<div class="quote_poster">Quoting Avery:</div><div class="quote_post">So shape, AI is not offensive talent to you or is he like just an exception?</div> No, Iverson is a great offensive talent, I was just saying his size prevents him from being a great scorer in the post.
<div class="quote_poster">Quoting j0se:</div><div class="quote_post">Iverson > Kobe.</div> Them's fightin' words.
Ok their is way to much debate going on about this. Let me put it to rest. If you can play at both ends of the court and pull down great stats on both ends consistently. win championships and break records at the same time. I believe you should be awarded the best player in the league. KG, Lebron and haven't done this yet and Duncan is good at just what he does, Dirk is like Duncan a specialist at his position, but they both can be shut down even at their best. KG, Lebron (who I seen play in high school) and Kobe are masters at the craft of basketball and very smart players. They improve facets of their games every year. Kobe is adjusting to being without Shaq and will eventually make those around him a better player. KG and Lebron didn't have a ShaQ so they had to learn quickly how to be play makers as well. Lebron is a natural playmaker though, he can thread a needle like a seamtress. Anyway, KG was the best for sometime but fails to bring his talent to the level of a champion. A choice he has made to stay in Minnesota. Lebron is just getting started and will eventually surpass Jordan and Kobe. Right now, today Kobe is the ultimate master of the craft of basketball, championships, mvps, record breaking, buzzer beating, slam dunkin, ball stealin, ball blocking, heart pumping, determination runs through his blood every game day in day out. He is the best at his job right now and that can be disputed but the truth lies in the facts. AI has no championships, defense so, so, but he has incredible heart and I love to watch him play. All jobs have the best person in their craft and certain jobs recognize it. Yes, it is subjective but there are also objective reasons/facts to substantiate the claims. Bottom line, he is only 27 and is still runnin' things. Beating 5 guys virtually by yourself including one the best in the league (Dirk) is a testament to his title - THE BEST! Side note: Even Magic admits that Jordan was the best ever and Magic is one the best that ever played. So lets end the debate and give credit where credit has been earned. Peace!
<div class="quote_poster">Quoting j0se:</div><div class="quote_post">Iverson > Kobe.</div> Sure jose also Edwardo Najara > Duncan right?
We can sit here and argue all day long that Kobe's 62 pts, which everyone and their momma know has influenced Purple Fever to write this, is probably the best offensive feat that we've seen in the newer generations (I'm saying the newer generations because it's obvious that most kids here didn't see MJ LIVE in his prime dominating people) but Kobe hasn't been doing it regularly like MJ has. Yes Kobe only had an AI-like team (aka: a team of role players designed specifically to complement the star player) for 1.5 seasons but he is really not going anywhere unless a big time player (such as Artest?) comes on to the Lakers and bring them to the playoffs. However, that is as far as Kobe is ever going to go. No conference finals or anything. Everybody knows that you need a dominant big man (or men) to win championships. It doesn't look like Kobe's getting that any time soon. The ring nowadays belongs to either the Spurs, Pistons or the Heat, no other teams comes close. AI once put the Sixers on his shoulders and brought them to the NBA Championship game against the scorching Lakers and beat them in their own house. Now to me, that's a pretty darn good accomplishment, maybe not at the same level as a 62pts game, but the guy won multiple games/series and took them to the championship series as opposed to winning a regular season game against a poor defensive team that is Dallas. But I digress. Back on topic, it really depends on what generation you're in. If you're born circa 1985 or 1990, most likely you'll say that Kobe is 2nd only to MJ because honestly, unless you LIVED through the Jordan era AND the Kobe era (as I have), you will not understand the magnitude of dominance that MJ had. There is a reason why 95% of the people who lived through the MJ and Kobe era agree that MJ > Kobe. The other 5% are either biased Lakers fans or think that MJ and Kobe are on the same level. So in conclusion, MJ is the most talented player of my generation. Nobody else comes close. He has the rings, the stats, the records, and the accolades to back him up. Duncan is #2 to him, Kobe is #3. Lebron is climbing his way up though. That is all.
<div class="quote_poster">Quoting SupraJames:</div><div class="quote_post">as opposed to winning a regular season game against a poor defensive team that is Dallas. </div> One little bone to pick. Dallas isn't such an awful defensive squad anymore. Their team defense has been great lately, and in some instances, has saved them from being embarrassed and/or just beaten. They've won games with Avery's help D system, and it continues to fit their ability level very well. That isn't to say that Kobe's game had them absolutely reeling, but they have been a fine defensive squad in spite of some individual parts going (staying?) wrong.
<div class="quote_poster">Quoting SupraJames:</div><div class="quote_post">We can sit here and argue all day long that Kobe's 62 pts, which everyone and their momma know has influenced Purple Fever to write this</div>
<div class="quote_poster">Quoting Squishface:</div><div class="quote_post">One little bone to pick. Dallas isn't such an awful defensive squad anymore. Their team defense has been great lately, and in some instances, has saved them from being embarrassed and/or just beaten. They've won games with Avery's help D system, and it continues to fit their ability level very well. That isn't to say that Kobe's game had them absolutely reeling, but they have been a fine defensive squad in spite of some individual parts going (staying?) wrong.</div> I will agree that their defense has somewhat improved over the years, but the main reason that Dallas is still a poor defensive team is because they have no shotblocker. There is no intimidation factor in the paint at all. No team defense can be considered good without at least a legit shotblocker patroling the paint. Once the guards on the opposing team gets by their man and gets to the paint, they either score or get the foul call. Naturally, this lack of big man in the middle causes the whole Dallas team to cheat off their man a little bit because they'd much rather protect the drive (and the embarassment of someone blowing by them and dunking on their face) and so they're more willing to give up the jumpers, which Kobe was just insanely hitting that game.
In terms of points given up per possession, they're currently ranked 15th in the league. Interestingly enough, that's somewhat worse than where they were last year under Don Nelson. But, yeah, the idea of Dallas being a bad defensive team is way overrated. You can win championships with an average defensive squad if you got a stellar offensive squad, which is what they have. They're ranked 3rd in points per possession. BTW, Dallas is 7th in the league in shot-blocking, so the idea they have no shot-blocker is pretty much hogwash as well. Diop is averaging 4.6 blocks per 40 minutes of play!
<div class="quote_poster">Quoting durvasa:</div><div class="quote_post">In terms of points given up per possession, they're currently ranked 15th in the league. Interestingly enough, that's somewhat worse than where they were last year under Don Nelson. But, yeah, the idea of Dallas being a bad defensive team is way overrated. You can win championships with an average defensive squad if you got a stellar offensive squad, which is what they have. They're ranked 3rd in points per possession. BTW, Dallas is 7th in the league in shot-blocking, so the idea they have no shot-blocker is pretty much hogwash as well. Diop is averaging 4.6 blocks per 40 minutes of play!</div> ...Dallas will NEVER win any championships in a billion years with the "average defensive and stellar offensive squad" that they have right now. Please, let's not lie to ourselves. It's nice that Dallas is 7th in shotblocking, but they still don't have a dominant big man on the paint. (Dirk is not one) and what about Diop? The guy plays 18mpg, if they play him more THEN I will say that Dallas has a legit presence down low. But that won't get them anywhere in terms of winning any championships.
<div class="quote_poster">Quoting SupraJames:</div><div class="quote_post">...Dallas will NEVER win any championships in a billion years with the "average defensive and stellar offensive squad" that they have right now. Please, let's not lie to ourselves.</div> Never say never. It's quite possible, actually. In a 7-game series, I'd choose a healthy Dallas team over any other healthy team in the league other than SA, Detroit, and maybe Miami. And I think those 3 would be close. I'm not even a Mav fan, but I expected them to be really good this year and they have been, despite the injuries. <div class="quote_poster">Quote:</div><div class="quote_post">It's nice that Dallas is 7th in shotblocking, but they still don't have a dominant big man on the paint. (Dirk is not one) and what about Diop? The guy plays 18mpg, if they play him more THEN I will say that Dallas has a legit presence down low. But that won't get them anywhere in terms of winning any championships.</div> From their center position, Dallas is getting 3.3 blocks per game. That's very good. In fact, I believe they're only behind Miami in shot blocking production from their center position. Comparing the interior defense of the Mavs to, say, the Detroit Pistons (who have a very high reputation in this respect), you find that the Mavs are actually better. Specifically, Detroit gives up 52.6% shooting in non-dunk/tip-in interior shots, and Dallas is only allow 52.1% shooting on such shots. Additionally, Dallas allows less inside shot attempts than Detroit (36% compared to 40% of opponent's shot attempts). And yet, despite the hard evidence, everyone is quick to call Dallas soft in their interior defense but Detroit is a dominant defensive team. It's a situation where people are allowing reputation to bias their perception. The so called "analysts" on TNT's Inside the NBA and even ESPN's half time show are consistently guilty of this.
<div class="quote_poster">Quoting durvasa:</div><div class="quote_post">Never say never. It's quite possible, actually. In a 7-game series, I'd choose a healthy Dallas team over any other healthy team in the league other than SA, Detroit, and maybe Miami. And I think those 3 would be close. I'm not even a Mav fan, but I expected them to be really good this year and they have been, despite the injuries.</div> I can't say I disagree with you in that Dallas isn't close behind in terms of contending for the ring, but I think that's just by default cause they're the next best team in the league and I believe that, along with Indiana, Dallas is a level under the "serious contenders" such as SA, Detroit and maybe Miami. However it's just a difference of opinion so let's leave it at that. <div class="quote_poster">Quoting durvasa:</div><div class="quote_post">From their center position, Dallas is getting 3.3 blocks per game. That's very good. In fact, I believe they're only behind Miami in shot blocking production from their center position. Comparing the interior defense of the Mavs to, say, the Detroit Pistons (who have a very high reputation in this respect), you find that the Mavs are actually better. Specifically, Detroit gives up 52.6% shooting in non-dunk/tip-in interior shots, and Dallas is only allow 52.1% shooting on such shots. Additionally, Dallas allows less inside shot attempts than Detroit (36% compared to 40% of opponent's shot attempts). And yet, despite the hard evidence, everyone is quick to call Dallas soft in their interior defense but Detroit is a dominant defensive team. It's a situation where people are allowing reputation to bias their perception. The so called "analysts" on TNT's Inside the NBA and even ESPN's half time show are consistently guilty of this.</div> I'm not sure I'm understanding the PER rating correctly here, but in the first link you gave me (under "getting"), the PER rating for their defensive C slot is 14 and on the footnote of the page, it says that the league average is 15.. doesn't that make their C position under-average? And also on the "net production" table, the C position is the only position that's giving them negative contribution... However, when I look at the same tables for Detroit, their PER rating is higher on all positions and particularly, their C position net production is way higher than Dallas' (+3.0 vs -0.4)
<div class="quote_poster">Quoting SupraJames:</div><div class="quote_post"> I'm not sure I'm understanding the PER rating correctly here, but in the first link you gave me (under "getting"), the PER rating for their defensive C slot is 14 and on the footnote of the page, it says that the league average is 15.. doesn't that make their C position under-average? And also on the "net production" table, the C position is the only position that's giving them negative contribution... However, when I look at the same tables for Detroit, their PER rating is higher on all positions and particularly, their C position net production is way higher than Dallas' (+3.0 vs -0.4)</div> PER basically brings together all the stats of a player. In terms of PER, center is Dallas's weakest position because both Dampier and Diop are very poor offensive players. What I was looking, however, was defense -- and specifically, interior defense. The numbers show that Dallas gets a high number of blocked shots from their center positoin (second in the league, in fact). That's all I was looking at from that page. If you want to look at PER, you could also conclude that Dallas has defended against opposing centers better than Detroit (14.4 PER versus 15.7 PER) so far. In terms of over all production, definitely Detroit is much better at center position than Dallas. There's no dispute there. Interior defense is a different story.
Theres one word which celebrates what Kobe Bryant did vs Dallas. Hog. He did not get 1 assist. Even at the start of the game when he didnt know he was hot, he still didnt pass the ball. Even Michael Jordan in his 69 point game had 6 assists. 6! thats another 12 points there. He is maybe the most talented scorer at the moment, but tmac is injured with his back, he may have done the same. we dont know. Its just at the moment, kobe is the most talented player. until iverson or someone breaks the 62 lol. everyone will be gunning for it now
shhhh, wow i think al micheals and hubie brown said it best today, "Kobe scorin 62 in 33 minutes and ppl saying he did not get 1 assist is the same as saying a beaty pagant(wrong spellin but i dont care) won MS. America but had a pimple on her wrist..."
No!!! kobe will never be the best or the greatest. Everybody think he is the best and evertything because of 62 points man that aint nothing my boy Allen Iverson can get more then that he has i think. if kobe so good he would have helped his team today with that lost they had.
Once again, people bring that up, refer to my other post in "Nowitzki Comments on American Game" for a full explanation. A brief summary: It is ironic to me that the guys who bash Kobe and call him a stat-padder or that he's too concerned with himself are the guys who actually can't get over the fact that he had 0 ASTs... he sat out the 4th quarter, I'm sure he realized he had 0 ASTs, if he wanted to he could've gone out and got some ASTs and padded his box score, yet it is obvious there's no need, the win was secured, so he rested the 4th...if MJ dominates a game then it's called determination and leadership, if Kobe does it, it's called ballhogging. Half of you Kobe haters don't even have a reason to dislike him except to follow what everyone else says, and FYI I'm not a Kobe-lover, just a basketball fan tired of people not making decisions for themselves and following whatever the mainstream says. <div class="quote_poster">Quoting bball_spida:</div><div class="quote_post">Theres one word which celebrates what Kobe Bryant did vs Dallas. Hog. He did not get 1 assist. Even at the start of the game when he didnt know he was hot, he still didnt pass the ball. Even Michael Jordan in his 69 point game had 6 assists. 6! thats another 12 points there. He is maybe the most talented scorer at the moment, but tmac is injured with his back, he may have done the same. we dont know. Its just at the moment, kobe is the most talented player. until iverson or someone breaks the 62 lol. everyone will be gunning for it now</div>
<div class="quote_poster">Quoting $Quan$:</div><div class="quote_post">No!!! kobe will never be the best or the greatest. Everybody think he is the best and evertything because of 62 points man that aint nothing my boy Allen Iverson can get more then that he has i think. if kobe so good he would have helped his team today with that lost they had.</div> I'm not even gonna address this post more than I've already have, any other support besides "my boy iverson can do same kobe didnt win today!"
<div class="quote_poster">Quoting $Quan$:</div><div class="quote_post">No!!! kobe will never be the best or the greatest. Everybody think he is the best and evertything because of 62 points man that aint nothing my boy Allen Iverson can get more then that he has i think. if kobe so good he would have helped his team today with that lost they had.</div> So you are trying to tell me, that if Kobe was so good, his team would never lose? There are so many things wrong with what you are trying to say.
