And Dwayne Wade was traded to LA last season, do you guys think the Lakers would have been a better team last season? I think there wouldn't be chemistry problems between the players at least... Shaq and Wade gets along quite well. And I think Shaq makes a bigger impact than Kobe in the game. Wade may not be as good as kobe, but he's good enough to fill the void if Kobe was to be replaced. I think the Lakers would have had Miami's record last season if this transition took place.
Interesting scenario Devin, in hindsight I would consider doing this trade. If I knew Shaq was going to get in shape, take a paycut, and continue to stay in shape, then I make this trade. The Lakers would also have to take Eddie Jones or Brian Grant to make the deal work under the salary cap. Let's assume it's Eddie Jones which would give the Lakers the following roster. *The Lakers would still have Gary Payton, (since the Atkins, Jones, & Mihm trade wouldn't happen). <u>Laker's Roster</u> PG - Payton / Bobbitt / Brown SG - Wade / Vujacic SF - E. Jones / Walton / George PF - Medvedenko / Cook C - Shaq / Divac <u>Heat's Roster</u> PG - D. Jones / Dooling SG - Bryant / Wright SF - C. Butler / R. Butler PF - Odom / Haslem / Laettner C - Mourning / Grant / Doleac After looking at the roster breakdown, which would you rather have?
very hard decision but id pick lakers but last season the eastern confernce was so much easier im picking the lakers b/c im still assuming the kobe bryant injury still happened.
<div class="quote_poster">Quoting shapecity:</div><div class="quote_post">Interesting scenario Devin, in hindsight I would consider doing this trade. If I knew Shaq was going to get in shape, take a paycut, and continue to stay in shape, then I make this trade. The Lakers would also have to take Eddie Jones or Brian Grant to make the deal work under the salary cap. Let's assume it's Eddie Jones which would give the Lakers the following roster. *The Lakers would still have Gary Payton, (since the Atkins, Jones, & Mihm trade wouldn't happen). <u>Laker's Roster</u> PG - Payton / Bobbitt / Brown SG - Wade / Vujacic SF - E. Jones / Walton / George PF - Medvedenko / Cook C - Shaq / Divac <u>Heat's Roster</u> PG - D. Jones / Dooling SG - Bryant / Wright SF - C. Butler / R. Butler PF - Odom / Haslem / Laettner C - Mourning / Grant / Doleac After looking at the roster breakdown, which would you rather have?</div> Naturally, I'd have picked the Lakers' roster. Wade and O'Neal works great together, Wade would have filled the void for the trade with Kobe. Honestly, there are alot of extremely talented guards out there who are more or less on par with Kobe (Wade, Allen, Iverson, Nash, T-mac, Carter and much more) , but how many centers are there that's as dominanting as Shaq? The Lakers could have traded Bryant for another great players that plays Kobe's position. Very talented guards are easily replaceable in the NBA, but how often do you find another center, and a true center at that, who is as dominant as Shaq? Right now, zero. Centers just make a greater impact on the court and attract talented players into their teams.. Just look at who Miami bought over during the off season... Walker, Williams and Posey, and Shaq was willing to take a cut in his salaries to bring em over. Same with the Rockets, Yao the center attracted T-mac and now they have Swift and anderson. Not trying to downplay Kobe's talent, but if the Lakers expected him to carry a whole team last season, that's not gonna happen. Even Jordan had help from other great players I.E. Pippen. I don't know if it's true or not but did Butler and Atkins resent Bryant during the whole season? I read in the newspaper that they didn't get along with him.
lol first of all if this trade happened Zo would not be in a heat uniform Maybe a lakers uniform? or remain with the raptors? I would go with Lakers because i think shaq and wade are the best duos (even better than shaq and kobe) while the heat would probably end up having chemistry problems
<div class="quote_poster">Quoting PlaTsanity:</div><div class="quote_post"> while the heat would probably end up having chemistry problems</div> Yeah, I can somewhat envision that happening. Sooner or later, I bet... Kobe fanatics are going to flame my thread though. Maybe true lakers fans would regret last year's trade and wish this trade occured instead? Of course to be fair, i don't think anyone would have predicted Wade to improve so dramatically last year and became a superstar. Now he's in the cover of NBA Live 2006.
<div class="quote_poster">Quoting devin:</div><div class="quote_post">Yeah, I can somewhat envision that happening. Sooner or later, I bet... Kobe fanatics are going to flame my thread though. Maybe true lakers fans would regret last year's trade and wish this trade occured instead? Of course to be fair, i don't think anyone would have predicted Wade to improve so dramatically last year and became a superstar. Now he's in the cover of NBA Live 2006. </div> I thought the Lakers could have received more in the trade, but right now it's still to early to judge who got the better end of the deal. If Miami wins a title with Shaq then they got the better end of the deal. Depending on who the Lakers get in 2007 and how they do after 2007 is going to be the time to breakdown this trade. I don't think any Laker fan in here would choose Kobe ahead of the team. If trading Kobe improve the Lakers, every Laker fan at JBB would except it. PlaTsanity it's irrelevant whether or not Zo would sign or not. We could play the 'if' game to death, but the fact remains Zo was part of the Heat roster, so you would have to include him. I think both teams would actually improve if you made this swap. The Lakers would have a better starting 5, but weaker depth, while the Heat would have great depth off the bench and still a very young roster.
<div class="quote_poster">Quoting shapecity:</div><div class="quote_post">Interesting scenario Devin, in hindsight I would consider doing this trade. If I knew Shaq was going to get in shape, take a paycut, and continue to stay in shape, then I make this trade. The Lakers would also have to take Eddie Jones or Brian Grant to make the deal work under the salary cap. Let's assume it's Eddie Jones which would give the Lakers the following roster. *The Lakers would still have Gary Payton, (since the Atkins, Jones, & Mihm trade wouldn't happen). <u>Laker's Roster</u> PG - Payton / Bobbitt / Brown SG - Wade / Vujacic SF - E. Jones / Walton / George PF - Medvedenko / Cook C - Shaq / Divac <u>Heat's Roster</u> PG - D. Jones / Dooling SG - Bryant / Wright SF - C. Butler / R. Butler PF - Odom / Haslem / Laettner C - Mourning / Grant / Doleac After looking at the roster breakdown, which would you rather have?</div> Last time I checked Vlade and Shaq weren't very good friends.
<div class="quote_poster">Quote:</div><div class="quote_post">more or less on par with Kobe (Wade, Allen, Iverson, Nash, T-mac, Carter and much more) , but how many centers are there that's as dominanting as Shaq? The Lakers could have traded Bryant for another great players that plays Kobe's position. Very talented guards are easily replaceable in the NBA</div> I agree with you that great gaurds come on around a lot more often than do Centers, but I'd hardly say that your list of players there are "more or less on par with Kobe". There are three players in the L that rival Kobe Bryant at his position, or at the SF position. Those players are Tracy McGrady, LeBron James and Dwayne Wade. The other gaurds u mentioned are great players, but they don't fill the stat box in the way that these players can. if your scenario had played out, the Lakers would have been good, but not as good as the Miami heat were last season. The heat played in the Eastern Conference (still weaker, but getting better) and in the worst devision in the League. They padded their win column with wins against teams like Charlotte, Atlanta, and New Orleans. The lakers however dealt with teams like The Sonics, Denver, Kings, Rockets etc. If your scenario had played out I'd say the Lakers would have won about 50 games last year.
People still fail to realize that, even though Miami had a better team than the Lakers last year, they still didn't make to the finals... And I don't care about how players were hurt in that last ECF series. Truth is, Miami was up with 2 minutes to go, and they blew it!!!!! IMO, I think we should've never got rid of Horry and the core of the players that helped LA win those 3 championships... Getting Malone and Payton looked good, but did they really help us???? Especially when towards the end, Payton started complaining about playing time and handling the ball... Also the fact that, Malone never played the way He's been known for playing... I know his age had alot to do with it, and granted, he did contribute positive numbers, but in my mind, his free throws went down, his shooting percentage went down; same with Payton (PPG). And Shaq was out rebounded by the Wallaces'. So I don't know about the question; if Kobe was traded instead of Shaq, I think lakers probably would made further in the playoffs, but they still probably would've been bumped out, especially if they met up with the Spurs... You can look at it this way, for Shaq, when he was with LA, he made it to the Finals; but lost of course. But when got traded to Miami, he only made it to the ECF (with a better team)... So in my eyes he down graded....
<div class="quote_poster">Quote:</div><div class="quote_post">People still fail to realize that, even though Miami had a better team than the Lakers last year, they still didn't make to the finals... And I don't care about how players were hurt in that last ECF series. Truth is, Miami was up with 2 minutes to go, and they blew it!!!!! </div> What's the comparison, the Lakers didn't even make the playoffs, lol. <div class="quote_poster">Quote:</div><div class="quote_post"> You can look at it this way, for Shaq, when he was with LA, he made it to the Finals; but lost of course. But when got traded to Miami, he only made it to the ECF (with a better team)... So in my eyes he down graded....</div> LA's team last year was not the same team Shaq took to the finals, and Miami was definately not "better" than the Lakers teams that went far. When they played made it to the finals in 03-04, it wasn't: PG - Atkins SG - Kobe SF - Butler PF - Odom C - Shaq If Kobe was traded, it would be stupid, but the Lakers would still be the better team, and the Heat could be an 8th seed in the East, possibly if they stayed healthy.
A few clarifications. Miami didn't have chemistry problems because Shaq changed when he got to Miami. There was a shift of continental proportions in his worldview. He referred to the Heat as (shock!) Wade's team, while all the while in LA he was jawing with Kobe about the Lakers being his (Shaq's) team and that anybody having a problem with that (Kobe) ought to pack up and go elsewhere. I'll bet if Wade was traded to LA and tried to be the stud and lead the team as he does now with the Heat, we would hear Shaq putting him down and back in his place faster than you can say "Flash." Why couldn't have Shaq in LA had the class and grace that David Robinson had to accomodate the rise of Kobe? It also is not true that Shaq got the FA haul for Miami this summer because he was the main attraction. Used to be so, he deserved the credit two summers back when he recruited Malone and Payton to take pay cuts to join him in LA. But now his only credit in this summer's Miami FA haul was because he went back on his word (he had made clear to Jerry Buss that he wouldn't accept being "devalued") and accepted a $10 million pay cut, enabling Pat Riley, admittedly a better GM than Mitch, to do that blockbuster trade. Neither Walker, Williams, nor Posey took less money for the chance to play with Shaq. It was the other way around. Sigh, if Shaq only were half as goodhearted and generous as he is now in Miami, we Laker fans would have been celebrating the continuation of the dynasty, not commiserating a lost season and praying for a resurrection.
<div class="quote_poster">Quoting og15:</div><div class="quote_post"> LA's team last year was not the same team Shaq took to the finals, and Miami was definately not "better" than the Lakers teams that went far. </div> I'm talking about last years Lakers team versus Last years Heat team... The Heat was a far better team then the Lakers.... Which Shaq had; Plas that team was better than Lakers team with Payton and Malone; Why? becuase they were younger, faster, better rebounding and scoring....
<div class="quote_poster">Quoting batman9970:</div><div class="quote_post">A few clarifications. Miami didn't have chemistry problems because Shaq changed when he got to Miami. There was a shift of continental proportions in his worldview. He referred to the Heat as (shock!) Wade's team, while all the while in LA he was jawing with Kobe about the Lakers being his (Shaq's) team and that anybody having a problem with that (Kobe) ought to pack up and go elsewhere. I'll bet if Wade was traded to LA and tried to be the stud and lead the team as he does now with the Heat, we would hear Shaq putting him down and back in his place faster than you can say "Flash." Why couldn't have Shaq in LA had the class and grace that David Robinson had to accomodate the rise of Kobe? It also is not true that Shaq got the FA haul for Miami this summer because he was the main attraction. Used to be so, he deserved the credit two summers back when he recruited Malone and Payton to take pay cuts to join him in LA. But now his only credit in this summer's Miami FA haul was because he went back on his word (he had made clear to Jerry Buss that he wouldn't accept being "devalued") and accepted a $10 million pay cut, enabling Pat Riley, admittedly a better GM than Mitch, to do that blockbuster trade. Neither Walker, Williams, nor Posey took less money for the chance to play with Shaq. It was the other way around. Sigh, if Shaq only were half as goodhearted and generous as he is now in Miami, we Laker fans would have been celebrating the continuation of the dynasty, not commiserating a lost season and praying for a resurrection.</div> TRUTH! Also last time I checked the Heat and GM Shaq have not been able to recruit a single free agent. All their new players were acquired via trade and the only players who re-signed were Haslem and Zo. Not to mention Shaq actually worked out last summer and came to camp in great shape and conditioning.
<div class="quote_poster">Quoting batman9970:</div><div class="quote_post">if Shaq only were half as goodhearted and generous as he is now in Miami, we Laker fans would have been celebrating the continuation of the dynasty, not commiserating a lost season and praying for a resurrection.</div> Maybe.... I remember when Malone and Payton got to LA everybody already wrote off that the Lakers were going all the way; Wasn't so... Same as last year; people were saying left and right that Miami was going all the way as well, but we all know what happened to that... Yah, yah, yah, they made it to the ECF and the Lakers didn't make it to the play-offs... WHO Cares!!!! Shaq still didn't get to the big show, which to him is the only thing that matters.... Lakers have already been there and done that; and what I mean by this is, they've done the play-off thing, made it to the 1st round, 2nd round, WCF, Finals, and walked aways with a ring. When it comes down to it, Lakers didn't have the team "period"; to be successfull... People say, well Kobe was just being himself thats why he can't lead a team. Well, if only they had stats that showed "assist attempts" just like shooting attempts, maybe people would realize how often he does pass the ball to someone but gets nothing out of it...
I hate it when people keep piling on Kobe about how he doesn't pass. Shaq was a major recipient of assists whenever Kobe drives and dishes. Last year, Kobe just didn't have the finishers to pass to, otherwise he would've been in the top 3 for assists per game. His finishers either dropped the ball (yeah you Chris) or didn't make the shot (Chucky, Jumaine, the two Brians). I remember one frustrating sequence last season where Kobe keeps feeding Chucky the ball (around 4 times) every time the Lakers rebounded offensively during one particularly long possession. Chucky missed all his attempts. Hopefully, this year's triangle would create better shots and shooting efficiency.
Didn't Payton and/or Malone take less money to play with Shaq though? <div class="quote_poster">Quote:</div><div class="quote_post">I hate it when people keep piling on Kobe about how he doesn't pass. Shaq was a major recipient of assists whenever Kobe drives and dishes. Last year, Kobe just didn't have the finishers to pass to, otherwise he would've been in the top 3 for assists per game. His finishers either dropped the ball (yeah you Chris) or didn't make the shot (Chucky, Jumaine, the two Brians). I remember one frustrating sequence last season where Kobe keeps feeding Chucky the ball (around 4 times) every time the Lakers rebounded offensively during one particularly long possession. Chucky missed all his attempts. Hopefully, this year's triangle would create better shots and shooting efficiency.</div> Kobe isn't that good a passer, he wouldn't have been in the Top 3 in APG, and he had pretty good finishers. I think all those guys you mentioned shot over 38% from 3PT range, basically an average of 39% because Atkins shot 38.7%. Not too many people will complain about passing to guys hitting 39% on three's, if you're complaining about that, then you want like Peja, Redd and Korver on your team or something. Their's no one in the league that shoots 100%.
Regarding the points raised by og15 in post #18: 1) In my post #13, I credited Shaq for getting Malone and Payton to take pay cuts to play with him in LA. Shaq did very well there. 2) How is Kobe not a good passer? His career assist per game average is 4.4 apg, last season he had 6.0 apg. How is that not good? If he had played in 4 more games and his apg held, he would've been tied at #14 in the category. The great Jordan had a career 5.3 apg average, is he also not a good passer? How many apg's does it take to be a good passer? 3) My saying Kobe would be Top 3 in assists is hyperbole. Retracted. Apologies. 4) Og15 is correct in refuting my fingerpointing. The figures don't lie. 38% 3point shooting is very good. But in a losing season, one tends to remember the misses more than the makes. My apologies to the players concerned. Although I don't think any of those players has read my post, so probably there's no harm done?
<div class="quote_poster">Quoting shapecity:</div><div class="quote_post"> PlaTsanity it's irrelevant whether or not Zo would sign or not. We could play the 'if' game to death, but the fact remains Zo was part of the Heat roster, so you would have to include him. </div> Sorry to correct u shape, but zo wasn't part of the heat roster, he was part of the jersey roster and was then traded to toronto who then bought out his contract so he could return to play in miami with a chance for a championship. i don't see any reason why he would have played in la.
