Who's "Best" at each position?

Who's "Best" at each position?

John Hollinger's "advanced stats" for measuring players are now available on ESPN.com and are updated daily. They give a pretty good indication of who's playing the best overall over the course of the season, and also at each position. However, the ratings don't do a particularly good job of incorporating defensive ability (beyond accounting for defensive rebounds, blocks, and steals).

Some players who have missed games early in the season don't qualify. For instance, McGrady would rank 3rd amongst SF, and just ahead of Kobe in the overall list.

Here's the top 10 lists right now:

Overall:
1 Elton Brand, LAC 28.79
2 LeBron James, CLE 28.46
3 Allen Iverson, PHI 28.07
4 Tim Duncan, SAS 27.75
5 Dwyane Wade, MIA 27.61
6 Dirk Nowitzki, DAL 26.71
7 Paul Pierce, BOS 26.42
8 Kevin Garnett, MIN 26.14
9 Chauncey Billups, DET 25.29
10 Kobe Bryant, LAL 24.37


PG:
1 Allen Iverson, PHI 28.07
2 Chauncey Billups, DET 25.29
3 Gilbert Arenas, WAS 22.3
4 Tony Parker, SAS 22.1
5 Chris Paul, NOR 21.36
6 Steve Nash, PHO 21.26
7 Mo Williams, MIL 19.91
8 Jason Terry, DAL 19.69
9 Brevin Knight, CHA 19.52
10 Sam Cassell, LAC 19.05

SG:
1 Dwyane Wade, MIA 27.61
2 Paul Pierce, BOS 26.42
3 Kobe Bryant, LAL 24.37
4 Michael Redd, MIL 22.92
5 Manu Ginobili, SAS 21.71
6 Ray Allen, SEA 21.12
7 Vince Carter, NJN 20.73
8 Richard Hamilton, DET 19.31
9 Jason Richardson, GSW 18.53
10 Luol Deng, CHI 18.51

SF:
1 LeBron James, CLE 28.46
2 Paul Pierce, BOS 26.42
3 Rashard Lewis, SEA 22.36
4 Carmelo Anthony, DEN 21.69
5 Vince Carter, NJN 20.73
6 Caron Butler, WAS 20
7 Lamar Odom, LAL 19.88
8 Richard Jefferson, NJN 19.74
9 Wally Szczerbiak, MIN 19.71
10 Ron Artest, IND 18.85

PF:
1 Elton Brand, LAC 28.79
2 Tim Duncan, SAS 27.75
3 Dirk Nowitzki, DAL 26.71
4 Kevin Garnett, MIN 26.14
5 Jermaine O'Neal, IND 22.99
6 Chris Bosh, TOR 22.93
7 Pau Gasol, MEM 21.47
8 Shawn Marion, PHO 21.09
9 Rasheed Wallace, DET 20.92
10 Mehmet Okur, UTH 19.85

C:
1 Tim Duncan, SAS 27.75
2 Marcus Camby, DEN 23.2
3 Jermaine O'Neal, IND 22.99
4 Chris Bosh, TOR 22.93
5 Yao Ming, HOU 22.5
6 Zydrunas Ilgauskas, CLE 21.89
7 Channing Frye, NYK 21.18
8 Rasheed Wallace, DET 20.92
9 Mehmet Okur, UTH 19.85
10 Brad Miller, SAC 19.17

 

lol @ Caron and Wally better than Ronald

 

Those list suck. ELton Brand even with his amazing season is not the best player in the league. Cjauncy Billups a top 10 player? Rip Hamilton, Ben Wallace, Rasheed Wallace are all better players than him IMO and that's just his team.

Mo Williams on the top 10 PG list? He's not even the best PG on his team. Lol Deng is a bit high on his list too. I guess it's an ok list. Sam Cassell should be higher though.

 

I wonder what system he used to determine who's best?

 

Worth comparing to Rosenbaum's blog I guess, though his stuff hasn't been updated since he seems to have been hired by a team as a consultant.

http://danrosenbaum.blogspot.com/

 

<div class="quote_poster">Quoting durvasa:</div><div class="quote_post">John Hollinger's "advanced stats" for measuring players are now available on ESPN.com and are updated daily. They give a pretty good indication of who's playing the best overall over the course of the season, and also at each position. However, the ratings don't do a particularly good job of incorporating defensive ability (beyond accounting for defensive rebounds, blocks, and steals).

Some players who have missed games early in the season don't qualify. For instance, McGrady would rank 3rd amongst SF, and just ahead of Kobe in the overall list.

Here's the top 10 lists right now:

Overall:
1 Elton Brand, LAC 28.79
2 LeBron James, CLE 28.46
3 Allen Iverson, PHI 28.07
4 Tim Duncan, SAS 27.75
5 Dwyane Wade, MIA 27.61
6 Dirk Nowitzki, DAL 26.71
7 Paul Pierce, BOS 26.42
8 Kevin Garnett, MIN 26.14
9 Chauncey Billups, DET 25.29
10 Kobe Bryant, LAL 24.37


PG:
1 Allen Iverson, PHI 28.07
2 Chauncey Billups, DET 25.29
3 Gilbert Arenas, WAS 22.3
4 Tony Parker, SAS 22.1
5 Chris Paul, NOR 21.36
6 Steve Nash, PHO 21.26
7 Mo Williams, MIL 19.91
8 Jason Terry, DAL 19.69
9 Brevin Knight, CHA 19.52
10 Sam Cassell, LAC 19.05

SG:
1 Dwyane Wade, MIA 27.61
2 Paul Pierce, BOS 26.42
3 Kobe Bryant, LAL 24.37
4 Michael Redd, MIL 22.92
5 Manu Ginobili, SAS 21.71
6 Ray Allen, SEA 21.12
7 Vince Carter, NJN 20.73
8 Richard Hamilton, DET 19.31
9 Jason Richardson, GSW 18.53
10 Luol Deng, CHI 18.51

SF:
1 LeBron James, CLE 28.46
2 Paul Pierce, BOS 26.42
3 Rashard Lewis, SEA 22.36
4 Carmelo Anthony, DEN 21.69
5 Vince Carter, NJN 20.73
6 Caron Butler, WAS 20
7 Lamar Odom, LAL 19.88
8 Richard Jefferson, NJN 19.74
9 Wally Szczerbiak, MIN 19.71
10 Ron Artest, IND 18.85

PF:
1 Elton Brand, LAC 28.79
2 Tim Duncan, SAS 27.75
3 Dirk Nowitzki, DAL 26.71
4 Kevin Garnett, MIN 26.14
5 Jermaine O'Neal, IND 22.99
6 Chris Bosh, TOR 22.93
7 Pau Gasol, MEM 21.47
8 Shawn Marion, PHO 21.09
9 Rasheed Wallace, DET 20.92
10 Mehmet Okur, UTH 19.85

C:
1 Tim Duncan, SAS 27.75
2 Marcus Camby, DEN 23.2
3 Jermaine O'Neal, IND 22.99
4 Chris Bosh, TOR 22.93
5 Yao Ming, HOU 22.5
6 Zydrunas Ilgauskas, CLE 21.89
7 Channing Frye, NYK 21.18
8 Rasheed Wallace, DET 20.92
9 Mehmet Okur, UTH 19.85
10 Brad Miller, SAC 19.17</div>

wow, dude, gimme some of that crack you're smoking, you gotta be stoned to make these lists. did shaq die or something?

 

<div class="quote_poster">Quote:</div><div class="quote_post">

wow, dude, gimme some of that crack you're smoking, you gotta be stoned to make these lists. did shaq die or something?</div>
Did you read the entire post at all instead of just skipping to the lists?

 

Yeah guys cool down, its a mathematic system used by certain NBA columnists and teams (Cuban has been known to use them) to measure players. its similar to Major League Baseball's Moneyball approach done primarily by Billy Beane, its not an OFFICAL best of list, but it measures overall efficiency on the court in terms of teams points scored while their on the floor as well as rebounds and points while on the floor.

 

<div class="quote_poster">Quote:</div><div class="quote_post">wow, dude, gimme some of that crack you're smoking, you gotta be stoned to make these lists. did shaq die or something?</div>
Did you forget how to read? First of all he didn't make the list, secondly these lists are based on production, thirdly, any sane person knows that Shaq's production [16.6 PPG | 7.2 RPG | 2.2 BPG | 45.5% FG] so far this year is far from being spectacular.

 

What I would like to see in a list like this is stats on how many points under average you can hold your man too, because that would give a much better indication on how good a defender is. Of course, then you would have to take in to account exactly how many minutes player A held player B, and then multiply by something to make it per 48 minutes.

 

The rankings are based on PER (Player Efficiency Ranking), this season.

It's a per-minute measure of a player's production on the court, adjusted for team's pace. They're also adjusted such that the league average is 15. So, player's above 20 are at all-star level, and if they're above 25 they're probaby a superstar. If they're over 30, they're having an absolutely brilliant season. It takes into account shooting efficiency, assists, turnovers, steals, blocks, and rebounds.

I put "Best" in quotes in the title of the thread, because there's really no objective way of measuring who the best players are. But these lists show, using actual concrete evidence available for this season, who's been doing the most for their team. Intangibles like leadership, clutchness, drawing attention of defense, and other aspects that aren't measured well by stats (like one-on-one defense) are not incorporated obviously.

For some perspective, here are the top 10 leaders in PER since the 2000 season. You'll find that Shaquille O'neal is pretty well represented on these lists.

2000
1 Shaquille O'Neal 30.64
2 Karl Malone 27.09
3 Alonzo Mourning 25.75
4 Tim Duncan 24.78
5 David Robinson 24.55
6 Grant Hill 24.49
7 Kevin Garnett 23.61
8 Gary Payton 23.59
9 Chris Webber 23.43
10 Vince Carter 23.36

2001
1 Shaquille O'Neal 30.23
2 Vince Carter 24.97
3 Tracy McGrady 24.86
4 Karl Malone 24.67
5 Chris Webber 24.64
6 Kobe Bryant 24.41
7 Allen Iverson 23.89
8 Kevin Garnett 23.85
9 Tim Duncan 23.82
10 David Robinson 23.72

2002
1 Shaquille O'Neal 29.67
2 Tim Duncan 27.01
3 Tracy McGrady 25.11
4 Chris Webber 24.42
5 Dirk Nowitzki 24.12
6 Kevin Garnett 23.8
7 Elton Brand 23.62
8 Kobe Bryant 23.21
9 Gary Payton 22.93
10 Paul Pierce 22.29

2003
1 Tracy McGrady 30.27
2 Shaquille O'Neal 29.49
3 Tim Duncan 26.93
4 Kevin Garnett 26.36
5 Kobe Bryant 26.17
6 Dirk Nowitzki 25.54
7 Paul Pierce 22.69
8 Steve Nash 22.59
9 Sam Cassell 22.3
10 Jason Kidd 22.18

2004
1 Kevin Garnett 29.44
2 Tim Duncan 27.06
3 Tracy McGrady 25.28
4 Shaquille O'Neal 24.42
5 Kobe Bryant 23.66
6 Elton Brand 23.23
7 Sam Cassell 22.84
8 Andrei Kirilenko 22.63
9 Dirk Nowitzki 22.53
10 Yao Ming 21.85

2005
1 Kevin Garnett 28.2
2 Tim Duncan 27.04
3 Shaquille O'Neal 26.95
4 Amare Stoudemire 26.64
5 Dirk Nowitzki 26.07
6 LeBron James 25.67
7 Kobe Bryant 23.27
8 Allen Iverson 23.21
9 Yao Ming 23.18
10 Dwyane Wade 23.13

 

<div class="quote_poster">Quoting Bahir:</div><div class="quote_post">What I would like to see in a list like this is stats on how many points under average you can hold your man too, because that would give a much better indication on how good a defender is. Of course, then you would have to take in to account exactly how many minutes player A held player B, and then multiply by something to make it per 48 minutes.</div>

I don't have a top 10 list for that, but you can see the PER players have been able to hold their assigned player on defense at 82games.com. Defense isn't something that can be captured very well with stats like these, however, since it's much more of a team thing. Also, great individual defenders often draw the toughest assignments (like Bowen or Artest) and so their opponents average rating might still seem high.

 

I think the lists are good for what they're meant for, they're just supposed to talk about stats, artest isn't as high as others because his offensive stats aren't as good and defense isn't taken into account enough, it's not saying that elton brand is the best player in the league, but he is definatly having as good of a season as anyone else in the league.

 

Until the league magically comes up with some stats that measure things like perimeter defense ability, this list is pointless.

How can you make a list of the best overall players when nearly all nba stats are offensive? That's why a guy like Dirk is ahead of a guy like KG. Sure Dirk's more versatile offensively and has no range, but he also plays no defense whatsoever. So how is he better all around than KG??

 

<div class="quote_poster">Quoting Jurassic:</div><div class="quote_post">Until the league magically comes up with some stats that measure things like perimeter defense ability, this list is pointless.

How can you make a list of the best overall players when nearly all nba stats are offensive? That's why a guy like Dirk is ahead of a guy like KG. Sure Dirk's more versatile offensively and has no range, but he also plays no defense whatsoever. So how is he better all around than KG??</div>

KG is having a down year this year (rebounding way down), though, and he's still just a fraction behind Dirk on this rating. He's been consistently ahead of him the last 4 years. It's an exxageration to say Dirk plays no defense, by the way. He's improved in that area, and he's been a very good defensive rebounder.

The PER does as good a job as any rating of summarizing contributions that are easily recordable. I think its more accurate, personally, than most people's "intuition" of who's the best. It's not a be-all, end-all stat, but it's not pointless either. It is safe to say that players like Bowen will be vastly underrated, however.

If there are two players with roughly similar defensive abilities (in terms of position defense and making rotations), and one's PER is better than the others, than he's probably having the better season.

 

A rookie(Paul) beating the MVP(Nash) in the points in the rankings. It tells you how good that fella Paul is.

 

Interesting to see the ratings from past years. Even though Yao got knocked on a lot and didn't perform up to expectations of rabid fans, he still was top 10 in both 2004 and 2005. I'm sure that his field goal percentage had a lot to do with it as his other numbers aren't that impressive at all.

 

<div class="quote_poster">Quoting Locke:</div><div class="quote_post">Interesting to see the ratings from past years. Even though Yao got knocked on a lot and didn't perform up to expectations of rabid fans, he still was top 10 in both 2004 and 2005. I'm sure that his field goal percentage had a lot to do with it as his other numbers aren't that impressive at all.</div>

The rating looks at a player's productivity while they're on the court, per possession. That way, players who play a lot of minutes or who play on really faced paced teams won't have an inflated rating. That's the biggest reason he's shown up in the top 10 the last two years.

Actually, I think the PER slightly overrates Yao because he's shown that he can not sustain his level of play over a long stretch of minutes, and his inability to stay out of foul trouble also limits his minutes. Stamina and foul-trouble are weaknesses in his game that PER doesn't account for. Van Gundy would probably like for Yao to be able to play 35-38 minutes a night.

 

<div class="quote_poster">Quoting TwinTowers:</div><div class="quote_post">A rookie(Paul) beating the MVP(Nash) in the points in the rankings. It tells you how good that fella Paul is.</div>

Chris Paul has been awesome, statistically speaking. According to these ratings, he's having the best rookie season since Tim Duncan. LeBron's PER his rookie year was just under 19.