Pippen On Kobe's 81

<div class="quote_poster">Quote:</div><div class="quote_post">Kobe Bryant's 81-point performance the other night against Toronto was certainly incredible, but it is unfair to try and compare what Kobe did to what Michael Jordan did in his playing career or what he could have done for that matter.
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A very interesting article. Certainly, I have to take his word for it because I was too young in Jordan's prime.But for you older guys who have lived during the Jordan's prime, what are your comments about this article?

 

The point that Pippen brings up about a guy like Tony Parker was VERY valid (that's why you guys should read the whole article before you assume that Pip is just trying to hate).

However, Pip hated Kobe and Rick Fox and all those guys when he was a player. So maybe he is just trying to hate on Kobe.

 

I am not saying Pippen hates Kobe, but I remember he did not like him when Blazers were getting beat by Lakers. I remember Pippen saying Kobe was making up the rib injury just to try to seem more heroic. Although that probably has nothing to do with this. lol

 

The new rules do give some advantages to players like Kobe, but it's not like he was living on the foul line. 20 free throw attempts on 46 shots isn't that big a ratio.

I think defenses nowadays are more sophisticated, in general. There were some spectalurarly terrible defensive teams in the 80s and early 90s (yes, even worse than the Raptors), which Jordan could take advantage of. Denver Nuggets, anyone?

He brings up Tony Parker shooting 55%. But in the 80s and early 90s, several guards had percentages around that same mark.

If it's so much easier to score these days, why are there so few players shooting over 50% from the field? Why do you have teams limiting opponents to under 90 points routinely? Team field goal percentage is down drastically across the board -- surely that has to do, in part, with better team defensive schemes.

In the last 10 years, there's been an incredible jump in talent for athletic wing players, and that's why there's such a huge gap between the upper echelon perimeter players and most everyone else. It isn't that defenses are really bad, but rather that there are a handful of players who are off the charts offensively (guys like Kobe, Iverson, LeBron, McGrady, Wade, Carter, Pierce, etc.).

 

Very good points durvasa I agree with everything!!

 

<div class="quote_poster">Quoting durvasa:</div><div class="quote_post">He brings up Tony Parker shooting 55%. But in the 80s and early 90s, several guards had percentages around that same mark. </div>

That's because guards in those decades realized that the trey is overrated. I think his point about Tony Parker is more that he's not a shooter. TP doesn't even beat people off the dribble on his own, he uses picks the whole game. It's not hard to shoot a high % when most of your points are coming in the paint.

Nobody that size should be shooting 55%.

 

Kobe must of been really fatgiued after the game taking that many shots wears you out. Lucky he has 4 days off.

 

<div class="quote_poster">Quoting Jurassic:</div><div class="quote_post">That's because guards in those decades realized that the trey is overrated. I think his point about Tony Parker is more that he's not a shooter. TP doesn't even beat people off the dribble on his own, he uses picks the whole game. It's not hard to shoot a high % when most of your points are coming in the paint.

Nobody that size should be shooting 55%.</div>

Is it bad defense, or just good offense?

I think little guys got shots in the paint MUCH more regularly 15-20 years ago than they do now. Parker is something of an anamoly in today's game.

 

<div class="quote_poster">Quoting durvasa:</div><div class="quote_post">The new rules do give some advantages to players like Kobe, but it's not like he was living on the foul line. 20 free throw attempts on 46 shots isn't that big a ratio.

I think defenses nowadays are more sophisticated, in general. There were some spectalurarly terrible defensive teams in the 80s and early 90s (yes, even worse than the Raptors), which Jordan could take advantage of. Denver Nuggets, anyone?

He brings up Tony Parker shooting 55%. But in the 80s and early 90s, several guards had percentages around that same mark.

If it's so much easier to score these days, why are there so few players shooting over 50% from the field? Why do you have teams limiting opponents to under 90 points routinely? Team field goal percentage is down drastically across the board -- surely that has to do, in part, with better team defensive schemes.
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Isn't this why people are complaining about the quality of the NBA? The lost of the mid range shot, good shooters, everyone wanting to dunk, shoot 3's....etc that no guards in the NBA are good at shooting anymore?

 

Players are more offensively gifted these days, but scoring and offense are down because ball-movement and mid-renge jumpers have become a lost art. I'm sick of seeing so many isolations.

 

<div class="quote_poster">Quoting durvasa:</div><div class="quote_post">Is it bad defense, or just good offense?

I think little guys got shots in the paint MUCH more regularly 15-20 years ago than they do now. Parker is something of an anamoly in today's game.</div>

To answer your first question I'd say it's a little bit of both. There are two extremely stong defensive teams in the league right now; the Pistons and Spurs. Obviously Tony Parker is on the Spurs, and he only plays the Pistons twice a year. As far as offense goes, Duncan sets a lot of picks for him one of the two defenders (usually the guard) has to stay with Duncan when he rolls. That lets Parker blow past the big man defender.

Even if the guard chooses to stay with Tony he can't hand check him or it's a foul, this makes it easy for Parker to blow past them. It's smart offense on the Spurs' part but Parker shouldn't get credit for it. His 55% fg is misleading because he isn't even creating his own shots.

I don't really consider Parker that rare AI does it plenty. If AI had been playing with a big man that could score his career fg % would probably be a lot higher too.

 

<div class="quote_poster">Quote:</div><div class="quote_post">I don't really consider Parker that rare AI does it plenty. If AI had been playing with a big man that could score his career fg % would probably be a lot higher too.</div>
As you can see this year with Webber, even though his scoring is not that impressive percentage wise, AI's percentages are up, a lot.

 

I don't think Pippen was hating that even though in the past he has hated on not only Kobe, but Charles Barkley and even MJ, ( oh how every one forgets so easy) Kobe's 81 points is great but just imagine if Air Jordan perfected his three point shot, man he would have almost average sixty. Did anyone know that David Robinson once scored 70 points, I'm not sure if thats true or not . But thats what I heard.

 

when did Pip ever hate on MJ? what did he say?

 

Pippen does have some interesting points and I doubt any of us truly know mare than him about the differences between the MJ era and the Kobe era. But I sense a hint of bias in his breakdown of the "comparison".

For one... we have to understand that the NBA rules now protect the players offensively more than it did a decade ago for sure. But to what extent is that balanced out by players that are faster, stronger, and bigger? To what extent have coaches and teams been able to exert themselves defensively using team defense and team strategies being improved more and more every year?

To me the answer is simple. It would seem easiest for the fans and players of the 90s to believe that in their era players were superior offensively and defensively. But, lets be honest with ourselves, is that really probable? It might be probable that in this era there is no player quite as good as a Jordan. But the average players in the 90s can't have been better than the average players of the new millenium could they? Over a 10 year span the OVERALL quality of players in the league has diminished when in every other sport athletes are getting better, and faster, and stronger, and quicker? Nah. I don't buy that. The very fact that teams score less and that the NBA has tweaked their rules year after year to generate more offense is a testament to the evolution of these athletes and their abilities to dominate on both ends of the court. There are now players with as much athletic ability as a Jordan who are completely focused on defense and stopping their guy. The rules don't make it easier for players to score... the rules are meant to limit these players ability to defend. Defense is less about instinct and more about strategy and fundamentals and so its not as difficult to take an athletic freak of nature and mold him into a defensive juggernaut. The leagues rules try to offset that. If two hand checking were allowed in today's game then be prepared to see 60 point games more regularly. The players of today are too strong to allow them to hand check and do the things Jordan and Pippen were allowed to do defensively.

Another HUGE hole in Pippen's theory is his one-sidedness. If Jordan was at a dis-advantage offensively because of what was allowed back then, then it follows that he was also at a huge advantage defensively. My point? Well maybe Kobe does not trail Jordan in defensive prowess as the Jordan fans would profess. Its unfair to say Jordan had it harder offensively than Kobe or T-Mac does without admitting that he MUST have had it easier defensively.

In the end its too difficult to compare eras because of our inherent and respective biases. Thompson insisted that his 77 was better than Kobe's 81 because he didn't have the three point line... which also means he believes his 71 was better than Jordan's 69 or 62 and consider Wilt couldn't make threes also Wilt's 100. Why would he think that? Bias. He believes he had to play against tougher defenders and had to shoot the ball that much better because he didn't have the added bonus of a three point field goal. Subsequently, Pippen and Jordan believe his highest score is the best anyone has ever done because it adjucates their performances as superior to the players of other eras.

The truth is no one great performance is truly superior to the other. They will be judged on the era you "lived" in.

 

<div class="quote_poster">Quoting Dreamsarereal:</div><div class="quote_post">Did anyone know that David Robinson once scored 70 points, I'm not sure if thats true or not . But thats what I heard.</div>

You've heard of google, right? These kind of things aren't difficult to confirm.

As for how the new rules have benefitted quick, athletic perimeter players -- here's a pretty good breakdown:

http://sportsillustrated.cnn.com/2006/writ...ring/index.html

I won't go so far as to say that defenses, in general, are worse than 15 years ago. But in the past few years rule changes and officiating have benefited quick perimeter players. It was evident last year, and it's even more obvious this year (clearly, teams caught on and are doing whatever they can to exploit it). Does this mean these same players wouldn't have been nearly as good playing 15 years ago? I don't think so, because overall team defense has still improved between then and now. However, compared to maybe five years ago, it is probably easier.

 

Man that is a tough one to call, who has or had it easier in the Nba now and or the past. I remember someone asked Bill Russell and Wilt Chamberlan would they dominate in todays style of play and without hesitation both replied yes. When it comes down to it, it's the mentality of the player. Back when I was in high-school coaches, unless you played football didn't really stress lifting weights, now it almost goes without saying. If you don't lift, prepare to get muscled off the court. My point is, Jordan set the bar of basketball excellance at a vey high level, and now you have the next generation trying to reach that level such as Kobe, AI, VC, and now Lebron, D Wade and so on. If Kobe was playing in Jordan's era that would have been wonderful because they would have brought the best out of each other, however when it's all said and done I think Mike put up the heavy numbers when it matter most for example 63 in the play-offs at boston, where the bulls when on to win on the road. Even though it was only on game and they didn't win the series but still. Kobe hit 81 one in a regular season game against the raptors. The Raptors. I don't know I'm still riding with Mike.

 

Of course they would say yes, but in reality its an unknown answer.

 

I won't go so far as to say that defenses, in general, are worse than 15 years ago. But in the past few years rule changes and officiating have benefited quick perimeter players. It was evident last year, and it's even more obvious this year (clearly, teams caught on and are doing whatever they can to exploit it). Does this mean these same players wouldn't have been nearly as good playing 15 years ago? I don't think so, because overall team defense has still improved between then and now. However, compared to maybe five years ago, it is probably easier.[/QUOTE]



You won't, but I will. Think about it. 15 years ago athletes were not getting the mega bucks there are now, they were playing for the love of the game more so.
Today's professional athlete is basicly set for life . If they invest right and don't spend up thier money crazy. What does this have to do with defense and the overall comparison of the past and present, well Kobe Bryant is a clear example of a guy that loves to compete to the point where he would work-out like a mad man in the off season where a lot of other "players" are looking for the hottest clubs or having wieght issues when they check into training camp. I think it's not so much a question of the rules changing the game it's the players that allow the rules to change them. Clear example. I went to a magic game when Tmac was still playing there and let me tell you Ive seen with my own eyes NBA players on a consist basis playing "matador"
defense without any regards to being pull out of the game. Where is the passion? Thats one thing I will give to Kobe he is one of the most competetive guys in sports hands down.