<div class="quote_poster">Quoting Voodoo Child:</div><div class="quote_post">You must not see a lot of Shane Battier then, because he's just as good, if not better, than Ron Artest on the defensive end of the floor. If you don't believe me, check out this study by Dan Rosenbaum at 82games.com - http://82games.com/rosenbaum3.htm According to his study, Shane Battier is the #1 defensive small forward in the NBA over the likes of Andrei Kirilenko and Bruce Bowen. As for their offensive abilities, Battier is averaging 12.9 ppg this season, and Artest averaged 18.3 ppg in his last full season (2003-2004). Looking at that, you'd probably think that Artest is the better offensive player, but you also need to look at the shot attempts each player takes. Shane Battier is only averaging 9.1 shot attempts per game, whereas Ron Artest averaged 15.2 attempts per game. That's a huge discrepency for such a small difference in ppg. Then you have to look at their shooting percentages. Shane Battier is shooting 52% from the field and 49% from downtown, whereas Ron Artest only shot 42% from the field and 31% from downtown. Artest had the advantage of averaging slightly more playing time than Battier. It's kind of funny that you bring out how strong Artest is and how he outmuscles post players, because Shane Battier was the NCAA Player of the Year as a power forward at Duke and is every bit as strong as Artest. He's even seen a lot of time at the four spot in the NBA, and he's been pretty damn successful at it. In fact, the second most effective rotation that the Grizzlies run has Battier in the post. Battier's greatest attributes can't even be measured with statistics though. He's Mr. Intangible. There's probably not a player in the NBA who works as hard as he does, constantly diving to the floor for loose balls and taking charges. He's really the heart and soul of the team and constantly sacrifices his body for the greater good of the team, and that's more important than any scoring statistic. With all of these things considered, do you still think Artest is that much better?</div> Bro, Battier isn't even the best player on his team, he's just a role player, he's not a good to guy, and another overrated DUKE smallfoward who hasn't reached his potential Battier was drafted 6th overall, Artest was drafted 16th overall Ron Artest has reached full potential, unlike Battier. He's shooting 49% on 47 shots, its only been 20 games...that stat is irrevelant Battier has a limited offensive game, He only only averaged double digits once in his career, and so far he's averaging 12 points this season, thats his career right now, but its only been twenty games. Please, don't compare Battier to Artest. Battier doesn't have a post game like Artest Battier cannot create his own shot, Artest can do that, thats why he can get that many attempts a game Yeh, Battier is just the BEST defensive SF in the NBA Teyshaun Prince just dropped 24 points on Shane when the Pistons last faced the Grizzlies November 30, 2005 Mo Peterson and Graham combined for 26 points against Battier November 26, 2005 Josh Howard dropped 17 points with ease on Shane, above his season average for PPG November 22, 2005 D Miles shoots 50% against Battier and drops 22 points November 20, 2005 Carmelo Anthony shoots 45% on 21 points on Battier November 19, 2005 Matt Harping drops 13 points on Battier and holds Battier to 1-7 FG and with only 4 points November 16, 2005 Shawn Marion shoots 50% against Battier and drops 23 points on him November 12, 2005 Josh Smith comes off the bench and shoots 50% against Battier, with 14 points, M. Williams finishes playing SF against Battier with 5-6 FG Shooting and 12 points November 9, 2005 Paul Pierce dominates Shane Battier, and he's helpess against the all star of the Celtics. Pierce drops 29 points on 69% Field Goal shooting, another pathetic defensive performance by Shane Battier November 5, 2005 Lebron James drops 36 points shooting 50% Against Battier November 2, 2005 Walker and Kapano combine for a total of 34 points. Walker shot 58% FG Kapano shot 50% and 66% from long range Battier didn't show up and only had 8 points with 3 turnovers, Heat defeat the Grizzlies 97-78 So you if you want to use these 20 games or so to your favor, TOMA, there you go man, Battier hasn't been a defensive stopper all season long, so tell your man to step up his defense this year if he wants to be compared to Ron Artest December 2, 2005 Ron Artest victimizes Daruis Miles to 33% FG shooting and 10 points, Outlaw went 2-9 also November 29, 2005 Ron Artest holds Harping to 6 points, also holds Kirlenko to 6 points, the perimeter players for Utah couldn't do anything cause of Artest presence, unlike Shane Battier who doesn't make an impact on defense, he's just a help defender November 27, 2005 Ron Artest holds a 21 ppg scorer Corey Maggate to 15 points only November 24, 2005 Ron Artest out plays Lebron James Forcing Lebron James to 5 turnovers and 30% Field Goal shooting Artest had 21 points on 50% FG Shooting November 20, 2005 Artest drops 24 on Houston November 12, 2005 Artest steps up his defense once again and holds the newest buck, Simmons to 12 points on 33% FG Shooting November 11, 2005 Artest's defensive dominance yet again Artest holds Richardson Jefferson to 9 points the whole night on 33% FG Shooting Ron Artest drops 30 points on 75% FG Shooting November 9, 2005 Ron Artest holds Walker to 33% FG shooting, unlike Battier, Artest and his team won the game against the Heat November 3, 2005 Same story, Artest dominates Walker and majority of Miami's perimeter players, holds him to 33% FG shooting, this is what Artest does best. All Shane Battier is a help defender, Ron Artest can litterally dominate on defense, theres the difference, do you understand now? Battier is a career 9 ppg player in 31 minutes of player Artest is a 15 ppg player in the same number of minutes, and he has never been a first option on his team Jermaine O'Neil takes 20 shots a game, and in the Bulls Artest was on a team with Mercer and Elton brand who took like 20 shots a game too. Voted the NBA's 2003-04 Defensive Player of the Year by the media. Leading vote-getter for the NBA All-Defensive team, as voted on by NBA head coaches. Also named to the All-NBA Third Team, his first selection to an All-NBA squad. Named to the Eastern Conference All-Star team for the first time in 2004, he averaged career-highs of 18.3 ppg and 5.3 rpg. Runner-up for NBA Defensive Player of the Year and a Second Team All-Defensive selection in '02-03, he led the Pacers in steals with 159 and finished second in the NBA in steals per game (2.30) He was the league leader with an average of 3.29 steals for every 48 minutes played in 2002-03.
<div class="quote_poster">Quoting j0se:</div><div class="quote_post">Bro, Battier isn't even the best player on his team, he's just a role player, he's not a good to guy, and another overrated DUKE smallfoward who hasn't reached his potential Battier was drafted 6th overall, Artest was drafted 16th overall Ron Artest has reached full potential, unlike Battier. He's shooting 49% on 47 shots, its only been 20 games...that stat is irrevelant Battier has a limited offensive game, He only only averaged double digits once in his career, and so far he's averaging 12 points this season, thats his career right now, but its only been twenty games. Please, don't compare Battier to Artest. Battier doesn't have a post game like Artest Battier cannot create his own shot, Artest can do that, thats why he can get that many attempts a game Yeh, Battier is just the BEST defensive SF in the NBA Teyshaun Prince just dropped 24 points on Shane when the Pistons last faced the Grizzlies November 30, 2005 Mo Peterson and Graham combined for 26 points against Battier November 26, 2005 Josh Howard dropped 17 points with ease on Shane, above his season average for PPG November 22, 2005 D Miles shoots 50% against Battier and drops 22 points November 20, 2005 Carmelo Anthony shoots 45% on 21 points on Battier November 19, 2005 Matt Harping drops 13 points on Battier and holds Battier to 1-7 FG and with only 4 points November 16, 2005 Shawn Marion shoots 50% against Battier and drops 23 points on him November 12, 2005 Josh Smith comes off the bench and shoots 50% against Battier, with 14 points, M. Williams finishes playing SF against Battier with 5-6 FG Shooting and 12 points November 9, 2005 Paul Pierce dominates Shane Battier, and he's helpess against the all star of the Celtics. Pierce drops 29 points on 69% Field Goal shooting, another pathetic defensive performance by Shane Battier November 5, 2005 Lebron James drops 36 points shooting 50% Against Battier November 2, 2005 Walker and Kapano combine for a total of 34 points. Walker shot 58% FG Kapano shot 50% and 66% from long range Battier didn't show up and only had 8 points with 3 turnovers, Heat defeat the Grizzlies 97-78 So you if you want to use these 20 games or so to your favor, TOMA, there you go man, Battier hasn't been a defensive stopper all season long, so tell your man to step up his defense this year if he wants to be compared to Ron Artest December 2, 2005 Ron Artest victimizes Daruis Miles to 33% FG shooting and 10 points, Outlaw went 2-9 also November 29, 2005 Ron Artest holds Harping to 6 points, also holds Kirlenko to 6 points, the perimeter players for Utah couldn't do anything cause of Artest presence, unlike Shane Battier who doesn't make an impact on defense, he's just a help defender November 27, 2005 Ron Artest holds a 21 ppg scorer Corey Maggate to 15 points only November 24, 2005 Ron Artest out plays Lebron James Forcing Lebron James to 5 turnovers and 30% Field Goal shooting Artest had 21 points on 50% FG Shooting November 20, 2005 Artest drops 24 on Houston November 12, 2005 Artest steps up his defense once again and holds the newest buck, Simmons to 12 points on 33% FG Shooting November 11, 2005 Artest's defensive dominance yet again Artest holds Richardson Jefferson to 9 points the whole night on 33% FG Shooting Ron Artest drops 30 points on 75% FG Shooting November 9, 2005 Ron Artest holds Walker to 33% FG shooting, unlike Battier, Artest and his team won the game against the Heat November 3, 2005 Same story, Artest dominates Walker and majority of Miami's perimeter players, holds him to 33% FG shooting, this is what Artest does best. All Shane Battier is a help defender, Ron Artest can litterally dominate on defense, theres the difference, do you understand now? Battier is a career 9 ppg player in 31 minutes of player Artest is a 15 ppg player in the same number of minutes, and he has never been a first option on his team Jermaine O'Neil takes 20 shots a game, and in the Bulls Artest was on a team with Mercer and Elton brand who took like 20 shots a game too. Voted the NBA's 2003-04 Defensive Player of the Year by the media. Leading vote-getter for the NBA All-Defensive team, as voted on by NBA head coaches. Also named to the All-NBA Third Team, his first selection to an All-NBA squad. Named to the Eastern Conference All-Star team for the first time in 2004, he averaged career-highs of 18.3 ppg and 5.3 rpg. Runner-up for NBA Defensive Player of the Year and a Second Team All-Defensive selection in '02-03, he led the Pacers in steals with 159 and finished second in the NBA in steals per game (2.30) He was the league leader with an average of 3.29 steals for every 48 minutes played in 2002-03.</div> He does make a good case.
<div class="quote_poster">Quoting j0se:</div><div class="quote_post">Bro, Battier isn't even the best player on his team, he's just a role player, he's not a good to guy, and another overrated DUKE smallfoward who hasn't reached his potential</div> Guess what, Ron Artest isn't the best player on his team either. What does that have to do with anything anyway? We're comparing the talent levels of two players, not the talent levels of their teams. What does the fact that he's from Duke have to do with anything either? If he was from Puerto Rico, I'm sure you'd be all over the guy. As for reaching his potential, anyone who knows anything could have told you that he didn't have that great of potential entering the draft. He wasn't drafted for his potential though. He was drafted because of his NBA readiness, his defense, his leadership, and his intangibles. <div class="quote_poster">Quote:</div><div class="quote_post">Battier was drafted 6th overall, Artest was drafted 16th overall Ron Artest has reached full potential, unlike Battier.</div> If anything, their draft position hurts your argument, so I don't know why you'd even bring it up. You're not understanding that Battier HAS reached his full potential. Scouts knew there wasn't that much room for him to grow, and yet he was still drafted #6 overall. That says a lot about the kid's abilities. <div class="quote_poster">Quote:</div><div class="quote_post">He's shooting 49% on 47 shots, its only been 20 games...that stat is irrevelant</div> First of all, don't mix up his FG% and his 3 pt%. For just basic FG%, he's shooting 52% and that's on 210 shots. It's his three point percentage that's at 49%, and 47 three pointers is actually a large number at this point of the season. It's about the equivilent to just under 200 three pointers on the year, so no, it's far from irrelevant. <div class="quote_poster">Quote:</div><div class="quote_post">Battier has a limited offensive game, He only only averaged double digits once in his career, and so far he's averaging 12 points this season, thats his career right now, but its only been twenty games.</div> You fail to mention that the one year he averaged double digits was in his rookie season, where he averaged 14.4 ppg. That should tell you a hell of a lot about the circumstances that Battier is in. Obviously he is capable of putting up numbers well beyond 14.4 ppg, because he did that his rookie season. However, ever since that season, he's had coaches like Hubie Brown and Mike Fratello who don't play him a lot of minutes and don't utilize him in a way that will allow for gaudy point per game averages. But you'd have to be a fool to say that Battier couldn't put up well over 15 ppg if he went back to a system like the one Sydney Lowe ran. <div class="quote_poster">Quote:</div><div class="quote_post">Please, don't compare Battier to Artest. Battier doesn't have a post game like Artest Battier cannot create his own shot, Artest can do that, thats why he can get that many attempts a game</div> I'd take Shane Battier on my team over Ron Artest 6 times out of 10. In fact, the Grizzlies have even turned down an offer of Artest for Battier before. That should tell you all you need to know. Saying that Battier doesn't have a post game like Artest is just plain uneducated. Do a fact check or something, because Shane Battier was a McDonald's All-American at power forward and the National Player of the Year in the NCAA at power forward. Also, like I mentioned earlier, the second most effective rotation that the Grizzlies run, according to 82games.com, has Shane Battier playing power forward. As for creating his own shot, have you even seen Battier play? Battier is all over the place offensively. <div class="quote_poster">Quote:</div><div class="quote_post"><font size=""1"">Yeh, Battier is just the BEST defensive SF in the NBA Teyshaun Prince just dropped 24 points on Shane when the Pistons last faced the Grizzlies November 30, 2005 Mo Peterson and Graham combined for 26 points against Battier November 26, 2005 Josh Howard dropped 17 points with ease on Shane, above his season average for PPG November 22, 2005 D Miles shoots 50% against Battier and drops 22 points November 20, 2005 Carmelo Anthony shoots 45% on 21 points on Battier November 19, 2005 Matt Harping drops 13 points on Battier and holds Battier to 1-7 FG and with only 4 points November 16, 2005 Shawn Marion shoots 50% against Battier and drops 23 points on him November 12, 2005 Josh Smith comes off the bench and shoots 50% against Battier, with 14 points, M. Williams finishes playing SF against Battier with 5-6 FG Shooting and 12 points November 9, 2005 Ron Artest holds Walker to 33% FG shooting, unlike Battier, Artest and his team won the game against the Heat November 3, 2005 Same story, Artest dominates Walker and majority of Miami's perimeter players, holds him to 33% FG shooting, this is what Artest does best. All Shane Battier is a help defender, Ron Artest can litterally dominate on defense, theres the difference, do you understand now? </font></div> I want the minute of my life back it took to read that crap. First of all, you can't just judge a players defense by how many points an opposing player who is labeled at the same position scores against his team, especially with a player like Battier who plays up to four positions. Second of all, 82games.com is perhaps the most advanced and accurate statistical website on the internet. They have crunched the numbers, including the ones that don't show up in the little box scores you just wasted your time copying into your post, and Battier came up as the #1 defensive small forward. Anyone who has ever seen Shane Battier play basketball knows that he's a lockdown defender. <div class="quote_poster">Quote:</div><div class="quote_post"> Battier is a career 9 ppg player in 31 minutes of player Artest is a 15 ppg player in the same number of minutes, and he has never been a first option on his team Jermaine O'Neil takes 20 shots a game, and in the Bulls Artest was on a team with Mercer and Elton brand who took like 20 shots a game too.</div> How many times do I need to explain to you that it's nearly impossible for anyone to put up gaudy numbers in the Grizzlies' system? You act like Shane Battier and Ron Artest have played the same offensive roles on their teams, but that's completely untrue. Ron Artest is definitely utilized more by the Pacers than Battier is by the Grizzlies, and that shows up in statistics like field goal attempts, which as you can see by the ones I posted earlier, Artest takes a considerable more amount of attempts than Battier. <div class="quote_poster">Quote:</div><div class="quote_post">Voted the NBA's 2003-04 Defensive Player of the Year by the media. Leading vote-getter for the NBA All-Defensive team, as voted on by NBA head coaches. Also named to the All-NBA Third Team, his first selection to an All-NBA squad. Named to the Eastern Conference All-Star team for the first time in 2004, he averaged career-highs of 18.3 ppg and 5.3 rpg. Runner-up for NBA Defensive Player of the Year and a Second Team All-Defensive selection in '02-03, he led the Pacers in steals with 159 and finished second in the NBA in steals per game (2.30) </div> Did you perhaps forget to read the title of this thread? "Artest <u>Overrated</u>?" If the subject of debate is Artest's rate then why the hell would it matter if a group of voters picked him on an All-NBA team? Isn't that what this whole thread is about, saying those people are wrong? It's not like those awards are 100% accurate or based on statistical evidence. They're completely subjective and thus subject to argument, hence this thread.
I cannot believe someone actually thinks that Battier is just as good or better than Artest defensively... What's crazier than this is that you would take Shane over Ronron if you had a choice?? Ok, assuming that you don't include salary into this whole thing... you are really way alone on your opinion there VC. Talk about being a homer.. I don't care what stats site u're looking at, watch the game. When I watch Shane I don't see him really shut down people night in and night out on a consistent basis like Artest. Shane will not give you 20ppg even if he was given the minutes. You mentioned that Shane averaged 14.4ppg in his rookie season. He did that in almost 40 minutes of playing time and shooting very poorly (under 43%) so no, he does not have anywhere near the offensive prowess that Artest has. Don't even mention the word "improvement" because we are all very aware of how potential-limited Shane is. I was a Battier fan when he was with Duke (very ironic because I'm a UNC fan..) but realize the NBA is not the same as NCAA. He might have played PF in college or McD's All-American but all of that don't matter when you come to the NBA to play SF. Battier would get obliterated if he tries to play the post up game in the NBA. He does get rebounds and putbacks, but that isn't the same as saying the guy has any legit NBA post moves. Keep in mind that Shane doesn't have to worry about offense like Artest. It's way way easier to play just one end of the floor and not concentrating so much on the other end. Shane gets easy open looks and is a role player. He definitely doesn't have to work as hard for his points as Artest.
<div class="quote_poster">Quoting SupraJames:</div><div class="quote_post">I cannot believe someone actually thinks that Battier is just as good or better than Artest defensively... What's crazier than this is that you would take Shane over Ronron if you had a choice?? Ok, assuming that you don't include salary into this whole thing... you are really way alone on your opinion there VC. Talk about being a homer..</div> It's not like I'm just pulling this argument out of my ass. I've got the stats to back it up. You've just got to be open to new ideas instead of accepting what ESPN/TNT crams down your throat 24/7 about Artest being the best defender in the NBA (not specifically talking about you, Supra). Saying that I'd take Shane over "Ronron" wasn't 100% based on what they'd bring to my team on the court but also how they'd carry themselves off of it. Ron Artest is a headcase (stating the obvious), and Shane Battier is an annual candidate for the sportsmanship award whose works in the community are like nothing I've ever seen from an NBA player after living in four NBA cities. That's why Jerry West will always turn down Artest for Battier. If you think I'm alone on this, you'd be surprised. I've talked to a lot of intelligent fans, like Moo2k4 and Schaddy for example, who agree that Battier is just as valuable, if not more, than Ron Artest. <div class="quote_poster">Quote:</div><div class="quote_post">I don't care what stats site u're looking at, watch the game. When I watch Shane I don't see him really shut down people night in and night out on a consistent basis like Artest. Shane will not give you 20ppg even if he was given the minutes. You mentioned that Shane averaged 14.4ppg in his rookie season. He did that in almost 40 minutes of playing time and shooting very poorly (under 43%) so no, he does not have anywhere near the offensive prowess that Artest has.</div> As cliche as it sounds, I agree that statistics don't tell the whole story. However, in our day and age, they can tell us a hell of a lot more than you probably think. Sites like 82games.com and databasebasketball.com have just about every statistic out there; it's amazing. Not to sound condescending, but you say that Battier doesn't shut people down night in and night out, yet you live in Los Angeles. How much of Shane Battier can you really see? You can't just go by how much the opposing team's small forward scores, because Battier will only be on that player for about half the game, if that. How can you base Battier's scoring potential based on his rookie season? 14.4 ppg is damn good for a rookie. Artest himself was averaging 31.1 mpg and only scored 11.9 ppg in his second year in the league. Also, since when is 42.9% shooting considered to be very poor? That's about what Ray Allen, Peja Stojakovic, Gilbert Arenas, Chris Webber, and Jason Kidd are averaging this season. <div class="quote_poster">Quote:</div><div class="quote_post">Don't even mention the word "improvement" because we are all very aware of how potential-limited Shane is. I was a Battier fan when he was with Duke (very ironic because I'm a UNC fan..) but realize the NBA is not the same as NCAA. He might have played PF in college or McD's All-American but all of that don't matter when you come to the NBA to play SF. Battier would get obliterated if he tries to play the post up game in the NBA. He does get rebounds and putbacks, but that isn't the same as saying the guy has any legit NBA post moves.</div> I don't think I ever said the word "improvement". I even pointed out myself that he was drafted so high despite his limited potential. Yet I have to disagree with you about his ability to play in the post, because he spends a lot of time there for the Grizzlies and is damn effective at it too. http://www.82games.com/0506/0506MEM2.HTM Notice how many of the Grizzlies' rotation include Battier playing the four, and notice how many of those rotations are effective. He's a legit power forward just as much as he is a legit small forward. <div class="quote_poster">Quote:</div><div class="quote_post">Keep in mind that Shane doesn't have to worry about offense like Artest. It's way way easier to play just one end of the floor and not concentrating so much on the other end. Shane gets easy open looks and is a role player. He definitely doesn't have to work as hard for his points as Artest.</div> How can you say that the Grizzlies' second leading scorer doesn't have to worry about offense? He's not double teamed, but nor is Artest that frequently. It's not like he can just take possessions off. Actually, I can't think of many players who work as hard for their points as Shane Battier. He's one of the few players in the NBA that will do whatever it takes and risk injury for the better of his team.
<div class="quote_poster">Quoting Voodoo Child:</div><div class="quote_post">It's not like I'm just pulling this argument out of my ass. I've got the stats to back it up. You've just got to be open to new ideas instead of accepting what ESPN/TNT crams down your throat 24/7 about Artest being the best defender in the NBA (not specifically talking about you, Supra). Saying that I'd take Shane over "Ronron" wasn't 100% based on what they'd bring to my team on the court but also how they'd carry themselves off of it. Ron Artest is a headcase (stating the obvious), and Shane Battier is an annual candidate for the sportsmanship award whose works in the community are like nothing I've ever seen from an NBA player after living in four NBA cities. That's why Jerry West will always turn down Artest for Battier. If you think I'm alone on this, you'd be surprised. I've talked to a lot of intelligent fans, like Moo2k4 and Schaddy for example, who agree that Battier is just as valuable, if not more, than Ron Artest.</div> I agree that personality-wise on and off the court, Shane's way ahead of Artest, but I was saying in terms of how good he was exclusively based on skills and talent alone. The whole chemistry and personality thing is definitely a big disadvantage to Ronron, but to me, the gamble on him is worth it. The way I see it, people either play it safe and go with the stable, consistent Battier, or a more volatile, explosive, better Artest. It could just be a difference in style and so there is no right and wrong, but the concensus here is that Artest, with all the risks involving him, is still a better choice than a safe and steady Battier. It might have to do with where both you and I live geographically, I don't know. However, between me and the basketball people I know around here, Artest gets the nod over Shane. <div class="quote_poster">Quoting Voodoo Child:</div><div class="quote_post">As cliche as it sounds, I agree that statistics don't tell the whole story. However, in our day and age, they can tell us a hell of a lot more than you probably think. Sites like 82games.com and databasebasketball.com have just about every statistic out there; it's amazing. Not to sound condescending, but you say that Battier doesn't shut people down night in and night out, yet you live in Los Angeles. How much of Shane Battier can you really see? You can't just go by how much the opposing team's small forward scores, because Battier will only be on that player for about half the game, if that.</div> I have NBA League pass, so I see enough of Battier, Artest and most everybody in the NBA to make my judgement. And yes, I am one of those losers that spend hours in front of the TV switching between games. <div class="quote_poster">Quoting Voodoo Child:</div><div class="quote_post">How can you base Battier's scoring potential based on his rookie season? 14.4 ppg is damn good for a rookie. Artest himself was averaging 31.1 mpg and only scored 11.9 ppg in his second year in the league. Also, since when is 42.9% shooting considered to be very poor? That's about what Ray Allen, Peja Stojakovic, Gilbert Arenas, Chris Webber, and Jason Kidd are averaging this season.</div> The big difference between Shane and the players you mentioned is that they're all stars/superstars that have to carry alot more offensive load, and Shane is a role player. If you shoot 42.9% as a role player, how can you ask the guy to be a star and contribute more? Players traditionally shoot worse when they're given more offensive load to carry and Shane is a good example of that. He took over 12 shots in his rookie season, shot 42.9%, and ever since he took less shots, his FG% has all improved above 44%. This is usually a good indication that the guy is more suitable to be a role player and shouldn't over-extend himself. <div class="quote_poster">Quoting Voodoo Child:</div><div class="quote_post">I don't think I ever said the word "improvement". I even pointed out myself that he was drafted so high despite his limited potential. Yet I have to disagree with you about his ability to play in the post, because he spends a lot of time there for the Grizzlies and is damn effective at it too. http://www.82games.com/0506/0506MEM2.HTM Notice how many of the Grizzlies' rotation include Battier playing the four, and notice how many of those rotations are effective. He's a legit power forward just as much as he is a legit small forward.</div> Fine, if you still want to call him a PF, go ahead. In my opinion there is not one legit and above average power forward in this league today that is only 6'8 outside of Elton Brand. <div class="quote_poster">Quoting Voodoo Child:</div><div class="quote_post">How can you say that the Grizzlies' second leading scorer doesn't have to worry about offense? He's not double teamed, but nor is Artest that frequently. It's not like he can just take possessions off. Actually, I can't think of many players who work as hard for their points as Shane Battier. He's one of the few players in the NBA that will do whatever it takes and risk injury for the better of his team.</div> Battier doesn't have to work for his points the way Artest has to. If you are a coach on the opposing team, your defensive focus would obviously be on Gasol, however here is the tricky part. Memphis is a "One star, lots of good role players" team - a Pistons-like team if you will, except they have one recognizable star. So the rest of the defensive focus spreads equally. Indiana has a more identifiable star hierarchy there. The opposing coach would focus on JO, then Artest, then Sjax, then the others. Shane just doesn't command more defensive attention than Artest. Anyways, we digress. One last note on this though, Shane Battier is indeed underrated. However, I just don't happen to think he's in the same level as Artest defensively nor offensively. Especially offensively. To answer the original topic though, no, I do not think Artest is overrated. He's a big gamble, another extremely talented yet extremely volatile star player.
We talk about Artest being overrated, but on the other hand, Battier is very underrated. Artest is obviously a more talented player. However, the difference between them is small enough that I'd be willing to take Battier over Artest simply because of his personality and attitude.
Artest has the talent to turn a very good team into a championship contender. Battier cannot do that. Artest > Battier.
<div class="quote_poster">Quoting SupraJames:</div><div class="quote_post">I agree that personality-wise on and off the court, Shane's way ahead of Artest, but I was saying in terms of how good he was exclusively based on skills and talent alone. The whole chemistry and personality thing is definitely a big disadvantage to Ronron, but to me, the gamble on him is worth it. The way I see it, people either play it safe and go with the stable, consistent Battier, or a more volatile, explosive, better Artest. It could just be a difference in style and so there is no right and wrong, but the concensus here is that Artest, with all the risks involving him, is still a better choice than a safe and steady Battier. It might have to do with where both you and I live geographically, I don't know. However, between me and the basketball people I know around here, Artest gets the nod over Shane.</div> Well, I know that Artest is the slightly more talented player. I don't think I ever really denied that (or actually, I might have... not sure). Personality is the whole reason I'd rather have Battier though. Good team chemistry is probably the most important thing to have to win games. Just look at Battier's Grizzlies. They traded away Jason Williams, Bonzi Wells, James Posey, and let Stromile Swift leave through free agency. Then they brought in three quality veteran players. While they seemed to have exported more talent than they were importing, the Grizzlies have actually wound up on the better end of all their dealings, and the chemistry of their current roster is so great that they've been able to maintain a top five record in the West. If I'm building a team, I'd sacrifice what small amount of talent I'd be giving up by taking Battier over Artest, because the intangibles that Battier brings to the table are greater than any offense that Artest can bring to the table. <div class="quote_poster">Quote:</div><div class="quote_post">The big difference between Shane and the players you mentioned is that they're all stars/superstars that have to carry alot more offensive load, and Shane is a role player. If you shoot 42.9% as a role player, how can you ask the guy to be a star and contribute more? Players traditionally shoot worse when they're given more offensive load to carry and Shane is a good example of that. He took over 12 shots in his rookie season, shot 42.9%, and ever since he took less shots, his FG% has all improved above 44%. This is usually a good indication that the guy is more suitable to be a role player and shouldn't over-extend himself.</div> Looking at Battier's rookie season, where he shot that 42.9% from the field, he was actually the Grizzlies offensive focal point on many occassions, not a role player. Who else was going to be relied on to carry the offensive load? Rodney Buford? Grant Long? Tony Massenberg? A skinny, inexperienced, rookie Gasol? I realize that as Battier's role with the team changed through the years, his field goal percentage increased, but that's definitely not a sign that a guy is more suitable to be a role player and shouldn't over-extend himself, especially when guys like Allen Iverson are scoring more than 26 ppg on 38.7% shooting. <div class="quote_poster">Quote:</div><div class="quote_post">Fine, if you still want to call him a PF, go ahead. In my opinion there is not one legit and above average power forward in this league today that is only 6'8 outside of Elton Brand.</div> What about Antoine Walker, Reggie Evans, or Michael Sweetney? Also, does this mean that you're saying Artest (6-7) isn't a legit and above average power forward? <div class="quote_poster">Quote:</div><div class="quote_post">We talk about Artest being overrated, but on the other hand, Battier is very underrated. Artest is obviously a more talented player. However, the difference between them is small enough that I'd be willing to take Battier over Artest simply because of his personality and attitude.</div> That's exactly where I'm coming from. Artest may be a better player, but he's not that much more valuable than Shane Battier, or other players like him.
Battier is obviously a good foward, but in reality, Artest is closer to that All Star level to him. Battier plays a role, where Grizzlies need for victories, Mr. Do it everything. But Ron Artest is that guy what he's on the court for the Pacers, they're an elite team Remeber that 62 win season or something? Artest just needs to watch his mouth against the media, cause people are out there trying to get him
I don't think anyone questions Artest's on-court ability. It is rare to see one of the best defensive players in the league that can also score at the same time. But all of that is not worth the distractions, embarassment that he causes for a team. Who knows how many games he will play. He was basically suspended all of last season and now he's not playing beacuse of his trade demand. There are a couple of screws loose somewhere there and it's unpredictable whether he will go off again. Until he finds a way to fix this, his value around the league will not be where it should be for a top 10-15 player in the league.
<div class="quote_poster">Quoting babybulls:</div><div class="quote_post"> Lastly, you are hating, artest is an all-star talent </div> I dont care Ill hate artest until i die. ill even make a song about it Hata: I hate you ron ron lalalalalalala His stupid trade demanding ass.. just go away ron ron i hate you so much just go away away away away away away away away YA! now mr overrated ron ron stop bragging about how you suck I know your a "tru warier" but damn, give me some luck. by luck I mean go away away away away away away away away NAW! you guys like my skillz?
<div class="quote_poster">Quoting Voodoo Child:</div><div class="quote_post">Well, I know that Artest is the slightly more talented player..</div> slightly? are you on crack?
Artest with Chicago: 99-00: 17-65 00-01: 15-67 01-02: 21-61 Artest had 2 1/2 abysmal seasons with chicago. Then came to Indy and played two decent years then wasted two more years. Right now Artest has had 2 good seasons out of his seven years in the league. I can totally understand why VC thinks Ron Artest is less valuable than Shane Battier. I would probably agree with him that I would take Battier over Artest if I had seen more games with Battier. From the games I've seen of Battier it seems he is a solid defender, on the perimeter and post, he is a team player and leader by example. Artest seems like a good guy, but he seems to want attention and glory. He is a talented player, however his distractions can be more detrimental to a team than his contributions.
<div class="quote_poster">Quoting Voodoo Child:</div><div class="quote_post">Guess what, Ron Artest isn't the best player on his team either. What does that have to do with anything anyway? We're comparing the talent levels of two players, not the talent levels of their teams. What does the fact that he's from Duke have to do with anything either? If he was from Puerto Rico, I'm sure you'd be all over the guy. As for reaching his potential, anyone who knows anything could have told you that he didn't have that great of potential entering the draft. He wasn't drafted for his potential though. He was drafted because of his NBA readiness, his defense, his leadership, and his intangibles. If anything, their draft position hurts your argument, so I don't know why you'd even bring it up. You're not understanding that Battier HAS reached his full potential. Scouts knew there wasn't that much room for him to grow, and yet he was still drafted #6 overall. That says a lot about the kid's abilities. First of all, don't mix up his FG% and his 3 pt%. For just basic FG%, he's shooting 52% and that's on 210 shots. It's his three point percentage that's at 49%, and 47 three pointers is actually a large number at this point of the season. It's about the equivilent to just under 200 three pointers on the year, so no, it's far from irrelevant. You fail to mention that the one year he averaged double digits was in his rookie season, where he averaged 14.4 ppg. That should tell you a hell of a lot about the circumstances that Battier is in. Obviously he is capable of putting up numbers well beyond 14.4 ppg, because he did that his rookie season. However, ever since that season, he's had coaches like Hubie Brown and Mike Fratello who don't play him a lot of minutes and don't utilize him in a way that will allow for gaudy point per game averages. But you'd have to be a fool to say that Battier couldn't put up well over 15 ppg if he went back to a system like the one Sydney Lowe ran. I'd take Shane Battier on my team over Ron Artest 6 times out of 10. In fact, the Grizzlies have even turned down an offer of Artest for Battier before. That should tell you all you need to know. Saying that Battier doesn't have a post game like Artest is just plain uneducated. Do a fact check or something, because Shane Battier was a McDonald's All-American at power forward and the National Player of the Year in the NCAA at power forward. Also, like I mentioned earlier, the second most effective rotation that the Grizzlies run, according to 82games.com, has Shane Battier playing power forward. As for creating his own shot, have you even seen Battier play? Battier is all over the place offensively. I want the minute of my life back it took to read that crap. First of all, you can't just judge a players defense by how many points an opposing player who is labeled at the same position scores against his team, especially with a player like Battier who plays up to four positions. Second of all, 82games.com is perhaps the most advanced and accurate statistical website on the internet. They have crunched the numbers, including the ones that don't show up in the little box scores you just wasted your time copying into your post, and Battier came up as the #1 defensive small forward. Anyone who has ever seen Shane Battier play basketball knows that he's a lockdown defender. How many times do I need to explain to you that it's nearly impossible for anyone to put up gaudy numbers in the Grizzlies' system? You act like Shane Battier and Ron Artest have played the same offensive roles on their teams, but that's completely untrue. Ron Artest is definitely utilized more by the Pacers than Battier is by the Grizzlies, and that shows up in statistics like field goal attempts, which as you can see by the ones I posted earlier, Artest takes a considerable more amount of attempts than Battier. Did you perhaps forget to read the title of this thread? "Artest <u>Overrated</u>?" If the subject of debate is Artest's rate then why the hell would it matter if a group of voters picked him on an All-NBA team? Isn't that what this whole thread is about, saying those people are wrong? It's not like those awards are 100% accurate or based on statistical evidence. They're completely subjective and thus subject to argument, hence this thread.</div> dude you got pwned
