<div class="quote_poster">Quoting dunksworth:</div><div class="quote_post">Yah, just because someone struggles doesn't mean he can't turn out to be a good player, but I was referring to you stating that Graham was an excellent pick considering the circumstances. Judging from his performance so far in the season, there's nothing that would justify saying something like that..... especially considering the fact that he was picked ahead of someone like Granger, a guys who the majority felt was the better prospect during the draft and has shown that when given the minutes, he can produce at the nba level. And about Graham's defense, if you pay attention, you'll notice that he usually struggles to stay in front of his man. He has the strength, but he lacks the lateral quicks to be the kind of lockdown defender of the Artest/Bowen mold. But again, I won't say he's hopeless though..... it's only been a few games into his rookie season and he's probably having difficulties making the transition from PF in college to SF in the nba..... but I still would layoff on saying that he is was an excellent pick.</div> Many, many NBA players had horrendous rookie campaigns. Graham was an excellent pick because he provides the toughness that we lack. Granger has had a history of knee problems. So far, no. But like I said, you can't judge a player in 1 or 2 seasons, you only can once he grows out of his rookie contract, or rather if he does. Honestly, it doesn't matter where people project him. And I don't see how 2 and 2 in 12 minutes is so much better then Graham. Honestly, I haven't been paying much attention to his defense, I'll look at it more closely next time. A lot of kids didn't just come into the NBA and start locking down players like Iggy, most of them just developed their defensive game and awareness. I don't see why he is so different. It was a litter trigger happy of me to praise Graham so quickly, however I do believe that he was the best pick we could have made that was still on the board. Because he has the work ethic to improve, and the toughness. It is definately a welcomed change from Vince.
...ok i am not a bandwagoner...i hate human ipod, and i hate rapist too All i am saying is that he should be fired because he can't grasp the timing correctly. eg) he should have traded vince when he started whining, and that he signed rafer to a long contract (money per is not good, but not horrible compared to other ones given around the league...but the length is just messed up). I haven't seen rudy play, therefore i can't really judge whether he is good or not...but i know for sure that his jersey will sell lots in toronto. (if he turns out to be an allstar, i suggest toronto can change to a rainbow coloured jersey for marketing purposes) Anyways, in my previous posts (the very very long one), i did suggest a coaching replacement in Musselman, and that rebuilding teams should follow the trend of bobcats' style of management. I watched some of the games on tv recently on the road trip, and white bateer is actually playing OK...but still lightyears away from what you call "awesome". I don't think he will do much in the league, i just hope he can contribute 10 pts 5 rebounds on nightly basis before fouling out, then i would say he has done his job. Suggestion for the upcoming trade/draft..whichever comes available. Get a blocker and/or inside scoring threat+one all around player then toronto will be a much better team and we wouldn't have this thread anymore i guess
You're all idiots Its a rebuilding phase. Guess what teams do during a rebuilding phase? They loose. If they were good during a rebuilding phase..why rebuild? This team is incredibly young, with amazing young talented players that are getting tons of valuable minutes so that they can develop a few years from now. Cap wise we're looking strong a few years from now. You people dont understand..before Babs got here we were a mess, a real mess! We werent winning games now, we didnt have as much young talent, we didnt have the flexibility we do now, we had a much higher payroll. There was no clearing up ahead as far as the cap goes we were overloaded with horrible contracts. Babs has gave us an opportunity to be good a few years from now, IF we can keep the team together. What you morons dont understand is that your bitching and bitching is hurting that chance. Typical Toronto fans crying when you loose a few games. Not wanting to be bad, not wanting to be mediocre. Demanding to be good at all times. Well i'm sorry that cant happen, when a team falls apart you have to rebuild, you have to become bad to be good. Especially since Toronto as the lone Canadian team has a hard time attracting Free Agents. Go young or go home! And how do you get the best young talent? 1) Trade currently good players + veterans for picks cap relief (he did) 2) Get the best coach possible to teach work ethic and how to be a man, even if he's not the most experienced or "best" coach out there(its the future that matters, not today) (he did) 3) Get your lottery pick(s) and draft wisely (he did) 4) Play the young guys (they are) 5) Pick up veterans for their teaching on and off court (still have to do) Stop moaning. If you cant hack loosing during a rebuilding process go hop on another teams bandwagon please. FFS
<div class="quote_poster">Quoting dunksworth:</div><div class="quote_post">Yah, just because someone struggles doesn't mean he can't turn out to be a good player, but I was referring to you stating that Graham was an excellent pick considering the circumstances. Judging from his performance so far in the season, there's nothing that would justify saying something like that..... especially considering the fact that he was picked ahead of someone like Granger, a guys who the majority felt was the better prospect during the draft and has shown that when given the minutes, he can produce at the nba level. And about Graham's defense, if you pay attention, you'll notice that he usually struggles to stay in front of his man. He has the strength, but he lacks the lateral quicks to be the kind of lockdown defender of the Artest/Bowen mold. But again, I won't say he's hopeless though..... it's only been a few games into his rookie season and he's probably having difficulties making the transition from PF in college to SF in the nba..... but I still would layoff on saying that he is was an excellent pick.</div> Granger has done nothing more than Joey at this point so i dont know what the hell you are talking about. Also Graham had one of the best lateral quickness scores at the combine, if he's struggling to defend (and i havent noticed him being a poor defender at all) its not because of athleticism or build, he can improve. And dont even get me started on the plethora of people who cried and cried when Charlie V was picked. How's that looking now? Please some of you (not all) THINK you know what you're talking about..but there's a reason you're serving fries, washing cars or sitting behind a desk at an ad agency instead of managing a professional sports team.
<div class="quote_poster">Quoting 02civic:</div><div class="quote_post">Its a rebuilding phase. Guess what teams do during a rebuilding phase? They loose. If they were good during a rebuilding phase..why rebuild? This team is incredibly young, with amazing young talented players that are getting tons of valuable minutes so that they can develop a few years from now. Cap wise we're looking strong a few years from now. You people dont understand..before Babs got here we were a mess, a real mess! We werent winning games now, we didnt have as much young talent, we didnt have the flexibility we do now, we had a much higher payroll. There was no clearing up ahead as far as the cap goes we were overloaded with horrible contracts. Babs has gave us an opportunity to be good a few years from now, IF we can keep the team together. What you morons dont understand is that your bitching and bitching is hurting that chance. Typical Toronto fans crying when you loose a few games. Not wanting to be bad, not wanting to be mediocre. Demanding to be good at all times. Well i'm sorry that cant happen, when a team falls apart you have to rebuild, you have to become bad to be good. Especially since Toronto as the lone Canadian team has a hard time attracting Free Agents. Go young or go home! And how do you get the best young talent? 1) Trade currently good players + veterans for picks cap relief (he did) 2) Get the best coach possible to teach work ethic and how to be a man, even if he's not the most experienced or "best" coach out there(its the future that matters, not today) (he did) 3) Get your lottery pick(s) and draft wisely (he did) 4) Play the young guys (they are) 5) Pick up veterans for their teaching on and off court (still have to do) Stop moaning. If you cant hack loosing during a rebuilding process go hop on another teams bandwagon please. FFS</div> Co-sign. To me the Barneys are still a 20+ win team this year. I think that their actually ahead of plan when you look at the early body of work being supplied by Calderon and Villenueva. Graham is struggling a little more than I thought he would, he looks a little wide-eyed right now. Once he figures it out, I think he'll be solid, but not spectacular. Danny Granger may have been a more versatile pick, but who knows, because he isn't playing and is buried on the Pacers' bench The Barneys will lose the two pieces of driftwood named Williams this year. Possibly, they will also lose Mike James. Loren Woods = done as well. Right there, you already start seeing cap relief. Was Alston a bad move? Sure, but that you get James playing productively for a year seems to mitigate and completely minimize that signing to where it is now a moot point. I'm not ready to completely give up on Araujo -- he is beginning to show flashes that he is finally understanding his role and I think the logic of choosing him isn't completely flawed. VC is showing signs of slumping back into his comfort zone in Jersey and as a result we still get another First-rounder for a guy who NEVER was going to accept the mantle as "The Man". You saw it here, you are seeing it in the swamp lands I think moving into the next draft you are looking to get another wing guy. If it's Mr Gay, then fine. I think your focus is on a 2 or a 3, maybe a big if there is someone of quality out there. Whatever you can't draft, you look to free agency to provide The Raptors where never known for having a European presence in the Grunfeld years. They do now. The Raptors always had cap issues under GG. Those are finally clearing up. The Barneys always had malcontents and drama. Those types of players and problems are also easing out. The team is generally competitive and clearly plays for their coach -- that hasn't happened since the early Butch Carter days. I see the plan much more clearly this year and it isn't a bad one -- I say run with it Have fun.............
<div class="quote_poster">Quoting 02civic:</div><div class="quote_post">Granger has done nothing more than Joey at this point so i dont know what the hell you are talking about. Also Graham had one of the best lateral quickness scores at the combine, if he's struggling to defend (and i havent noticed him being a poor defender at all) its not because of athleticism or build, he can improve. And dont even get me started on the plethora of people who cried and cried when Charlie V was picked. How's that looking now? Please some of you (not all) THINK you know what you're talking about..but there's a reason you're serving fries, washing cars or sitting behind a desk at an ad agency instead of managing a professional sports team.</div> If you take a poll around the league and asked them who they'd rather have, Granger or Graham, I'm pretty sure the majority would say Granger.... The only real concern people have w/ Granger is his injury problem, which isn't any worse than Graham's tendinitis in the knees. And yes, his defense hasn't been all that it's cracked up to be so far (even Mitchell called him out on it)... but again, I wouldn't be overly concerned about it at this point. Anyways, the point I was making is that we should hold off on praising Babcock for choosing Graham in the draft, especially considering the fact that Grahams been struggling so far...... CV, Ukic, and the signing of Calderon were great moves imo, but there's still legimate questions regarding his decision to go w/ Graham over Granger or maybe even Green (although personally, I wouldn't want to risk taking him).... And for the record, I'm not a Babcock hater... In fact, I think he's done an okay job so far even considering his blunders.... I was just nitpicking at rafy stating that Graham was an "excellent" pick, that's all.....
<div class="quote_poster">Quoting 02civic:</div><div class="quote_post">Its a rebuilding phase. Guess what teams do during a rebuilding phase? They loose. If they were good during a rebuilding phase..why rebuild? This team is incredibly young, with amazing young talented players that are getting tons of valuable minutes so that they can develop a few years from now. Cap wise we're looking strong a few years from now. You people dont understand..before Babs got here we were a mess, a real mess! We werent winning games now, we didnt have as much young talent, we didnt have the flexibility we do now, we had a much higher payroll. There was no clearing up ahead as far as the cap goes we were overloaded with horrible contracts. Babs has gave us an opportunity to be good a few years from now, IF we can keep the team together. What you morons dont understand is that your bitching and bitching is hurting that chance. Typical Toronto fans crying when you loose a few games. Not wanting to be bad, not wanting to be mediocre. Demanding to be good at all times. Well i'm sorry that cant happen, when a team falls apart you have to rebuild, you have to become bad to be good. Especially since Toronto as the lone Canadian team has a hard time attracting Free Agents. Go young or go home! And how do you get the best young talent? 1) Trade currently good players + veterans for picks cap relief (he did) 2) Get the best coach possible to teach work ethic and how to be a man, even if he's not the most experienced or "best" coach out there(its the future that matters, not today) (he did) 3) Get your lottery pick(s) and draft wisely (he did) 4) Play the young guys (they are) 5) Pick up veterans for their teaching on and off court (still have to do) Stop moaning. If you cant hack loosing during a rebuilding process go hop on another teams bandwagon please. FFS</div> wow...it looks like you don't even allow people to criticize the team even one bit, even if they deserve it huh? Once somebody says negative things, he/she suddenly become idiots What makes of rafy then? he doesn't even spell "then" correctly it should be THAN not then anyways, all i think is that the GM could have done better, and i repeat, i mentioned about the bobcats and how they rebuild they are still losing as of now, but they are being competitive, and they have lots of money to spend for the next 2-3 years. And i still think Musselman is better than mitchell...afterall, musselman stayed with hubie for a while, and as a rebuilding team, i think toronto should take a look at the "10 men rotation" system (bosh is exception) and let people have 20-25 min playing time Why is that good? 1. you get to play 20-25 min, the rookies will make the most out of their time (at least i hope so), the team can look at their potential more clearly while not overexposing them to the opponents 2. Showcase your trade assets...you got to play them in order to have teams interested in them, or at least shoot up their values a bit 3. Unselfish basketball, which is what young guys need to learn 4. you get to see more combinations of players, and you will get an idea of what line up is suitable for what situation etc etc etc then after all that, you adjust the player's time accordingly (eg. rose sucks, he plays 5 min less, while you give that extra 5 min to charlie etc etc)
<div class="quote_poster">Quoting hohoyoyoyo:</div><div class="quote_post">wow...it looks like you don't even allow people to criticize the team even one bit, even if they deserve it huh? Once somebody says negative things, he/she suddenly become idiots</div> Not at all. People can voice their opinion and i listen to it. But when people claim "such and sucha move was bad this guy should get fired" I'm gunna set them straight. What makes some of these people idiots isnt that the say negetive things about Babcock, Mitchell or the Raptors in general, its that no matter what was happening they'd still have negetive things to say. They all bitched about CV being drafted..but they've shut up now huh? And if CV didnt pan out they'd be claiming "i told you so". So what Graham hasnt been stellar so far, but i truly dont care about who most of the league would want..the Raptors would and do benefit from Grahams style of play (physical, inside) than Grangers (more finesse) regardless of who is more skilled. And I still dont think much of people saying Granger is better because so far they're both about equal, maybe with Graham getting the edge. When Granger produces and Graham fails, claim superiority then, not before. <div class="quote_poster">Quoting hohoyoyoyo:</div><div class="quote_post"> anyways, all i think is that the GM could have done better, and i repeat, i mentioned about the bobcats and how they rebuild they are still losing as of now, but they are being competitive, and they have lots of money to spend for the next 2-3 years.</div> Of course you think the GM could of done better...you have the luxury of being able to look at how those choices panned out. At the time i could make an arguement for Araujo. Forget the fact that he might be a bust, many players have went from stud to dud and it does NOT make the GM an idiot or worthy of firing. Babcock took a team that was sub-average with a HORRIBLE contract situation and only 1 young talented player and turned it in to a bad team with a fairly good contract situation and many young talented players. If i described two teams each with that description..which one would you pick as having the best future. GG 2nd) and i'm trying not to go all caps here: The bobcats rebuilt? THEY'RE AN EXPANSION TEAM! They started from scratch! Thats pretty easy to improve on man! The Raps are trying to go back to scratch, but thats hard when you start talking about contracts. The Raptors and Bobcats are both loosing, the Bobcats have a brighter future salary cap wise BUT the Raps arent doing to bad either. PLUS, the Raps have just as much, if not more, young talent than the Bobcats. My opinion Bosh is/will be better than Okafar CV is/will be better than May Calderon and Felton arent a world apart overall Ukic too I dont get your comparison at all <div class="quote_poster">Quoting hohoyoyoyo:</div><div class="quote_post"> And i still think Musselman is better than mitchell...afterall, musselman stayed with hubie for a while, and as a rebuilding team, i think toronto should take a look at the "10 men rotation" system (bosh is exception) and let people have 20-25 min playing time.</div> I'm not going to touch the Musselman>Mitchell comment..thats your opinion, and even though you have not interviewed either and probably dont know much about either you ARE entitled to your opinion. However i HAVE to touch on the 10 man rotation suggestion you made. <clears throat> YOU WANT A REBUILDING TEAM WITH TONS OF YOUNG TALENT TO TAKE MINUTES AWAY FROM THEM AND GIVE IT TO THE WILLIAMSES AND LOREN WOODS!!!!! Browns 10 man system works for some teams. Usually teams with lots of equal talent and lacking in stars. I see no reason to hamper the development of those players to win a few more games. In fact i would suggest giving Graham, Calderon, Hoffa, Bosh, Bonner starters minutes, have Mo, James, Aaron Williams, playing backup minutes and send Rose packing. Even if it means paying him to sit ala Terrel Owens. He's a talented player but not the type you want around developing players. Sorry Jalen.
when i said charlotte is an example to look at, i meant to say depth and free agent signings (specifically this one) they sign players to cheap deals that aren't long term, and they are decent, not superstar, not even allstar, but they get their jobs done as for rookie draft bashing...i remembered me saying he isn't awful but toronto could have done better by choosing players with better defence/inside presence I dont' think charlie is good defensively...not now...i don't know about the future, but at least not yet...never really questioned his offensive talent though regarding the 10 man rotation ok..you can give calderon+mike james+charlie+joey graham+jalen+peterson+beloved brazilian "centre"+ bosh+bonner quality minutes that's 9 people already now when the brazilian guy is in foul trouble, as 80% of the time he is, then send in aaron and loren woods...they are equally bad, but start with those 9 first....does it make more sense now? the key is to let the guys compete with each other for minutes...create some sparks, i am not saying it has to be a permanent thing, as i mentioned that you adjust their min according to their productions and match ups that require a coach's knowledge of the game for it to work...well...it doesn't have to be musselman, but i hope mitchell tries it sometimes. Lastly, i do still think that the GM could have done better with his TIMING, not be "patient" all the time...players values change very fast, you got to be decisive and be bold enough to pull a big trade when it's available, especially a guy that whines everyday and fakes injury...
<div class="quote_poster">Quoting dunksworth:</div><div class="quote_post">If you take a poll around the league and asked them who they'd rather have, Granger or Graham, I'm pretty sure the majority would say Granger.... The only real concern people have w/ Granger is his injury problem, which isn't any worse than Graham's tendinitis in the knees. And yes, his defense hasn't been all that it's cracked up to be so far (even Mitchell called him out on it)... but again, I wouldn't be overly concerned about it at this point.</div> I have to admit that I'm not inclined to disagree with this comment. On draft night when the 14th pick came up I was hoping to hear "Danny Granger", in fact I was chanting "Danny Granger, Danny Granger" as Stern walked up to the mike. While I think that Graham might have been priority 1A as opposed priority 1, which I gave Granger, I wasn't overly disappointed by the end pick. I do think that Granger has more upside than Graham. I think that a lot of people fell in love with Graham's athletic tests, which were singularly impressive. I think that sometimes those athletic tests are more of a focus than raw ability to play the game of basketball, however. To that end, I think that Granger is more of a true player. Graham is obviously a better athlete. For me, I'd rather go with guys who know how to play. That's where I appreciate a guy like Jose Calderon, because I'd hate to see how he'd test out athletically, but from a standpoint of hoops IQ, he's unmatched on the Raptors and likely one of even the league's elite related to his understanding of the game I agree that you can't really comment on Granger v. Graham right now with Granger eating pine as opposed to "Eating some ACC Rim!!!", but in relative terms, I still think that you can very adequately make the argument that Granger could be a superior talent at that spot in the draft, based solely on his college career and what he showed in preseason In the end, "If 'ifs' and 'buts' were candy and nuts, we'd all have a Merry Christmas" and we'd have drafted Gilbert Arenas in 2001 instead of Michael Bradley -- thanks for the memories GG Have fun..............
<div class="quote_poster">Quoting 02civic:</div><div class="quote_post">They all bitched about CV being drafted..but they've shut up now huh? And if CV didnt pan out they'd be claiming "i told you so".</div> Well what do you expect them to do? They were proven wrong. Would you like it better if they were still complaining about the CV pick? Or do you expect people to not voice their opinion if they aren't going to be right? Babcock has made enough mistakes and, even though I don't think he should be fired, people have the right to question whether or not he still deserves to have his job. If anything you calling everyone an idiot is a more ridiculous argument.
With all the talk of letting Rick Adelman go, do you think that Raptors would be a better team if they signed him as a coach to replace Sam Mitchell?
i wonder if toronto is talented enough to score the lights out of team and tire opponents out and win games? if the Kings can't really do it this year...what make you think toronto can...
<div class="quote_poster">Quoting hohoyoyoyo:</div><div class="quote_post">i wonder if toronto is talented enough to score the lights out of team and tire opponents out and win games? if the Kings can't really do it this year...what make you think toronto can...</div> My question was, do you think they would be a better team, not if they would be able to run the system as well as Sacramento does now.
they probably would because adelman is better than mitchell he knows the game better than mitchell does... but i still don't think he would be a good candidate for toronto I think the bigger question is: who wants to coach toronto?
As far as coaches, I believe Wilkins was the best coach in Raps history...thats just my opinion tho... I do think Mitchell will be let loose before babcock is...Mitchell is just having a horrendous stint in Toronto and has done nothing to win the players' confidence and trust...its not as if the Raps dont have talent...they just dont have leadership and/or professionalism...
<div class="quote_poster">Quoting Rocket:</div><div class="quote_post">As far as coaches, I believe Wilkins was the best coach in Raps history...thats just my opinion tho...</div> Reconsider. I trust you didn't watch any Barney games back in those days from that comment. I think that so far the best coaches have probably been Butch Carter and then likely Sam. I like what Sam has done from the perspective of getting the team to play hard night in and night out . You watch a lot of the teams in the league consistently and you know that effort isn't a given at the pro level Have fun.............
I don't know, we've had a few too many games where it seemed like we needed to coach effort, and you don't want to have that.
