JWohl You don't get it. I have clearly said that T-Mac or Kove is the best player. If I am so infatuated like you say I am with Wade, I would have said Wade is the best player...which is what you are doing right now. Rooting for LBJ and saying he's the best player
This argument has gone nowhere. Let just agree to disagree OKAY! Top 5 guards in no specific order (yes T-Mac is still a SG, just playing D against SF's, he still has the same damn role he did as a SG): James, Wade, AI, T-Mac, and Kobe. And then Ray Allen! ................................................................................ .... .............................................................. .................................... Damn where's Pacman when you need him? SCREW THIS!!! Lets keep arguing. <div class="quote_poster">Quoting FedEx227:</div><div class="quote_post">2003 Eastern Conference Playoffs Game One Magic 99, Pistons 94 Game Two Pistons 89, Magic 77 Game Three Magic 89, Pistons 80 Game Four Magic 100, Pistons 92 *After Game Four, T-Mac said it felt great to finally get past the first round of the playoffs, guess he forgot you have to win 4* Game Five Pistons 98, Magic 67 Game Six Pistons 103, Magic 88 Game Seven Pistons 108, Magic 93 T-Macs Line Game 7: 21 points on 7-24 shooting and a team-high 4 turnovers. 2005 Western Conference Playoffs Game One Rockets 98, Mavs 86 Game Two Rockets 113, Mavs 11 Game Three Mavs 106, Rockets 102 Game Four Mavs 97, Rockets 93 Game Five Mavs 103, Rockets 100 Game Six Rockets 101, Mavs 83 Game Seven Mavs 116, Rockets 76 T-Macs Line Game 7: 27 points on 10-26 shooting and again a team high 4 turnovers. Say what you want, but the fact is the great players don't let their teams slip in the playoffs. Jordan, Bird, Magic, Isiah, Russell, Duncan, Reggie, Iverson do not let 3-1 playoff leads go to waste. T-Mac is a choker plain and simple, he is a great scorer probably the best in the league, one of the best playmakers no way I can argue that, but when it comes to getting it done when its needed most, when it comes to making your teamates better, T-Mac is not your guy. Get off that 13 points in 35 seconds, that doesn't make him a great clutch player. Tony Delk dropped 50 in a game before, does that make him a great scorer?</div> http://www.nba.com/games/20050507/HOUDAL/boxscore.html Wow you are good at taking away the credit someone deserves. You know we had that series if it weren't for bad officiating, but I am not going to cry about it, and no one respond to this comment, I do not want to go way off topic. McGrady not only shut down Nowitzki that game, but he sat out the whole fourth quarter. Look at his numbers: 36 Minutes 27 points, 7 Rebounds, 7 Assists. In 3 quarters he did better than his season average. You call that choking? HELLLLLLLLLL NO! The Rockets players were just standing around watching Yao and T-Mac doing all the damn work. Yao had 43 minutes with 33, then T-Mac had 36 minutes with 27. After that its Wesley 7, James 4, Barry 2, and Padgett 3. THATS IT. Yet T-Mac still gets 7 assists. Yea lets blame the choke artist. He was nowhere to be found. WHERE THE HELL WAS THE REST OF THE TEAM? Well we didn't even have a PF since Howard was injured, Yet T-Mac stepped up and guarded Dirk. Dallas had 4-5 fresh legs on him in each game. You can't contain T-Mac like you can Lebron. Try watching a Rockets game. T-Mac is 4th quarter King. He gets the points when they need him to. I recall don't recall him missing one game winning/tieng shot (except the game 5 Dallas one, but that wasn't even a 3 because his foot was on the line and he had to turn around and jack it up and rim off with less then 2 seconds left). SO YEA WHAT ELSE DO YOU HAVE TO SAY? Bring up Toronto, when James was still in high school. I do know T-Mac got them to be 3-1, and I don't know much else because I was more into the west at that time. T-Mac > Lebron AI > Lebron Kobe > Lebron Wade and Lebron are greaaaat players. I do like Wade a lot, but I can say James is slightly better. I can say Wade is better for getting to the playoffs (w/ and w/o Shaq) and playing GREAT. He can score when his team really needs it. James has his moments, but overall he isn't as legit as Wade when you need the points down the stretch. I place James as 7th as of now, right after Ray Allen. -------------------------------------EDIT------------------------------- WOW T-Mac WAS AMAZING AGAIST DETROIT IN THE 03 Finals, they were the 8th seed and Detroit was 1st. OMFG you give T-Mac the "choke artist" NO CREDIT AT ALL. He was amazing! Did you see these numbers? http://www.nba.com/playoffs2003/round1_east1.html I don't think he "choked" because NO 8th seeded team has EVER beat a 1st round team (as far as I am concerned). WOW T-Mac was getting 45+ point games. He had so many steals one game, averaged good reboudns, WOW YOU ARE WRONG. How can you say he is not better than Lebron. He carried Orlando to the playoffs and even scored all the points. No one else played great like T-Mac (on Orlando). Wow.
I honestly just laughed out loud when I heard one person say Tracy McGrady is better than LeBron James, then I laughed even harder when people actually started to defend him. Ahhhh kids these days.
You're 16 man, same age as me, so don't start saying "kids these day". Personally I think TMac is better, and many knowleadgeable fans and experts would probably agree. So you think Lebron is better. Good for you, but don't think you're any smarter than people who think TMac is better.
Darell Armstrong was actually a very good PG in Orlando, and out of all the Top perimeter players [Kobe, Tmac, Lebro, Wade etc], Tmac is actually one of the lowest in terms of TPG. He's never averaged up to 3 TPG and is noramlly in the 2.6 range which is great for a player putting up 25-6-5 on the regular. When comparing with Kobe and Tmac, Lebron's main downfall is defense, this year he's improved, but still isn't good. He hasn't guarded many good perimeter players yet and the fairly good ones he guarded [Artest and Wally] scored well on him. Offensively he's not as dynamic as them yet, but he's the most efficient scorer of all, and a very good scorer. Now some things have to be taken into consideration, like Tmac's percentages are affected by the slow pace and offense that JVG runs. On a normal offense his PPG would be about 27 PPG, and his shooting 45-46% FG and about 36-37% 3PT. On a normal offense with a good team, he'd probably shoot about 46-47% and 38% 3PT. Lebron has already shot 47%, and this season is shooting 50%, and is proving that he's just as good a scorer, maybe even better. I'd still give a slight edge to Kobe on him in the ability department. While Kobe is not a player I'd want on my team, and is taking about 30 shots a game now, Kobe can change games on both ends of the floor while Lebron can't. Kobe is a Top perimter defender while Lebron is below average. Tmac has a slight, but even smaller edge, but that's just based on the fact that Lebron still has to learn to change games on defense. He's getting up there to match them though. When comparing to Wade, it's also an interesting situation. While Wade is not heralded for his passing ability, he's equally as effective in the passing area. This season without Shaq, injuries to J-Will and Posey in some games, and an inferior team in comparison to Lebron, Wade's percentages are down. When you look at passing though, your assists numbers are only as good as how much you get the ball to be a playmaker, but these guys all get the ball. If you look at when J-Will was out, Wade was averaging about 8-9 APG as the SG since Payton handled the ball less than J-Will. Even with that, Wade's assists numbers were actually better than Lebron's last season. LJ averaged 7.2 in 42.4 MPG, the 7 APG makes it look better, but in 42 MPG, Wade last season actually averaged more per minute with 6.8 in 38.6 MPG. If you look at their assists PER 40 mins through their career: <u>Lebron | Wade</u> <font color=""black""><font color=""Navy"">03-04:</font></font> 6.0 | 5.1 <font color=""navy"">04-05:</font> 6.8 | 7.0 <font color=""navy"">05-06:</font> 4.3 | 7.2 While Lebron is a more skilled passer, throws more "fancy" passes, is a better post up passer [since he's a lot taller], and has better vision, Wade is the much superior drive and dish passer and overall as effective with his passing. Wade this year has an assists to bad pass ratio of 5.1 to 1 and Lebron 3.2 to 1. Last year Wade had 3.7 to 1, and Lebron 4.0 to 1, so he's been more effective in his passing even. This year though Lebron is quite low, he should be at least at 5 APG. Lebron is the better rebounder overall, though not so far this season, but is on the normal. Position and height wise though, they're about equal rebounders. They're about equal passer, while Lebron will give you the highlight pass, Wade is just as effective a passer, and turns the ball over less while passing [this season and about equal last season]. Lebron is the better scorer and shooter, he shoots a higher percentage from everywhere, and also commits less scoring related [offensive fouls and travels] turnovers offensively. Wade is the better penetrator, and this does contribute to his 0.7 more turnovers a game in that he turns the ball over on offensive fouls too, which is also why he commits more FPG. Wade is also the better defender, he's a good overall defender, above average on the ball, and a great help defender for a guard with both stealing and blocking. His defense also causes him to commit more fouls, which I don't consider a downfall as long as he's not foul prone [which he isn't at only 2.9 a game], and he's only commiting 0.4 more than Lebron. Overall right now Wade is still as good a player as Lebron. Again with Lebron, defense is a changing factor, but with Wade he's also rebounding and passing better, but isn't scoring as well. Lebron should be the better player in the future though, but I'd like a sharper increase in the defense, I'm not fond of the slow and steady.
<div class="quote_poster">Quoting virve119:</div><div class="quote_post">You're 16 man, same age as me, so don't start saying "kids these day". Personally I think TMac is better, and many knowleadgeable fans and experts would probably agree. So you think Lebron is better. Good for you, but don't think you're any smarter than people who think TMac is better.</div> 1. I don't like LeBron James at all. In fact, I actually despise the guy. However, he's a much better player than Tracy McGrady hands down. 2. I'm not going to be nice and say that I'm not smarter than you, but that's an argument for a different day.
bron is probably more efficient but when tmac or kobe get hot they are literally impossible to stop. when those 2 are feeling it they are prolly next to impossible to guard. LBJ though is more consistently great, he might not get hot and shoot like some crazy percentage for one quarter (which he hs done) but he will stay consistent, tamc and kobe are gunners and have to shoot a ton to score a ton, LBJ doesnt shoot as much and also doesnt score as much, but he is also more efficient creating less turnovers. while kobe is shooting an OK 42% and tracy is shooting a pretty ugly .395 LBJ is shooting about 49% so the question to be asked is if bron was shooting as much as kobe and tmac would he be scoring as much and would he be as efficient as he is now, id say no but i mean i think hes smarter for shooting less kobe can have his 34ppg on like 400 shots(12.5fgm-29.4fga), but i think bron is smarter on his 28 ppg (9.5fgm-20fga) while tmac is shooting such a low percentage and scoring less,(granted hes been injured) idk how u could ever call him more efficient than LBJ the bottom line is that TMAC and Kobe are going to either torch the other team or their chances of winning by being HUGE gunners, but LBJ is going to be more efficient and always keep his team a chance to win the game by doing his part and then some. I personally would rather have LeBron but idk what u guys would rather take outta those numbers
2005-06 SCORING LEADERS : Points Per Game PLAYER NAME, TEAM NAME GP MPG PTS FGM-FGA FG% 3PM-3PA 3P% FTM-FTA FT% 1 Allen Iverson , PHI 16 44.2 34.0 11.4-25.3 .452 1.1-3.5 .304 10.1-12.4 .809 2 Kobe Bryant , LAL 13 41.5 33.5 12.5-29.4 .424 .8-3.0 .256 7.8-9.3 .835 3 LeBron James , CLE 14 39.9 28.4 9.8-20.0 .489 1.4-4.1 .351 7.4-9.0 .817 4 Gilbert Arenas , WAS 14 40.4 26.6 8.6-20.3 .423 2.8-7.1 .390 6.6-8.2 .809 5 Michael Redd , MIL 12 37.2 25.9 8.3-18.8 .444 2.2-4.1 .531 7.1-8.7 .817 6 Paul Pierce , BOS 14 38.8 25.8 8.9-18.2 .490 1.2-3.0 .405 6.7-8.4 .797 7 Dwyane Wade , MIA 15 38.5 25.1 8.9-20.1 .440 .1-1.5 .091 7.3-9.8 .741 8 Dirk Nowitzki , DAL 14 37.9 25.1 8.8-19.6 .447 2.2-4.9 .456 5.3-6.1 .871 9 Ray Allen , SEA 14 39.0 24.1 8.1-18.6 .438 2.9-8.5 .336 4.9-5.6 .885 10 Elton Brand , DET-LAC 15 39.1 23.7 9.0-16.1 .560 .0-.0 .000 5.7-7.9 .723 11 Jason Richardson , GSW 17 38.5 22.5 8.5-18.8 .450 1.8-5.9 .310 3.8-5.5 .681 12 Corey Maggette , LAC 11 34.0 22.3 6.8-14.4 .475 .9-2.5 .370 7.7-8.6 .895 13 Kevin Garnett , MIN 13 38.8 22.2 8.9-15.9 .560 .1-.4 .200 4.3-5.9 .727 14 Tracy McGrady , HOU 7 33.3 22.1 7.3-18.4 .395 1.4-4.1 .345 6.1-7.4 .827 15 Ricky Davis , BOS 14 42.6 22.0 8.8-18.4 .477 .9-2.7 .342 3.5-4.7 .742 16 Rashard Lewis , SEA 14 37.7 21.9 7.6-16.0 .473 2.1-5.6 .380 4.6-5.4 .853 17 Jermaine O'Neal , IND 14 36.0 21.5 7.9-16.8 .472 .0-.1 .000 5.6-7.7 .731 18 Tim Duncan , SAS 14 34.8 21.3 8.4-15.9 .529 .1-.2 .333 4.4-5.6 .782 19 Richard Hamilton , DET 13 35.7 21.2 8.7-16.7 .521 .8-1.5 .526 3.1-3.5 .870 20 Antawn Jamison , WAS 14 38.4 21.1 8.1-18.7 .435 1.4-3.8 .377 3.4-4.7 .727
2005-06 SCORING LEADERS : Points Per Game PLAYER NAME, TEAM NAME GP MPG PTS FGM-FGA FG% 3PM-3PA 3P% FTM-FTA FT% 1 Allen Iverson , PHI 16 44.2 34.0 11.4-25.3 .452 1.1-3.5 .304 10.1-12.4 .809 2 Kobe Bryant , LAL 13 41.5 33.5 12.5-29.4 .424 .8-3.0 .256 7.8-9.3 .835 3 LeBron James , CLE 14 39.9 28.4 9.8-20.0 .489 1.4-4.1 .351 7.4-9.0 .817 4 Gilbert Arenas , WAS 14 40.4 26.6 8.6-20.3 .423 2.8-7.1 .390 6.6-8.2 .809 5 Michael Redd , MIL 12 37.2 25.9 8.3-18.8 .444 2.2-4.1 .531 7.1-8.7 .817 6 Paul Pierce , BOS 14 38.8 25.8 8.9-18.2 .490 1.2-3.0 .405 6.7-8.4 .797 7 Dwyane Wade , MIA 15 38.5 25.1 8.9-20.1 .440 .1-1.5 .091 7.3-9.8 .741 8 Dirk Nowitzki , DAL 14 37.9 25.1 8.8-19.6 .447 2.2-4.9 .456 5.3-6.1 .871 9 Ray Allen , SEA 14 39.0 24.1 8.1-18.6 .438 2.9-8.5 .336 4.9-5.6 .885 10 Elton Brand , DET-LAC 15 39.1 23.7 9.0-16.1 .560 .0-.0 .000 5.7-7.9 .723 11 Jason Richardson , GSW 17 38.5 22.5 8.5-18.8 .450 1.8-5.9 .310 3.8-5.5 .681 12 Corey Maggette , LAC 11 34.0 22.3 6.8-14.4 .475 .9-2.5 .370 7.7-8.6 .895 13 Kevin Garnett , MIN 13 38.8 22.2 8.9-15.9 .560 .1-.4 .200 4.3-5.9 .727 14 Tracy McGrady , HOU 7 33.3 22.1 7.3-18.4 .395 1.4-4.1 .345 6.1-7.4 .827 15 Ricky Davis , BOS 14 42.6 22.0 8.8-18.4 .477 .9-2.7 .342 3.5-4.7 .742 16 Rashard Lewis , SEA 14 37.7 21.9 7.6-16.0 .473 2.1-5.6 .380 4.6-5.4 .853 17 Jermaine O'Neal , IND 14 36.0 21.5 7.9-16.8 .472 .0-.1 .000 5.6-7.7 .731 18 Tim Duncan , SAS 14 34.8 21.3 8.4-15.9 .529 .1-.2 .333 4.4-5.6 .782 19 Richard Hamilton , DET 13 35.7 21.2 8.7-16.7 .521 .8-1.5 .526 3.1-3.5 .870 20 Antawn Jamison , WAS 14 38.4 21.1 8.1-18.7 .435 1.4-3.8 .377 3.4-4.7 .727
J wohl makes some great points for one obviously you should elaborate if Tmac is better and LBJ is way more efficient at scoring, and virve you said a great word he Had a season where he had 31/6/6 this year 22/8/4 on under 40% shooting AND he also brings up a nice quote by virve "so sut if they dropped three in a row" well, thats usually not a good thing, unless i have it backwards, (im pretty sure winning is the point of the game) also JWohl says that kobe hasnt gotten as much as eight assists another good point (at least in the first game)
You do know that Tmac has been injured this season? His numbers this season so far mean squat, and when comparing to other guys you have to take note of the team he's playing on which slows the pace down. A slower pace means less shots and less fastbreaks oppurtunities which will give less PPG, and likely a lower FG% [depending on how good your teammates are].
Oh okay, in a previous post, I'm just saying that because you put his numbers in, and right now those numbers really mean nothing.
i just don't get it when people say t-mac has to get alot of shot for him to get alot of points.... lebron has 307 field goal atempts in 15 games... t-mac has 129 field goal in 7 games.... lebron played more games than t-mac by almost 2 times so you multiply 129 by two you get 258... if you say that t-mac has lot of good players around him that can shoot is wrong because right now most of the players can't shoot.... and lebron has tons of good players that can shoot: damon jones, larry huges,
<div class="quote_poster">Quoting tr@cy&ya0:</div><div class="quote_post">i just don't get it when people say t-mac has to get alot of shot for him to get alot of points.... lebron has 307 field goal atempts in 15 games... t-mac has 129 field goal in 7 games.... lebron played more games than t-mac by almost 2 times so you multiply 129 by two you get 258... if you say that t-mac has lot of good players around him that can shoot is wrong because right now most of the players can't shoot.... and lebron has tons of good players that can shoot: damon jones, larry huges,</div> LeBron is a more efficient scorer. He gets to the line and shoots a higher percentage from the field. You're not taking into account that LeBron is also scoring more points per game.
<div class="quote_poster">Quoting tr@cy&ya0:</div><div class="quote_post">i just don't get it when people say t-mac has to get alot of shot for him to get alot of points.... lebron has 307 field goal atempts in 15 games... t-mac has 129 field goal in 7 games.... lebron played more games than t-mac by almost 2 times so you multiply 129 by two you get 258... if you say that t-mac has lot of good players around him that can shoot is wrong because right now most of the players can't shoot.... and lebron has tons of good players that can shoot: damon jones, larry huges,</div> Kind of a valid point, except Lebron is also playing about 40mpg while Tmac is playing 35. Although when healthy I would still take Tmac. Are you guys forgetting that the guy who wrote this article (Legler) is not exactly a Tmac fan?
i might've said kobe if he wasnt an asshole and didnt force out shaq, or maybe if he didnt rape someone, or if he didnt look like a jackass and thinks hes so good... watch the 1997 dunk contest and see how "cool" and good he is doing those steak and potatoes dunks and wearing the warm up jersey like MJ did... aside from that stuff, if youre a "stat whore" he is worse than everyone else that was names in the article: shaq and wade are better becaude they can get all those stats with the supporting cast they have... how dous wade get 6 and a half rebounds at SG i really dont know especially with the rebound happy team he has... with the supporting cast kobe has, if wade were in his position im sure hed be getting 35 points a game and 9 rebs and 6 or 7 assists T-Mac i wont even start on him hes the best in the NBA, KG is getting older and all the stat whores know what im talking about when i say hes not the same this year, and how is allen iverson not better than lebron? hes jacking up his FG% and getting 34+ppg and 8 assists and 3 and a half rebs 2 steals, cutting down on the turnovers to, so im gonna say T-Mac and AI for best players in the NBA
Theres players that put up numbers. (LeBron) Theres players that win championships. (Horry) And theres some that do both. (Duncan) Next time somebody wants to compare this kid to Duncan. Add something other than popularity and your personal statistics. With that said. LJ is the best young talent there is, yes.
