c'mon y'all! all that acquisition don't seem to solve our dishing problem

<div class="quote_poster">Quoting barngrill:</div><div class="quote_post">I don't believe I mentioned the words PG anywhere in my discussion. All I said was we need a passer or a playmaker.This has to be his mentality first and foremost, NOT DASHING OR SCORING..</div>
What your describing is a PG. In your first comment, every example you gave were PG's, Magic, Nash etc...........[/QUOTE]

<div class="quote_poster">Quoting barngrill:</div><div class="quote_post"> Look at San Antonio, Manu, Parker, Mohammed, Duncan, Horry, Bowen, all are incredibly unselfish players, even Detroit has a ton of them. The playmakers on those teams are Parker, Manu, and Billups, eventhough they're awesome individual scorers, they are all looking to pass first, I don't believe we have these type of guys right now. John Barry and Yao Ming are the most unselfish players on the team, but they're Not Playmakers! And forgive me for being so blunt, T-Mac looks to pass only as a last resort or when he thinks he can make a highlight reel dishing. James and Sura? These guys looked like they played power forwards in highschool, cuz they love to bury their head and ram into the crowd.</div>
No No No No.................I don't know where you got this information from. Yes Yao and Barry are very unselfish, but so is Sura, Wesley, DA, and my boy Tmac. We may not have a pure PG, but collectively we're a good passing team. The problem last year was that we didn't have any finishers. This year that won't be a problem. The offense is ran thru Tmac, so he'll be the main playmaker on the team. With Tmac and Yao the focal point, the lanes will be wide open for Swift and DA to fly thru. I wouldn't panic. Payton would be an excellent pick up, but it wouldn't be horrible if we didn't get him. Like I said, collectivley we have a unselfish team.

 

This need for a pure pass first point has been discussed alot. I want to know when did Sura become scorer that looks for his own shot. 5 apg aint spectacular but consider that Tmac often gets his own offense and doesnt have to be set up, and was often the runner of the offense. we have a more athletic team now with more options. With the current guards i would be very surprised if Sura isnt the opening night starter.

 

I think it'll be cool to get Gary, but like everyone said..it's not a must and I won't die because we don't get him
It wouldn't hurt to have him and it wouldn't hurt to not have him

 

We can coe without a playmaker, but there is no way we are getting the title without one.

Do we want to be a mediocre playoff team? Or the CHamps???

 

<div class="quote_poster">Quoting barngrill:</div><div class="quote_post">What? Do you watch any NBA games? You better rewind the 2005 NBA Finals tape! Billus, Parker, Ginobili, do these names ring any bells? They are not just awesome passing guards, they're PLAYMAKERS!!!
</div>
What is your definition of a playmaker? Anyone who plays on a winning team, and isn't on the Rockets? It sounds like you're saying that everyone on the San Antonio roster is better at passing and "playmaking" than the guys on the Rockets.

The only way I think you can measure playmaking abilities is by looking at assist numbers. Okay, let's do so. The San Antonio Spurs averaged 21.6 assists as a team. The Detroit Pistons averaged 21.8 per game. The Miami Heat averaged 21.8. The Rockets? 21.1 assists per game. How is it that 0.7 assists per game make us a team without any playmakers and one in desperate need of one? TMac was a ball-hog, okay, but a hog who averaged 5.7 assists a game? Sura used to play power forward, okay, but one who averaged 5.2 assists a game, coincidentally also higher than Hamilton, Damon Jones, and almost everyone on the San Antonio roster?

 

<div class="quote_poster">Quoting dakeem1:</div><div class="quote_post">We can coe without a playmaker, but there is no way we are getting the title without one.

Do we want to be a mediocre playoff team? Or the CHamps???</div>
Thank You, My point exactly!
<div class="quote_poster">Quoting Trip:</div><div class="quote_post">What is your definition of a playmaker? Anyone who plays on a winning team, and isn't on the Rockets? It sounds like you're saying that everyone on the San Antonio roster is better at passing and "playmaking" than the guys on the Rockets.

The only way I think you can measure playmaking abilities is by looking at assist numbers. Okay, let's do so. The San Antonio Spurs averaged 21.6 assists as a team. The Detroit Pistons averaged 21.8 per game. The Miami Heat averaged 21.8. The Rockets? 21.1 assists per game. How is it that 0.7 assists per game make us a team without any playmakers and one in desperate need of one? TMac was a ball-hog, okay, but a hog who averaged 5.7 assists a game? Sura used to play power forward, okay, but one who averaged 5.2 assists a game, coincidentally also higher than Hamilton, Damon Jones, and almost everyone on the San Antonio roster?</div>



I watched pretty much every Rockets game last season. I hate ta say this, but I couldn't recollect one game where there were any significant number of smooth passing setups. And go watch the tapes again, sura, this guy never pass ta Yao Ming. It's like Yao doesn't even exist on the court. The only times he does dish to Yao are more likely through opponents defensive pressure.

What does a playmaker do. If you played competitive soccer like I do, you would understand this much clearer. A playmaker in soccer is usually a the midfielder, he's the one who gets the most touches in the game, the offense goes through him most of the time. He is an incredible dribbler, hardly anyone can steal the ball from him and he can dribble past them with ease. He is usually a very competant scorer, but he rarely takes a shot, and when he does take one, it's usually on target or at least dangerous (you do score a lot less in soccer). his main job is to pick apart the defense, finding the holes to thread the ball through to the strikers. I play both sports competitively, and I can tell you, there are a lot more similarities than one might think.

In bball, the playmaker does score quite a bit, but the main damage is done on the dishing end. You can go without a playmaker even up to the conference championship, but you're not gonna win the title without him. Because without a playmaker, YOU HAVE NO CONFIDENCE ON HOW YOU OFFENSE WILL execute EVERY TIME YOU GET UP COURT. The playmaker doesn't have to be PG, Michael Jordan was a great playmaker, Larry Bird was a great playmaker. Do we the rockets have anyone that can deliver the ball with incredible accuracy and majestic ease? Not even close. So I project, without getting a serious passer, we won't get pass the second round of the playoffs.

<font color="red">As I've said before, please use the 'edit' button to add on to a previous post.~Trip</font>

 

<div class="quote_poster">Quoting Trip:</div><div class="quote_post">What is your definition of a playmaker? Anyone who plays on a winning team, and isn't on the Rockets? It sounds like you're saying that everyone on the San Antonio roster is better at passing and "playmaking" than the guys on the Rockets.

The only way I think you can measure playmaking abilities is by looking at assist numbers. Okay, let's do so. The San Antonio Spurs averaged 21.6 assists as a team. The Detroit Pistons averaged 21.8 per game. The Miami Heat averaged 21.8. The Rockets? 21.1 assists per game. How is it that 0.7 assists per game make us a team without any playmakers and one in desperate need of one? TMac was a ball-hog, okay, but a hog who averaged 5.7 assists a game? Sura used to play power forward, okay, but one who averaged 5.2 assists a game, coincidentally also higher than Hamilton, Damon Jones, and almost everyone on the San Antonio roster?</div>



I watched pretty much every Rockets game last season. I hate ta say this, but I couldn't recollect one game where there were any significant number of smooth passing setups. And go watch the tapes again, sura, this guy never pass ta Yao Ming. It's like Yao doesn't even exist on the court. The only times he does dish to Yao are more likely through opponents defensive pressure.

What does a playmaker do. If you played competitive soccer like I do, you would understand this much clearer. A playmaker in soccer is usually a the midfielder, he's the one who gets the most touches in the game, the offense goes through him most of the time. He is an incredible dribbler, hardly anyone can steal the ball from him and he can dribble past them with ease. He is usually a very competant scorer, but he rarely takes a shot, and when he does take one, it's usually on target or at least dangerous (you do score a lot less in soccer). his main job is to pick apart the defense, finding the holes to thread the ball through to the strikers. I play both sports competitively, and I can tell you, there are a lot more similarities than one might think.

In bball, the playmaker does score quite a bit, but the main damage is done on the dishing end. You can go without a playmaker even up to the conference championship, but you're not gonna win the title without him. Because without a playmaker, YOU HAVE NO CONFIDENCE ON HOW YOU OFFENSE WILL execute EVERY TIME YOU GET UP COURT. The playmaker doesn't have to be PG, Michael Jordan was a great playmaker, Larry Bird was a great playmaker. Do we the rockets have anyone that can deliver the ball with incredible accuracy and majestic ease? Not even close. So I project, without getting a serious passer, we won't get pass the second round of the playoffs.

 

If there never is an obvious set-up, then you're wrong. I seem to recall that the Rockets' main strategy is to post Yao on one side of the court and Sura dumps it down to him, and we then work from there. Yao tries to post up, or dishes it back out to TMac who can proceed to slash. It's either that or TMac gets the ball outside the three point line and then gets a pick and roll from Yao. If you don't see any smooth passing and threading of passes, you should blame Van Gundy for not drawing up a better plan. It takes two players to make a spectular and smooth transitional pass, and even if we have Steve Nash, we won't take full advantage of him if no one knows where he'll pass to.

Btw, I know my soccer, thanks for the lesson. My favorite team is Liverpool, and my favorite players are Steven Gerrard and Xabi Alonso. I'm sure if you know you're soccer, you'll know who they are and how great they are at playmaking., although that's talk for another day.

 

<div class="quote_poster">Quoting barngrill:</div><div class="quote_post">I watched pretty much every Rockets game last season. I hate ta say this, but I couldn't recollect one game where there were any significant number of smooth passing setups..</div>
You couldn't have, because I did too, and the Rockets were a pretty good passing team. I can remember a number of Tmac and Yao passes to open players on the perimeter and for dunks. Who were you watching?

<div class="quote_poster">Quoting barngrill:</div><div class="quote_post">What does a playmaker do. If you played competitive soccer like I do, you would understand this much clearer. A playmaker in soccer is usually a the midfielder. ..</div>Uuuuuuum.............And your point was??
<div class="quote_poster">Quoting barngrill:</div><div class="quote_post">In bball, the playmaker does score quite a bit, but the main damage is done on the dishing end. You can go without a playmaker even up to the conference championship, but you're not gonna win the title without him. Because without a playmaker, YOU HAVE NO CONFIDENCE ON HOW YOU OFFENSE WILL execute EVERY TIME YOU GET UP COURT. The playmaker doesn't have to be PG, Michael Jordan was a great playmaker, Larry Bird was a great playmaker. Do we the rockets have anyone that can deliver the ball with incredible accuracy and majestic ease? Not even close. So I project, without getting a serious passer, we won't get pass the second round of the playoffs.</div>
I don't know how many Rockets games you watch, but we have a pretty good guy by the name of Tracy Mcgrady that is one of the top 3 "PLAYMAKERS" in the league. If you haven't noticed him, he plays SF, and his jersey number is 1. It seems like your seriously underestimating our BEST players BEST quality, which is making plays. I think you lost me when you tried helplessly to compare your days of playin soccer to basketball. Since your standards of a passer are so high, who was the Lakers "Great passer" when they won 3 championships?

 

If we get a passer i hope we trade away 2 gaurds to ease our back court

 

The Rockets are looking more and more like the makeup of the early 2000 Lakers...they have a dominant big man and a dominant perimeter player...the Lakers had a PG who could shoot some and defend in Fisher; the Rockets have a PG who can penetrate and shoot in Sura...the Rockets' offense consists mostly of post-ups, isolations and pick-and-rolls...for this particular offense, its not too important that you have a "playmaker" at the 1 spot...you just have to have playmakers period...and the rockets do...mcgrady, anderson, sura, james-they can all make plays...we're entering a new era in basketball where the consumate point guard no longer exists, and we have combo guards who are athletic and can score while also being capable ballhandlers...Houston is find at the point guard spot for now...I have confidence that Sura and James are more than capable of handling point duties...

 

^
I agree with just about everything you said, except one smallllll part, and that is Sura cant shoot, infact he's one of the worst shooters i've ever seen. And he can't pass the ball down low to Yao either. He IS the worst on our team at getting the ball to Yao, and he is our starting pg? Not to mention slow, old, injury-prone, and oh yea, he can't play a lick of D against any premiere gaurd in this league. What's the answer, not sure but James isn't. He is a great spark of the bench but does not need to be considered as our starting pg, so everyone who is saying so needs to stop.

 

I think we can do absolutely fine with our current guards, and can even make it deep in the playoffs. But I still don't see us going all the way. We have to be patient though and we can't just go snapping pu PG's coz we need the perfect one.

We have enough point guards already. And we can win games with them. But if the opportunity comes to ship them off for a playmaking guard, then we should take it coz it will elevate the rockets to the nex level.

 

We have enough point gaurds?! We have one point gaurd, and he comes off the bench (James). The rest are two's trying to be pg. WE NEED Earl Watson, he is quick, good ball-handler, great passer and his defense is smothering. His only drawback is that he isn't the best shooter, but Sura is worse. Can someone please tell me what the story is on this kid;has he been picked up yet, can we afford him or do we need a sign and trade worked out with Memphis inorder to make this happen??????

 

<div class="quote_poster">Quoting side45wayz:</div><div class="quote_post">^
I agree with just about everything you said, except one smallllll part, and that is Sura cant shoot, infact he's one of the worst shooters i've ever seen. And he can't pass the ball down low to Yao either. He IS the worst on our team at getting the ball to Yao, and he is our starting pg? Not to mention slow, old, injury-prone, and oh yea, he can't play a lick of D against any premiere gaurd in this league. What's the answer, not sure but James isn't. He is a great spark of the bench but does not need to be considered as our starting pg, so everyone who is saying so needs to stop.</div>Unlike some other fans here, you obviously were paying attention to details when you were watching the games. IT'S SOOOO OBVIOUS THAT SURA CAN'T PASS FOR S**T. He rarely, if ever, sees Yao, or pass to him willingly. He is a horrific point guard.
<div class="quote_poster">Quoting Shooter:</div><div class="quote_post">The Rockets are looking more and more like the makeup of the early 2000 Lakers...they have a dominant big man and a dominant perimeter player...the Lakers had a PG who could shoot some and defend in Fisher; the Rockets have a PG who can penetrate and shoot in Sura...the Rockets' offense consists mostly of post-ups, isolations and pick-and-rolls...for this particular offense, its not too important that you have a "playmaker" at the 1 spot...you just have to have playmakers period...and the rockets do...mcgrady, anderson, sura, james-they can all make plays...we're entering a new era in basketball where the consumate point guard no longer exists, and we have combo guards who are athletic and can score while also being capable ballhandlers...Houston is find at the point guard spot for now...I have confidence that Sura and James are more than capable of handling point duties...</div>Don't get me wrong, I think they are great players, but Yao Ming is not Shaq, and TMac is definitely not Kobe, despite his assanine personality. Kobe may be an asshole, but he's a winner/asshole, he's is an incredible playmaker who makes very few mistakes and can score everywhich way and against everybody. He was pretty close to MJ in that regard.

<div class="quote_poster">Quoting Rock4life:</div><div class="quote_post">You couldn't have, because I did too, and the Rockets were a pretty good passing team. I can remember a number of Tmac and Yao passes to open players on the perimeter and for dunks. Who were you watching?

Uuuuuuum.............And your point was??

I don't know how many Rockets games you watch, but we have a pretty good guy by the name of Tracy Mcgrady that is one of the top 3 "PLAYMAKERS" in the league. If you haven't noticed him, he plays SF, and his jersey number is 1. It seems like your seriously underestimating our BEST players BEST quality, which is making plays. I think you lost me when you tried helplessly to compare your days of playin soccer to basketball. Since your standards of a passer are so high, who was the Lakers "Great passer" when they won 3 championships?</div>A number of dunks, when you're 7ft5,you're bound to get open dunks. It don't mean didaly. If you haven't gotten my point you should reread my post, did I say the Rockets are gonna stink this season? No, I simply meant they're not a championship caliber team, they need a playmaker to become one. The premises here are that the Rockets are aiming for the title every season with this group of guys.

TMac is a great player, but he's not Kobe, and he'll never be compared to MJ, because he's not a clutch type of guy, and he can't always get open for a good shot during pressure situations. Just because he's gotten a couple of buzzer beaters doesn't make him a playmaker.

Laker's 3 Ring playmakers? Jeff fisher, Kobe Bryant, Shaq, to name a few. fisher is an underated point guard who makes very few turn overs and good decisions; Kobe can score at will or find an open man; Shaq has great vision for a big man, his indirect assists are what make the Lakers go, and himself the MDP.

 

<div class="quote_poster">Quoting Shooter:</div><div class="quote_post">The Rockets are looking more and more like the makeup of the early 2000 Lakers...they have a dominant big man and a dominant perimeter player...the Lakers had a PG who could shoot some and defend in Fisher; the Rockets have a PG who can penetrate and shoot in Sura...the Rockets' offense consists mostly of post-ups, isolations and pick-and-rolls...for this particular offense, its not too important that you have a "playmaker" at the 1 spot...you just have to have playmakers period...and the rockets do...mcgrady, anderson, sura, james-they can all make plays...we're entering a new era in basketball where the consumate point guard no longer exists, and we have combo guards who are athletic and can score while also being capable ballhandlers...Houston is find at the point guard spot for now...I have confidence that Sura and James are more than capable of handling point duties...</div>Don't get me wrong, I think they are great players, but Yao Ming is not Shaq, and TMac is definitely not Kobe, despite his assanine personality. Kobe may be an asshole, but he's a winner/asshole, he's is an incredible playmaker who makes very few mistakes and can score everywhich way and against everybody. He was pretty close to MJ in that regard.

<div class="quote_poster">Quoting Rock4life:</div><div class="quote_post">You couldn't have, because I did too, and the Rockets were a pretty good passing team. I can remember a number of Tmac and Yao passes to open players on the perimeter and for dunks. Who were you watching?

Uuuuuuum.............And your point was??

I don't know how many Rockets games you watch, but we have a pretty good guy by the name of Tracy Mcgrady that is one of the top 3 "PLAYMAKERS" in the league. If you haven't noticed him, he plays SF, and his jersey number is 1. It seems like your seriously underestimating our BEST players BEST quality, which is making plays. I think you lost me when you tried helplessly to compare your days of playin soccer to basketball. Since your standards of a passer are so high, who was the Lakers "Great passer" when they won 3 championships?</div>A number of dunks, when you're 7ft5,you're bound to get open dunks. It don't mean didaly. If you haven't gotten my point you should reread my post, did I say the Rockets are gonna stink this season? No, I simply meant they're not a championship caliber team, they need a playmaker to become one. The premises here are that the Rockets are aiming for the title every season with this group of guys.

TMac is a great player, but he's not Kobe, and he'll never be compared to MJ, because he's not a clutch type of guy, and he can't always get open for a good shot during pressure situations. Just because he's gotten a couple of buzzer beaters doesn't make him a playmaker.

Laker's 3 Ring playmakers? Jeff fisher, Kobe Bryant, Shaq, to name a few. fisher is an underated point guard who makes very few turn overs and good decisions; Kobe can score at will or find an open man; Shaq has great vision for a big man, his indirect assists are what make the Lakers go, and himself the MDP.

 

A number of dunks, when you're 7ft5,you're bound to get open dunks. It don't mean didaly. If you haven't gotten my point you should reread my post, did I say the Rockets are gonna stink this season? No, I simply meant they're not a championship caliber team, they need a playmaker to become one. The premises here are that the Rockets are aiming for the title every season with this group of guys.

TMac is a great player, but he's not Kobe, and he'll never be compared to MJ, because he's not a clutch type of guy, and he can't always get open for a good shot during pressure situations. Just because he's gotten a couple of buzzer beaters doesn't make him a playmaker.

Laker's 3 Ring playmakers? Jeff fisher, Kobe Bryant, Shaq, to name a few. fisher is an underated point guard who makes very few turn overs and good decisions; Kobe can score at will or find an open man; Shaq has great vision for a big man, his indirect assists are what make the Lakers go, and himself the MDP.

<div class="quote_poster">Quoting Rock4life:</div><div class="quote_post">You couldn't have, because I did too, and the Rockets were a pretty good passing team. I can remember a number of Tmac and Yao passes to open players on the perimeter and for dunks. Who were you watching?

Uuuuuuum.............And your point was??

I don't know how many Rockets games you watch, but we have a pretty good guy by the name of Tracy Mcgrady that is one of the top 3 "PLAYMAKERS" in the league. If you haven't noticed him, he plays SF, and his jersey number is 1. It seems like your seriously underestimating our BEST players BEST quality, which is making plays. I think you lost me when you tried helplessly to compare your days of playin soccer to basketball. Since your standards of a passer are so high, who was the Lakers "Great passer" when they won 3 championships?</div>

 

<div class="quote_poster">Quoting grillbar:</div><div class="quote_post">
TMac is a great player, but he's not Kobe, and he'll never be compared to MJ, because he's not a clutch type of guy, and he can't always get open for a good shot during pressure situations. Just because he's gotten a couple of buzzer beaters doesn't make him a playmaker.
</div>

what?? TMac is one of the best in the NBA in finding his own shot and can take anyone one on one with his penetration, to his 3's, to his dunks and crossovers. He has got more than a share of buzzer beaters. He has proven that it doesn't matter if he's double or triple teamed either. I don't know if you know this or not.. Kobe is no MJ either. There will not be another MJ... TMac has never had the surrounding cast that Kobe has had... see what happens when you remove the complimentary players from around Kobe? It's TMacs time now because the Kobe show is over for the next few years.

 

Whoa, whoa, whoa, GRILLBAR, you get me on your side by agreeing with my assessment of Sura then just completely let me down. Tracy McGrady not a clutch player? Tracy is the definition of clutch. Tracy is more clutch than clutch is clutch. Did you see San Antonio game this year? If not, go to tmac.com and watch his 13 in 35 then come tell me he ain't clutch. You are right about one thing though, he's no Kobe, he's not egotistical, self-centered, and doesn't care about himself looking good over the teams' performance. I would rather have Tracy on my team over Kobe even before his little incident in Colorado.

And by the way it's Derek Fisher not Jeff. Jeff coaches the Tennessee Titans

 

<div class="quote_poster">Quoting grillbar:</div><div class="quote_post">IT'S SOOOO OBVIOUS THAT SURA CAN'T PASS FOR S**T. He rarely, if ever, sees Yao, or pass to him willingly. He is a horrific point guard.
Don't get me wrong, I think they are great players, but Yao Ming is not Shaq, and TMac is definitely not Kobe, despite his assanine personality. Kobe may be an asshole, but he's a winner/asshole, he's is an incredible playmaker who makes very few mistakes and can score everywhich way and against everybody. He was pretty close to MJ in that regard..</div>

Ok.........let's take our time here. Last year, if we can remember, when Sura came back from injury, the team's record became better instantly. It was no suprise that Sura came in and brought a new attitude. I don't think your being logical. So in your words, because Tmac isn't better than Kobe, and Yao isn't Shaq, all we need is a passing playmaker to make us better than the 03 Lakers (who no longer exist). Uuum, yeah.

<div class="quote_poster">Quoting grillbar:</div><div class="quote_post">
A number of dunks, when you're 7ft5,you're bound to get open dunks. It don't mean didaly. If you haven't gotten my point you should reread my post, did I say the Rockets are gonna stink this season? No, I simply meant they're not a championship caliber team, they need a playmaker to become one. The premises here are that the Rockets are aiming for the title every season with this group of guys. .</div>

I become more and more confused the more you speak. Explain to me why you assume just because Yao is 7'5, he's supposed to get "wide open" dunks. That doesn't add up, and if you don't think Tmac is a playmaker, then you've been watching too many soccer games.

<div class="quote_poster">Quoting grillbar:</div><div class="quote_post">
TMac is a great player, but he's not Kobe, and he'll never be compared to MJ, because he's not a clutch type of guy, and he can't always get open for a good shot during pressure situations. Just because he's gotten a couple of buzzer beaters doesn't make him a playmaker. .</div>
What? You have to be drunk. Tmac was an OUTSTANDING clutch player before he even put on a Rockets jersey. I can name atleast 5 games last year where he came through in the clutch, and I ain't even mentioning the playoffs. Since you think Tmac isn't a playmaker, I challenge you. Name 5 playmakers in the NBA better than Tmac . Also, name 5 players more clutch than Tmac. This is going to be interesting.................

<div class="quote_poster">Quoting grillbar:</div><div class="quote_post">Laker's 3 Ring playmakers? Jeff fisher, Kobe Bryant, Shaq, to name a few. fisher is an underated point guard who makes very few turn overs and good decisions; Kobe can score at will or find an open man; Shaq has great vision for a big man, his indirect assists are what make the Lakers go, and himself the MDP.</div>
Who the hell is Jeff Fisher? Does he play soccer? I think you might mean Derek Fisher, and I was hoping you didn't. Derek Fisher is a spot up shooter, he didn't even handle the ball that much. So according to you, Derek Fisher is your definition of a "playmaker", and Tracy Mcgrady is not. I can't wait to hear this one..............Do ya'll hear this guy?