Is Kobe Still The Best?

Let wade play on the Lakers squad, and Kobe play with the Heat team and see whos better. how about that?

 

Big O info

<div class="quote_poster">Quoting Jurassic:</div><div class="quote_post">Haha, I'll admit when I'm wrong.

Who was the original player to come out of high school? I'm obviously confusing him with someone.

Even though I was wrong about O (frankly, I believe that all that information you just spat at me came from a quick Google, rather than your own head right?), you still proved nothing. Kobe's potential as a kid is irrelevant in whether he is the best sg today.</div>

Actually, no. The only thing that I got originally wrong was the the state that he was originally from. I thought he was from Ohio, but he was from Indiana. The info on the name of his school, his accomplishments in college I knew already. I had to edit the location of his school the second time around. And for the record, I am a writer, which is probably one of the reasons that caused you to believe that my post sounded more like that of a biography off of a online sports encyclopedia. Although I have not officially written consistently in awhile, but I have done so in the past.

 

<div class="quote_poster">Quoting Johnnybrasco:</div><div class="quote_post">
Two years ago was anyone talking about zydrunas? no. now he's an allstar. Before Gooden joined up with Lebron most people didn't even know who he was, now he's been close to averaging a double double.

Also look how Dwade has turned Haslem from an unknown undrafted player into a legit power forward.

</div>

Wow you're making bold statement after bold statement

Big Z was first team all rookie and his stats haven't changed much since lebron came to town. Everyone knew of this guy, if you didn't i'm sorry, but mostly cause his good play when earlier in his career got him a big time contract (the one previous to the one he signed, his new 10 million per year contract was a pay cut) I wouldn't say Lebron turned Big Z into an all-star i would say that he's finally getting over his injuries. To say noone had heard of drew gooden is bold as well, he was the #4 overall pick in the draft and a stud in college. His rebounds have gone up since joining the cavs but that's for a few reasons. He focuses more on rebounds(his points are dropping this season) and he played sf in orlando(outside of his true position power foward)

Dwayne wade turned haslem into what he is? Ever heard of Shaq, Shaq is the reason haslem could get more open looks. He even sited shaq as one of the main reasons he was willing to take less money to stay in miami.


<div class="quote_poster">Quoting Jurassic:</div><div class="quote_post">
Who was the original player to come out of high school? I'm obviously confusing him with someone. </div>

I want to say moses malone in 74 but i could be wrong

 

Clearly LeBron and Iverson are playing better this season than Kobe. I also think they played better than him last year. So, I'd say he's not the best perimeter player in the game, and hasn't been since Shaq was wearing a Lakers uniform.

 

Statistically Based Top Guard

Now, here's my argument (statistically based only, I'll add another post with opinionated comments based on the intangibles)

<u>Games</u>
Over the past 4 seasons, Kobe Bryant has made 80 appearances, Allen Iverson 74, Ray Allen 98, Steve Nash 101, Jason Kidd 80, Gilbert Arenas 84 and Tracy McGrady 79. Therefore, in terms of the number of games played, and therefore durability over the course of a season, Kobe Bryant is not the best but Steve Nash is.

Point Tally:
Steve Nash 1

<u>FG%</u>
Although not completely important to be above 50% for a guard, and a rarity, it is a very important statistic. These players will make a lot of shots, so you want them to make a lot of them. Kobe makes 43%, AI 37%, Ray Allen 42%, Steve Nash 47%, Jason Kidd 34%, Gilbert Arenas 43% and Tracy McGrady 43% also. This shows that, yet again, Steve Nash is the best guard in terms of making the shots he takes.

Point Tally:
Steve Nash 2

<u>3pt%</u>
An important part of any guard's game - the art of 3 point shooting. If you want them to make a lot of points, you want them to sink as many baskets from downtown as possible. Kobe made 35%, AI 29%, RA 38%, SN 41%, JK 34%, GA 37%, TMc 35%. For the third time, Steve Nash leads the way.

Point Tally:
Steve Nash 3

<u>FT%</u>
Guards who drive will likely be fouled when going through the land and thus will get to the foul line often. Therefore, it is a key part of their game to make as many of these shots as possible. KB 84%, AI 79%, RA 90%, SN 91%, JK 81%, GA 79%, TMc 79%. So, for the fourth straight time, Steve Nash comes out on top.

Point Tally:
Steve Nash 4

<u>Offensive Rebounds</u>
A minor part of a guard's game, but still a part that could potentially make or break a guard if he is weaker in other areas. KB 1.4, AI 0.7, RA 1.1, SN 0.7, JK 1.4, GA 1.1, TMc 1.3. Although there are two winners after rounding, Kobe Bryant was the clear winner in this category.

Point Tally:
Steve Nash 4
Kobe Bryant 1

<u>Defensive Rebounds</u>
This part of the game is important for the players who are looking to be a complete player - making moves at the defensive game both inside and out. For an elite guard of this type, this is a must. KB 4.7, AI 3.2, RA 3.7, SN 2.3, JK 5.3, GA 3.5, TMc 5.0. As you can see, the point guard Jason Kidd wins this one, by a considerable margin.

Point Tally:
Steve Nash 4
Kobe Bryant 1
Jason Kidd 1

<u>Assists</u>
This is very important for all guards, who can drive towards the basket and kick it out to the open man for three. They could alsoust simply produce chances for their team by having great court vision. Either way, all guards need this. KB 5.6, AI 6.8, RA 4.2, SN 9.2, JK 8.7, GA 5.6, TMc 5.4. Again, Steve Nash comes out on top in this crucial category.

Point Tally:
Steve Nash 5
Kobe Bryant 1
Jason Kidd 1

<u>Steals</u>
Like rebounds, this can be a key category for all guards as they will be able to gain steals and points or assists in one, as they get the ball and start the fast break. KB 1.7, AI 2.5, RA 1.3, SN 1.0, JK 2.0, GA 1.7, TMc 1.6. Allen Iverson is the runaway winner in this category, proving his ability to play the passing lanes.

Point Tally:
Steve Nash 5
Kobe Bryant 1
Jason Kidd 1
Allen Iverson 1

<u>Blocks</u>
A pretty irrelevant statistic for guards, but can be the difference between a win or a loss, so even one block in an entire seaon could make a difference to the team, though not too mportant for guards. KB 0.7, AI 0.1, RA 0.1, SN 0.1, JK 0.2, GA 0.3, TMc 0.7. Due to rounding, there are 2 winners, but Tracy McGrady leads by 0.02bpg and is therefore the winner.

Point Tally:
Steve Nash 5
Kobe Bryant 1
Jason Kidd 1
Allen Iverson 1
Tracy McGrady 1

<u>Turnovers</u>
Obviously an important stat for any player. The lower this stat, the less you give the ball away and therefore, the better. KB 3.4, AI 4.0, RA 2.5, SN 2.9, JK 3.1, GA 3.5, TMc 2.6. Ray Allen is the winner in this category with just five turnovers every two games.

Point Tally:
Steve Nash 5
Kobe Bryant 1
Jason Kidd 1
Allen Iverson 1
Tracy McGrady 1
Ray Allen 1

<u>Points</u>
The big one. Games are won and lost by guards scoring points, or not scoring them for that matter. A key stat for all guards. KB 27.7, AI 28.9, RA 23.2, SN 16.1, JK 16.2, GA 21.7, TMc 28.3. As you can see, Allen Iverson is on top for the second time and therefore takes this one.

<u>Final Point Tally</u>
Steve Nash 5
Allen Iverson 2
Kobe Bryant 1
Jason Kidd 1
Tracy McGrady 1
Ray Allen 1
Gilbert Arenas 0

Therefore, statistically, Steve Nash is the best guard in the League.

 

Intangibles and my overall opinion

Now for my opinion on the intangibles.

As you can see, Kobe does everything very well and is therefore a very good guard. However, given the choice I would choose Allen Iverson, Tracy McGrady, Dwyane Wade and LeBron James before him. I know T-Mac and LBJ aren't technically Guards, but they can play there. These players all have better attitutudes than the temperamental and volatile Kobe Bryant. They also have similar, or better, ability and potential than him. OK, so Kobe has won some rings, but he hasn't since Shaq left.

That is my point; Kobe cannot carry a team single-handedly to the playoffs and past the first round. Allen Iverson can, and has, Tracy McGrady can, and has, Dwyane Wade carried his team through the playoffs and, although he could never quite do it, LeBron has the ability to carry a team on his back and only just missed out in both seasons he has been in the League.

So, I'm not saying that Kobe is a bad player, but his selfish, temperamental attitude do nothing to help his cause, whereas others in the League will look to pass-first and try to get on with their team-mates. Simple, Kobe has great ability, but:

1. His ability is not the best in the League.
2. His temper is one of the worst in the League.
3. His ball-hogging tendencies lower my estimations of him

There, finished.



(N.B. I did not include LeBron or Wade in the statistics spreadheet as they have only been in the League for 2 years.
If anybody wants the spreadsheet, ask.)

 

<div class="quote_poster">Quoting chingy0007:</div><div class="quote_post">Now for my opinion on the intangibles.

As you can see, Kobe does everything very well and is therefore a very good guard. However, given the choice I would choose Allen Iverson, Tracy McGrady, Dwyane Wade and LeBron James before him. I know T-Mac and LBJ aren't technically Guards, but they can play there. These players all have better attitutudes than the temperamental and volatile Kobe Bryant. They also have similar, or better, ability and potential than him. OK, so Kobe has won some rings, but he hasn't since Shaq left.

That is my point; Kobe cannot carry a team single-handedly to the playoffs and past the first round. Allen Iverson can, and has, Tracy McGrady can, and has, Dwyane Wade carried his team through the playoffs and, although he could never quite do it, LeBron has the ability to carry a team on his back and only just missed out in both seasons he has been in the League.

So, I'm not saying that Kobe is a bad player, but his selfish, temperamental attitude do nothing to help his cause, whereas others in the League will look to pass-first and try to get on with their team-mates. Simple, Kobe has great ability, but:

1. His ability is not the best in the League.
2. His temper is one of the worst in the League.
3. His ball-hogging tendencies lower my estimations of him

There, finished.



(N.B. I did not include LeBron or Wade in the statistics spreadheet as they have only been in the League for 2 years.
If anybody wants the spreadsheet, ask.)</div>

Good assessments. But I have a few problems with the way you did this...

1. You lumped in guards with point guards. Which is all fine and dandy only point guards have a distinct advantage in certain categories I think because their roles are different. Assists for instance. Also point guards also tend to have better FG%s because they should be looking to run the offense primarly and shoot when they have a good shot. Not so shooting guards who are required to shoot more.

2. You also don't take into consideration each players respective roles as rookies and sophomores in the league.

3. You then go on to say that T-Mac, AI, and D Wade carried their teams singlehandedly past the first round of the playoffs. Wade you can just remove from this category as he has never singlehandedly done this. T-Mac could not do it with a talent-limited team surrounding him. AI is the only one who could do it and I believe he owes alot of that to Larry Brown. When Larry left the 76ers spiralled downwards as well. Also these guys did what they did in the Eastern conference when it was enough to be a .500 team to make the playoffs. Then you also do not allow for the fact that Kobe has had only two attempts at carrying his team to the playoffs and those two attempts have come in the harder Western conference and with not much help.

4. You say Kobe's ability is not the best in the league. Again, this HAS to be your opinion as the opinion of many analysts in the league might differ considerably. Talent wise only McGrady and James can compete with Kobe in the league I believe. And Kobe is widely regarded as the best one-on-one player in the league.

5. You neglect to factor in the fact that Kobe is the only guard who we have proof that once he is paired with a top five player in the league can possibly win a championship. That has to count for alot. The greatest player has to be able to win the ultimate prize. I am not saying the other guys cannot do this... but that is an unknown.

6. Again you factor in your opinion on what type of person he is and your opinion on matter we only get to see through the distorted view of the media... yet you do not do the same for the other players. T-Mac is known for being lazy and not giving his all. He is also known for speaking badly against his teammates. AI was also known as a ball hog and did not get along with his coaches.

 

<div class="quote_poster">Quoting shapecity:</div><div class="quote_post">Nice statistical breakdown, I think you should also include post-season numbers for these players. I'd like to see how these players perform when it really counts.

You can't just overlook Kobe's 3 rings and then mention he hasn't won anything without Shaq.

How many rings has Shaq won without Kobe? ZERO.

They both had impact on those championship teams, they both deserve credit for them.

Kobe has never single handedly led a team to the playoffs. Well Kobe has never had a team built around him either. Last year was the first time Kobe's been the #1 option for the Lakers, and the organization has just begun constructing a team around him. They don't exactly have the financial flexibility to get the needed players just yet and it takes at least two or three seasons before a player is comfortable in the Triangle offense. It's really too, early to judge Kobe's ability to lead a team until he actually has a team built around him to compliment his game.

As for your intangibles, I disagree with every single one of them.

Kobe's Ability

Bar none the best in the league, because he has improved his skill set every single year. There's nothing on the court he can't do on either end of the floor. He has a complete game and can win a game for you on either end of the court. You cannot name a single thing on the court Kobe doesn't do well.

Defensively, Nash can't, Iverson can't, Wade can't, and LeBron can't. The only other guard on there who can is probably T-Mac.

Kobe's Temper

I'm not sure what you're basing this on. He rarely gets called for technical fouls, you don't see him kicking or tossing the ball into the stands, you don't see him cheap shoting a player, so how exactly does he have one of the worst tempers in the league?

Kobe's Ballhogging

The second half of last season I would agree, Kobe was a ballhog. But don't pin the label on him this season. Has he had some moments where he's been selfish, absolutely. However, if you breakdown the circumstances and watch the Lakers progress you'll understand why he's been shooting the ball 30 times a game.

There's been 4 stages so far for the Lakers offense.

Stage 1 was games 1 thru 4. In those 4 games Kobe Bryant shooting well over 50% and was torching defenses. He was being guarded one on one in those 4 games because teams didn't realize how poor the supporting cast was. The rest of his teammates were pretty much lost on offense in those first 4 games. After the Atlanta game, Kobe suffered an injury to his index finger, causing his shooting touch to be a bit off.

Stage 2 games 5 thru 12. In those 7 games defenses adjusted to the Lakers and suffocated Kobe Bryant, forcing his teammates to step up and beat them. They failed miserably, and both Kobe & PJax decided it's better for Kobe to be option 1 and 2 in the offense until the team can play consistently and start making teams pay for doubling and tripling on Kobe.

Stage 3 games 13 thru 17. This is the ballhog stage for Kobe this season. His teammates were playing better, but Kobe was still stuck in stage 2 and wasn't confident in them yet. It led to PJax discipling Kobe by benching him and having a sitdown with him to start sharing the ball again. Also PJax makes an adjusment by placing Odom inside the post instead of having him play on the perimeter, bricking 3's.

Stage 4 last two games. The teammates have a better grasp on the offense and it's resulted in Kobe taking less shots, shooting a better FG%, and racking up assists. I realize the last two games have been against two of the worst defensive teams in the league. So the question will be whether or not Kobe's teammates are having a fluke performance or are they turning the corner. I like to be optimistic and go with the latter.</div>

Kind of what I was trying to say. Very good points on the stages of the Lakers offense as well.

 

<div class="quote_poster">Quoting shapecity:</div><div class="quote_post">
Yeah but, would you also clearly say LeBron and Iverson have a stronger supporting cast?</div>

LeBron, yes. Iverson, I think it's about the same. But I'm not sure how a supporting cast would impact the performance of the star player. Generally, it's the other way around.

I think Shaq clearly helped Kobe as far as making him a more efficient player. With Shaq gone this season in Miami, Wade's efficiency has dropped considerably as well (sub 45% when you're not even making 3's is below average).

If the question is who's the most clutch perimeter player, I think Kobe would be right at the top of the list (I might lean more in favor of McGrady, but then again I'm biased). But who's the best, overall, I think the answer is LeBron.

 

<div class="quote_poster">Quoting chingy0007:</div><div class="quote_post">Now, here's my argument (statistically based only, I'll add another post with opinionated comments based on the intangibles)

...

Therefore, statistically, Steve Nash is the best guard in the League.
</div>

Um, no. Even assuming that a player's worth can be measured as a linear function of individual statistical categories, it doesn't make sense to weight each of them exactly the same. Hollinger's PER (player efficiency rating) attempts to measure how good a player is as a linear combination of various stats (per possession), but his actually makes sense.

Here's the top perimeter players last year, according to the PER:
<font face=""Courier New"">LeBron James - 25.75
Kobe Bryant - 23.28
Allen Iverson - 23.23
Dwyane Wade - 23.17
Tracy McGrady - 22.95
Vince Carter - 22.83
Manu Ginobili - 22.32
Steve Nash - 22.06
Stephon Marbury - 21.93
Paul Pierce - 21.82</font>

And so far this year:
<font face=""Courier New"">Allen Iverson - 28.7
LeBron James - 28.7
Paul Pierce - 27.6
Dwyane Wade - 27.3
Tracy McGrady - 24.2
Chauncy Billups - 23.8
Kobe Bryant - 23.2
Tony Parker - 22.8
Gilbert Arenas - 22.6
Rashard Lewis - 22.5</font>

 

<div class="quote_poster">Quoting shapecity:</div><div class="quote_post">
I think it's a combination of both, regarding the supporting cast and the star player. If you have the wrong mix of role players, the demands on your star player increases. A good example is the Hawks. They have a lot of talent, but far too, much redundancy on their roster. I think the 76ers have better specialized talent than the Lakers. AI is surrounded by better defensive players, and can expend most of his energy on offense. Kobe on the other hand is responsible to shoulder both the offensive and defensive load for the Lakers. You add a two way player alongside Kobe and you'll see an increase in Kobe's efficiency.</div>

Good points. That's what makes comparing players and deciding "who's the best" such a difficult task. Player's performance is very much based on the makeup of their team, and the roles they play within it. It's a fun topic to discuss, but in actually I think it's one of those things where there simply is no right answer.

 

Last season Kobe was on the All NBA 3rd Team. That means there was at least 4 guards better then him last season. The guards were Allen Iverson, Steve Nash, Dwyane Wade, and Ray Allen. That's not even with LeBron and T-Mac who were voted as a Forward and each had more points than Kobe.

He also got beat on the defense teams by 4 guards at least, Dwyane Wade ( once again), Jason Kidd, Bruce Bowen, Larry Hughes, and Chauncy Billups.

This year nothing has made me change my mind on why he would deserve to be on the All NBA team over any of those players.( maybe Ray Allen)

 

Hold on, for eveyone saying wade didn't single handedly make it throught the 2 rounds of playoffs, doensn't anybody remember shaq was injured pretty much that whole series. He averged like 16 points and even missed most of the washington series so wade has alredy lead a team through the eastern conference finals in just his second year.

Not to mention joining : Bob Cousy, Oscar Robertson, Wilt Chamberlain, Larry Bird, Magic Johnson and Michael Jordan as the only players to average at least 25 points, eight assists and six rebounds while shooting 50% in a playoff series

 

<div class="quote_poster">Quoting durvasa:</div><div class="quote_post">LeBron, yes. Iverson, I think it's about the same. But I'm not sure how a supporting cast would impact the performance of the star player. Generally, it's the other way around.

I think Shaq clearly helped Kobe as far as making him a more efficient player. With Shaq gone this season in Miami, Wade's efficiency has dropped considerably as well (sub 45% when you're not even making 3's is below average).

If the question is who's the most clutch perimeter player, I think Kobe would be right at the top of the list (I might lean more in favor of McGrady, but then again I'm biased). But who's the best, overall, I think the answer is LeBron.</div>

Clearly you think a good supporting cast improves a player if you thought Shaq made Kobe better. I really didn't even want to get into this debate because every time I do someone is quick to use the "biased Kobe fan" label on me, no matter what I think of the argument. True in some cases having a great supporting cast sometimes hurts your stats as we saw with Kobe in the 04' season only averaging 24ppg, but that didn't make him a less efficient player. He may not have put up career high stats but he IMO had his best defensive season that year. A lousy supporting cast might mean more shots to a player but with that also comes the focus of every opposing player on you.
Kobe's current supporting cast still doesn't seem to have any idea what they are doing on offense half of the time, and the only other player on the team who can create his own shot is Lamar. You could argue that Kobe should be making the other players better and that would free him up, but as I've said half of the time the team isn't even running the offense correctly making it harder for the playmakers. In simple facts, the Lakers do not have one other scoring threat, or even a reliable scorer to get 15/per on any given night. Lamar could give you 25 in one night and give you 8 the next. Mihm rarely even scores 10 points on the road. Smush might be the only other fairly consistent player on the team, and not to criticize him but he can only give us 13ppg. Kwame Brown? he's been out for weeks and isn't any better even when he's on the floor. Brian Cook? On a good shooting night he can give you 15-18 points, but he'll still give up just as much if not more on the other end.

It's nearly impossible to compare players. Stats shouldn't be used to declare who the better player is. at 17points, 14 boards, 4 blocks and 55% shooting I haven't seen anyone claim Marcus Camby is the best player in the league. If stats mean so much, why not?