Folks, It's time to admit that Paul Pierce is better than we thought he was. While it's true that the Celtics aren't yet winning games, there is reason to believe that they will in the near future. Pierce has been doing virtually everything that could possibly be asked of any team's star guard. While his defense isn't up the level that some specialists might bring, it's still not bad (excepting one three during which he was arguing with an official). Pierce's offense has probably been some of the best in the league. He does get bail out calls, but not nearly as often as official miss calls going to the hoop. The jumper and the drive have both been on, as well as the three. I have seen him periodically ignoring Doc, but I'm not sure that I blame him. Pierce hasn't freelanced nearly has much, and watching Doc's schemes is like watching a slightly retarded high school coach. The young players seem to be learning quickly, so I believe Pierce is doing a better job as a leader. Will Pierce win a championship with this team, this year? No. They've played some of the worst defensive games ever, and the team tends to over pass on big shots. But the young guys will get better. And we couldn't suck worse than the knicks ( I hope).
Uhh...he's better than YOU thought he was. I KNEW he had the tools to be a great all around player AND a leader since his junior year in high school at Inglewood High. It was cemented in his college career at Kansas. He was shown the way to lead by his teammates, ESPECIALLY Antoine Walker and Eric Williams. Many people who wore his jerseys and claimed to love him last year started calling in to talk radio stations and calling him a bum and punk and saying he should be traded immeadiately. If your so-called "fans" that loved you yesterday are calling for your head tomorrow wouldn't you be moody? Also take into account that all of the heat was on Antoine Walker, the Boston media and fans punching bag, the same man who DEFERRED to a younger and less experienced Paul Pierce whom the media painted as a golden boy in contrast to Walker. Walker took the knocks and the criticism. He carried the team on his back for years before Paul and instead of feeding into everyone on the outside playing Paul and Toine AGAINST EACH OTHER, Walker instead embraced him and took him under his wing. Paul has witness all of these things ocurring with other athletes on other teams in Boston...being beloved, then hated, then run out of town. Why would you think he wouldn't notice? The former owners made bad draft pick after bad draft pick and ran all of his best friends and closest teammates out of town (Tony Battie, Eric Williams, Kenny Anderson, and Antoine Walker) and made bad trade after bad trade, leaving Paul out to dry to carry the burden all by myself with no help in 2003-4. After all that had transpired HOW WOULD YOU EXPECT PAUL TO FEEL AND BEHAVE? I'll never forget seeing that infamous Boston magazine article about the "moody" Paul Pierce...they never cover the Celtics (or any other brown person for that matter) in Boston magazine. The one article about the Celtics that DO run is about how much of a malcontent he is? Meanwhile, Tom Brady was on the cover of about 10 different publications...add to the fact that after this summer was up, the Celtics organization actively made Ricky Davis (also formerly labeled as a malconent by the media) the face of the organization! The TRUTH is that Paul Pierce is a much better man than me to deal with all of this hypocracy and bite his tounge and NOT tell the Boston fairweather fans, media, and ownership all to go to hell. His TRUE FANS KNEW WHAT HE WAS CAPABLE OF ALREADY, get a late pass, kid. One.
I think Pierce may have matured and improved as a person, but I don't know about his conditioning and offensive ability as a player. I think he was a better scorer when he was younger. Maybe its just Doc's offense speaking to me though.
I'm not really sure if you understood. We all know what Pierce is capable of, we've seen him do it. The title of the thread was "In defense of Paul Pierce". The defense is against the heaps of talk show callers, media dimwits and various ne'er-do-wells. I understand that knee jerk reaction, as it is what tends to characterize responses within forums. Grn, you in fact supported my argument, while perceiving that you were attacking it. Admittedly, I've done this before. It all needs clarification. I'm not going to say how I feel or felt about Paul Pierce, no axe to grind here, (empties hands). What I am saying is that he is playing much better than I have seen him play in a long time. The percentages are better, the flow is better, it's a lot more fun to watch. He is essentially scoring like he was when he was younger. He seems to be playing fewer minutes, but I think Doc just has a crowded rotation. There is some argument for this being Pierce's best season ever. Granted, we are only a quarter of the way through this season, but this team is very young, very talented, and very bad (but that's another story). As for turning this into a racial issue, that is your prerogative, I couldn't care less. Go argue with Rush Limbaugh and the NAACP about Donovan McNabb. I love basketball. I will not be defending the boston media, they're vampires. Dan Shaughnessy works for the boston media, and don't get me started on Shira Springer. Oy vey. As for Antoine deferring to Paul Pierce, it's time to correct a few misconceptions: Antoine Walker is not half the player Pierce is, he never was, never will be. Walker deferred because he knew who was better: Pierce. What we all owe Walker for is being a lightning rod for the media, had he not been, Pierce might not be half the player he is today. He would have regressed into himself then left. I loved Antoine as much as anybody, and I cheered when he came back. His dagger threes, his sense of timing and his inside game were all great to watch, but those are mostly gone now. He's a tweener with bad wheels and too much swagger. As for Paul Pierce being angry. I don't blame him, nor did I mention his perceived or actual anger. I have always believed that he comported himself with relative dignity for the situations that he was in. The most demonstrable exception being that intentional foul by Jamal Tinsley in the playoffs last year against Indiana. But that team chirped way too much, and things seem a little more restrained this year. Also, everyone knew Pierce had the TOOLS (pun intended) to be a great player. That's why he's been called a great player for years. It doesn't take a self-anointed TRUE FAN to see that. I'm saying he's better than what those TOOLS would even seem to merit. So please read and understand before getting venomous about things; Or at least look for a clarification.
Personally, I don't see any disagreement here. Paul Pierce has been as good as the Celtics have to offer for many years now, and we all know it. I don't think you're going to find any regular contributors to this little corner of the site who don't think that Pierce is the finest we have to offer. The only argument I feel coming on here is your defense of the organization as a whole. Having been at least somewhat involved in the last fifteen years of the franchise, I can't stand up for them anymore. That said, Pierce is above that fray, but apparently not above the contribution of more than a few wingnuts in the Boston area. Let me concur with, and reiterate, my own hatred of the Boston media, while saying that they didn't do anything out of sorts with their treatment of Paul Pierce. And it isn't just black people that the Boston contingent vilifies. If I have to invoke the name of the holy Father of media ostracism, than I must, but Ted Williams was the man that started it all. The man made it clear that he was to have nothing to do with the media, except on his own terms, and they made him look like a villain, there is no modern day equivalent to Williams' story, but the Celtics have seen more than their fair share of talent skip town and leave angry, as a result of these dogs. It's the sensationalism that kills me. The fact that these bits of venom are anything more than back page news kills me. When Bob Ryan again writes about how right he was about Curt Schilling, or how much this team needs a Larry Bird (if you want to talk racism, look no further), that stuff is reserved for the front page. How? Is this revelatory for someone? Is this any more than smear campaign nonsense? No, and it gives every in this area a bad name. Aside from that, Grn, as for the late passes, you're in the wrong line. I think you need to be handing them out in the front office. Late seems to be a popular theme for C's management, as in, they haven't done anything of late. This team has watched itself go from the heights of glory to the depths of mediocrity in such a staggeringly short amount of time, and that was almost twenty years ago now. The only lateness that bothers me is coming from them, as I don't think I can take another season of this.
I don't exactly know what the racist issue here is, is it that tom brady got more publication than pierce? cause brady has three superbowl rings and chicks think he's hot, which is why he gets so much attention. As for boston media, they're brutal but so is the media in every major city, look at new york with A-rodd. I wouldn't complain about the Boston media when talking about Ted Williams, that guy was garbage and had no class. He wouldn't tip his hat because he got boo'ed once at a baseball game. Guys that avoid the media, good or bad, black or white, and no matter where they play get hated on by the media because the media views this as disrespectful.
<div class="quote_poster">Quoting babybulls:</div><div class="quote_post">I don't exactly know what the racist issue here is, is it that tom brady got more publication than pierce? cause brady has three superbowl rings and chicks think he's hot, which is why he gets so much attention. As for boston media, they're brutal but so is the media in every major city, look at new york with A-rodd. I wouldn't complain about the Boston media when talking about Ted Williams, that guy was garbage and had no class. He wouldn't tip his hat because he got boo'ed once at a baseball game. Guys that avoid the media, good or bad, black or white, and no matter where they play get hated on by the media because the media views this as disrespectful.</div> Please do not disrespect the memory of Ted Williams with your half truthes.
To postpoint: My entire post responding to yours was based on 3 key elements. First, the title of your thread and the the post itself. Second, the fact that underneath your name in the slot for Favorite Player it reads "it's still Paul". Third, the fact that I spent the entire latter part of the playoffs AND the entire summer defending Paul Pierce to "Celtic fans". I sat in the stands in my regular seats in Section 18 and spent two playoff games last summer wondering why "fans" were booing Antoine and Paul and yelling expletives and obscenities at them? I just got some things off of my chest...I wasn't necessarily going at you (but if you were the sort of "fan" I despise..then, yeah, I totally was..LOL) but based on those factors I did jump to conclusions. You're clearly someone who has their head on straight, so I apologize if it seemed that I was attacking you. I do however, disagree with you on the matter of Antoine Walker's skill level and basketball ability. One.
Oh man <div class="quote_poster">Quoting babybulls:</div><div class="quote_post">I don't exactly know what the racist issue here is, is it that tom brady got more publication than pierce? cause brady has three superbowl rings and chicks think he's hot, which is why he gets so much attention. As for boston media, they're brutal but so is the media in every major city, look at new york with A-rodd. I wouldn't complain about the Boston media when talking about Ted Williams, that guy was garbage and had no class. He wouldn't tip his hat because he got boo'ed once at a baseball game. Guys that avoid the media, good or bad, black or white, and no matter where they play get hated on by the media because the media views this as disrespectful.</div> My post is based on my experiences with my fellow Bostonians and the Boston media in regards to athletes over my 30 years of living here. I remember when the C's would win and Larry, Kevin or Danny would be on the back cover of the paper (usually the Herald) and when they lost it would be DJ, Chief, Max or M.L., etc. Reggie Lewis became captain and he went down with what no one knew was a heart attack at the time in that playoff game in the Garden vs. the Charlotte Hornets. When Larry Bird's face appeared on the jumbotron the fans chanted "Larry!" "Larry!"...while Reggie was on his stomach on the court...this pissed off A LOT of people..it's also why Reggie's brother requested that at his funeral 'the fans should chant his name..because he never heard it in the Boston Garden". That statement didn't come out of nowhere, it's just how many people in the community felt. Another feeling is that the reason the Celtics aren't as popular in Boston as they once were is because there wasn't a player for the people to fully embrace. Had Pitino had his way in the 1997 Draft, he would've taken Tim Duncan and then Keith Van Horn. In 1998, management coveted Dirk Nowitzki. The Red Sox have/had Johnny Damon, Jason Varitek, Kevin Millar, Curt Schilling, Tim Wakefield, Nomar Garciaparra etc. to go along with Manny, Pedro and Big Papi. The Patriots have/had Tom Brady, Adam Vinatieri, Tedy Bruschi and Ted Johnson to go along with Troy Brown, Deion Branch, Kevin Faulk, Corey Dillon, Ty Law, Lawyer Millow and Rodney Harrison. The Celtics have had Antoine Walker, Paul Pierce, and Ricky Davis as the face of their franchise...the BRUINS were STILL more popular than the Celtics in Boston...AND THERE WAS NO HOCKEY LAST YEAR! I'm not going to make any more statements...draw your own conclusions. One.
Legit <div class="quote_poster">Quoting GrnDynsty:</div><div class="quote_post">To postpoint: My entire post responding to yours was based on 3 key elements. First, the title of your thread and the the post itself. Second, the fact that underneath your name in the slot for Favorite Player it reads "it's still Paul". Third, the fact that I spent the entire latter part of the playoffs AND the entire summer defending Paul Pierce to "Celtic fans". I sat in the stands in my regular seats in Section 18 and spent two playoff games last summer wondering why "fans" were booing Antoine and Paul and yelling expletives and obscenities at them? I just got some things off of my chest...I wasn't necessarily going at you (but if you were the sort of "fan" I despise..then, yeah, I totally was..LOL) but based on those factors I did jump to conclusions. You're clearly someone who has their head on straight, so I apologize if it seemed that I was attacking you. I do however, disagree with you on the matter of Antoine Walker's skill level and basketball ability. One.</div> I understand, man. I sort of took offense, because I've never thought Paul was anything other than great. I was offering a defense against the people that ceaselessly attack him in the media. I understand the need to get the media off your chest, they're idiots. The problem I see is that they only function that way because they believe it is the only was they will be noticed (and thereby keep their jobs). As for Antoine. I still have the "Walker 8" jersey, I don't have the heart to throw it out. I just believe that Antoine could have been better, and that Paul is better. By "it's still Paul" I just meant that I refused to switch allegiances because management told me to. Also, there is no approval of management contained within my post, implicit or otherwise. I don't believe that they have done a good job in a long time. But I do believe that this team has a great deal of talent. We'll see how it plays out, don't assume my lack of vehemence suggests approval. I'm also going to risk tackling the racial issue. I love the Patriots, but we all know that they play in between the lines. The team seems almost self-contained, there are no Vikings-type incidents publicized here. Thus, they have that red, white and blue, straightforward charisma that only winners have. Regrettably, the celtics aren't winners anymore, they just aren't. Also, the celts have little charisma. Pierce does his best, but since the stabbing incident, he has always seemed a little bit more withdrawn. Ricky has too much past history to be loved by anyone but basketball fans. And no one else has the star power or mutant genetic charisma that Damon or Millar have. Maybe we should get Paul Shirley? Also, Brian Scalabrine should be under a bridge somewhere. The man just cannot play basketball. Also, it's a matter of pride. The Patriots win, so people start wanting to be in "their club". The Red Sox are a whole other story, part of it is the "winner's mystique". But part of it is the racial angle, it's a white team, this is a white state, whatever anyone says. The team's primary spokesman was white trash as only baseball players can be (Millar). But the media eats it up because it's endearing, and you can forgive it in the context of winning, and as a very subtle continuation of a very entrenched history. As for Ted Williams...I got no idea. He's a god around here, you're better off saying that Larry Bird was a secret Nazi agent than messing with Teddy Ballgame. FYI, he's dead, he was a a very proud man and it seems like he was a jerk. We love him no less for it. Although I'm willing to bet he didn't have many kind words for Pumpsie Green.
<div class="quote_poster">Quoting postpoint:</div><div class="quote_post">Although I'm willing to bet he didn't have many kind words for Pumpsie Green.</div> Are you kidding me? He was the only guy who DID accept him onto the team! He threw warmup tosses with him every day for his rookie season to signal the other players that he was to be accepted and that was that. Williams' mother was Mexican for God's sake, he was no racist. When he was inducted into the hall of fame, he pleaded with the veteran's committee to allow Negro League Players in as well. This man may have been cold hearted to fans, but he was a player's player, and earned that title in every way.
<div class="quote_poster">Quoting postpoint:</div><div class="quote_post">And we couldn't suck worse than the knicks ( I hope).</div> Thats cold
<div class="quote_poster">Quoting GrnDynsty:</div><div class="quote_post"> Another feeling is that the reason the Celtics aren't as popular in Boston as they once were is because there wasn't a player for the people to fully embrace. Had Pitino had his way in the 1997 Draft, he would've taken Tim Duncan and then Keith Van Horn. </div> Are you saying that patino wanting those two players makes him racist? Because there is a reason they went 1 and 2 in the draft. <div class="quote_poster">Quoting GrnDynsty:</div><div class="quote_post"> In 1998, management coveted Dirk Nowitzki. </div> Again how is that racist? He is one of the best players in the year and an MVP candidate practically every season, looking back on it almost any GM in the league would take him over pierce. <div class="quote_poster">Quoting GrnDynsty:</div><div class="quote_post"> The Red Sox have/had Johnny Damon, Jason Varitek, Kevin Millar, Curt Schilling, Tim Wakefield, Nomar Garciaparra etc. to go along with Manny, Pedro and Big Papi. </div> You're right they do have a lot of white players on that team, the problem is red sox fans especially recently aren't big on millar or schilling and Big Papi is probably the biggest fan favorite of them all. Manny and Pedro are disliked because of their attitudes not their race <div class="quote_poster">Quoting GrnDynsty:</div><div class="quote_post"> The Patriots have/had Tom Brady, Adam Vinatieri, Tedy Bruschi and Ted Johnson to go along with Troy Brown, Deion Branch, Kevin Faulk, Corey Dillon, Ty Law, Lawyer Millow and Rodney Harrison. </div> Tom Brady is a feel good story, Vinatieri is clutch, Bruschi is another feel good story with his successful comeback and Lawyer Milloy was one of the most popular Patriots before he got released. Every Boston fan loves Troy Brown. Deoin Branch isn't a big enough talent he is liked for what he is. Corey Dillon and harrison haven't been on the team long enough but most boston fans like them and ty law got slack cause of his contract not his race. <div class="quote_poster">Quoting GrnDynsty:</div><div class="quote_post"> The Celtics have had Antoine Walker, Paul Pierce, and Ricky Davis as the face of their franchise...the BRUINS were STILL more popular than the Celtics in Boston...AND THERE WAS NO HOCKEY LAST YEAR! </div> I honestly can't believe you're pulling the race card on this one but okay, have you noticed the location of Boston? Its in the Northeast, in the Northeast there is a very strong hockey base, if you want to go down to the depths of high school, look how many top basketball prospects come out of the northeast vs top hockey prospects. It is ingrained in the culture, probably because of the weather. With that said people did miss the bruins last year but it didn't help that the celtics haven't improved in 7 yrs, it was talked above about how their franchise is losing its luster, maybe that's why they aren't appealing not race. <div class="quote_poster">Quoting Squishface:</div><div class="quote_post"> Please do not disrespect the memory of Ted Williams with your half truthes</div> Half truthes? are you saying Ted Williams didn't refuse to tip his cap or are you saying that not tipping your cap is infact classy?
Corrected <div class="quote_poster">Quoting Squishface:</div><div class="quote_post">Are you kidding me? He was the only guy who DID accept him onto the team! He threw warmup tosses with him every day for his rookie season to signal the other players that he was to be accepted and that was that. Williams' mother was Mexican for God's sake, he was no racist. When he was inducted into the hall of fame, he pleaded with the veteran's committee to allow Negro League Players in as well. This man may have been cold hearted to fans, but he was a player's player, and earned that title in every way.</div> I stand corrected. I was mostly being contentious. This city is still racist. That's pretty obvious.
<div class="quote_poster">Quoting babybulls:</div><div class="quote_post">Are you saying that patino wanting those two players makes him racist? Because there is a reason they went 1 and 2 in the draft. Again how is that racist? He is one of the best players in the year and an MVP candidate practically every season, looking back on it almost any GM in the league would take him over pierce. You're right they do have a lot of white players on that team, the problem is red sox fans especially recently aren't big on millar or schilling and Big Papi is probably the biggest fan favorite of them all. Manny and Pedro are disliked because of their attitudes not their race Tom Brady is a feel good story, Vinatieri is clutch, Bruschi is another feel good story with his successful comeback and Lawyer Milloy was one of the most popular Patriots before he got released. Every Boston fan loves Troy Brown. Deoin Branch isn't a big enough talent he is liked for what he is. Corey Dillon and harrison haven't been on the team long enough but most boston fans like them and ty law got slack cause of his contract not his race. I honestly can't believe you're pulling the race card on this one but okay, have you noticed the location of Boston? Its in the Northeast, in the Northeast there is a very strong hockey base, if you want to go down to the depths of high school, look how many top basketball prospects come out of the northeast vs top hockey prospects. It is ingrained in the culture, probably because of the weather. With that said people did miss the bruins last year but it didn't help that the celtics haven't improved in 7 yrs, it was talked above about how their franchise is losing its luster, maybe that's why they aren't appealing not race. Half truthes? are you saying Ted Williams didn't refuse to tip his cap or are you saying that not tipping your cap is infact classy?</div> All righty, I'm ready to go to town, anyone else? First off, all the points you just spoke to had nothing to do with race, and race was never implied in them, i.e., Pitino's drafting, management coveting Dirk, the personnel of the Boston Red Sox, the personnel of the Patriots, and the Bruins being more popular than the Celtics. Not one of those issues had anything to do with race. Sorry, you're in left field. On the other hand, I totally agree with you that mediocrity is what's killing the Celtics popularity. It's not race (although no one said it was), it's not a player to latch on to, it's just plain boring old, middle-of-the-road, garbage basketball, and no front office moving in the right direction to cure us of that. The Celtics are second-class citizens for a reason, no one cares enough about them within the franchise to make the fans care about them in the public. If Ainge and Co. could make us forget the last 15 years of basketball in Boston, he would make this team marketable (and more overly, watchable) again. It's just a matter of building with the tools you have, although it's very obviously not that simple. A winner would make the fans come back again, because as we all know, Boston fans are nothing if not fairweather. One more little discrepancy. Red Sox fans do not dislike Manny or Pedro. Pedro was a hero to us, and that's that. The perception in the general public is that Boston fans want Manny run out of town, and that's not the case at all. Boston fans love him, and most everyone else wants him run out of town more than we do. If you don't believe me, go check out keepmanny.com and see for yourself. As for the Teddy Ballgame matter. The half truth was that you haven't the foggiest clue as to the whole story to that incident, and that being the case, please don't mouth off about a player of his magnitude if you don't know what you're saying. If you'd like the whole story, PM me, and I'd be happy to tell it to you. <div class="quote_poster">Quoting postpoint:</div><div class="quote_post">I stand corrected. I was mostly being contentious. This city is still racist. That's pretty obvious.</div> Agreed, and contentiousness is something I've been getting a right dose of lately, so no harm done.
Last thing, was Pitino racist for wanting Van Horn and Nowitzki? No...shoot I WANTED THEM BOTH. The thing is that had Van Horn or Nowitzki landed in Boston they'd have been received EXTREMELY WELL. I like players based on SKILL...everyone isn't like me and I'm FULLY AWARE OF THAT. I was a huge fan of Larry, Danny and Kevin...they were all hard working guys who put their pants on one leg at a time...plus they were the best at what they did and received respect from all of the elite players in the league...they didn't have a racist bone in their bodies...however, MANY OF THE FANS DID. I was talking about PERCEPTION rather than what actually went down most of the time.. As for Teddy Ballgame...he was JUSTIFIED in not tipping his cap, trust me. He was embarrassed that the MLB and ESPECIALLY THE RED SOX ORGANIZATION didn't let Negro League/Black players in (some of the greatest baseball talents NEVER GOT TO BE SEEN PLAYING THE GAME!) and he WAS friends with Pumpsie Green...Pumpsie's two best friends in Boston that showed him the ropes were Ted Williams and Bill Russell. One.
<div class="quote_poster">Quoting GrnDynsty:</div><div class="quote_post">Last thing, was Pitino racist for wanting Van Horn and Nowitzki? No...shoot I WANTED THEM BOTH. The thing is that had Van Horn or Nowitzki landed in Boston they'd have been received EXTREMELY WELL. I like players based on SKILL...everyone isn't like me and I'm FULLY AWARE OF THAT. I was a huge fan of Larry, Danny and Kevin...they were all hard working guys who put their pants on one leg at a time...plus they were the best at what they did and received respect from all of the elite players in the league...they didn't have a racist bone in their bodies...however, MANY OF THE FANS DID. I was talking about PERCEPTION rather than what actually went down most of the time.. As for Teddy Ballgame...he was JUSTIFIED in not tipping his cap, trust me. He was embarrassed that the MLB and ESPECIALLY THE RED SOX ORGANIZATION didn't let Negro League/Black players in (some of the greatest baseball talents NEVER GOT TO BE SEEN PLAYING THE GAME!) and he WAS friends with Pumpsie Green...Pumpsie's two best friends in Boston that showed him the ropes were Ted Williams and Bill Russell. One.</div> While I agree with nearly everything in this post, let's call a spade a spade and say that The Kid didn't tip his cap because he didn't like the fans, that's the God's honest truth, and there is a story to it, but it isn't because of the league not allowing black players in. I'm not sure if that was part of it, but in actuality, he just didn't like the fans. But you are absolutely right, he did detest the league for being as stubborn and narrow-minded as it was.
