OAKLAND — Last week in Phoenix, Troy Murphy described the Warriors by saying, "There's something missing with us right now," but admitted that he couldn't identify exactly what that absent item was. Closer examination of his shooting hand might have given him a lead. While that hand hardly is the only reason the Warriors struggled so mightily for much of January, Murphy's 3-point accuracy, such an integral part of the Golden State offensive philosophy, has taken a three-week vacation without sending back so much as a postcard. Over the past eight games, the power forward who knocked down 39.9 percent of his treys last season has gone 2-for-20 from beyond the arc. Statistically, it's the worst shooting slump since Murphy began hoisting 3s with regularity early last season. And the reasons behind the cold spell are just as baffling to Murphy as they are to everyone else. "I haven't knocked down the 3s I was knocking down at the beginning of the year. I just haven't been shooting them as well," Murphy said. "They'll be back. One game, I'll erupt." By Geoff Lepper, INSIDEBAYAREA STAFF WRITER I hope he erupts soon then, because his ability to stretch the defense is his main value to the team -- without that, heck we have D-Fish who can stand around the 3-line and jack up threes all day. Why not play him at the four?
If we played Fisher at the 4 spot, we'd be improving our defense already. Nah, the thing about Murphy is he's going to be only offense. He doesn't pass, he's not good at defense, he doesn't do the dirty work, he takes away from Dunleavy's spots on the floor, I think. If we want Taft/Zarko/Biedrins/Ike to get some burn, we better hope Murphy gets healthy so we can trade him. I think Zarko could already spread the floor and at least attempt to block a shot. Taft, Biedrins can alter shots. Ike can at least play honest help defense and fill up the paint.
I'm starting to wonder if Mullin has the nerve to trade one of his "nucleus" core players. In a way, trading Murphy would be admitting a mistake -- despite getting equal or better value for him -- because it means Mully may have been a little over-zealous with that contract, especially if he trades for a player who doesn't play power forward. More so if he plans to slide one of his prospects to the 4, because essentially he could have let Troy walk and have done that in the first place (I know Ike was drafted after Troy was signed). I'm not saying I wouldn't have signed Troy, I'm glad he did. He's more-or-less earned his money. But his style of play, especially lately, has been less-than-cohesive with the rest of the team. Let's hope Mully can swallow his pride and "dish" one of his core, "long-term vision" players for, well, any type of equal compensation, simply so that the Warriors can give their other players more minutes at the 4.
In a way I really hope we move Murphy, but the problem is, if he goes to a team with a post player, he'll probably improve his scoring dramatically. Because of this, we'll have to hear all of the Dunleavy bashers and Murphy lovers gripe about how we got rid of the wrong guy. I honestly believe "downgrading" Murphy would be ideal for this team. It's addition by subtraction. Ike gets more minutes and hopefully we can get a player that can block some shots at the 4. Think about it If there was a cheap backup 4 out there that can D up that can share minutes with Ike and have Pietrus come in and play some minutes it would give Biedrins time to play and touch the ball on offense without haveing to get in so much foul trouble. It just seems to make sense on so many levels. I wonder what Mully will do.
<div class="quote_poster">Quoting CohanHater:</div><div class="quote_post">In a way I really hope we move Murphy, but the problem is, if he goes to a team with a post player, he'll probably improve his scoring dramatically. Because of this, we'll have to hear all of the Dunleavy bashers and Murphy lovers gripe about how we got rid of the wrong guy. I honestly believe "downgrading" Murphy would be ideal for this team. It's addition by subtraction. Ike gets more minutes and hopefully we can get a player that can block some shots at the 4. Think about it If there was a cheap backup 4 out there that can D up that can share minutes with Ike and have Pietrus come in and play some minutes it would give Biedrins time to play and touch the ball on offense without haveing to get in so much foul trouble. It just seems to make sense on so many levels. I wonder what Mully will do.</div> It really does make sense on many levels, personnel wise, flow-of-the-offense wise, development wise. Murphy would be terrific off the bench. If only he had a bench-player's contract! But if he stays on this team I don't see coach or Mullin removing him from the starting line-up
I think it was a big mistake making Murph one of our building blocks. Fans always bring up the fact he stretches out defenses but that's a myth. Everytime BD drives or runs a pick and roll defenses just sag and let Murph shoot his jumpers. He hasn't opened up ny driving lanes, he just makes it easy on the defense. They can collapse on BD and they give up a jumper to a guy shooting 42%/34% from threes, which is terrible for a PF . If I was playing d i would love for Troy to shoot a bunch of jumpers. His percentage isn't that great and if he misses can jumpstart our break. When Ike, Biedrins, or Taft are in they cut to the basket when Baron drives and they get dunks or layups. We have a sg or sf out there to spread out the def, we dont need our pf doing that. Also, he's out of position for an offensive board. So I just dont buy the argument that he has value for stretching out defenses. That's just flat out not true. By being outside he lets his man sag so he can get that jumper, which he loves. Also the screens he sets are so half a$$ that you'll see better ones being set in Junior High. And his complete unwillingness to play defense pisses me off. This guy would be benched by a real coach. Subtract this guy and our team would be much better. I have no doubt about that.
I will take agreeance with Doc Rivers. The trio of Baron Davis, Jason Richardson, and Troy Murphy, is a very good trio, especially offensively. I think that Troy Murphy does a lot of things very well and things that are very important to this team. Murphy can shoot outside but also he can pump fake and take the big man off the dribble. He is tall and usually very agressive. When he is into it he is one of the team's few players who will find himself at the free throw line many many times in the game. Murphy, though he should work on his fundamentals of rebounding(boxing out), he has proven to be a good rebounder in the league. I think the trio of Baron/Jason/Troy is a good one, that could really carry a team to the playoffs, if it had the correct role players and had a coach that would get the most out of this trio. Troy may not be able to post up so great, but then there is Jason and Baron who can. In this trio you kind of have two players who are so awkward in a sence for a player in their position with Jason as SG and Troy as PF, but together I think they are a good fit, and then you have the Boss(did he lose this title this year?) making all of the other things click. But no, I believe there are some problems with personnale, as it has been mentioned in these previous posts. And because of this, I guess there really could be somewhat of an addition by subtraction if this team were to get rid of Troy Murphy(at least by chance salary cap wise). However I will continue to stand by the trio of Baron/Jason/Troy is a very good one. I think putting maybe a Pietrus at the three and a Chris Taft type player at the five would complete that trio very, very well. However the contracts say Dunleavy and Foyle. I really don't have a problem with Dunleavy or Foyle starting. But I think if we want to ride our big three, adding in Pietrus at the three and maybe Taft or Diogu at the five would be the best. Anyway one of the biggest things that is a problem with Murphy is the lack of feel he has with this team. As he said about Montgomery's offense, "What offense?" it seems to be the case for him on defense as well. I think the problem for Murphy is that he doesn't have a great feel for the way this team plays, offensively and defensively, and he has never really been that kind of player that has been the greatest with improvisation. His improvisation has probably just been to shoot the outside shot when he gets the ball, as many have pointed out. And then on defense he is constantly beaten out of place on screens and on rotations. The players and coaches really can't let this "street ball"(Dunleavy) no system(Murphy) type of play continue, especially since it's not so effective. But when this get together takes place, I think we will see Murphy and the rest of the team perform better. On the other hand, just trading players usually brings changes too, or firing coaches. Whichever one the team chooses.
The player that needs to be next to Murphy is not Taft... he needs a pure post player than can pass the ball out of the post and defend NBA centers. Jermaine Oneil, Garnett, Shaq, Duncan, Yao, or even a guy like Vlade although the other team would still score at will with a guy like Vlade next to him... anyone else is not gonna cut it. Therin lies the problem. For Murphy to be truly effective and "fit in" he needs to be playing alongside a superstar because the guy will have to be a great defender, play the post well, and pass well out of the post. I can't think of many other players in the league where this will work. I mean, you could get a guy like Donyell Marshall to do exactly what Murphy's doing for pretty cheap, but finding the guy next to him is MUCH more difficult.
I dunno -- Murphy was probably the Warriors most consistent, reliable scorer during the opening stretch of this season. Go check the stats -- he shot a high percentage from FG, 3PG, and FT, and he was consistently banging down a three or long-range jumper at times when the Warriors needed a bucket. He looked great. But lately, he's been exposed a bit, because if he can't hit his shots, he's a liability. His sharp-shooting masked his defensive deficiencies, passing deficiencies, and sub-par rebounding perfomance. Now, when he tosses up bricks, it suddenly becomes apparent that he can't "make up" for it in other areas of the game.
Very true about Murphy, but in all fairness, he was doing it against some pretty bad basketball teams.
Good analysis guys. BTW Clif you forgot that Murphy is a huge ballhog. Rather than spot other people on the wing he likes to shoot it too much or go with the jab step, pump fake, and then throw it up. The best teams in the league or teams that have seen the playoffs have big men that can pass and defend a little and play in both half court and run n' gun. We won't count the Eastern Atlantic conference, but I'm talking about guys like Brad Miller, Shaq, Yao, Sheed is good, Duncan, Garnett, Bosh could be something, Pau Gasol, etc. If we had at least one big dude in the paint that can play inside, play some d, rebound, and set up other people with good passing, we'd be a lot better off. It's probably why Montgomery will not work for this club unless we get a big man that can dish. We need to work the ball inside before it kicks back out so those perimeter shots can be better looks. Too many times this never happens because there's no inside presence and few guys really can pass or create for other people. It goes Baron Davis, Jason Richardson, Mike Dunleavy Jr., and that's it for passer and creators. Ike and Biedrins have shown flashes. Zarko is probably the best big man passer we've got but he's deficient in a lot of areas at power forward. Fisher can really pass, but he's got terrible vision so forget him. Montay Ellis has some promise. Man... we need to work on ball movement and it starts with upgrading our starting 5 mostly at center, then power forward. Good centers are hard to find these days though...
<div class="quote_poster">Quoting custodianrules2:</div><div class="quote_post">Good analysis guys. BTW Clif you forgot that Murphy is a huge ballhog. Rather than spot other people on the wing he likes to shoot it too much or go with the jab step, pump fake, and then throw it up. The best teams in the league or teams that have seen the playoffs have big men that can pass and defend a little and play in both half court and run n' gun.</div> It seems as if you are saying that the best teams in the league have versitale front courts. I think this is the same for the Warriors, but more because of their depth. It's too bad that they don't often show off this talent so often, or together in more games. Murphy is a ballhog. I don't know if this is right. Maybe a blackhole, maybe. I think the only players who would be ballhogs would be the guards since they carry the ball a lot. And like I said, there is probably some faults with the way the team plays offense, understands the offense, or the likes. I mean Dunleavy has talked about how the team plays street ball, where as Murphy himself has publically told the media of their not being a real system at least that Montgomery/head coach has put in. Also with the lack of off the ball movement in the offense, it's kind of difficult to really find people to pass it too, when you are a post player. Usually in the post you just want to get it to the hoop, because if you pass it out, then you are farther from the basket, and usually the better shots are around the basket. The only times you'd really want to pass out of the post is if you find a cutter to the basket(which may not be so often with the Warriors), or if you are doubled in the paint and so you can pass it out to the open man on the perimeter. I don't think these options are so much available for Murphy so often, so I wouldn't be so negative about lack of passing from Murphy. About who would play best next to Murphy, I don't think it needs to be a post center that passes the ball all of the time. Maybe I am barking up the wrong tree about Chris Taft being the manto play with Murphy, but I think Murphy is best playing with a big body who can play defense, be a presence in the paint defensively(especially and maybe offense too as extra), box out to clear the paint, grab some rebounds, and if he could have some good hands then that would be good too. Really I think a player like Dampier, at least his skills. A tall body, with some good mobility(when he didn't have leg problems), played defense against the big men like Shaq, Brand, Jermaine O'Neal, and who made getting boards for the likes of Murphy so much easier because of being able to clear the paint on the glass. I don't know what the fascination for the passing center is though, especially for this team. I was thinking this team wanted the strong, tough big man, who played defense, blocked shots, and rebounded. We have Baron Davis, Dunleavy, and Jason who can take care of the ball from the starters. Also if you are a player who doesn't succeed so much of defense, then you are usually bound to look bad when you can't get your shot to go. Same with, unfortunately, two other players on the team, Jason and Mike.
<div class="quote_poster">Quote:</div><div class="quote_post">I don't know what the fascination for the passing center is though, especially for this team. I was thinking this team wanted the strong, tough big man, who played defense, blocked shots, and rebounded. We have Baron Davis, Dunleavy, and Jason who can take care of the ball from the starters.</div> "good passer" doesn't have to be Sabonis or Divac...you just need a guy that can pass out of a double team in the post and hold his position in the post. Murphy is the outside of the inside/out game. Right now he's getting all of his points off of screen and rolls and swing passes on the top. Honestly, Murphy would thrive if he went to Indiana. He could seriously do good things in that environment. I'd rather get rid of Murphy for a couple of reasons. 1) It's more difficult to get the right guy next to him at center than to get a post player a the 4 (In fact we have Ike and Taft that can fill in at the 4) and 2) Murphy's has better trade value then Foyle. (Although his contract would be tough to move).
<div class="quote_poster">Quoting Clif25:</div><div class="quote_post">It seems as if you are saying that the best teams in the league have versitale front courts. I think this is the same for the Warriors, but more because of their depth. It's too bad that they don't often show off this talent so often, or together in more games. Murphy is a ballhog. I don't know if this is right. Maybe a blackhole, maybe. I think the only players who would be ballhogs would be the guards since they carry the ball a lot. And like I said, there is probably some faults with the way the team plays offense, understands the offense, or the likes. I mean Dunleavy has talked about how the team plays street ball, where as Murphy himself has publically told the media of their not being a real system at least that Montgomery/head coach has put in. Also with the lack of off the ball movement in the offense, it's kind of difficult to really find people to pass it too, when you are a post player. Usually in the post you just want to get it to the hoop, because if you pass it out, then you are farther from the basket, and usually the better shots are around the basket. The only times you'd really want to pass out of the post is if you find a cutter to the basket(which may not be so often with the Warriors), or if you are doubled in the paint and so you can pass it out to the open man on the perimeter. I don't think these options are so much available for Murphy so often, so I wouldn't be so negative about lack of passing from Murphy. About who would play best next to Murphy, I don't think it needs to be a post center that passes the ball all of the time. Maybe I am barking up the wrong tree about Chris Taft being the manto play with Murphy, but I think Murphy is best playing with a big body who can play defense, be a presence in the paint defensively(especially and maybe offense too as extra), box out to clear the paint, grab some rebounds, and if he could have some good hands then that would be good too. Really I think a player like Dampier, at least his skills. A tall body, with some good mobility(when he didn't have leg problems), played defense against the big men like Shaq, Brand, Jermaine O'Neal, and who made getting boards for the likes of Murphy so much easier because of being able to clear the paint on the glass. I don't know what the fascination for the passing center is though, especially for this team. I was thinking this team wanted the strong, tough big man, who played defense, blocked shots, and rebounded. We have Baron Davis, Dunleavy, and Jason who can take care of the ball from the starters. Also if you are a player who doesn't succeed so much of defense, then you are usually bound to look bad when you can't get your shot to go. Same with, unfortunately, two other players on the team, Jason and Mike.</div> Points taken, Clif. I guess what I meant to say was that Murphy doesn't look to set up other people when he has the ball whether people are moving or not. He is a catch and shoot shooter like Fisher who develops tunnel vision when he has the ball. But I guess there's nothing he can do when others don't move without the ball consistently or accurately. Troy Murphy is a very good passer when he sees a play, but sometimes he's not creative enough to see it happening on the fly like Dunleavy, Zarko or Baron Davis do. So I guess my biggest beef with the Warriors big men is they don't set screens very well, they set them too late, they don't move well when they're trying to move without the ball. All this problem we have is with floor spacing, screens, toughness in the paint, inside help D and the fact we're not generating enough offense in the paint for high % points. That and rebounding. But anyway, I would prefer a strong post player in there because at least with the post player inside, it doesn't necessarily equate to direct assists, but it opens up the perimeter to do more things like shoot a much better looking three point shot or a midrange jumper in one of the open pockets. But yeah, the W's can't improve in one season that much unless one of our rookies breaks out like Amare Stoudamire did when Nash came to town. If we get aggressive inside play and we move the ball well, rebound, it will rain high % threes, and we can start running more because everyone is afraid of getting beat by our big men. Guards can get back in time, but man if Kmart or Amare is bearing down on you, guards can't do anything but foul.
Bear in mind that the intended outcome of the offense may be to get an open J for Murphy or Fisher. When they get it,they are supposed to shoot..and hit. I personally would rather see more focus on getting a midrange shot,as 3's are fickle friends. Murpy's D is not good,but we tend to exaggerate it down to extreme levels. Murphy gets in about the right area,but without enough commitment,he has to get a little closer,to move his feet,have the arms up and moving,be a distraction. He has to believe he can do something to lower the shooters FG% by 10%. That is do-able. We don't need Troy to be a point forward,he has to take the good shot,to pass for a teamate to get the good shot otherwise...and he has to get back to that 10+ rbd pace. I think Murphy is fine with whatever role he has to play,but the W's,specifically Monty,has to make it clearer what that role is.
<div class="quote_poster">Quote:</div><div class="quote_post">Bear in mind that the intended outcome of the offense may be to get an open J for Murphy or Fisher. When they get it,they are supposed to shoot..and hit.</div> It this is the case, then we should expect to miss the playoffs for years to come
<div class="quote_poster">Quoting REREM:</div><div class="quote_post">Bear in mind that the intended outcome of the offense may be to get an open J for Murphy or Fisher. When they get it,they are supposed to shoot..and hit. </div> You are probably right about this, since the focal point of offense will always be Baron or Jrich, we can get wide open shot type scoring production from the team's best shooters. Unfortunately, because we lack so much inside scoring presence, teams dare us to shoot or they get out on the shooter too quickly. Quick, uncontested jumpers are only good if you have players who can master the midrange game first and foremost, since the three ball is a dangerous shot to take and often it leads to fastbreaks going the other way. We've also the need to get big rebounders, big screen setters, and guys who will just play physical so the finesse guys can do their thing. I just think there's something wrong when our rebounding/screen setting seemed better when we had Erick Dampier and Clif Robinson inside. Cliffy ain't the best rebounder, but he was a solid all around player that could at least play defense, set picks and make the extra pass. Foyle and Murphy set the weakest picks and they are too much of liabilities in certain areas. Let's just say with Murphy, he won't be a defensive presence and I think he interupts the offensive flow of things too much since his movement off the ball will be slow or static. But I guess we'll be patient because that's why Mullin went and got guys like Ike and Taft and a coach like Monty who knows about floor spacing and all those other fundamentals many fans don't really understand. Again, it's like the General who has only infantry to fight with, but no air support, artillery or armor on the ground. Maybe we've got a few weapons, but they're not reliable or we have to use what we've got first or what the troops are trained to fight with. No time for training when the war is on. Identity is an issue with this club as it always has been, until some tricked themselves into believing Baron Davis would singlehandedly solve all the problems and give this club a 'run n' gun' type of identity. But we can't get out on every single team because we're not that athletic and we're not that good of a free throw shooting team and we're too static. Running teams have to beat most defenses back, make swift cuts without the ball and when they get fouled, they have to connect at the line. If you look at the Suns, they shoot a respectable % from the line for being a perimeter team for the most part, they're always in motion, they're athletic, because of that their able to get rebounds for such a small team. Then they also move without the ball since Nash's passes often come without the overdribble that Baron and Fish tend to do. If we can cut down on overdribble and just get open for Baron and recognize where the good shots are, we can improve a bit with a perimeter oriented lineup.
