stop obsessing over lebron and stop dissing him. see hi for what he is, one of the best in the league with so much more room to get bettter. lets be honest whoever says artest is better is on a lot of drugs, cause afterthis whole fight evryone one has been kissing artests a$$ honestly hes maybe top 20, lebron might not be better than tmac yet bt believe me he will be. Also on the other side of this ur talking 25/7/7 um pierce has put up those numbers before and hey look at thqat is doing it again (IMO mostunderrated playe in the NBA). The moral of the story kids, Let Theboy king playcause we all know hes top ten and will getso much better, artest is way overrated, so is jermaine o neal (but thats besides the pont), and pierce is underrated watch nba all the time like me and youll see what im saying
<div class="quote_poster">Quote:</div><div class="quote_post"> McGrady and. Choke. should not even be used in the same sentence you... </div> 2003 Eastern Conference Playoffs Game One Magic 99, Pistons 94 Game Two Pistons 89, Magic 77 Game Three Magic 89, Pistons 80 Game Four Magic 100, Pistons 92 *After Game Four, T-Mac said it felt great to finally get past the first round of the playoffs, guess he forgot you have to win 4* Game Five Pistons 98, Magic 67 Game Six Pistons 103, Magic 88 Game Seven Pistons 108, Magic 93 T-Macs Line Game 7: 21 points on 7-24 shooting and a team-high 4 turnovers. 2005 Western Conference Playoffs Game One Rockets 98, Mavs 86 Game Two Rockets 113, Mavs 11 Game Three Mavs 106, Rockets 102 Game Four Mavs 97, Rockets 93 Game Five Mavs 103, Rockets 100 Game Six Rockets 101, Mavs 83 Game Seven Mavs 116, Rockets 76 T-Macs Line Game 7: 27 points on 10-26 shooting and again a team high 4 turnovers. Say what you want, but the fact is the great players don't let their teams slip in the playoffs. Jordan, Bird, Magic, Isiah, Russell, Duncan, Reggie, Iverson do not let 3-1 playoff leads go to waste. T-Mac is a choker plain and simple, he is a great scorer probably the best in the league, one of the best playmakers no way I can argue that, but when it comes to getting it done when its needed most, when it comes to making your teamates better, T-Mac is not your guy. Get off that 13 points in 35 seconds, that doesn't make him a great clutch player. Tony Delk dropped 50 in a game before, does that make him a great scorer?
<div class="quote_poster">Quoting FedEx227:</div><div class="quote_post">2003 Eastern Conference Playoffs Game One Magic 99, Pistons 94 Game Two Pistons 89, Magic 77 Game Three Magic 89, Pistons 80 Game Four Magic 100, Pistons 92 *After Game Four, T-Mac said it felt great to finally get past the first round of the playoffs, guess he forgot you have to win 4* Game Five Pistons 98, Magic 67 Game Six Pistons 103, Magic 88 Game Seven Pistons 108, Magic 93 T-Macs Line Game 7: 21 points on 7-24 shooting and a team-high 4 turnovers. 2005 Western Conference Playoffs Game One Rockets 98, Mavs 86 Game Two Rockets 113, Mavs 11 Game Three Mavs 106, Rockets 102 Game Four Mavs 97, Rockets 93 Game Five Mavs 103, Rockets 100 Game Six Rockets 101, Mavs 83 Game Seven Mavs 116, Rockets 76 T-Macs Line Game 7: 27 points on 10-26 shooting and again a team high 4 turnovers. Say what you want, but the fact is the great players don't let their teams slip in the playoffs. Jordan, Bird, Magic, Isiah, Russell, Duncan, Reggie, Iverson do not let 3-1 playoff leads go to waste. T-Mac is a choker plain and simple, he is a great scorer probably the best in the league, one of the best playmakers no way I can argue that, but when it comes to getting it done when its needed most, when it comes to making your teamates better, T-Mac is not your guy. Get off that 13 points in 35 seconds, that doesn't make him a great clutch player. Tony Delk dropped 50 in a game before, does that make him a great scorer?</div> still don't get how u're using playoffs in this debate when lebron hasn't even been in them
<div class="quote_poster">Quoting JWohl:</div><div class="quote_post">He hasn't done anything great yet? What NBA are you watching? Is being one of only 4 players to record a 25/7/7 season in NBA history not classified as doing something great? 7 assists for a SF? GREAT. 7 rebounds per game for a SF? Great. This season: Shooting over 50% as a SF? Great.</div> Those are all good achievments, but don't determine how good he's going to be 5-10 years from now. If his career ended tomorrow, those accomplishments won't put him in the hall of fame. <div class="quote_poster">Quoting JWohl:</div><div class="quote_post">About Kobe: The writer of the article makes a good point, that when Kobe dominates he does it soley through scoring not making his teammates better and setting them up. LBJ can dominate by making the players around him better. With that being said Kobe is better than LBJ because of his defense. </div> But the difference is Kobe's better at taking over the game, despite the way he does it. Kobe is the most dominating guard in the league, and will be for the next couple years. Not only is Kobe's defense better, but his offense is much better too. <div class="quote_poster">Quoting JWohl:</div><div class="quote_post">Can somebody please explain to me how TMac is better than LBJ? People keep stating he is better without elaborating.</div> Simple, Tmac has put up Lebron's numbers before. Lebron's probably a better rebounder, but Tmac is a more effective scorer. Tmac doesn't average as much right now, but he knows how to dominate a game better. Plus his defense is light years ahead of Lebron's.
I love how everyone is saying that oh Lebron doesn't have the talent next to him. He's got another allstar. Z is an allstar. He also has a good young big in Drew Gooden. If he's so good at making people better, then why can't he get them to win and go to the playoffs. (I'm not hating, I'm just trying to get this point across-the same thing can be said for Tmac and now Kobe in the Shaqless era) Tmac made the playoffs in his first or 2nd year with the Magic with a lineup of Jacque Vaughn, Tmac, Mike Miller, Pat Garrity, and Andrew Declerq. None of them can hold Z or Drew Gooden's crotch. On the other hand, TMac is not clutch. He had that one great game. I've been a Magic fan my whole life and Tmac works so hard through the first 40-45 mins of the game that he is gassed for the final 3 minutes and can never seem to get anything right. He missed so many possible chances for the Magic to win a ball game at the final shot. Honestly I would rather of had Pat Garrity shooting the ball at the end then Tmac. I used to say this. Tmac without a doubt is the best player in the NBA through the first 3 and a half quarters, but the last half of the 4th quarter is a completly different story.
<div class="quote_poster">Quoting Rock4life:</div><div class="quote_post"> But the difference is Kobe's better at taking over the game, despite the way he does it. Kobe is the most dominating guard in the league, and will be for the next couple years. Not only is Kobe's defense better, but his offense is much better to</div> How is Kobe's offence better? i'm going to make a bold statement and say lebron is the most efficient non center/PF scorer in the game right now. He's soring 28.5ppg on 50% FG while shooting at 37% from the 3 compared to Kobe: 34.3ppg on 43% and 30% from the 3, you can't even claim Kobe is a better 3 point shooter than Lebron right now. Last season i believed Kobe was the better player than Lebron, but right now aside from defence how can you say kobe is a better player? He' hasn't made the playoffs without Shaq and his team has a losing record right now, remember were not talking past accomplishments its who's better this season period. I will say that i think tmac is still the most clutch player in the last 4 mins.
The difference between the great players in the game today like AI, Kobe, TMac, KG, and Shaq compared to Lebron is that they can take over a game, and carry their teams on their back night in and night out (for the most part). Lebron does that every once in awhile, but for the most part, he's just a stat whore, and the fact that his team hasn't yet made the playoffs prove that. AI has had worse supporting casts than Lebron's team the past 2 years , but he finds a way to make the playoffs.
<div class="quote_poster">Quote:</div><div class="quote_post">AI has had worse supporting casts than Lebron's team the past 2 years , but he finds a way to make the playoffs. </div> Being in the atlantic always helps too. The Cavs play in a division that sent 3teams to the playoffs and one to the finals. I've said it before a I'll say it again, Lebron shouldn't be judged on the playoffs until he has a decent team around him. He may have had Z last year, but I still dont think they were a very good team, and it doesnt help when your coach is fired during the playoff race. Let's not forget that kobe missed the playoffs last year with a similarily mediocre team. This is the year to judge Lebrons ability to make the playoffs. If he fails this year, which he won't, then i'll join virve's lebron hating bandwagon.
calm down children and listen, this stupid post could go on forever saying yes he is and no hes not. but i got better things to do like playin ball (do it for four hours a day and ull see what a waste all of this is) okay lets see supporting cast theres a little guard called larry hughes, um yeah hes a 20 ppg player with at least two steals a game, also tmac has YAO and while IMO Yao has been a disappointment THOUGH thisyear looks to be his best yet, and he howard, hes a good quality player dont hate him, and sura is pretty nice, THAT being been said, neither of their teams have done CRAP in the playoffs, but i think we should take this whole thing outta the mix, cause while The King has a better cast right now, he's only been around for two years, and T-mac has been in the league for eight and he has help in houston for about two years now. Tmac+2 years on houston wit Yao = nada in the playoffs LBJ +2 years on Cavs wit Z= nothing in the playoffs (but this year i see him in the second round) once again let me say this (maybe im just insane) VIVA LE PIERCE hes the most underrated player in the league not dwight howard im very sorry
actually dwight isnt even top 5 underrated double P,CB4, AK47, fill in the blanks with either Rashard Lewis, Jason Richardson, Ricky Davis, Terry, Antwan Jamison(hes on gilberts team thats why)
YoungBaller You make me laugh This has nothing to do with Paul Pierce Please start a new thread or something if you so eager to talk about Pierce
<div class="quote_poster">Quoting babybulls:</div><div class="quote_post">still don't get how u're using playoffs in this debate when lebron hasn't even been in them</div> The original debate was T-Mac as the greatest player in the league or one of the best. I disagreed with that and people got on my case, that was me defending my point. In my mind LBJ isn't top just yet either I'd have Duncan, AI, Kobe, Garnett, Shaq (when healthy).
YO how is Kobe better than lebron? lets see last season kobe on a team that fails to make playoffs average 27.4 ppg, lebron averages 27,7,7 on a team that fails to make playoff. This year Kobe still on team likely to not get to the playoffs, lebron having best season of career and 90% destined for the playoffs. So how is Kobe better then Lebron? can someone give a good answer
<div class="quote_poster">Quote:</div><div class="quote_post">The only reason he is not at the top of my list is because, by nature of being 6-foot-11 and playing in the post, he has to rely on others to get him the ball where he can do the most damage. </div> That's such a ridiculous argument. Post players will always be more important than guards. It doesn't matter that Duncan doesn't handle the ball. He would be the focal point of any offense, even if Lebron was on the team. The only way he could argue for Lebron is by saying he is a better all-around player, but then you could just bring up KG, who has so many talents and is a post player as well.
<div class="quote_poster">Quoting myself:</div><div class="quote_post">Can somebody please explain to me how TMac is better than LBJ? People keep stating he is better without elaborating.</div> <div class="quote_poster">Quoting Wade Dynasty:</div><div class="quote_post">Bron is great but not the best. It's hard to tell who's the best but right now it's Kobe and T-Mac</div> Thanks for elaborating on that for me. <div class="quote_poster">Quote:</div><div class="quote_post">It's even hard to tell if he's better than Wade.</div> Maybe its hard for some one who loves Dwayne Wade enough to have "wade dynasty" as their username and "Shaq & Wade Reign" in their sig. A little bias maybe? <div class="quote_poster">Quoting Igoudala:</div><div class="quote_post">are you kidding me t-mac > lebron not to mention iverson</div> Oh, once again that for the detailed support for you argument, I understand your point now. <div class="quote_poster">Quoting igotask8board:</div><div class="quote_post">McGrady and. Choke. should not even be used in the same sentence you... </div> Why not? Is blowing a 3-1 series lead after gauranteeing a victory not a choke? <div class="quote_poster">Quote:</div><div class="quote_post">T-Mac can get better numbers than Bron on any given night, but there isn't room for him to aim for 35 points like the Cavs NEED for Bron to do. All they ask is for him to get his 25/5/6</div> So by your logic when the Magic NEEDED Tracy to put up those stats TMac should have had better stats then LeBron right? Wait, he average 28, 6, 5.5 no where near what LBJ put up last year. Didn't TMac's team NEED him? Oh wait, I forgot, the amazing TMac quit on his team. My bad. <div class="quote_poster">Quote:</div><div class="quote_post">I recall McGrady the one w/ all the badass dunks</div> Because, of course, that is what defines a basketball player <div class="quote_poster">Quote:</div><div class="quote_post">I don't get why T-Mac has so many haters out there. He gave Toronto a good 4 years (I think it was four) and Orland a good 4 Years. Be happy he blessed you with those years and when he moves on don't cry about it.</div> He gave Orlando a good 4 years? Did you forget he friggin quit on his team the last year?! <div class="quote_poster">Quoting Wade Dynasty:</div><div class="quote_post">Tru Those who hate T-Mac are those fans with pride who root for championship teams. And they hate T-Mac because he ain't got no ring. If that's how they judge, they shouldn't be calling Bron the best player until he wins one. Simple as that.</div> Who, in this thread, supported LBJ but dissed TMac for not having a ring? Where are you getting this stuff from? <div class="quote_poster">Quoting youngballer:</div><div class="quote_post">Also on the other side of this ur talking 25/7/7 um pierce has put up those numbers before and hey look at thqat is doing it again (IMO mostunderrated playe in the NBA).</div> When did pierce average 25/7/7? Thus far in his career he has one 7 rpg season and that season he average 4.4 assists. This year, you say? Not even close to the assists, and barely getting the points. <div class="quote_poster">Quote:</div><div class="quote_post">But the difference is Kobe's better at taking over the game, despite the way he does it. Kobe is the most dominating guard in the league, and will be for the next couple years. Not only is Kobe's defense better, but his offense is much better too.</div> First off, I said that Kobe is better than LBJ currently. Secondly Kobe is not better offensivley, but he is a better pure scorer. <div class="quote_poster">Quoting rock4life:</div><div class="quote_post">Simple, Tmac has put up Lebron's numbers before. Lebron's probably a better rebounder, but Tmac is a more effective scorer.</div> He is a more effective scorer? This season TMac is shooting 38.9% from the field. LBJ is shooting 50%. That is efficiency and TMac has never put up LBJ's numbers. <div class="quote_poster">Quoting Esco416:</div><div class="quote_post">YO how is Kobe better than lebron? lets see last season kobe on a team that fails to make playoffs average 27.4 ppg, lebron averages 27,7,7 on a team that fails to make playoff. This year Kobe still on team likely to not get to the playoffs, lebron having best season of career and 90% destined for the playoffs. So how is Kobe better then Lebron? can someone give a good answer</div> Kobe may not the assists or rebounds that LBJ gets but he is a much better defender, more clutch and a better scorer.
Bryce40ww: <div class="quote_poster">Quote:</div><div class="quote_post">Being in the atlantic always helps too. The Cavs play in a division that sent 3teams to the playoffs and one to the finals. I've said it before a I'll say it again, Lebron shouldn't be judged on the playoffs until he has a decent team around him. He may have had Z last year, but I still dont think they were a very good team, and it doesnt help when your coach is fired during the playoff race. Let's not forget that kobe missed the playoffs last year with a similarily mediocre team. This is the year to judge Lebrons ability to make the playoffs. If he fails this year, which he won't, then i'll join virve's lebron hating bandwagon.</div> Here is a list of how Cleveland played each of the Atlantic teams last year: Boston-played 3 times, Won 2, lost 1-Boston had a better record NJ-played 4 times, won 1, lost 3-same record NY-plyed 4 time, won 1, lost 3-better record TO-played 4 times, won 3, lost 1-better record Philly-played 3 times, won 0, lost 3-worse record As you can see, playing Atlntic division teams wasn't really an advantage for them last year. NJ played 4 Atlantic teams last year 4 games each. Philly played 5 Atlantic division teams last year, and played each 4 time except Philly and Boston (both had better records than them) This year,they play 5 Atlantic division teams 4 times each except NY and Toronto who they play 3 times. There's no real advantage of being in the Atlantic, because if you say all the teams are that bad in the division, then you're at a disadvantage being in the division because you can't play yourself. This year, I see NJ and Philly being top teams in the East behind the big 3 once they learn to gel. youngballer: <div class="quote_poster">Quote:</div><div class="quote_post">Tmac+2 years on houston wit Yao = nada in the playoffs LBJ +2 years on Cavs wit Z= nothing in the playoffs (but this year i see him in the second round) </div> Tmac+Yao=7th game of the first round against a good team in the WEST. LBJ+Z=no playoffs in the East That's just an ignorant and biased statement you made. BTW, nobody wants to hear if you play 4 hours of ball a day. I play basketball too. If you're playing 4 hours a day, that's good for you, but don't think you're any smarter or better than anyone else here. And if this is a waste of time then why are you posting? JWohl: <div class="quote_poster">Quote:</div><div class="quote_post">Thanks for elaborating on that for me.</div> Nobody should have to elaborate. Anybody who knows ball would know that TMac is better. Stats aren't everything. TMac plays better D, is better at scoring, and is one of the most (maybe the most) clutch players in the game. So his team dropped 3 in a row to the Pistons (who would be next years champs) it means nothing. Quit bringing up playoffs because Bron hasn't even been able to make them. <div class="quote_poster">Quote:</div><div class="quote_post">Maybe its hard for some one who loves Dwayne Wade enough to have "wade dynasty" as their username and "Shaq & Wade Reign" in their sig. A little bias maybe?</div> And maybe someone with LBJ as their favourite player is also a little biase? Don't be a hypocrite. I would also argue that Dwyane is as good if not better than Lebron. If you like stats so much then you can't argue that Dwyane doesn't have better stats so far this year. <div class="quote_poster">Quote:</div><div class="quote_post">First off, I said that Kobe is better than LBJ currently. Secondly Kobe is not better offensivley, but he is a better pure scorer. </div> Not sure that makes much sense. Kobe is better offensively. He can score whenever he wants, and if he doesn't feel like scoring as much, he can get 10+ assists. <div class="quote_poster">Quote:</div><div class="quote_post">That is efficiency and TMac has never put up LBJ's numbers</div> He did average something like 31,6,6 one year. Plus he can actually play defense. Is that not better? Johnnybrasco: <div class="quote_poster">Quote:</div><div class="quote_post">Last season i believed Kobe was the better player than Lebron, but right now aside from defence how can you say kobe is a better player? He' hasn't made the playoffs without Shaq and his team has a losing record right now, remember were not talking past accomplishments its who's better this season period. </div> Look how Kobe's been playing so far and then ask that question again. Go ahead and look at his averages.
<div class="quote_poster">Quote:</div><div class="quote_post">He is the only player in the discussion that can not only dominate the game every night, but also control the game at the same time.</div> Garnett can't do this? Also calling Iverson one-dimensional is silly. He dishes out assists with the best for them. Nobody was going to argue that AI is better than Lebron anyway. Legler is a fool for bringing him into the argument. I remember many years when the Magic made the playoffs....with only Tmac. Lebron has been on a squad with both Carlos Boozer, and Z, yet couldn't make the playoffs. Either Legler feels that Mcgrady has fallen off, or he just hasn't seen past his last year in Orlando.
<div class="quote_poster">Quoting virve:</div><div class="quote_post">Nobody should have to elaborate. Anybody who knows ball would know that TMac is better.</div> All I was saying is that "anybody who knows ball" should easily be able to justify an argument if they think TMac is so clearly better than LBJ. People just stated he was better with not justification. <div class="quote_poster">Quote:</div><div class="quote_post">TMac.... is better at scoring</div> really? Last season he averaged less points per game, shot a lower FG% and a lower 3pt. %, and shot a lower FT%. How is he a better scorer? <div class="quote_poster">Quote:</div><div class="quote_post">So his team dropped 3 in a row to the Pistons (who would be next years champs) it means nothing.</div> It means nothing? It means he choked. He was already talking about the next round and couldn't carry his team to victory once in 3 games. <div class="quote_poster">Quote:</div><div class="quote_post">Quit bringing up playoffs because Bron hasn't even been able to make them.</div> That is completely off topic. I brought up the playoffs as an example of TMac not being clutch. <div class="quote_poster">Quote:</div><div class="quote_post">And maybe someone with LBJ as their favourite player is also a little biase? Don't be a hypocrite. I would also argue that Dwyane is as good if not better than Lebron. If you like stats so much then you can't argue that Dwyane doesn't have better stats so far this year.</div> My opinion could very well be titled by my rooting for LBJ but I am a fan of LBJ, not infatuated with him as Wade Dynasty is with Dwayne. Speaking of stats, Wade has more rebounds and assists this year, true. He also has more turnovers, fouls, is shooting much lower percentages from the field, from the line and from 3. Wade also lags behind LBJ in efficiency rating and efficiency per-48 minutes. <div class="quote_poster">Quote:</div><div class="quote_post"> Not sure that makes much sense. Kobe is better offensively. He can score whenever he wants, and if he doesn't feel like scoring as much, he can get 10+ assists.</div> How does that not make much sense? Kobe is better at one specific part of offense, scoring. His overall offensive game, including passing is not as good as LeBrons because LBJ is a much better passer. And how often does Kobe get 10 assists? In the first 12 games this season he hasn't gotten even 8 assists once.
JWohl is a man who gets it... thank god theres another person that can see through T-Macs background dunks at the All Star Game to see an uninspired, selfish basketball player.
^^First of all this thread is not about "Who is the least selfish player in the NBA". Being selfish might affect how good a team is, but a player will be either good or bad based on ability. <div class="quote_poster">Quoting FedEx227:</div><div class="quote_post">T-Macs Line Game 7: 27 points on 10-26 shooting and again a team high 4 turnovers. Say what you want, but the fact is the great players don't let their teams slip in the playoffs.</div> The only reason that Tmac gets a lot of turnovers is because he CHOOSES to handle the ball a lot. Probably a carry over from having to play with point guards like Tyron Lue and Darell Armstrong in Orlando. Plenty of great players have slipped in the playoffs. Kevin Garnett against the Lakers. Shaq when he was in Orlando. Gary Payton when the Sonics were upset by the 8th seeded Nuggets. So don't give me that crap saying the great players don't slip up. Reggie Miller lost plenty of playoff series that he could have won, Stockton and Malone as well. Tmac is better than Lebron, as a GM I would take him every day of the week.
