I brought up those names for comparitive reasons not that I am suggesting that those players are better than Kobe right now at all. The Media, Kobe fans always like to use the “ at this point of their careers” “ at this age” comparisons with Jordan. – J Rich: What suggests to you from Kobe’s 4th season that he is un reachable for Richardson? I’ll tell u this his stats are much more favorable than Kobe’s when they first began comparing him with Jordan at the same time. Same with Wade, who is now in his 3rd year. What statistically or ability wise lets you know that Kobe is just invariably a better player than Wade will ever be ? Nothing at all, in fact evidence would suggest otherwise. 3rd yr stats Kobe 98-99 LAL 50 50 37.9 fg%.465 .267 .839 1.1 4.2 rpg5.3 apg3.8 1.44 1.00 3.14 3.10 ppg19.9 Wade 05-06 MIA 75 75 38.6 fg%.495 .171 .783 1.4 4.3 5.7 6.7 1.95 .77 3.57 2.90 27.2 Oh yea, Kobe and Wade were at different ages at that point in there career’s right? Wade out did him at 22 as well. But what about Lebron then, that would be a more fair comparison as far as age and years played. First 3 years ages 18-21 Kobe 96-97 LAL 71 6 15.5 fg%.417 .375 .819 .7 1.2 1.9 rpg1.3 .69 .32 1.58 1.40 7.6 97-98 LAL 79 1 26.0 .428 .341 .794 1.0 2.1 rpg3.1 apg2.5 .94 .51 1.99 2.30 15.4 98-99 LAL 50 50 37.9 .465 .267 .839 1.1 4.2 rpg5.3 apg3.8 1.44 1.00 3.14 3.10 (ppg)19.9 Lebron 03-04 CLE 79 79 39.5 fg%.417 .290 .754 1.3 4.2 rpg5.5 apg5.9 1.65 .73 3.46 1.90 (ppg)20.9 04-05 CLE 80 80 42.4 .472 .351 .750 1.4 6.0 7.4 7.2 2.21 .65 3.28 1.80 27.2 05-06 CLE 79 79 42.5 .480 .335 .738 .9 6.1 rpg7.0 apg6.6 1.56 .84 3.29 2.30 (ppg)31.4 How is Kobe better than Lebron even now? Yes his game is prettier, his fadaway is nice- how does that equate to production? You saying Kobe would beat the hell out of Lebron--- so you saying that Lebron’s numbers are relevant to every other matchup in the league except the matchup with Kobe? Black Mamba, you said that they were very different players who had different roles—I don’t see how even a statement like that could rationalize Kobe’s numbers over Lebron’s at this stage of their careers. Its still the same game, they both have the same objective—to play as best as possible, and win. I don’t wanna go through every matchup comparing Kobe because basically all I need is one exception to contest that Kobe is definitely not the runaway best guard in the game by any standard criteria----- which is exactly what Michael Jordan made positive he always was. What has Kobe done individually that you can look back on and say—‘ yea that guy was the best player (or even best guard/forward) of his time ? Notadamnthing. Kobe is obviously not the best guard in the league as voted by the Associated Press 2 years consecutively, and also by NBA fans probably 6-8 out of his 10 yrs in the league. I truly think it is a discredit to Jordan, to Kobe and to the other players who’ve played in this league to continually compare a guy who has done absolutely nothing in this that would merit a true competition at the individual level with a Michael Jordan. Jerry West, Lebron James, Dwayne Wade, Dominique Wilkins, George Gervin, Allen Iverson , Rick Barry, ---- players who come to mind when talking about possibly comparing individual achievement with Jordan. Hey sure Kobe is good as hell—but if he’s so good that he’s the best, then why has he done nothing?, - winning his first scoring title in his 10th year for the guy who was supposed to be better than Jordan;-- playing against competition pale in comparison to those that Jordan played against; and yet he still cant do anything to set him self apart?? Mamba I know I didn’t compare the skills and abilities of Jordan and Kobe, ill do that after someone responds here.
AIRTIGHT, that last stat comparison is false. The reason for this is that Kobe wasn't the number one player on the team. Therefore, his stats weren't as high. He's only been the number one player since the 2004-2005 season. This should count as his first season as the leader on the team and should be compared with the rest. Of course, this cannot be done because Kobe was a vetran already in that season.
<div class="quote_poster">Quoting AIRTIGHT:</div><div class="quote_post">I brought up those names for comparitive reasons not that I am suggesting that those players are better than Kobe right now at all. The Media, Kobe fans always like to use the ? at this point of their careers? ? at this age? comparisons with Jordan. ? J Rich: What suggests to you from Kobe?s 4th season that he is un reachable for Richardson? I?ll tell u this his stats are much more favorable than Kobe?s when they first began comparing him with Jordan at the same time. Same with Wade, who is now in his 3rd year. What statistically or ability wise lets you know that Kobe is just invariably a better player than Wade will ever be ? Nothing at all, in fact evidence would suggest otherwise. 3rd yr stats Kobe 98-99 LAL 50 50 37.9 fg%.465 .267 .839 1.1 4.2 rpg5.3 apg3.8 1.44 1.00 3.14 3.10 ppg19.9 Wade 05-06 MIA 75 75 38.6 fg%.495 .171 .783 1.4 4.3 5.7 6.7 1.95 .77 3.57 2.90 27.2 Oh yea, Kobe and Wade were at different ages at that point in there career?s right? Wade out did him at 22 as well. But what about Lebron then, that would be a more fair comparison as far as age and years played. First 3 years ages 18-21 Kobe 96-97 LAL 71 6 15.5 fg%.417 .375 .819 .7 1.2 1.9 rpg1.3 .69 .32 1.58 1.40 7.6 97-98 LAL 79 1 26.0 .428 .341 .794 1.0 2.1 rpg3.1 apg2.5 .94 .51 1.99 2.30 15.4 98-99 LAL 50 50 37.9 .465 .267 .839 1.1 4.2 rpg5.3 apg3.8 1.44 1.00 3.14 3.10 (ppg)19.9 Lebron 03-04 CLE 79 79 39.5 fg%.417 .290 .754 1.3 4.2 rpg5.5 apg5.9 1.65 .73 3.46 1.90 (ppg)20.9 04-05 CLE 80 80 42.4 .472 .351 .750 1.4 6.0 7.4 7.2 2.21 .65 3.28 1.80 27.2 05-06 CLE 79 79 42.5 .480 .335 .738 .9 6.1 rpg7.0 apg6.6 1.56 .84 3.29 2.30 (ppg)31.4 How is Kobe better than Lebron even now? Yes his game is prettier, his fadaway is nice- how does that equate to production? You saying Kobe would beat the hell out of Lebron--- so you saying that Lebron?s numbers are relevant to every other matchup in the league except the matchup with Kobe? Black Mamba, you said that they were very different players who had different roles?I don?t see how even a statement like that could rationalize Kobe?s numbers over Lebron?s at this stage of their careers. Its still the same game, they both have the same objective?to play as best as possible, and win. I don?t wanna go through every matchup comparing Kobe because basically all I need is one exception to contest that Kobe is definitely not the runaway best guard in the game by any standard criteria----- which is exactly what Michael Jordan made positive he always was. What has Kobe done individually that you can look back on and say?? yea that guy was the best player (or even best guard/forward) of his time ? Notadamnthing. Kobe is obviously not the best guard in the league as voted by the Associated Press 2 years consecutively, and also by NBA fans probably 6-8 out of his 10 yrs in the league. I truly think it is a discredit to Jordan, to Kobe and to the other players who?ve played in this league to continually compare a guy who has done absolutely nothing in this that would merit a true competition at the individual level with a Michael Jordan. Jerry West, Lebron James, Dwayne Wade, Dominique Wilkins, George Gervin, Allen Iverson , Rick Barry, ---- players who come to mind when talking about possibly comparing individual achievement with Jordan. Hey sure Kobe is good as hell?but if he?s so good that he?s the best, then why has he done nothing?, - winning his first scoring title in his 10th year for the guy who was supposed to be better than Jordan;-- playing against competition pale in comparison to those that Jordan played against; and yet he still cant do anything to set him self apart?? Mamba I know I didn?t compare the skills and abilities of Jordan and Kobe, ill do that after someone responds here.</div> How can you even compare Kobe to Wade and J rich when they all first came out? Wade did 4 years at college and J rich did time there, too. Kobe came straight from HS. When Kobe was 24 (like Wade today) he averaged 28.5 PPG, 5 APG, and 5 RPG in 62 games. That's right on par with Wade. At that age, Richardson numbers only compare in rebounds. He isn't close to scoring. Comparing Kobe in his 3rd year with Wade in his 3rd year is absolutely nonsense. It's idiotic and shows your pure hate for Kobe. Kobe was 20/21 in his 3rd year. He was barely getting a starting spot. Kobe's not the best guard in the league, because he didn't win MVP? Are you kidding me? Who gives a flying F what the associated press says. Do they play the damn sport? I think not. Half of the press hates Kobe so that discredits anything they say. It's the coaches, GM's, and other players that count. Give Kobe Nash's surroundings: Diaw, Marion, Stoudamire, and the Lakers would be a dynasty. Nash is struggling to even get them through playoff series. Kobe proved who the real MVP was. The league knows who the real mvp was. To say Nash is better than Kobe is absolutely BS. Nash knows he isn't better than Bryant. They don't even compare. Kobe can pass, rebound, score, defend, and is clutch. Nash can pass, score big occasionally, and lead. Kobe Bryant is in his 2nd year of leading, and he's improved a bunch over one off season. Nash is a born leader, because he's a PG. LeBron is a born leader, he controls the ball. A lot of PG's are born leaders, they are the floor generals. Kobe's playing that position for the first time in his life, the floor general. And he's doing one hell of a job at it.
So the decison that Kobe made to join the Nba at 18 should be used to sheild him and to benefit him at the same time is that what yall are suggesting? ... He's the youngest player ever to get 10'000 pts --- yet dont take into account his first 4 seasons when comparing him to anybody else, cuz that wouldnt be fair - cmon yall get on some real talk --- and you still didnt compare the Lebron #'s --- what Lebron doesnt need the same excuses as Kobe as for the college omission or what? --oh cuz he came in as the best player on his team huh... Nobody stopped Kobe from being the best player on his team before or after shaq-- and even still, he had plenty opportunity to put up numbers in his first 4 seasons.- - are you saying that if Kobe right now were to go back in time to play his first few seasons again- he would still sit the bench and be suppressed to a 7.6-19ppg average? The opportunity was always there for him- And you say Kobe was 20/21 in his 3rd year and it would be idiotic to compare him to Wade at 24-- Lebron' is 21 right now! .??? And yes Nash is a better player than Kobe; the objective is to elevate yourself and team to win games- regardless of how you do it.
<div class="quote_poster">Quoting AIRTIGHT:</div><div class="quote_post"> And yes Nash is a better player than Kobe; the objective is to elevate yourself and team to win games- regardless of how you do it.</div> Do you think James Jones is a better player than Kobe? If so, . If not, please explain why.
<div class="quote_poster">Quoting AIRTIGHT:</div><div class="quote_post">So the decison that Kobe made to join the Nba at 18 should be used to sheild him and to benefit him at the same time is that what yall are suggesting? ... He's the youngest player ever to get 10'000 pts --- yet dont take into account his first 4 seasons when comparing him to anybody else, cuz that wouldnt be fair - cmon yall get on some real talk --- and you still didnt compare the Lebron #'s --- what Lebron doesnt need the same excuses as Kobe as for the college omission or what? --oh cuz he came in as the best player on his team huh... Nobody stopped Kobe from being the best player on his team before or after shaq-- and even still, he had plenty opportunity to put up numbers in his first 4 seasons.- - are you saying that if Kobe right now were to go back in time to play his first few seasons again- he would still sit the bench and be suppressed to a 7.6-19ppg average? The opportunity was always there for him- And you say Kobe was 20/21 in his 3rd year and it would be idiotic to compare him to Wade at 24-- Lebron' is 21 right now! .??? And yes Nash is a better player than Kobe; the objective is to elevate yourself and team to win games- regardless of how you do it.</div> Put the crack pipe down. Nobody expected Kobe to come in right away and make a major impact. He didn't have the body LeBron did. LeBron has the body of a 28 year old stud. It was easy for him to make an impact right away. Kobe was also behind Eddie Jones, who was an all-star caliber player at the time. You're one of the most ignorant fans I've debated with, you're points of view are cracked out beyond belief. With the crap your smokin', you could be a major hit with crack heads.
<div class="quote_poster">Quote:</div><div class="quote_post">So the decison that Kobe made to join the Nba at 18 should be used to sheild him and to benefit him at the same time is that what yall are suggesting? ... He's the youngest player ever to get 10'000 pts --- yet dont take into account his first 4 seasons when comparing him to anybody else, cuz that wouldnt be fair - cmon yall get on some real talk </div> The difference is simple. To make a fair comparision they would have to play a fairly equal amount of minutes and get around the same amount of starts. The first two seasons Kobe had a total of 7 starts and averaged around 15 minutes. Jones and NVE were stars on the Lakers team. Kobe would not just move into the starting rotation. Lebron had to compete with Ricky Davis for the 2 and Darius Miles for the 3. When have they ever been all stars? Never? Lebron walked into the starting role. Lebron is as big as BEN WALLACE!! The guy is a monster. Kobe came in as a kid. Lebron came in the league as a MAN!!! Big difference. <div class="quote_poster">Quote:</div><div class="quote_post">Nobody stopped Kobe from being the best player on his team before or after shaq-- </div> Before Shaq you say? Kobe and Shaq came to the Laker team just about the same time. If Lebron James played along Shaq during Shaq's prime, Lebron would already have titles, bu Lebrons stats would not be close to what they are today. SHAQ would be the MVP of all the Finals and would be the superstar on the Laker team. I dont know if he would be as hyped up living in the Diesels shadow either. SHAQ is the most dominant center to ever play the game. The offense always would go through him. Kobe had to accept that, and they won 3 titles this way. Shaq stopped Kobe from being the best on his team. Kobe would never be the #1 option on offense with a PRIME Shaq on his team. Its that simple. After Shaq? Kobe wasn't stopped from being the best player on his team. He is!!!!!!! <div class="quote_poster">Quote:</div><div class="quote_post">are you saying that if Kobe right now were to go back in time to play his first few seasons again- he would still sit the bench and be suppressed to a 7.6-19ppg average? </div> Back in time, and as good as he is now? Of course not. Kobe would be bigger, his basketball IQ better, and his skillset would be solid. He would start. What kind of question is this? <div class="quote_poster">Quote:</div><div class="quote_post">The opportunity was always there for him</div> No it wasnt. When you play alongside the most dominant center in the game, when will you get a chance to really shine? Eddie Jones was a premire Guard in the NBA and experienced. He would always get the nod over a rookie until proven otherwise. REMEMBER: Lebron was drafted to be a starter. Kobe was drafted by Charlotte and traded to a "GOOD" laker basketball team. Lebron was drafted to start with a lousy Cavs team. Lebron had much more opportuinity. <div class="quote_poster">Quote:</div><div class="quote_post"> And yes Nash is a better player than Kobe; the objective is to elevate yourself and team to win games- regardless of how you do it.</div> Are you saying Kobe didnt do this? Kobe brought a team from missing the playoffs to almost the 6th seed in a conference dominated by big men. If the Lakers were playing in the East they would have been a 4th or 5th seed just like the cavs. Kobe carried the Laker team on his back. If there was no Kobe, there would be no Laker playoffs this season. Its that simple. Not only did Kobe lead his team into the playoffs, he pushed the 2nd seed team to the brink of elimination. Thats talent my friend. Dont tell me Kobe did not elevate himself and his taem to win games. He did exactly that this season.
<div class="quote_poster">Quoting TheBlackMamba:</div><div class="quote_post">Put the crack pipe down. Nobody expected Kobe to come in right away and make a major impact. He didn't have the body LeBron did. LeBron has the body of a 28 year old stud. It was easy for him to make an impact right away. Kobe was also behind Eddie Jones, who was an all-star caliber player at the time. You're one of the most ignorant fans I've debated with, you're points of view are cracked out beyond belief. With the crap your smokin', you could be a major hit with crack heads.</div> , that's funny. He probably working at the circus too. AIRTIGHT, I don't know what kind of jobs you working but it seems like you're one of those who dress up as a clown. When Kobe came into the league, he is a veryyyy talent player but because of his youth and Eddie Jones was the star SG for the lakers, there is noway in hell Kobe can start. The next 2 years, coach Del Harris got fired and Eddie Jones and Nick Van Exel was trade because West wanted Kobe to be a starter and that was his breakout season. Also Nash was a nobody until he came to Phoenix. So don't even put Nash and Kobe in the same sentence . when was the thread turns into Lebron vs Kobe vs Nash anyway? I thought it was MJ vs Kobe haha
<div class="quote_poster">Quote:</div><div class="quote_post">Are you saying Kobe didnt do this? Kobe brought a team from missing the playoffs to almost the 6th seed in a conference dominated by big men. If the Lakers were playing in the East they would have been a 4th or 5th seed just like the cavs. Kobe carried the Laker team on his back. If there was no Kobe, there would be no Laker playoffs this season. Its that simple.</div> Sure, I agree. I never said he wasnt good-- I said he wasn't as good as Nash, and he wasn't; as Nash did all that and more-- which is why they're still playing Black Mamba <div class="quote_poster">Quote:</div><div class="quote_post">Give Kobe Nash's surroundings: Diaw, Marion, Stoudamire, and the Lakers would be a dynasty. Nash is struggling to even get them through playoff series. Kobe proved who the real MVP was.</div> Kobe wouldnt do shi.. with that team and yall know. Stoudemire aint playing-- Odom is slightly less a player than Marion- some may say he's got even more potential, and noone had heard of Diaw until Nash helped fashion him into the prospective MIP. - Remeber, to be MVP-- You gotta make people better- something Kobe is showing us he'll probably never understand. ---and what now?....proved who the real MVP was?? How'd he do that? Im thinking the idea was to win the series and continue playing- was there some other objective to be had only yall and Kobe knew about? And with the comparisons.. damn yall aint got nothin but excuses for the man huh? Every thing that's not in his favor I gotta read: "well uh, its cuz he wasn't ready for that", "well he didnt weigh enough to do that" , "well they had Eddie Jones and Kobe couldn't adjust ...." yall got a new one for every fashion season ; yet you dont hear these kind of excuses needed for any other player in this conversation except Kobe. Yall seriously telling me that if Michael Jordan had been on that team as a rookie- that he wouldnt start over Eddie Jones and Nick Van exel ? I know a guy named Wade-- yea wasnt he in a similar position his rookie year? - he seemed to pull thru without all these tears shed.- hell even snuck in the starting lineup a few games (can you imagine?-even with the incomparable Eddie Jones)
<div class="quote_poster">Quoting AIRTIGHT:</div><div class="quote_post">Sure, I agree. I never said he wasnt good-- I said he wasn't as good as Nash, and he wasn't; as Nash did all that and more-- which is why they're still playing Black Mamba Kobe wouldnt do shi.. with that team and yall know. Stoudemire aint playing-- Odom is slightly less a player than Marion- some may say he's got even more potential, and noone had heard of Diaw until Nash help fashion him into the prospective MIP. - Remeber, to be MVP-- You gotta make people better- something Kobe is showing us he'll probably never understand. ---and what now?....proved who the real MVP was?? How'd he do that? Im thinking the idea was to win the series and continue playing- was there some other objective to be had only yall and Kobe knew about? And with the comparisons.. damn yall aint got nothin but excuses for the man huh? Every thing that's not in his favor I gotta read: "well uh, its cuz he wasn't ready for that", "well he didnt weigh enough to do that" , "well they had Eddie Jones and Kobe couldn't adjust ...." yall got a new one for every fashion season ; yet you dont hear these kind of excuses needed for any other player in this conversation except Kobe. Yall seriously telling me that if Michael Jordan had been on that team as a rookie- that he wouldnt start over Eddie Jones and Nick Van exel ? I know a guy named Wade-- yea wasnt he in a similar position his rookie year? - he seemed to pull thru without all these tears shed.- hell even snuck in the starting lineup a few games (can you imagine?-even with the incomparable Eddie Jones)</div> You do realize Wade and Jordan both went to college before they came to the NBA? Coming in at the age of 18 vs. the age of 22 is a huge difference. If both Jordan, and Wade came to the league straight out of high school neither would have started over Eddie Jones or Nick Van Exel. Hell, Michael Jordan was actually cut from his high school varsity team. Wade didn't start over Eddie Jones, he started over Rafer Alston. You post all these scenarios and don't even have your facts straight. No one is making excuses for Kobe, those are just the reality of it.
Airtight, do some research buddy before coming in here with your nonsense. Your making yourself look really bad.
What's nonsense about what I said Trench ? Kobe is not the MVP-- ...again, Lakers are not in the playoffs, Kobe's stats arent even comparble to the first few years of Magic, Lebron, Jordan, Bird, Wade until his 5th season. Tell me again how I'm making myself "look really bad". I aint out there playing, what facts dont I have straight? Facts?- since the debate is about Kobe or Jordan as individuals in the NBA - fact is that it wasn't until Kobe's 5th season that he comprised season numbers comparable to Jordan in his rookie year. Reading the posts, it sounds like im the only one on here with facts at all. What facts do yall have supporting Kobe better than Jordan, or better than any of these guys? - this is yall's forum right-- I hope yall aint trying to pull a Kobe-- and have me waiting 3-5 yrs before showing me something right.
<div class="quote_poster">Quoting AIRTIGHT:</div><div class="quote_post">What's nonsense about what I said Trench ? Kobe is not the MVP-- ...again, Lakers are not in the playoffs, Kobe's stats arent even comparble to the first few years of Magic, Lebron, Jordan, Bird, Wade until his 5th season. Tell me again how I'm making myself "look really bad". I aint out there playing, what facts dont I have straight? Facts?- since the debate is about Kobe or Jordan as individuals in the NBA - fact is that it wasn't until Kobe's 5th season that he comprised season numbers comparable to Jordan in his rookie year. Reading the posts, it sounds like im the only one on here with facts at all. What facts do yall have supporting Kobe better than Jordan, or better than any of these guys? - this is yall's forum right-- I hope yall aint trying to pull a Kobe-- and have me waiting 3-5 yrs before showing me something right.</div> Did you even bother to read Shapes post? <div class="quote_poster">Quote:</div><div class="quote_post"> You do realize Wade and Jordan both went to college before they came to the NBA? Coming in at the age of 18 vs. the age of 22 is a huge difference. If both Jordan, and Wade came to the league straight out of high school neither would have started over Eddie Jones or Nick Van Exel. Hell, Michael Jordan was actually cut from his high school varsity team. Wade didn't start over Eddie Jones, he started over Rafer Alston. You post all these scenarios and don't even have your facts straight. No one is making excuses for Kobe, those are just the reality of it.</div>
<div class="quote_poster">Quote:</div><div class="quote_post">What's nonsense about what I said Trench ?</div> Have you not read the posts made by Shapecity and Blackmamba at all? They point it out to you clear as day. Did you not read them? You seem to be so self absorbed in being right you probrably didnt even read the posts we made. Why dont you quote our posts and break it down for us. Im breaking down your post in this thread just for you. You just pushing your point without breaking down our points. We have at least 8 pages of good arguements about why Kobe did not get similar numbers to Wade/Lebron but you pick and choose the quotes you want to argue. Please do us this favor and break down our reasoning against yours. Use FACTS! Not just your OPINION. We are not basing our arguements on OPINION, our arguements are based on facts. Im still waiting on yours. Here, I'll be a nice guy and just to give you an example, I'll break down your post for you! <div class="quote_poster">Quote:</div><div class="quote_post"> Kobe is not the MVP-- ...again,</div> What does this have to do with anything. Lebron is not MVP. Wade is not MVP. So what? <div class="quote_poster">Quote:</div><div class="quote_post">Lakers are not in the playoffs,</div> They are not in the playoffs any longer, but they pushed a 2nd seed Suns team to the brink of elimination and they even had a commanding 3-1 lead PLAYING TEAM BALL! <div class="quote_poster">Quote:</div><div class="quote_post">Kobe's stats arent even comparble to the first few years of Magic, Lebron, Jordan, Bird, Wade until his 5th season.</div> We say it again and again. You cant compare them fairly. Kobe was not a starter. Lebron and Wade were both starters. Read the rest of the posts in this thread to understand why you cant compare Kobe rookie and sophomore years to Wade/Lebron. The year Kobe was given quality minutes to play, HE EXPLODED both Offensively and Defensively! Yea, you got it right! On both sides of the ball. Something Lebron and Wade have still yet to accomplish 1st team Defense and 2nd Team Defense Multiple times as well as consecutive ALL STAR APPEARANCES, and 3 championships. Where is WADE and LEBRON's First Team DEFENSE awards? Did you know you play both defense and offense? Or are you all about the HYPE? <div class="quote_poster">Quote:</div><div class="quote_post">Tell me again how I'm making myself "look really bad". I aint out there playing, what facts dont I have straight? Facts?</div> We've been giving you FACTS! Eddie Jones was an all star. Your not going to walk in and take his spot. If Wade or Lebron went to that Lakers team, they would have not started immediately either. Lebron also was gifted with a Man's BODY at a very early age. Something which Jordan, Kobe, Wade, and most other 18 year olds are not. It does make a difference. <div class="quote_poster">Quote:</div><div class="quote_post"> fact is that it wasn't until Kobe's 5th season that he comprised season numbers comparable to Jordan in his rookie year.</div> He wasn't given the starting role like Lebron and Wade got their ROOKIE years!!! SIMPLE. If Kobe had the quality minutes as a rookie, Im sure his numbers would have been better. Kobe never got the opportunity unlike Wade/Lebron to become and instant starter. <div class="quote_poster">Quote:</div><div class="quote_post"> this is yall's forum right--</div> This is the Lakers FORUM. <div class="quote_poster">Quote:</div><div class="quote_post">I hope yall aint trying to pull a Kobe-- and have me waiting 3-5 yrs before showing me something right.</div> Now your just being funny. We all know what Kobe can do. We dont need to wait 3-5 years to tell you what he can do on the court. He is the best in the NBA. I can find 1000's of fans from other teams as well as NBA players who will tell you the same.
<div class="quote_poster">Quote:</div><div class="quote_post">Have you not read the posts made by Shapecity and Blackmamba at all? They point it out to you clear as day. Did you not read them? You seem to be so self absorbed in being right you probrably didnt even read the posts we made. Why dont you quote our posts and break it down for us. Im breaking down your post in this thread just for you. You just pushing your point without breaking down our points. </div> I read every word you guys have written, I didnt want to fill with quotes as I didnt want to fill up the page on every post. <div class="quote_poster">Quote:</div><div class="quote_post">Kobe is not the MVP-- ...again, What does this have to do with anything. Lebron is not MVP. Wade is not MVP. So what? </div> Black Mamba was informing me that Kobe was the best player and esp. best guard in the league-- and consequentiently we began talking about the MVP honors; and sure it doesnt prove Nash necessarily as the best guard in the leauge but what proof/evidence suggests that Kobe is either? Another fact would be a name drop -- <u>Mcgrady</u> <u>Kobe</u> <u>Nash</u> <u>Iverson</u> <u>Kidd</u> <u>James</u> - Kobe the only player in that list never to be considered in the top 3 for MVP voting(4th this year, his best ever, usually closer to the bottom 10 if on the list at all) / yet none of the other five are considered comparable to Jordan.-- all those players save for Kobe having been at least 2nd in voting with 3 awards between them. I dont know what your guys' definition of "best" is but it obviously isnt synonymous with the NBA's definition of 'most valuable' and also doesn't restrict somebody like Jordan who showed he could satisfy both definitions simultaneously. <div class="quote_poster">Quote:</div><div class="quote_post">We have at least 8 pages of good arguements about why Kobe did not get similar numbers to Wade/Lebron but you pick and choose the quotes you want to argue. Please do us this favor and break down our reasoning against yours. Use FACTS! Not just your OPINION. We are not basing our arguements on OPINION, our arguements are based on facts. Im still waiting on yours</div> What facts?? What facts do you have list them again. Sure, you've given a buncha good excuses but I dunno if those are the same as facts. What facts support Kobe here? <div class="quote_poster">Quote:</div><div class="quote_post">We say it again and again. You cant compare them fairly. Kobe was not a starter. Lebron and Wade were both starters. Read the rest of the posts in this thread to understand why you cant compare Kobe rookie and sophomore years to Wade/Lebron. The year Kobe was given quality minutes to play, HE EXPLODED both Offensively and Defensively! Yea, you got it right! On both sides of the ball. Something Lebron and Wade have still yet to accomplish</div> Okay... well lets zoom forward (since we're getting no where comparing Kobe to anyone else at any time during his tenure in the leauge) and become more objective here - what comparative information do you fans have Kobe was or is at any point better than Michael Jordan or should even earn a comparison against him?
<div class="quote_poster">Quote:</div><div class="quote_post">I read every word you guys have written, I didnt want to fill with quotes as I didnt want to fill up the page on every post.</div> Is that so or...you just couldn't find any fact to support your argument? <div class="quote_poster">Quote:</div><div class="quote_post">Black Mamba was informing me that Kobe was the best player and esp. best guard in the league-- and consequentiently we began talking about the MVP honors; and sure it doesnt prove Nash necessarily as the best guard in the leauge but what proof/evidence suggests that Kobe is either?</div> FACT: Kobe got voted to the 1st All NBA Team as a SG this year and had been for 4-5 times whenever Nash had been in the 1st All NBA Team only two times. <div class="quote_poster">Quote:</div><div class="quote_post">Another fact would be a name drop -- Mcgrady Kobe Nash Iverson Kidd James - Kobe the only player in that list never to be considered in the top 3 for MVP voting(4th this year, his best ever, usually closer to the bottom 10 if on the list at all) / yet none of the other five are considered comparable to Jordan.-- all those players save for Kobe having been at least 2nd in voting with 3 awards between them.</div> The biggest reason Kobe got 4th in the MVP ballot this year was due to haters like you. A true basketball fan would know that Kobe should've been at least 2nd. <div class="quote_poster">Quote:</div><div class="quote_post">What facts?? What facts do you have list them again. Sure, you've given a buncha good excuses but I dunno if those are the same as facts. What facts support Kobe here?</div> Here is the 1st two seasons in the NBA for Kobe, you can check it at nba.com YEAR Game GameStart MPG PPG 96-97 71 6 15.5 7.6 97-98 79 1 26.0 15.4 As you can see, Kobe starts a total of 7 games out of 150 games. Despite having Eddie Jone, Nick Van Excel in the backcourt, Kobe still putting up 15.4ppg playing just 26mpg. <div class="quote_poster">Quote:</div><div class="quote_post">Okay... well lets zoom forward (since we're getting no where comparing Kobe to anyone else at any time during his tenure in the leauge) and become more objective here - what comparative information do you fans have Kobe was or is at any point better than Michael Jordan or should even earn a comparison against him?</div> Kobe earns a comparison to MJ because of his talent, skill at both end of the floor, mindset, and determination are sooo similar to MJ. Kobe averages 35ppg this season, score over 50 points/game 6th times, over 40 points/game 26th times, and one 81 points game; that is a number only MJ, Wilt, Elgin, Oscar could match. And more important, Kobe got 3 rings at the age of 24, and already earned himself multiple times on the 1st Team All NBA and 1st Team All NBA Defensive Team. Even Lebron, Wade, Tmac, Iverson, Melo, list goes on...haven't achieve that yet, and certainly Steve Nash WILL never achieve it. Book it, mark it down, record it, highlight it, or do whatever you can to remember: "If Nash receives the All NBA Defensive Team honor, I will burn my house. Promise!"
Black Mamba Ok then, we cant compare Kobe's 1st 4 seaons against Mike or anyone else, we cant compare the last season, So how about the seasons in between- Why didnt' Kobe's numbers compare favorably to Jordan or Lebron
Why can't we compare last season? You make no sense at all. Kobe's first 4 seasons where the seasons meant for college. What don't you understand about that? A player at 22 is a lot more developed than a player at 18. Jordan was far more developed when he entered the NBA than Kobe. Don't bring up LeBron, because he's an exception. McGrady, Kobe, Garnett, O'neal, and Rashard Lewis all took time to become impact players (stars) out of HS.
