<div class="quote_poster">Quote:</div><div class="quote_post">How about Reggie Evans? Last year he averaged 9.3 rpg in just under 24 minutes per game bringing his rebounds per 48 minute rate to 18.8. With last year being only his third year in the league it is not unreasonable for him to improve by 2 r/48m considering that he improved more than that last year.</div> I know about Reggie, but 18.8 is still 1.2 RPG away from 20 RPG, and he's already playing on one of the faster paced teams in the league. Also I'm not sure about his ability to play that many minutes an maintain production, it's not easy. <div class="quote_poster">Quote:</div><div class="quote_post">You keep bringing up names and scenarios, but Shaq is unlike any other player to ever compete in the NBA. You mention Wilt's era and more shot attempts, but there were also better big men in Wilt's era. Him and Russell just took pride in cleaning the glass, something Shaq has never set out to do. Shaq doesn't hustle after rebounds, even though he's more than capable of it. He's a poor defensive rebounder for a man with his size and skill. We shouldn't even be mentioning Shaq in the same sentence as KG, Ben Wallace, or Rodman. It should be Shaq and then everyone else, because Shaq should be a far superior rebounder given his size and skill. Right now he's 19th all time for rebounding average.</div> I guess I've just never had as much expectation as you have. Like you said, rebounding is as much about willingness as it is about physical ability, that's why their are a lot of very good rebounders who were not even 6'11. Shaq doesn't have that willingness, but not everyone does. Rasheed Wallace is 6'11 and athletic and has never broke the 9 RPG mark in his career. Again though, while I agree that Shaq has underachieved as a rebounder and shot blocker, he's still not a bad defender by any means.
I was too lazy to read this whole thread, but I think it's crazy that nobody chose Dirk. How can you guys say that Steve Nash is the worst superstar defender? Can you tell me any point guards in the league that don't get torched by Tony Parker? In GP's last playoff series in Seattle (when he was still the glove) Tony Parker had his way with him (and I believe that was his rookie year). There aren't really any pgs in the league that do much in the way of defense. Dirk has horrible footwork on the defensive end, so he always gets beaten off the dribble. Why do you think that Dallas has been obsessed with one dimensional shot-blocking centers over the past few years? They are brought in to compensate for Dirk getting beat all the time. The man can't guard the post. I realize that nobody can stop Tmac, but you would think that with a 4 inch advantage Dirk could have done a better job than he did in playoffs this year. Dirk is the worst superstar defender.
<div class="quote_poster">Quoting Jurassic:</div><div class="quote_post"> How can you guys say that Steve Nash is the worst superstar defender? Can you tell me any point guards in the league that don't get torched by Tony Parker? In GP's last playoff series in Seattle (when he was still the glove) Tony Parker had his way with him (and I believe that was his rookie year).</div> It's not because Tony Parker owned him. It's that every PG in the league has owned him. If you watch him, he is just piss poor on defense. He has no clue where to go and has bad timing (when to double team, when not to, when to switch etc.).
<div class="quote_poster">Quote:</div><div class="quote_post">I was too lazy to read this whole thread, but I think it's crazy that nobody chose Dirk.</div> Well considering you didn't read the whole thread, I guess that's why you din't realize some people picked Dirk. <div class="quote_poster">Quote:</div><div class="quote_post">How can you guys say that Steve Nash is the worst superstar defender? Can you tell me any point guards in the league that don't get torched by Tony Parker?</div> The picking of Nash has nothing to do with Tony Parker lol <div class="quote_poster">Quote:</div><div class="quote_post">There aren't really any pgs in the league that do much in the way of defense. </div> Hmmmmm.....Jason Kidd, Earl Watson, Chris Duhon, Kirk Hinrich, Royal Ivey, Baron Davis, Marcus Banks, Eric Snow, Billups [not a first teamer though, but his team is good], Jason Terry, Devin Harris, and more, don't know where you got that idea from. <div class="quote_poster">Quote:</div><div class="quote_post">The man can't guard the post. I realize that nobody can stop Tmac, but you would think that with a 4 inch advantage Dirk could have done a better job than he did in playoffs this year.</div> lol, that's a terrible example, their's no big men in the league that can guard effectively guard quick SG/SF's. Big's just don't have the lateral quickness, height has nothing to do with it. Perimeter players will cross up and blow by big men all day if they were trying to guard them.
<div class="quote_poster">Quoting shapecity:</div><div class="quote_post">You keep bringing up names and scenarios, but Shaq is unlike any other player to ever compete in the NBA. You mention Wilt's era and more shot attempts, but there were also better big men in Wilt's era. Him and Russell just took pride in cleaning the glass, something Shaq has never set out to do. </div> you're joking hopefully because wilt dominated because of the lack of size in the game. Russell was a great big man, but on an average night wilt was by far the biggest man on the floor, rebounds were also different back them, him and russell may have taken pride in getting rebounds but they had career averages of 22 rebounds a game, wilt got 25 a game one season, you will just never see that again
Sorry guys, looked at tmacs statistics and borrowed/watched a few games and i was TOTALLY wrong about his D! he definetly steps up when he has to. But guarding vince for tmac was a thing he did back in the backyard, he knows pretty much all his moves. SO you can expect him to step up, especially against his cousin!
<div class="quote_poster">Quoting babybulls:</div><div class="quote_post">you're joking hopefully because wilt dominated because of the lack of size in the game. Russell was a great big man, but on an average night wilt was by far the biggest man on the floor, rebounds were also different back them, him and russell may have taken pride in getting rebounds but they had career averages of 22 rebounds a game, wilt got 25 a game one season, you will just never see that again</div> Exactly my point, Shaq is by far the largest man on the court and there is obvious lack of size in the current NBA. Wilt Chamberlain also played when there was far less teams in the league, so the overall talent level was better. Of course it's difficult to compare players from era to era, but if Shaq was more willing to be a better defender, he would be averaging close to 20 RPG. Rebounding was not different back then, rebounding remains the same, you miss a shot it becomes a rebound. Kevin Willis was able to average 15.5 RPG in 1991-92 season, Dikembe Mutombo was able to average 14.1 in the 1999-00 season, Kevin Garnett 13.9 in 2003-04, and Ben Wallace 15.4 in 2002-03. og15 how can you say Shaq is a good defender when he's lazy about it? Being huge compensates for a lot of his defensive lapses, but he is a very poor defender otherwise. To quote you, "Shaq doesn't have that willingness, but not everyone does. " His unwillingness on defense is what makes him disappointing.
<div class="quote_poster">Quote:</div><div class="quote_post">Rebounding was not different back then, rebounding remains the same, you miss a shot it becomes a rebound. Kevin Willis was able to average 15.5 RPG in 1991-92 season, Dikembe Mutombo was able to average 14.1 in the 1999-00 season, Kevin Garnett 13.9 in 2003-04, and Ben Wallace 15.4 in 2002-03</div> Like I said, I agree about his effort, but him putting 60% effort is better than a lot of guys at 90-100%, so he's still not bad. Maybe it's because their's no real good centers in the league anymore, but even when you see him guarding good players, he does well. Him being overweight and injury prone because of the weight also comes into play. You were talking about him as a rookie, and his BPG and RPG numbers, but he averaged 4 fouls a game as a rookie in only 37.9 MPG. He wasn't a better defender, he was just more athletic and mobile then as he hadn't gained weight yet, but he was also young and eager to go after everything like most young players are. He coasts through the regular season most of the time, it's a pretty well known thing. He reminds me of Carter a little in that, except Carter just make things look effortless and coasts on defense through the season, then steps it up if the team actually makes the playoffs. The weight gain affected his quickness, stamina, and also his quick elevation ability, which didn't help his rebounding or shot blocking at all. Wilt was a guy that could play 52 MPG in a season and not be tired, he was a freak athlete, he was the Michael Jordan of big men in that he had the combination of good ability in every athletic area. If you remember some of the championship years [of course you do], he averaged 30 points and 15 rebounds in 2 of them. Now he could do that during the regular season, but he doesn't try as hard, he's normally basically resting for the playoffs, and most of the years he's had some foot injury problem. You say he should dominate because of his size etc, but the fact that he hasn't kept in tip top shape has taken away from his stamina and durability. If he was always in good shape, his RS numbers would always look like what they were in the 99-00 regular season. 29.7 PPG | 13.6 RPG | 3.0 BPG, but look through the years, and the more games he mised, basically the lesser his production overall.
<div class="quote_poster">Quote:</div><div class="quote_post">The weight gain affected his quickness, stamina, and also his quick elevation ability, which didn't help his rebounding or shot blocking at all. Wilt was a guy that could play 52 MPG in a season and not be tired, he was a freak athlete, he was the Michael Jordan of big men in that he had the combination of good ability in every athletic area. </div> It didn't have any effect on him on the offensive end. Sure, Shaq was not as explosiveness, quick, or as well conditioned like he was his rookie season, but his experience and knowledge of the game was better. He knows how to position his body, use leverage, and use his weight to box out. He has a better feel for how a ball is going to carrum off the rim from a missed shot. He also has a better understanding of the players he's defending and their tendencies on offense. Yet Shaq became progressively worse since his rookie season, instead of improving on his defensive stats. I think it had more to do with coasting during the regular season and not giving effort. These are two reasons why I voted him as the worst. I think it's far worse when a player has the ability to dominate on defense, but chooses not to.
<div class="quote_poster">Quoting og15:</div><div class="quote_post">The picking of Nash has nothing to do with Tony Parker lol</div> Go back and read the thread. I didn't bother to quote the person but someone did mention that TP owning Nash was evidence of Nash being a bad defender. <div class="quote_poster">Quote:</div><div class="quote_post">Hmmmmm.....Jason Kidd, Earl Watson, Chris Duhon, Kirk Hinrich, Royal Ivey, Baron Davis, Marcus Banks, Eric Snow, Billups [not a first teamer though, but his team is good], Jason Terry, Devin Harris, and more, don't know where you got that idea from.</div> Okay....I said GREAT point guards. Not many of the people that you listed there are even above average. Even Kidd awknowledged that Nash is the best pg in the league. There's no point in listed point guards with good D, if none of them are better than Nash overall. Since when are Harris and Terry (or any Mavs guards) great defenders? Chris Duhon is not a great or even a legit NBA point guard yet. Half of the people that you mentioned keep the bench warm. Of course I know that Kidd is a great defender, but is falling off with age and injuries. The only thing that Nash was guilty of in the Spurs' series was getting burned on pick-and-rolls, and letting Parker get in the paint. <div class="quote_poster">Quote:</div><div class="quote_post">lol, that's a terrible example, their's no big men in the league that can guard effectively guard quick SG/SF's.</div> I was actually referring to the times when McGrady posted him up, and still torched him. Not the times that he beat him off the dribble.
<div class="quote_poster">Quoting Jurassic:</div><div class="quote_post">I was too lazy to read this whole thread, but I think it's crazy that nobody chose Dirk. How can you guys say that Steve Nash is the worst superstar defender? Can you tell me any point guards in the league that don't get torched by Tony Parker? In GP's last playoff series in Seattle (when he was still the glove) Tony Parker had his way with him (and I believe that was his rookie year).</div> Tony Parker is completely irrelevant. If this thread was posted during last season before the two were matched up in the playoffs the same answers would have been given. No one's argument is based on Tony parker beating Steve Nash.
Shaq's presence alone is good enough. Many players think twice before driving that lane with the Diesel there. Also, he makes people change a lot of their shots to avoid being blocked. Also, Dirk is not as bad a defender as some think. Sure, hes not fast enough for smaller players, and not strong enough for big players to guard them one-on-one, but as a team defender he is fairly decent. He is good at boxing out, and helping out on defence. He is decent at rebounding, and has worked really hard these past years to improve on defense. My pick for worst defensive player who is/was a superstar would be Peja (Yes, he WAS a superstar. The past year was just such a disappointment). He really doesn't even try that much on defense. He isn't nearly quick enough to guard most SF's, and can't even out muscle them. He doesn't put his hand up to try and bother the shooter, and most of the times he watches the other player hoist a shot up, while he just runs to the other side of the floor, hoping for a miss so they can run a fast break. This may be because of the system they play in, but I highly doubt that has much impact.
<div class="quote_poster">Quote:</div><div class="quote_post"> Go back and read the thread. I didn't bother to quote the person but someone did mention that TP owning Nash was evidence of Nash being a bad defender</div> How about you go and read the thread. I saw it, but I'm saying that's not why people are picking Nash as a bad defender, they're picking him, well, because he's a bad defender. That was an example by one person, not the basis of people picking Nash as a bad defender. <div class="quote_poster">Quote:</div><div class="quote_post">Okay....I said GREAT point guards. Not many of the people that you listed there are even above average. Even Kidd awknowledged that Nash is the best pg in the league. There's no point in listed point guards with good D, if none of them are better than Nash overall. Since when are Harris and Terry (or any Mavs guards) great defenders? Chris Duhon is not a great or even a legit NBA point guard yet. Half of the people that you mentioned keep the bench warm. Of course I know that Kidd is a great defender, but is falling off with age and injuries. The only thing that Nash was guilty of in the Spurs' series was getting burned on pick-and-rolls, and letting Parker get in the paint.</div> No, you said "There aren't really any pgs in the league that do much in the way of defense." I don't see great PG's, or great defenders there anywhere, you didn't even use the word great in that whole post, it's on this same page, you should have least checked before trying to make it seem like I didn't read your post fully. Harris is a good defender, and Terry is above average defensively, and actually pretty good. Like I said, you didn't say anything about "great" defenders in your first post, maybe you meant to and forgot You then say their's no point in listing the good defenders at PG? You're the one that said their's aren't really any PG's that do much defensively, what are you talking about? I don't even understand this... I mentioned 11 guys, 3 of them are bench warmers: Ivey, Harris, and Marcus Banks, I don't think 3/11 is half. Nash didn't only play against the Spurs last season, their were 82 games before the playoffs, and I remember Nash vs Bibby in the 03-04 playoffs, Bibby averaged something like 24 PPG on 48% FG+ shooting, and 50%+ 3PT shooting. Nash is a bad defender, he's been a bad defender, and you watch him, and it's fairly obvious he's a bad defender, their's not much else to say about it. In terms of being overall better than Nash, Kidd is better, and Baron when healthy is better overall as a player. Iverson is also a fairly good defender, and better overall as a player. Steve Francis is not a PG.... <div class="quote_poster">Quote:</div><div class="quote_post">I was actually referring to the times when McGrady posted him up, and still torched him. Not the times that he beat him off the dribble.</div> Please, how many times did McGrady post Dirk up in that series. The Rockets don't even run many post iso's for McGrady against shorter players, and they'd do that against Dirk why?
You are too silly to even quote anymore. Show me where I said that Nash is not a bad defender. Nobody is saying that Nash is not a bad defender, so why bother posting all this crap to prove that he is a bad defender? Get back on topic. If you really want to argue that badly, please show me how Nash is a worse defender than Dirk. That would make a lot more sense, considering that is why I'm trying to argue. I agree he is a bad defender, but not the worst superstar defender. To say that Baron Davis is a better player than Steve Nash is ludicrous. You could make that argument about Iverson, but both he and Davis shoot horribly. When has Harris ever proven to be a good defender? Did you not notice that they never play him down the stretch? Ever wonder why? You are really great at twisting my words, making arguments on technicalities, and posting meaningless stats. I could care less about how Bibby did against Nash in a playoff series.
<div class="quote_poster">Quote:</div><div class="quote_post">You are really great at twisting my words</div> yea, okay... If you look at your first post in the thread, you were saying you were surprised that people didn't pick Dirk, and also that everyone get's torched by Parker anyways, in defense of Nash. To anyone normal, it would look like you were saying Nash isn't really a bad defender because Parker beats on everyone anyways. Maybe just be a little clearer next time <div class="quote_poster">Quote:</div><div class="quote_post">Get back on topic. If you really want to argue that badly, please show me how Nash is a worse defender than Dirk. That would make a lot more sense, considering that is why I'm trying to argue. </div> I don't like Dirk enough to really bother arguing it anyways, but Dirk has improved as a help defender, and in being in the right place defensively. His man to man defense is still a work in progress, bad but no attrocious, but Nash on the other hand isn't much in the off ball sense, and he's a bad man to man defender also. It's not like he gambles and get's steals, or is great at doubling down in the post, or anything, he just sucks on defense in general.
<div class="quote_poster">Quoting og15:</div><div class="quote_post">I don't like Dirk enough to really bother arguing it anyways, but Dirk has improved as a help defender, and in being in the right place defensively. </div> Wow...... Are you aware that the Mavs run a zone defense almost all the time? It's not hard to be in the "right place defensively" when all you are doing is guarding a certain area and shifting when the ball does. Even a casual NBA fan should know this . For that matter Shawn Bradley is often where he should be on defense, but he is a horrible defender. Not only does he not stop the guy from scoring, but he gets dunked on, even though he is "in the right place defensively" . You are right, Dirk is a great help defender. That is what a zone defense does, allows people to help out when someone gets beat. I guess we should give Dirk a lot of credit for being smart enough to rotate when someone gets past Terry. Rather than just giving them a clear lane to the hoop, Dirk uses common sense and steps over and tries to stop them. This is getting ridiculous. I'm probably done with this thread.
I would guess that Nash would be, not because he doesn't try though. and Tony Parker does blow everyone, the only player that I can think of that may have a quicker drive is AI. Dirk is a decent team defender, and probably slightly below average man to man defender against PFs. Tmac doesn't expend much energy on defense, he has always been passive on d. Same with Vince Carter, Jalen Rose, and Amare.
<div class="quote_poster">Quoting Jurassic:</div><div class="quote_post">Wow...... Are you aware that the Mavs run a zone defense almost all the time? It's not hard to be in the "right place defensively" when all you are doing is guarding a certain area and shifting when the ball does. Even a casual NBA fan should know this . For that matter Shawn Bradley is often where he should be on defense, but he is a horrible defender. Not only does he not stop the guy from scoring, but he gets dunked on, even though he is "in the right place defensively" . You are right, Dirk is a great help defender. That is what a zone defense does, allows people to help out when someone gets beat. I guess we should give Dirk a lot of credit for being smart enough to rotate when someone gets past Terry. Rather than just giving them a clear lane to the hoop, Dirk uses common sense and steps over and tries to stop them. This is getting ridiculous. I'm probably done with this thread.</div> The Mavs have been running a zone defense since it was allowed in the league, and Dirk sucked all those years then, maybe he was just stupid before and got smart? [Note: I am not being sarcastic] I said he improved his defense, and like I also said, his man to man defense is a work in progress, but not attrocious, though still below average. Nash's man to man defense can be considered attrocious, and it's not like he has any help defense to speak of while Dirk can at least have some impact defensively. <div class="quote_poster">Quote:</div><div class="quote_post">Jalen Rose</div> He just can't defend anymore because he's so slow footed...
Marbury doesn't try to play defense, so its like, he's not really a good one on one guy, but he's a good help defender.
<div class="quote_poster">Quoting j0se:</div><div class="quote_post">Marbury doesn't try to play defense, so its like, he's not really a good one on one guy, but he's a good help defender.</div> he has potential to be a decent defender, because of his athleticism and strength. It will be interesting how he does with Larry Brown.
