<div class="quote_poster">Quoting christianq3:</div><div class="quote_post">yea Hakeem a legend...Duncan not quite there yet</div> Best PF of all time, 3 time Finals MVP, 2 Regular Season MVP's. I'd say he's a legend.
Duncan best PF of all time? I could sense an argument coming up soon. Better than Barkley, Malone, McHale, Dolph Schayes among others?
<div class="quote_poster">Quoting Houston:</div><div class="quote_post">let me put it this way- Dream is arguably the greatest center in history and Duncan is arguably the greatest power forward in history... no need to compare the two...</div> I agree that there is no need to compare the two but Dream as the greatest center in the history of the NBA? Thats crazy talk. He is no where near the level that Chamberlain and Russell played at or even Shaq.<div class="quote_poster">Quote:</div><div class="quote_post"><div class="quote_poster">Quote:</div><div class="quote_post"></div></div>
<div class="quote_poster">Quoting Locke:</div><div class="quote_post">Duncan best PF of all time? I could sense an argument coming up soon. Better than Barkley, Malone, McHale, Dolph Schayes among others?</div> I believe Duncan is the best PF of all time. If you look at his stats and accolades, I don't think their is anyone better. His stats might not be 'out of this world', but he is just a great fundamentally sound player.
<div class="quote_poster">Quoting Lamont:</div><div class="quote_post">I think we can all agree Tim has already far surpassed Robinson, who didn't win a championship untill duncan came along. not to mention duncan won it without him. he's also ahead of malone. i will say duncan is probably a better team player then hakeem. hakeem really only had that window of 2 years in his career where the rockets were really contenders. the spurs so far have been contender the last 6 years.</div> <strike>i'm so tired of you sucking on TD's nuts</strike>. i wasn't going to respond to this thread, but duncan won more, because he has a better supporting cast. think about it. let's look at some great players. lebron, no playoffs yet, even with MJ-like numbers. why? no supporting cast. look at the TD's spurs roster. come on. you can't judge or give an edge to a player but his stats alone. and that is exactly what you are doing. take shaq for instance. his current miami heat. because of him, all of them are shooting a better FG%, **** like that. just him being on the floor makes it so much different. hakeem as everyone said, can take anyone to school. he is a blocking machine, you put him next to ben wallace when he was in his prime, he'd make him look like a fool. sorry if i come as being rude, but you just can't say duncan is better because he won more championships or that he is a good passer. hakeem is a better blocker than duncan. i guess that makes hakeem better. like most people said, you really can't compare the two. hakeem - bad ass center duncan - bad ass power forward also, duncan is a better team player because of a better supporting cast, coaching, etc. if you have a monster like ginobilli, duncan can give the ball to ginobilli, and he will take it to the hole with no fear. as you already know, you probably got my point. to sum it up, again, you can't compare my stats alone or how many championships you've won. i admit TD's team is better than the Hakeem's team. but Hakeem alone is better than TD. he was on another level. he murdered SHAQ like everyone mentioned. SHAQ was a monster throughout the whole playoffs, until Hakeem came to town. 'nuff said. =) my 2 cents.... heheh =) <font color="red">Please refrain from personal attacks in the future. ~Trip</font>
Hakeem at his best was a bit ahead of Duncan at his best but Duncan narrows that gap by being both durable and consistant. Hakeem was remarkably well rounded and one of my all time favorites. Only one C was really beyond him,Wilt. Even then-Wilt was in a different era. The Modern style puts some of the elite big men at PF-technically,but the roles are blurred a bit. Duncan and Garnett are the rebounder/shotblocker force on their teams,they are the inside scorers. Playing a less mobile,back to the basket "center" role would waste their mobility and ball handling. Amare is a similar deal,a very active,mobile big man,who can wear either tag. Hakeem,in his prime played much the same role as do Duncan,Garnett,Amare,in that he was quite active,never relied on a back it in game. Duncan,further,could get points as Russell did by being a key man in a dynasty-if the Spurs have a few more years in the finals. Duncan may also turn out to be a better "past his prime" player. Hakeem's last 3-4 years were not as strong as his prime,not even close. Duncan might have a few more impact seasons...or not. I'd say Hakeem DID have a great supporting cast-for a rather short time. The Spurs managed to transition in a whole new crew around Duncan in recent years. Nobody expected Parker,Ginobli,Bowen to be half as good as they are,and they all emerged after Robinson retired. When Drexler and Sampson left-Hakeem didn't have enough help,by the time Steve Francis appeared-Hakeem was fading. Did Duncan's presence cause Parker,Ginobli etc to become better,quicker than had there been an average big man? You could look at the Celtics with Russell,they replaced Cousy and Sharman with Sam Jones and KC Jones and kept rolling along. Was Russell a factor in Jones+Jones quickly replacing a pair of stars? The bottom line is that it's too close to call-especially as Duncan still has a lot left,and they really didn't match up in the same part of their careers. Comparing Hakeem to Ewing or Duncan to Garnett is relevant as they played in the same time frame.
<div class="quote_poster">Quote:</div><div class="quote_post">He is no where near the level that Chamberlain and Russell played at or even Shaq. </div> LOL....Okay first off if you know anything about basketball then you would know that Hakeem schooled Shaq in the '95 Finals and Shaq himself even admitted to it, plus Hakeem had a better all around game than Shaq on both the defense and offensive end........and Russell???...yes he was great, but all he could do was play Defense, he wasn't much of a offensive threat.......you might have a point with Chamberlin, but from what I understand Wilt was very similar to Shaq (a power game).....Hakeem could do everything, Power,Finesse,Play Defense,Shoot Freethrows (How are you gonna say Shaq is better than Hakeem when his teammates won't even pass him the ball in the last minute of the game, because they're afraid the other team will foul him on purpose and send him to the line to miss a couple of free'b's???)......I know this might come across at biased, but I'll take Hakeem over any bigman that's everplayed for the simple fact, that he's that damn good.
Duncan might not be the best PF of all time but you could certainly plead his case. In my opinion Tim though is certainly the best player of the modern era. During the Jordan Era I think both MJ, Malone, and perhaps a select group of other players were better than Hakeem. I'd take Duncan myself.
^^^Malone????....Stockton had a lot to do with Malone's success.....Hakeem won championships in an era with Robinson,Ewing,Shaq,Barkley,Malone,Stockton,Jordan,Miller,etc.......Malone couldn't make half the impact as Hakeem did on the defensive end and on the offensive end Malone would settle for the jump shot a tad too much at times......oh and Hakeem never choked under pressure like the Mail Man......and who are these other select group of players who were better than Hakeem????.....get real homie....the only person that I could see someone taking over Hakeem during his prime in that era was MJ....and that's it......anyone else would be ridiculous.
<div class="quote_poster">Quoting joonshin:</div><div class="quote_post"> also, duncan is a better team player because of a better supporting cast, coaching, etc. if you have a monster like ginobilli, duncan can give the ball to ginobilli, and he will take it to the hole with no fear. as you already know, you probably got my point. to sum it up, again, you can't compare my stats alone or how many championships you've won. i admit TD's team is better than the Hakeem's team. </div> first of all how does td have a better team then hakeem. lets see: hakeem had clyde drexler, robert horry in his prime, kenny the jet smith who was better then parker is today. how is td's team so much better? i compared the 2 because they are players who put up similar stats and who can shift between the 4 and 5 spot.
Once again I'll have to say 94-95 Rockets >>> current Spurs roster.............we had a young Robert Horry,Clyde Drexler (one of the 50's greatest of all time),Kenny Smith,Sam Cassell (young and deadly),Mario Elie (ferocious defender and clutch down the stretch),Chuckie Brown,Chilcutt,etc.......the big difference between those Rockets and these Spurs is play down the stretch.....honestly if not for Robert Horry being the only spur to show up in the 4th quarter and overtime of Game 5 last year, we'd be talkin about Pistons being champions.......that Rockets team had a lot more mental toughness than the spurs......if you knock Parker to the floor a couple of times, he's shown that he can become a non-factor.....Duncan at times throughout his entire career has shown to be shaky down the stretch.....can't say that about anyone on those rocket teams.......and the competition that rockets team played against was much better than anything the Spurs have seen......we went all the way that season on the road.....we beat a tough Jazz team in the first round, we made a miraculous comeback and a gutsy game 7 performance against the Suns, then Hakeem made D. Rob look silly the next series and then we swept a young dangerous Orlando Magic team.....those Rockets would take these Spurs in a series......I swear I'd pay to see Manu and Parker try to come down the lane against Hakeem in his prime!!!!.......Tony would be running home to Eva so fast....LOL.
umm.....HAKEEM Season 89-90 he averaged 4.59 BPG. OMGWTFBBQ. He's had 12 blocks in a game TWICE. The guy blows TD out of the water.
<div class="quote_poster">Quoting Rock4life:</div><div class="quote_post">Duncan's numbers are better right now, because he's still younger. Hakeem played a couple years too many, and his averages went down as he got older. Hakeem is in a whole another category. Duncan has a place in the Hall Of Fame, but he ain't no Hakeem. Maybe a slightly better rebounder, but Hakeem was the best all around Center EVER. He did things that no center has done. He was the first center to have that type of quickness, and footwork. We're talking about a guy who made David Robinson cry, and outplayed Patrick Ewing and Shaq in the finals two different years. This guy was incredible.............</div> Exacto Mundo. About the 97-98 season was the beginning of his decline. He did play for far to long. I was amazed how much his numbers dropped. O yeah Olajuwon is I feel better. He didn't have the Jordan era to compete with. And the first year the Rockets won they didn't have any other all-star. I think Vernon Maxwell was their 2nd best player at that time.
<div class="quote_poster">Quoting THE DREAM:</div><div class="quote_post">LOL....Okay first off if you know anything about basketball then you would know that Hakeem schooled Shaq in the '95 Finals and Shaq himself even admitted to it, plus Hakeem had a better all around game than Shaq on both the defense and offensive end.</div> Yes, Hakeem schooled shaq in the '95 finals when Shaq was 23 years old and not close to his prime. Hakeem however was 31 years old and as good as he ever was. You can't use that matchup as a comparison for the two over their careers. Hakeem was a better defender but are you really gonna argue that Hakeem was better offensivly that Shaq? Three words for ya: Most Dominant Ever. NO one has ever been as dominant as Shaq was. <div class="quote_poster">Quote:</div><div class="quote_post">........and Russell???...yes he was great, but all he could do was play Defense, he wasn't much of a offensive threat.......you might have a point with Chamberlin, but from what I understand Wilt was very similar to Shaq (a power game).....Hakeem could do everything, Power,Finesse,Play Defense,Shoot Freethrows</div> About Russell: I have 11 reason why he is a better player than Hakeem: 1) Championship #1 2) Championship #2 3) Championship #3 4) Championship #4 5) Championship #5 6) Championship #6 7) Championship #7 8) Championship #8 9) Championship #9 10) Championship #10 11) Championship #11 When it came down to it Russell always came up big in the big games. In a Big Game there is no other Center I would rather have on my team. No, he wasn't the best offensive player ever but you could make a case for the best rebounder ever (sorry Worm). 22.5 rebounds per game is just ridiculous. 4.3 apg is very good for a big man too. Five times he was the MVP of the league. Then you say you can make an argument for Wilt basicly saying that Wilt was better than Russell? You won't find many that agree with you on that because Russell usually bested Wilt in their head-to-head encounters.
Russel's era wasn't as competitive as Olajuwon's....both you and me know that..........Shaq dominated in a time where there were no other big men....and once again how do you consider Shaq the best when you can't even go to him down the stretch?????.......Hakeem was dominant in his own way also....sure Shaq was more powerful, but all around Hakeem was better (and that's a fact)
<div class="quote_poster">Quote:</div><div class="quote_post">Hakeem won championships in an era with Robinson,Ewing,Shaq,Barkley,Malone,Stockton,Jordan ,Miller,etc</div> Yeah, great point, that means Hakeem won against very strong teams like Knicks, Spurs, Jazz, Bulls, Pacers, Suns, Trailblazers etc. Now, would you really want to compare the strong teams we had in mid 90's with what we have today? Now it is Spurs against nobody (LA till 2004), in mid 90's we had at least 5 title contenders every year. And talking about Russell. Yes, great player, but we are talking about a jurassic basketball. He won his last title in 1969 guys, 36 years ago!!! How can you compare players of different era?
<div class="quote_poster">Quoting THE DREAM:</div><div class="quote_post">Hakeem won championships in an era with Robinson,Ewing,Shaq,Barkley,Malone,Stockton,Jordan,Miller,etc...</div> I dont see the point made here. Anyone that win a championship does it at a time with other stars in the league. And that little list you made isnt even that impressive. Robinson nixed the Hakeem point because he won championships while hakeem played. Shaq was in his 3/4th years in the league when Hakeem won his 'ships. Miller was no where near the caliber of those other players. MJ was in the same era as those other guys but during the two years Hakeem won Michael was either playing baseball or still getting the rust off after taking such a long break. I just don't see the point. <div class="quote_poster">Quote:</div><div class="quote_post">sure Shaq was more powerful, but all around Hakeem was better (and that's a fact)</div> Thats a fact? since when? you can't have a fact of comparing two great players who weren't ever matched up when they were both in their primes. My opinion as well as yours is just that opinion.
<div class="quote_poster">Quoting Lamont:</div><div class="quote_post">I think we can all agree Tim has already far surpassed Robinson, who didn't win a championship untill duncan came along. not to mention duncan won it without him. he's also ahead of malone. i will say duncan is probably a better team player then hakeem. hakeem really only had that window of 2 years in his career where the rockets were really contenders. the spurs so far have been contender the last 6 years.</div> Uuum...No. Hakeem was GREAT his whole career, he was just even GREATER during the Rockets championship run. He came in the league a defensive stopper, which he maintained. But he developed the most lethal offensive arsenal of any bigman to EVER play the game. I dare you to even think about challenging that. Micheal Jordan named Hakeem the best player in the league when he retired, and even put him on his all-time starting 5 (over Chamberlin, Shaq, and Russell). That's just an example of how great this guy was. Theres nothing Duncan can do that Hakeem couldn't do better, and 10 times faster. This shouldn't be much of a debate................... You guys can get away with dissecting Yao's game, that's fine. But to say Hakeem isn't one of the 5 greatest Center of alltime is foolish. Duncan won another ring this year, but he wasn't even the best player in the finals, it was Robert Horry. Duncan is great, but I notice games where he disappears. Hakeem was always a factor, and his defense was better than any bigman playing right now. Anybody who actually watched Hakeem knows this is truth.
<div class="quote_poster">Quoting Rock4life:</div><div class="quote_post">Duncan won another ring this year, but he wasn't even the best player in the finals, it was Robert Horry. </div> WOAH!! Horry was far from the best player in the Finals, but he was the most clutch. Throughout the course of the games Duncan was better just in the last few minutes of games Horry excelled.
