut down kobe. so with all these obstacles, 22 ppg is pretty damn descent. Airtight, show me ALL these stats and facts you keep bringing up please. I cant seem to find em?
Kobe Bryant's stats for last finals' series 03-04' 8th season 22.6 ppg 38% 2.8 reb 4.4 ast L vs Detroit 1-4 Dwyane Wade's stats for first finals' series 05-06' 3rd season 34.7 ppg 46.8% 7.8 reb 3.8 ast W vs Dallas 4-2 <div class="quote_poster">Quote:</div><div class="quote_post">and as someone said earlier, <u>the pistons were on a mission to shut down kobe</u>. so with all these obstacles, 22 ppg is pretty damn descent.</div> ... yeah, I was just gonna say that- esp. since they came within 3 games of winning the championship too! >>>>>> Like most of the time's teams play they dont go on a "mission to shut down" an opposing player Shaq 03-04' 24pts 63% With Kobe L 4-1 05-06' 13pts 61% With Wade w 4-2 (Shaq was having a pretty decent series Individually with the Lakers -- the "chemistry" must have only affected Kobe then) Now your turn-- Show me your facts, and then after that ... In his 10 years in the league, Name one player who Kobe Bryant has made better.
