Sonics vs. Timberwolves: Official Game Thread

Details:

When: Friday, November 4th
Where: KeyArena, Seattle
Time (Seattle): 7:30
TV: ESPN

Projected Starters:

<font color="green">Seattle (0-1)</font>

Luke Ridnour
Ray Allen
Rashard Lewis
Reggie Evans
Johan Petro

<font color="Blue">Minnesota (1-0)</font>

Marko Jaric
Trenton Hassell
Wally Szczerbiak
Kevin Garnett
Michael Olowokandi

Injury Troubles:

<font color="green">Seattle</font>

Robert Swift - Sore left hip (doubtful)
Clinton "Mikki" Moore - Sore left knee (doubtful)
Danny Fortson - Sore left toe (probable)
Rick Brunson - Plantar fasciitis (probable)
Vitaly Potapenko - Sore left hamstring (probable)


<font color="blue">Minnesota</font>

Troy Hudson - strained left hip flexor (questionable)

Inactive List:

<font color="green">Seattle</font>

Robert Swift
Mateen Cleaves
Clinton "Mikki" Moore

<font color="blue">Minnesota</font>


Ronald Dupree
Bracey Wright
Dwayne Jones


Brief Notes:

<ul>
[*]The Sonics first nationally televised game this season will be against a familiar face as former long time assistant Dwane Casey makes his first trip back to the Emarald City as the new Timberwolves head coach. He won his coaching debut on Wednesday night against his former boss, Nate McMillan, 90-86.
[*]The Sonics are looking to bounce back from a disappointing 101-93 opening night loss against the Clippers. This game is important because the Sonics play their next six games on the road.
[*] The Sonics are still looking for someone to step up and take on that third scorer role. Outside of Ray Allen and Rashard Lewis no Sonic scored more than 8 points on Wednesday night.
[*]Coach Weiss is already being questioned about his substitution pattern and it is important for him to cement a rotation that will enable both the starters and the role players to get into a groove offensively and compete defensively.



[*]Former Sonic Richie Frahm was very impressive in his Timberwolves debut scoring 18 points in 15 minutes.
[*]Troy Hudson is a game time decision with a strained hip flexor.
[/list]
<div align="center">Random Sir Charles Quote:

<div align="left"> "Mark Cuban knows his business and has a lot more money than me, but I don't care if he lives to be 1,000 years old, he will never know more basketball than me."

All predictions, analysis and discussion relating directly to the game, both before, during and after, to be posted in this thread.
</div>
</div>

 

Keys for tonight's game IMHO:

Stick to the guards like glue. Hudson and Frahm are both streaky shooters and we could all have flashbacks to Sam-I-AM from Wednesday night if you play defense like that again tonight.

Just keep Garnett working. If you hold him to 20 points, 10 rebounds and 5 assists you can say you shut him down.

Run the blasted offense. Play to your strengths. Use the pick and roll and run the break.

Let Petro play when he is doing well, he doesn't slow down the game like JJ did, so stay big, you know Garnett is playing 48 minutes at least.

 

I agree with those points. I would really like to see some Ridnour-Collision pick and roles to get both them playin well. Its something that hasnt been mentioned much but as a tandem I think those 2 could be the 3rd option we are looking for. Atleast as a backup if Vlade or Flip dont take it.

 

It's tough to label the second game of the season a must win, but it's pretty tough to drop the first two games at home and then get out on the road for six nights. We have had the wood on the Wolves recently, but we really need Luke to run Jaric (and his knees) around and for Rashard to get aggressive with Szczerbiak. They can only play Hassell on one of our swingmen, and the other has to be looking to score as often as possible.

We drop this, and we could be staring down a 1-7 or 2-6 start.

 

We just need to play defense against their gaurds who shoot good, if we let those good shooters open its game over for us. If we cant play defense on them try to score as much as possible.

And yeah keep Petro in the game more..

 

I really feel like were going to have trouble being successful until this rotation is cut. Flip,Wilkins, or Brunson needs to be completely out. By cutting one of those out I think it will generally make it easier to get Vlade minutes as well.

 

47-47 at the half.

The good news is it can only get better surely, very sloppy performance and we're still all square.

41% from the floor (Wolves shooting 54%), 0-11 from downtown as well. Collison playing great and Reggie doing a super job on Garnett (KG has eight points, four turnovers).

 

Big, big win.

After the Clippers debacle, I was interested to see how we went in a close game down the stretch. When they pulled back to 90-89, I thought they were going to run over us, but full credit to Ray and Rashard for coming up with some big scores, and guys like Nick, Damien and even Mateen who all provided a spark. Luke probably wasn't as influential as we'd all like, but he still had 10 points and nine dimes.

I like the way Bobby keeps the opposition guessing with his rotations too. Very satisfying to pull out a win when your shot isn't dropping, especially when the opponents' is.

 

Mostly I was relieved to see that we could make up for our shot being off by drawing fouls even without AD. That's just one of the things I was worried about this season, and this is a good indication that we can still do it without Daniels.

 

Huge win.

I really like how Ray Allen is playing so far this season. He is really shooting high percentage shots (except the one at the end of regulation) and he isn't pounding the ball to get open shots. He kept working despite the fact that his shot was off basically for the first three quarters. If he can keep this up he will be one of the league's top scorers this season.

Glad to see that Weiss played Fortson big minutes tonight. His energy is what we were lacking in the Clippers loss. Granted he is out of shape, but he is the only guy that we have right now who is competing on the offensive glass. There isn't as much pick and roll action as their was last season, partly b/c we are trying to get more transition basket, so if we are going to get offensive rebounds guys are going to actually start having to maneuver around defenders instead of having clear lanes to run to the rim b/c of the screen and roll action.

Sweet Lew looks like he's added some dribble moves for the season. This game was the first that I've seen him attack the rim off of the bounce in the half court. He actually took Garnett to the basket with a nice right to left crossover and got fouled. The way that we are shooting from the line I'd like to see more guys get into the lane and create contact.

That all being said it is going to be a very up and down season for us. We have absolutely no post players who can score with their backs to the basket. If people thought that we were perimeter oriented last year it is evident that we are even moreso this season. Now that Luke has the primary guard responsibility he has to be able to make plays in the half court. He was atrocious tonight at all aspects of the game. His shot was off, he turned the ball over, he was forcing shots, he got torched by Jaric. Mateen Cleaves gave us a huge burst off of the bench partly because we needed someone to play productive minutes at the one. Granted Mateen had some costly fouls and turnovers but considering that he hasn't played meaningful minutes on a fully stacked team since his rookie season, I was impressed with his efforts.

Weiss made a statement to Damien Wilkins by not playing him in the first half. I guess that is his way of humbling guys that take their issues to the media. I wonder what his reasoning was for Flip who didn't see the floor at all in the second half. I guess that is what you get when you try to be a company man. His turnovers in the first half were all debateable, and the Sonics ball movement looked decent when he played. I just have the feeling that in this organization he is always going to be the fall guy when we need to make adjustments within the game. I'm not upset because we won the game but I hope that this isn't a recurrent theme from last year.

Congratulations Bob, you can rest easy tonight. It's time to pack the bags b/c we are going to be on the road for quite some time next week.

 

I posted a lot of my thoughts in the Marquee Matchup Thread but Ill reflect a little bit of it here.

Thank you Sonics for letting the Wolves stay in the game. Ugly first half. Wolves bobbled the ball the entire first half, and the Sonics couldn't knock down anything - but stayed in the game thanks to offensive rebounds. A lot of those offensive rebounds came because Garnett was gaurding Lewis on the outside.

Mateen Cleaves made some big shots for ya'll, and Im glad for the kid. Also big props to Ray Allen - he showed his worth in OT putting the Wolves away.

Olowokandi showed flashes of his rebounding skills - hauling in plenty of offensive rebounds. I was satisfied with his preformence even though he missed a key shot at the end of the game.

I like what I saw from Szczerbiak. He missed some shots he normally makes, but he was in foul trouble so I think that took him out of the sync of the game. He took some key charges to keep the Wolves in it, and was taking good shots.

Wolves need to get the ball to Garnett more. One touch down the floor isnt enough, when he passes out to get better post position, don't go away from him, get it back to him.

And finally, Jaric is pretty athletic and has a great shot, but still is no Sammy C. Down the stretch is where it would have been Sam and Garnett, and with Sammy shooting or Garnett taking it in the post or drawing a foul would have felt more comfortable than playing hot potato around the 3pt line to find the ball in Dupree's (?!) hands for a TO.

Sonics were given the game - and the eventually took it.

Wolves - get back the fundamentals - defensive rebounding, passing, catching the ball, defensive rotation. There are lot of problems I see, but in the end we were still in it.

 

Sheik-

I think you missed how bad Flip played tonight, and on Wednesday. I liked 25% of his game Wed and only 10% tonight. Weiss played Flip in the first half because he knows what Flip CAN do. He played Damien and Mateen in the second because it didn't look like Flip was going to bring it tonight. He gambled and it paid off. He didn't play Damien in the first for matchups...He had Vlade start at the 4 and move to the 3. He had Flip start at the 2 and move to the 1. There was no room for Damien until he decided to sit Flip.

Lew can play with his back to the basket, but not against KG, that is why there was no post play tonight. Casey had the Big Ticket on Lew almost the whole night, and he still put up 19 points. The guards made up for it by penetrating on the Wolve's switches and the bigs were going for the boards. It was a well coached game on both sides, and I thought the Sonics played extremely well overall. They had some sloppy offense in the first half, but their post defense was rock solid all night. KG and the Kandyman had some post scoring over the shorter defenders, when the perimeter players stuck with the shooters, but they were stymied most of the night. If they can fine tune their perimeter defense and their pick and roll defense they might actually have a defensive aspect to their game. The Sonics don't outscore their opponents in the paint unless they shut down the paint for the other team.

I agree 100% that there is no reason a team that shoots free throws like this Sonics team not take it to the rack 40 times a game.

 

great game to watch. I felt we showed some real signs tonight even though clearly corks still need to be worked out. I liked our big man rotation and I was thinking after the 1st half that it may be time to put a backup pg in for ridnour and not Flip. Realistically if we want to be a running team can we expect Flip to run the show for us when Ridnour isnt in the game? He makes waaaaaaay to many bad plays with to few good ones. Plus by going with Brunson or Cleaves we get the benefit of getting Wilkins backup shooting guard minutes which is great because hes far more deserving then Flip.

Per performance Ridnour and Flip (obviously) were the only players I was disappointed with. Petro was solid and Potapenko did what he does although that layup he missed at the end would be more of a conversation piece had the game went the other way. Looooved Fortson tonight and Shiek said it well when he said we need him to play well. I dont really think the difference though was in Weiss so much as it was in Fortson. Fortson may have fouled out tonight but generally his fouls werent absolutely horrible ones and he showed real energy and got to the glass and scored off those offensive rebounds like only he can.

I also find the Vlade situation interesting. Although Vlade again had a bad shooting tonight (didnt have just a ton of opportunties though) he did play with energy atleast. Will be interesting to see if hes going to have an opportunity to earn his minutes back. If Collison and Fortson keep playing the way they are together im not sure its possible. I really expected before the season started for Weiss to be more of a small ball coach then Nate but from what Weiss has said and done in these games I think I may have been incorrect.

in conclusion GOOOOOOOOO MATEEN CLEAVES!!!!!!!!!!

 

I dont like Flip as our main back up, I say trade him off and keep Mateen as our main back up 4 Luke..I think Mateen can come up and be that AD we let go..Hes a vet and he plays with leadership..I think the main rotations should be Mateen, Wilks, Nick, Fortson and Vladimir..

I like Flip and all, but he just dribbles the ball too much and turns it over alot..Lets keep Mateen in our rotation and see if he can do this night in and night out!

And Ray saved us in OT..You can tell he wants to win baddddddd.

Ps. Hopefully Ridnour is just a big rusty lol..He was horrible for 2 games straight.

OHHH YEAH..And Mateen plays pretty good D also, cuz Troy Hudson kept hitting midrange jumpers and stuff, but Mateen came in and stopped him from doing that..He played some good D for us.

 

<div class="quote_poster">Quoting psheehy:</div><div class="quote_post">Lew can play with his back to the basket, but not against KG, that is why there was no post play tonight. Casey had the Big Ticket on Lew almost the whole night, and he still put up 19 points.

It was a well coached game on both sides, and I thought the Sonics played extremely well overall. </div>


Majority of Lewis' points came against other defenders, and while Garnett was benched.

Also I disagree with half of the bolded statement. Well coached game for the Sonics, very well indeed - especially with keeping Mateen Cleaves in late. The Wolves on the other hand - had no rythm coming off the bench - McCants had a brief stint in the first half - but never saw the floor again in the second half. Granted his first half wasn't exactly great - but go back to the man, he created some open looks for other players... the rotation was horrible. And Casey brought Garnett back in the game way to late - after the Sonics had taken the lead and Garnett was stale from sitting on the bench late in the 3rd and well into the 4th. I blame the game on the coaching and poor matchup. Putting Garnett on Lewis may have limited his post game - but it allowed the Sonics tons of offensive rebounds.

 

first of all I feel i need to correct myself when I said Radmanovic shot badly. He was 2-4...i guess i just felt with the theme of the game he shot bad. Anyways I think its a dream to suggest Cleaves can be what Antonio Daniels was. Maybe Cleaves is capable of backing up Ridnour at point and playing 12-20 mpg but as for being Daniels no way. But he can direct the offense and he doesnt do absolutely stupid things like Flip and I really felt his defense looked much better. I think a major factor with giving those pg minutes to Cleaves or Brunson is that it opens up sg minutes for Wilkins.

BTW does anyone know why Cleaves was activated over Brunson for this game? Just a hunch by Weiss or was Brunsons foot acting up?

 

<div class="quote_poster">Quoting Iron Shiek:</div><div class="quote_post">
Now that Luke has the primary guard responsibility he has to be able to make plays in the half court. He was atrocious tonight at all aspects of the game. His shot was off, he turned the ball over, he was forcing shots, he got torched by Jaric.</div>

Couldn't agree more. Atrocious is a perfect adjective to describe his play tonight. 4 turnovers, but at least 4 other plays that he made horrible decisions with the basketball where we got nothing out of the posession - leaving his feet with no one to pass to, turning down wide open looks, forcing passes and a few very wild shots. Big guards are going to hurt this team this year. Luke tries hard, but even with the added weight, still struggles with the pick. I do understand its virtually impossible when you have to worry about helping on Garnett, and then getting back to defend a guy 1/2 foot taller who is shooting well.

Biggest problem this season is going to be finding a 3rd scorer who can put up points without disrupting the offense. Vladi is perfect when he's hitting his shot, but it seems like he's been relegated to Nick's backup. I guess we'll know for sure when the rust/injury questions should take care of themselves.

 

<div class="quote_poster">Quoting Coolguy777:</div><div class="quote_post">
BTW does anyone know why Cleaves was activated over Brunson for this game? Just a hunch by Weiss or was Brunsons foot acting up?</div>

I think I heard mentioned it was the foot from the announcers. Can't remember if it was Snapper on ESPN or when I realized FSN was also broadcasting the game and quickly switched over to listen to Calabro. But want to say it was Kevin who mentioned it.

 

Flip is a guy who needs minutes to preform. Not a bench player by any means, and I think limiting him in minutes and off the bench is forcing him to try to do to much all at once. He def needs a move to a team that could use a slasher/scorer (cough minnesota) at maybe the 2 spot.

Btw I think Mateen Cleaves would be a perfect backup in the league. I would think of him as a Ben Rothlesberger - he won't hurt the team, and can come up with big layups in the crunch time.

Cleaves also makes a good cheerleader - when do you not see this guy standing up cheering the team on from him jumpsuit.

 

<div class="quote_poster">Quoting Coolguy777:</div><div class="quote_post">Looooved Fortson tonight and Shiek said it well when he said we need him to play well. I dont really think the difference though was in Weiss so much as it was in Fortson. Fortson may have fouled out tonight but generally his fouls werent absolutely horrible ones and he showed real energy and got to the glass and scored off those offensive rebounds like only he can. </div>

I think at the end of the day, you know Danny is going to foul out or go close to it - it's not about limiting the fouls with him, it's making them count and getting as much production possible from him in the time he is on court.

Tonight he had close to a double double and some key offensive rebounds (which was vital with the way we shot it), which is great value for his six fouls.

With Reggie, Nick and Pot on the roster, I am happy for Danny to foul out in 15-20 minutes every night as long as he gets value for his fouls.