<div class="quote_poster">Quote:</div><div class="quote_post">There’s no question Kidd is a good defender, but he’s not getting any younger and is just getting more expensive. Also, Kidd is as good a defender at the point guard position as Martin is at the power forward position. With Camby getting injured so frequently, dealing Martin is a great insurance policy for the Nuggets’ frontcourt. </div> Let me ask you this, who has been injured more since Martin arrived, him or Camby? Who's insurance for who? <div class="quote_poster">Quote:</div><div class="quote_post">He looked for his shot last night because he was shooting well at 8-17 (47%), but normally Andre Miller is the definition of a pure point guard, and it shows in his 8.2 assists per game. Kidd is a better defender, but Andre is a sound defensive player, so there won’t be a significant upgrade on defense.</div> Miller is always looking for his shot. He's no the definition of a pure point gaurd. Marbury's been averaging 8 assists all his career and he's far from it. Iverson's been averagin above 7 for the last two seasons and he's further from a pure point gaurd. Whenever I watch Miller he's always looking for the lane or shot. He seems to only pass when he's definitely sure he will be credited with an assist. Not to take away from him too much he is a positive player, but at the same time there is a reason why he has had so many mediocre seasons while Kidd has won so many and still continue to do so. <div class="quote_poster">Quote:</div><div class="quote_post">Carmelo Anthony will only be as good as he wants to be. Shawn Marion and Richard Jefferson all have very good work ethics. I don’t know about Anthony, so I won’t comment on it. Anthony’s biggest flaws are his shot selection and his defense. I’m sure Miller has talked about that to him, as did coach Karl, so what can Kidd do that Miller and Anthony can’t do?</div> Being sure isn't being there. RJ and Shawn came into this league without a jumpshot and played mediocre defense. All that changed under Kidd. Kenyon wasn't as optimized unless he was with Kidd. Kidd's a leader. Andre Miller has yet to show those qualities, so I'm sure there is much that Kidd can do that Miller cannot. <div class="quote_poster">Quote:</div><div class="quote_post">I don’t think the Nuggets will accept that. Miller and Martin will give you more production than just one Jason Kidd. Let’s also not forget his knee, age, and contract are issues, too.</div> I never said the Nuggets would accept the trade. Unfortunately, I think you haven't seen enough Jason Kidd present and past to really understand his impact in the game. Not your fault, I believe he's one of the most underrated players in the league. Martin comes with the same problems as Kidd, if not more so. Martin is struggling to stay healthy, more so than Kidd, and he's not getting any younger and getting much older. He's already older than Dirk and being paid close to his salary. Andre has what, three playoff wins under his belt? Going from Andre and Martin to Kidd would be an upgrade now for the Nuggets, I garuntee you that. It's the future, and I would say around 3 years from now, that that makes GMs balk, and that is understandable.
<div class="quote_poster">Quoting nextlevelgame:</div><div class="quote_post">Let me ask you this, who has been injured more since Martin arrived, him or Camby? Who's insurance for who?</div> Camby has been injured more since the arrival of Kenyon. That doesn?t matter though. Let me ask you this, who has been injured more throughout their careers, and who has been known as a more injury-prone player? <div class="quote_poster">Quote:</div><div class="quote_post">Miller is always looking for his shot. He's no the definition of a pure point gaurd. Marbury's been averaging 8 assists all his career and he's far from it. Iverson's been averagin above 7 for the last two seasons and he's further from a pure point gaurd. Whenever I watch Miller he's always looking for the lane or shot. He seems to only pass when he's definitely sure he will be credited with an assist. Not to take away from him too much he is a positive player, but at the same time there is a reason why he has had so many mediocre seasons while Kidd has won so many and still continue to do so.</div> Miller averages 11 shot attempts throughout his career. Marbury averages 17 shot attempts throughout his career. Marbury averages 20.5 points throughout his career and Miller averages 13.5 points per game. You can?t compare these two type of players; they are clearly two different types. How could someone who is always looking for his shot be only averaging 11 shot attempts? I?m sorry, but you can?t lead the league in assists by always looking for your shot. <div class="quote_poster">Quote:</div><div class="quote_post">Being sure isn't being there. RJ and Shawn came into this league without a jumpshot and played mediocre defense. All that changed under Kidd. Kenyon wasn't as optimized unless he was with Kidd. Kidd's a leader. Andre Miller has yet to show those qualities, so I'm sure there is much that Kidd can do that Miller cannot.</div> Just about all rookies come into the league without any jumpshots. It?s as time passes and they grow into better players they develop jumpers. I can assure you if Kidd never played with Marion or Jefferson they would develop jump shots to their games. It?s just their work ethic and will to get better; not because of Jason Kidd. Kidd can?t give you a jumper ? you have to get it yourself. Both Marion and Jefferson came from college with defense being their specialties. Making the transition from the NCAA to the NBA isn?t overnight. Of course they struggled early on, but they were bound to get better eventually. Kidd might have told them how to be better defensively, but honestly, anyone could have done that. Do you think if Kidd never played with them they would be any less of players? <div class="quote_poster">Quote:</div><div class="quote_post">I never said the Nuggets would accept the trade.</div> If you don?t think the Nuggets will accept the trade, what?s the problem? <div class="quote_poster">Quote:</div><div class="quote_post">Unfortunately, I think you haven't seen enough Jason Kidd present and past to really understand his impact in the game. Not your fault, I believe he's one of the most underrated players in the league. Martin comes with the same problems as Kidd, if not more so. Martin is struggling to stay healthy, more so than Kidd, and he's not getting any younger and getting much older. He's already older than Dirk and being paid close to his salary. Andre has what, three playoff wins under his belt? Going from Andre and Martin to Kidd would be an upgrade now for the Nuggets, I garuntee you that. It's the future, and I would say around 3 years from now, that that makes GMs balk, and that is understandable.</div> I?ve seen plenty of Jason Kidd and I am fully aware of the impact he has on his game. I even said in this very thread there aren?t many point guards who can match his production, but Kidd simply isn?t an upgrade over Martin and Miller. He can?t match both of them defensively, he can?t outrebound both of them, he can?t guard both power forward and point guard at the same time, and he?s not as much of a threat offensively as them. Besides, what?s the point of this debate if you, by your own admission, think the Nuggets won?t accept the trade?
<div class="quote_poster">Quote:</div><div class="quote_post">Camby has been injured more since the arrival of Kenyon. That doesn’t matter though. Let me ask you this, who has been injured more throughout their careers, and who has been known as a more injury-prone player?</div> Actually both have injury ridden careers. Since we drafted him, he's had leg problems. In college he shattered his foot. And now Kenyon is visibly in pain everytime I see him. And since you all like to deal with the now, it's obvious that Kenyon will be more injury prone than Camby will in the future. <div class="quote_poster">Quote:</div><div class="quote_post">Miller averages 11 shot attempts throughout his career. Marbury averages 17 shot attempts throughout his career. Marbury averages 20.5 points throughout his career and Miller averages 13.5 points per game. You can’t compare these two type of players; they are clearly two different types.</div> I didn't realize you can't compare point gaurds. <div class="quote_poster">Quote:</div><div class="quote_post">How could someone who is always looking for his shot be only averaging 11 shot attempts? I’m sorry, but you can’t lead the league in assists by always looking for your shot.</div> What does that mean? He led the league, what 4 years ago? He hasn't even come close then and he has better talent around him now. <div class="quote_poster">Quote:</div><div class="quote_post">If you don’t think the Nuggets will accept the trade, what’s the problem?</div> I don't know, you're the one who started the arguement. <div class="quote_poster">Quote:</div><div class="quote_post">I’ve seen plenty of Jason Kidd and I am fully aware of the impact he has on his game. I even said in this very thread there aren’t many point guards who can match his production, but Kidd simply isn’t an upgrade over Martin and Miller.</div> I feel there's a contradiction in there somewhere... <div class="quote_poster">Quote:</div><div class="quote_post">He can’t match both of them defensively, he can’t outrebound both of them, he can’t guard both power forward and point guard at the same time, and he’s not as much of a threat offensively as them.</div> If you add up the points, rebounds, and assists that Lamar, Caron, and Brian Grant produce, it's greater than Shaq. You can't look at this from a numbers perspective. I'm talking about a winner. A guy who wins wherever he goes. Something Martin and Miller have not done on their own in their respective career. <div class="quote_poster">Quote:</div><div class="quote_post">Besides, what’s the point of this debate if you, by your own admission, think the Nuggets won’t accept the trade?</div> I don't know, you started quoting me first. I never said anything in response to yours first. So if you want this to end, stop quoting me.
<div class="quote_poster">Quoting nextlevelgame:</div><div class="quote_post">Actually both have injury ridden careers. Since we drafted him, he's had leg problems. In college he shattered his foot. And now Kenyon is visibly in pain everytime I see him. And since you all like to deal with the now, it's obvious that Kenyon will be more injury prone than Camby will in the future.</div> Out of a possible 434 career games, Martin has played 370. So, all in all, Martin has played 85% of the games in his career. Out of a possible 762 career games, Camby has played 511. So, all in all, Camby has played 67% of his game. That’s all most a 20% difference. Camby all throughout his career has been plagued by many more injuries than Martin has. <div class="quote_poster">Quote:</div><div class="quote_post">I didn't realize you can't compare point gaurds.</div> Meaning, there is no comparison. They’re totally different players. <div class="quote_poster">Quote:</div><div class="quote_post">What does that mean? He led the league, what 4 years ago? He hasn't even come close then and he has better talent around him now.</div> So, before he was pass-first, now he’s score-first? His game hasn’t changed since then. <div class="quote_poster">Quote:</div><div class="quote_post">I don't know, you're the one who started the arguement.</div> You said: “I say Nets to [Denver] for Andre Miller and hopefully Kenyon, but with Nene out I doubt Kenyon is available.” And now you’re saying you don’t think Denver would accept the trade. Why propose a trade that you don’t think the other team will accept? <div class="quote_poster">Quote:</div><div class="quote_post">I feel there's a contradiction in there somewhere...</div> Nope, noticed I said Miller and Martin. <div class="quote_poster">Quote:</div><div class="quote_post">If you add up the points, rebounds, and assists that Lamar, Caron, and Brian Grant produce, it's greater than Shaq. You can't look at this from a numbers perspective. I'm talking about a winner. A guy who wins wherever he goes. Something Martin and Miller have not done on their own in their respective career.</div> I didn’t only say it’s a statistical upgrade. If I wanted to, I would have simply added up the numbers and post them. I said those two will have a better defensive presence combined, they have a better offensive presence combined, and can ultimately do more on the court combined. Martin is a winner and was a big help for Jason Kidd in the finals. I strongly doubt Kidd could advance so far without the presence of Martin and visa versa. <div class="quote_poster">Quote:</div><div class="quote_post">I don't know, you started quoting me first. I never said anything in response to yours first. So if you want this to end, stop quoting me.</div> I quoted you saying explain to me why Denver would accept this trade. You say, I don’t think they’ll accept this trade either. My intentions are to receive justification for this trade scenario, but you don’t think it will go down, so what’s the point? If that’s the case I can say, I think the Knicks should trade Jerome James for LeBron James despite the fact it has no chance in ever happening.
<div class="quote_poster">Quote:</div><div class="quote_post">Out of a possible 434 career games, Martin has played 370. So, all in all, Martin has played 85% of the games in his career. Out of a possible 762 career games, Camby has played 511. So, all in all, Camby has played 67% of his game. That’s all most a 20% difference. Camby all throughout his career has been plagued by many more injuries than Martin has.</div> Irrelevant given that Camby hasn't been as injury prone as Martin the last two years. <div class="quote_poster">Quote:</div><div class="quote_post">Meaning, there is no comparison. They’re totally different players.</div> That's ridiculous. That means you can't rank either Marbury ahead of Miller or vice versa cause that would be comparing to the two point gaurds. You can't say one is better than the other because that would be comparing. It just seems like you dug yourself into a hole. <div class="quote_poster">Quote:</div><div class="quote_post">So, before he was pass-first, now he’s score-first? His game hasn’t changed since then. </div> Of course it has, if you bothered noticing. <div class="quote_poster">Quote:</div><div class="quote_post">I didn’t only say it’s a statistical upgrade. If I wanted to, I would have simply added up the numbers and post them. I said those two will have a better defensive presence combined, they have a better offensive presence combined, and can ultimately do more on the court combined. Martin is a winner and was a big help for Jason Kidd in the finals. I strongly doubt Kidd could advance so far without the presence of Martin and visa versa.</div> Back pedalling. <div class="quote_poster">Quote:</div><div class="quote_post">. My intentions are to receive justification for this trade scenario, but you don’t think it will go down, so what’s the point?</div> I don't know, you're the one who keeps going for it. Stop, it's so easy. <div class="quote_poster">Quote:</div><div class="quote_post">If that’s the case I can say, I think the Knicks should trade Jerome James for LeBron James despite the fact it has no chance in ever happening.</div> Yeah you should say that. And you'd like it too, huh?
Jason Kidd IMO should not be traded from the Nets. Jason Kidd IMO is underrated on the defensive end. He is one of the best defensive guards in the league even at his age. His passing and court vision are always too valuabe to pass up on. He can hit it from the outside. He can rebound. HE has a complete game. I think Net fans would hate it too seeing as how they wouldn't get any stars in return for Kidd. IMO if someone is to be traded it should be Vince Carter. He isn't having the season this year he was last year with the Nets. The Nets are still VERY weak in the front court. IF the Nets could pull off a KG for Carter deal which seems unlikely anymore but, they would become contenders.
<div class="quote_poster">Quoting nextlevelgame:</div><div class="quote_post">Irrelevant given that Camby hasn't been as injury prone as Martin the last two years.</div> It?s not irrelevant. Although he?s had more injuries than Camby the past two years, it doesn?t mean Camby?s more durable. It doesn?t really matter though, Denver won?t add Martin in the trade regardless of whether Camby is injured or not. <div class="quote_poster">Quote:</div><div class="quote_post">That's ridiculous. That means you can't rank either Marbury ahead of Miller or vice versa cause that would be comparing to the two point gaurds. You can't say one is better than the other because that would be comparing. It just seems like you dug yourself into a hole.</div> That?s not what I was saying. I?ll try to make this clear for you. Marbury and Miller don?t have much if any similarities to their games. Clear? <div class="quote_poster">Quote:</div><div class="quote_post">Of course it has, if you bothered noticing.</div> If Miller always looks for his shot, why does he only average 10.6 shot attempts per game? I don?t know what Andre Miller you?ve been watching, but the one on Denver is a pass-first point guard. <div class="quote_poster">Quote:</div><div class="quote_post">Back pedalling.</div> Read my post carefully. Nowhere was there backpedaling. <div class="quote_poster">Quote:</div><div class="quote_post">I don't know, you're the one who keeps going for it. Stop, it's so easy.</div> First you said, I think we should trade Kidd for Martin and Miller. Then you say, I don?t think the trade will go down. My question to you is, why would you post a trade scenario that you don?t think will go down?
<div class="quote_poster">Quote:</div><div class="quote_post">It’s not irrelevant. Although he’s had more injuries than Camby the past two years, it doesn’t mean Camby’s more durable. It doesn’t really matter though, Denver won’t add Martin in the trade regardless of whether Camby is injured or not.</div> Sure it does. Jason Kidd was relatively uninjure his entire career yet everyone cites last season as when his knees are going to get bad. Kenyon has had more problems with his knees and legs than Jason did, but Jason is now has the injury label on him. Same applies here. Kenyon's barely making 20 minutes a game and Camby has been beasting. Kenyon's more injury prone. <div class="quote_poster">Quote:</div><div class="quote_post">That’s not what I was saying. I’ll try to make this clear for you. Marbury and Miller don’t have much if any similarities to their games. Clear?</div> Very fun to back pedal isn't it? <div class="quote_poster">Quote:</div><div class="quote_post">If Miller always looks for his shot, why does he only average 10.6 shot attempts per game? I don’t know what Andre Miller you’ve been watching, but the one on Denver is a pass-first point guard.</div> I didn't say always, just that he first looks for it. <div class="quote_poster">Quote:</div><div class="quote_post">Read my post carefully. Nowhere was there backpedaling. </div> Perhaps you should read it carefully. <div class="quote_poster">Quote:</div><div class="quote_post">First you said, I think we should trade Kidd for Martin and Miller. Then you say, I don’t think the trade will go down. My question to you is, why would you post a trade scenario that you don’t think will go down?</div> If you read carefully, I said "hopefully Kenyon" being that Jason is worth ten times Andre alone. However, you went on the assumption that I meant and Martin. Unfortunately, you made the reading error, not me.
<div class="quote_poster">Quote:</div><div class="quote_post">Sure it does. Jason Kidd was relatively uninjure his entire career yet everyone cites last season as when his knees are going to get bad. Kenyon has had more problems with his knees and legs than Jason did, but Jason is now has the injury label on him. Same applies here. Kenyon's barely making 20 minutes a game and Camby has been beasting. Kenyon's more injury prone.</div> It wasn?t only last season. Kidd missed plenty of games the previous season, too. Kenyon isn?t barely making 20 minutes a game. He?s averaging 27.3 minutes per game. All because Camby managed to stay somewhat healthy the last two seasons, doesn?t mean he?s less prone to injury then Kenyon. <div class="quote_poster">Quote:</div><div class="quote_post">Very fun to back pedal isn't it?</div> I?m not changing my answers. I don?t think you understood my original ones. All I said was Marbury and Miller don?t have many if any similarities, so for you to compare Marbury a shoot-first point guard to Miller a pass-first point guard you won?t find any comparisons. <div class="quote_poster">Quote:</div><div class="quote_post">I didn't say always, just that he first looks for it.</div> You on post #21: Miller is always looking for his shot. Very fun to backpedal, isn?t it? <div class="quote_poster">Quote:</div><div class="quote_post">Perhaps you should read it carefully.</div> I did, so would you mind pointing it out for me? <div class="quote_poster">Quote:</div><div class="quote_post">If you read carefully, I said "hopefully Kenyon" being that Jason is worth ten times Andre alone. However, you went on the assumption that I meant and Martin. Unfortunately, you made the reading error, not me.</div> I assumed you wanted to trade Kidd for Miller and Martin. When you said ?hopefully? Martin, would did you mean?
<div class="quote_poster">Quote:</div><div class="quote_post">It wasn’t only last season. Kidd missed plenty of games the previous season, too. Kenyon isn’t barely making 20 minutes a game. He’s averaging 27.3 minutes per game. All because Camby managed to stay somewhat healthy the last two seasons, doesn’t mean he’s less prone to injury then Kenyon.</div> A career 33+ minute players gets limited to 27 minutes. What do you think that means? <div class="quote_poster">Quote:</div><div class="quote_post">You on post #21: Miller is always looking for his shot. Very fun to backpedal, isn’t it?</div> Took my cue from you. <div class="quote_poster">Quote:</div><div class="quote_post">I’m not changing my answers. I don’t think you understood my original ones. All I said was Marbury and Miller don’t have many if any similarities, so for you to compare Marbury a shoot-first point guard to Miller a pass-first point guard you won’t find any comparisons.</div> It still doesn't make any sense. I can compare point gaurds. That's how it's done. You compare point gaurds to see who's better and who's worse. Andre and Marbury are not apple and oranges, they're both point gaurds. They have different games but I as well as anyone can compare. <div class="quote_poster">Quote:</div><div class="quote_post">I assumed you wanted to trade Kidd for Miller and Martin. When you said “hopefully” Martin, would did you mean?</div> Assumed wrong.
