<div class="quote_poster">Quoting MrJ:</div><div class="quote_post">Okay, next time. It’s hard arguing all of your points like that.</div> Thanks. It's okay if you break it up into paragraphs but sometimes you just respond to one or two sentences and it's just... <div class="quote_poster">Quoting MrJ:</div><div class="quote_post">Don’t blame the Knicks becoming worse on Kurt Thomas that’s asinine. Kurt Thomas was a very good defender, but his defense didn’t have a significant effect on our team’s defense. When he was here we gave up 100 points and when he left we now give up 101 points. Is another sacrificed point such a big difference? If the Knicks suck on defense, why is our best defender on the bench? Don’t give me they’re better players ahead of him. Ariza isn’t good on offense, but neither is Rose, Richardson, or James. Taylor and Lee were both playing significant minutes together during the win streak, so why can’t they play together again? And what does the low post presence matter anyway? What matters is the Knicks play better with Lee on the floor then they do with Taylor. I also notice you said the Knicks don’t rebound. Did you have any idea they’re 8th in the league in rebounds per game? More of YOUR imaginary stats I suppose. Don’t give me the teams go in a tailspin because he leaves when Brown senses losing he leaves. I like Brown to, but you really have to hop off of him. By his own admission: <font size="2">“It starts with me, I've got to do better," Brown said.</font> <font size="2">A person familiar with the situation said the Knicks players are confused by Brown's changing rotations and his critiques to the media. Consequently, the person said, the players haven't bonded off the court and there's no on-court chemistry either.</font> That has an effect on a team. 30 starting lineups in 48 games with numerous rotation changes has an effect on a team. You expect Brown’s trashing to the media is going to help the team? The players have said they don’t appreciate Brown doing that and it’s just further alienating the team. If you gave this team a regular coach with a consistent starting lineup and rotation I think this team can be decent.</div> Kurt Thomas leaving makes more sense for the Knicks worse defense than Larry Brown's rotations. What does that have to do with defense??? You dont need a consistent starting line up to put in the effort! You just dont! Now if you said the Knicks are turnover prone and dont have a good flow to their offense because of the constant tinkering then maybe I would agree with you. But even then it's not that big of a difference. Saying that the Knicks would be a .500 team right now if Larry Brown wasnt shifting the rotation around is simply ludicrous. As for Larry Brown criticizing the team, there would be no criticizm if the team would at the very least compete. Larry Brown can say all he wants about how he needs to do better but everyone knows this is beyond even Larry Brown's ability to fix. It is a well documented fact that his teams do badly after he leaves. If you dont know that much...what can I say? I dont recall saying the Knicks dont rebound in this thread but tell me how they fare in the defensive rebounding category when their not playing in garbage time that is. <div class="quote_poster">Quoting MrJ:</div><div class="quote_post">Yes, please do.</div> Remind me later. I'm honestly too tired to look now maybe over the weekend. <div class="quote_poster">Quoting MrJ:</div><div class="quote_post">Shelden Williams and Tiago Splitter are two different cases. Shelden Williams is very strong physically and has the experience of playing four years under the best coach in college basketball under one of the best, if not THE best basketball program in the nation in Duke. Can you really compare him to Splitter who’s playing overseas against many undrafted NBA players? Oh, yeah. Euroleague is better than NCAA Basketball, right?</div> I knew this would come up again. I'm going to keep this short. There are several ways to look at how the NCAA compares to Euroleague action. Here's one way: Tiago Splitter is a role player in the Euroleague. Shelden Williams is one of the best big men in the NCAA right now. Ten out of ten scouts will tell you Tiago Splitter is easily the better player. So a role player in the Euroleague is better than one of the top NCAA players. Here's another way of looking at it: If you took the best NCAA team and have them play in the NBA they wouldnt even be competitive against any NBA team! Hell you could probably bring together an All Star team of NCAA players and they would still lose. Meanwhile a few months ago a Euroleague team beat an NBA team. Here's another way of looking at it: Let's just say you're right and the average Euroleague player is nothing more than an NCAA player who couldnt cut it in the NBA. The average NCAA player has no chance of making it to the NBA or of playing in Europe. I'll put it one more way for you: Predrag Drobnjak just last year was in the NBA. There were quite a few teams interested in acquiring his services but he decided to go to go play in Europe. The average NBA player would dominate in the NCAA. Drobnjak is currently rotting on the bench in Europe behind none other than Tiago Splitter. As is clearly obvious from the way Tiago Splitter plays(great fundamentals, good passer, great foot work, great defense, no mistakes, high basketball IQ) it's obvious he's as well coached as ANYprospect in this draft. And about what shapecity said, when was this game and who was he matched up against in the clip? <div class="quote_poster">Quoting MrJ:</div><div class="quote_post">When Camby first got into the league he was abused by centers and he has more muscle than Splitter. Same thing goes for Bosh. That’s why he’s not playing center anymore. You’re too obsessed with that DraftExpress website. Those player comparison things are really just an afterthought. You put too much on them. They also said Julius Hodge’s best case scenario was Penny Hardaway and his worst case scenario was Marquis Daniels. Also that DraftExpress website says Bargani has absolutely no post up game. Who should I believe you or the scouts?</div> First of all Draftexpress isnt my only source. It's just my main source. If you just use your computer and research on him you'll see most people say he's a definite center. Second of all Draftexpress is the premier source for information on draft prospects. What does Hodge have to do with anything? And how is Daniels doing? That profile on Bargnani outdated. And Nowitzki didnt have a real post up game in Europe either. <div class="quote_poster">Quoting MrJ:</div><div class="quote_post">So, what makes you so sure Splitter will enter this year? I mean he dropped out the last two years. What if he can’t get a buyout this year? And I doubt Splitter will be able to put enough muscle necessary to play center in the NBA immediately.</div> Whoever said anything about Splitter playing center immediately? I simply said he was going to end up being the better player down the road. Splitter has just said he is going to complete his contract with his team before he comes over to the NBA. So he might stay in because it wont make a difference where he ends up since he'll have no buyout problem or he might withdraw because his stock is low(because of his statement)and he wants to get as drafted as high as possible. So by the time he comes over he'll have added enough muscle to be strong enough to play center in the NBA. <div class="quote_poster">Quoting MrJ:</div><div class="quote_post">The fact that he averages 50% from downtown doesn’t really impress me much. How many rebounds does he average? How many times does he get to the line? Does he create his own shot or does he just thrive off of penetration. I know you’re going to say something about Frye not creating his own shots, but he’s starting to do that more and more, especially down low. Not sure, but I think Nowitzki was averaging more points and field goal attempts, so his field goal percentage wasn’t as high. You can check on that if you want. Of course I know he’s going to face his share of bad defenders and good defenders in Euroleague. They’re bad defenders and good defenders everywhere. What difference does it make? Do you understand that a bad defender in the NBA could be a solid defender elsewhere? So, someone like Curry can go to the NBA and be an okay defender. I’ve seen Bargani play and I’ve read about him and I know he has good potential and just as much as Curry. But you’re saying that he’s a sure thing when he’s not.</div> So someone who shoots 50% from downtown doesnt impress you?! Wow. You must be tough to impress. Anyway he averages 3 rebounds per game in 19 minutes. It should be kept in mind that he sometimes plays small foward. He most certainly creates his own shot. Half court defense set up and everything. He likes to take his man off the dribble and go straight to the basket and finish with a dunk or a lay up although he does occasionally pull up for the jumper when he meets heavy resistance near the basket. If his man sags off of him he just shoots the jumper. Nowitzki if I remember correctly played against significantly weaker competition as well so I think it evens out. Curry just might be a worse defender in Europe than he is now considering the skill level of the average big man there. Nothing is a sure thing in draft prospects, life or anything else. But if he stays in Europe and comes over when he is ready he will almost certainly be better than Curry. No doubt about it. By the way if you've seen him play and read about him than why are you asking if he can create his own shot? And why are you comparing him to Frye? <div class="quote_poster">Quoting MrJ:</div><div class="quote_post">Here are a few quality posts by quality members regarding Rudy Gay:</div> I read the posts and again I say I dont care if Gay becomes a star or not. I said he will be better than Curry. He doesnt have to be a star to be better than Curry. And furthermore were these statements made before or after his recent stretch of good games? <div class="quote_poster">Quoting MrJ:</div><div class="quote_post">I don’t know if Morrison will be better than Curry. Who am I to make such a strong statement with a player who hasn’t played an NBA game yet? How is a 6’6” shooting guard undersized? You’re not making any sense now. The main reason why he slipped so far was because he had a bad junior year.</div> What's this? <div class="quote_poster">Quoting MrJ:</div><div class="quote_post">I think so. When you’re coach is trashing you publicly to the media, has 30 different starting lineups around midseason, and changes rotations as quickly as the wind blows, do you think that has an effect on the progress of a team? That’s plain stupid. The inconsistency Brown brings to the table and the way he uses the media to degrade the players has caused inconsistency on and off the court. Instead of feeling like a team, they feel alienated from one another. What do you mean who cares about the Bulls? That’s a cop out. Address the situation. The Bulls are struggling because of the lack of Curry’s presence. The Bulls have a better future than us and are in a better situation than us. I’m not arguing that.</div> I just said that I do think it would affect certain aspects of a team. But you're just exaggerating the effect. The team was bad last year and it's bad this year. It's not like we were a .500 team last year so saying a consistent rotation would have had us at .500 now is ridiculous. Especially considering the reason why the Knicks record is so bad is because of their effort level and defense which shouldnt be affected by the rotation. I didnt want to get into the Bulls because we have enough things to argue about. It is a fact that when a team has a breakout year they do worse the following year. That is probably what happened to the Bulls. This year their problem has been their defense(they led the league in defensive field goal% I believe)and we both know that Curry doesnt make a difference in that area of basketball. Tyson Chandler up until a few games ago has been playing truly atrocious basketball. They probably miss Antonio Davis more than they miss Curry. <div class="quote_poster">Quoting MrJ:</div><div class="quote_post">No, you’re ignorant for putting words in my mouth. Please tell me what I made up. In the summer I had no idea Brown would be doing what he’s doing. He said it himself I need to do a better job coaching. For you to say it has no affect on the team is completely ridiculous. I already said this isn’t a great team, but it is better than their record.</div> You made up what you said about Frye and Bosh being stronger than Splitter. You dont know that. You dont have any real sources. You just made it up. You also said Bargnani was less polished than Frye which is a blatant perversion of the truth. You also made up what you said about Bargnani not averaging more than 10 points per game. I'll ask you again: Who has to fail with this team before you admit the team is the problem? Phil Jackson? Scott Skiles? Nate McMillan? Mike D'Antoni? Jerry Sloan? <div class="quote_poster">Quoting MrJ:</div><div class="quote_post">About Nazr Mohammed being an all-star I said: http://www.justbball.com/forums/showthread...t=nazr+all-star About Nazr Mohammed being an all-star you said: http://www.justbball.com/forums/showthread...t=nazr+all-star http://www.justbball.com/forums/showthread...t=nazr+all-star ---------- I don’t remember calling Mohammed a bum. I do, however, remember calling him expendable considering we got two first round picks (one who happened to be David Lee) for him. Also, after his injury he was never the same player since the beginning of the season. I’ll be the first to admit I’ve said many bias things over the years, but you, as the quotes show, have done so, too.</div> I remember what I said. I said he deserved to be an All Star in the East. I was using the stats to make my case and those are what the numbers said. They said he should go to the All Star game...with that being said I plea to temporary insanity. I was annoyed at all the other fans coming to the board and I fell victim to a serious case of homerism...ok fine you caught me red handed but I'm not nearly as bias as you are and I didnt call Nazr expendable after he was traded either. Now that I just admitted you caught me can you please unbolden what I said in my posts...please! <div class="quote_poster">Quoting MrJ:</div><div class="quote_post">Doesn’t really matter. I don’t find 9.9 points a game impressive.</div> Well now he's averaging 10.6 points per game in 19 minutes per game. Good enough for you? <div class="quote_poster">Quoting MrJ:</div><div class="quote_post">No, I wouldn’t make the trade as I said for the 1000th time.</div> You didnt say that a thousand times. There you go just making stuff up again... <div class="quote_poster">Quoting MrJ:</div><div class="quote_post">I’ve read about all the major prospects in the 2006 draft and especially the 2006. You don’t know the kind of research and knowledge I have about the draft. I’m not overrating Curry. Where in this thread have I overrated him? In fact, I’ve been very critical of him this season.</div> Come on! You obviously havent read about all the major prospects. You'd know that Tiago Splitter will be able to play center in the NBA. You'd know he has a midrange jumper. You wouldnt be comparing Bargnani to Frye and you wouldnt ask what makes him so different from all the other players who were compared to Dirk. <div class="quote_poster">Quoting MrJ:</div><div class="quote_post">Let me re-clarify myself. About Larry Brown: He hasn’t coached this team well and said it on many occasions. Without all the distractions and confusion, I think the Knicks could be around .500. I don’t think that’s farfetched to think. Curry Trade: I didn’t like the trade because our pick wasn’t protected. If it was protected, like I thought it was in the beginning, I would be in favor of it. The 2006 Draft: It’s a well-known fact this draft isn’t going to be great. It has a few guys with some good upsides in the beginning, but it greatly declines towards the late first round and second round. Prospects: I know some of the players in this years draft can be good, but you’re speaking so definitively of them like they’re established superstars in the NBA.</div> Larry Brown: Who has to fail with this team before you admit the problem is the team? Curry Trade: Ok 2006 draft: It's an alright draft. It's not great but it's not nearly as bad as you make it out to be. The first round is good at first but declines in quality late in the round and the second round is your typical second round. Prospects: I'm not saying their going to be stars. I'm saying that they'll likely be better than Curry. Anyway I love debating with you MrJ. Granted you let your homerism get out of control sometimes but there's noone else on this entire site that I can make these monster posts with. We've gone from Splitter to Larry Brown's coaching to Euroleague versus NCAA to the Bulls and ended with Nazr Mohammed. Shall we discuss global warming next? Or whether or not Bush is breaking any laws when he spys on people without obtaining a warrant? Anyway I think Isiah Thomas should be fired.
I'm kind of tired, but I'll be brief and we'll end it here. Maybe the Knicks wouldn't be at .500, but I'm sure they will be in a better position then they would be had all of those different starting lineups. I think they would still be in a position where grabbing the 8th seed wouldn't be out of reach. Granted, it would mean four blowout losses in the postseason against the Pistons, but it's better than nothing. My point is, although the Knicks aren't a great team, they're better than what their record indicates because of Brown's early season tinkering. Tiago Splitter is alright and I've seen him play before and while I think he can be solid in the league and better than Curry, I just think it will be better off waiting to see how they play in the NBA. Same goes for Bargani. I know he has potential and has been the closest thing to Dirk since Dirk, but the only way I'll be sold on him is when I see him in the NBA. With that said, I would prefer him along with my other second rounders and my chance at Greg Oden over Curry. J.J. Reddick has done well in college, but there are plenty of factors surrounding his game such as how he will deal with his lack of NBA-level quickness/athleticism and his height. Will he last in the league? I think so, but I think Curry who, despite his annoying foul troubles and rebounding/defending deficiencies, can still produce about 15 points and 6.5 rebounds at the same age as Reddick. Because we didn't protect our pick is why I don't like the Curry trade. I actually made a rant regarding my displeasure for the Curry trade. I'm just saying while the prospects can be better than Curry, they're only a few that you know will be immediate contributors for years to come. Yes, sometimes I know I can say some real bias things, but that's all a part of growing up with the Knicks, I guess. Anyway, we'll see how everything turns out. So, for now, I guess we'll just have to agree to disagree. I know we can agree on this though: Anyway, I think Isiah Thomas should be fired.
I don't know what Larry Brown was thinking when he wanted to leave Detroit. Bad move on his part. The Knicks have rebuild this franchise, they always find a way to screw it up.
