I think Kobe Bryant is the most overated player in NBA history, of course he is a great player, but some of the garbage I have read in this topic goes to prove my point, better than Shaq? better than Malone? better than KG? Give me a break. Forget Kobe, why arnt we talking about Allen Iverson? Now while I know stats dont amount to everything, A.I has Kobe beat on every single career stat category totals and averages (except for rebounding and blocks which is only due to Kobe being taller) and both players were drafted the same year. Kobe has only had 1 season (this season) where he has averaged over 30.0ppg, compared to Allen Iverson who has had 4 seaons averaging over 30.0+. Not to mention Kobe has 20 more games on Iverson. Yeah you can claim how AI has never won a title or never been as successful as Kobe, but these past 2 seasons has proven how Kobe is unable to be successful without Shaq. If Kobe never had Shaq, I highly doubt L.A would ever have won a title. While look at how Shaq has done in Miami, one game from the finals last year, and definatley playoff bound again this season.
Good lord.. please PLEASE don't even mention kobe in the same breath as shaq he's a great player and one of the best of all time but for the love of god.. go to NBA.com, and look at Shaq's career. He's probably the only center in the history of the NBA worth comparing to Wilt.. and Shaq played in the modern era ;[
I wouldnt even say Kobe is one of the best of all time, I think he still has to prove that he is, anyone with half a brain knows Shaq made Kobe a better player and not the other way around, so in my mind Kobe (as an individual) still has alot to prove to me before I call him one of the greatest NBA players to ever play the game. You look at all of the players considered the "greatest" in NBA history, guys like Jordan, Kareem, Chamberlain, Russell, Shaq etc. they're all leaders, they led by example, somthing Kobe is yet/hasnt been able to do. But in saying that, I think he has shown this season that he is ready to take that role, however it will take a few more seasons of leading and at least a finals appearance before <u>I</u> even consider Kobe one of the greatest of all time.
<div class="quote_poster">Quoting durvasa:</div><div class="quote_post"> That's an interesting argument you make about Barkley. Where exactly has Kobe gone in the post-Shaq era? Barkley was the most skilled PF to ever play the game. Offensively, I think he was a top-15 player, all time. And of course, he was the best rebounder ever at his size. No other player in the history of the game averaged a double-double for as many consecutive seasons. He was probably the best player on the first Dream Team, if you watched them play. You might think he's overrated, but I actually consider him slightly underrated. He was a phenomenal talent.</div> Oh, I've watched him play plenty. He was my uncles favorite. He was a great player. I didnt say he shouldnt be ranked as a top 50 in History. He deserved his spot. Its just alot of people rank him as the greatest PF to play the game. I think Karl Malone easily outranks him. Passing, rebounding, scoring, and health? Karl is in a league of his own. Barkley is overrated. Considered the best PF in the NBA is pushing it. I think Karl is King .
<div class="quote_poster">Quoting trenchteam:</div><div class="quote_post">Oh, I've watched him play plenty. He was my uncles favorite. He was a great player. I didnt say he shouldnt be ranked as a top 50 in History. He deserved his spot. Its just alot of people rank him as the greatest PF to play the game. I think Karl Malone easily outranks him. Passing, rebounding, scoring, and health? Karl is in a league of his own. Barkley is overrated. Considered the best PF in the NBA is pushing it. I think Karl is King .</div> Like you, I wouldn't go so far as to call Barkley the best PF of all time. He was too mediocre defensively for that. It could be Malone (if you consider longevity), or maybe even Tim Duncan if you consider leadership and playoff success. A lot of the old timers might say it was Bob Pettit.
<div class="quote_poster">Quoting The Soft Parade:</div><div class="quote_post">Yeah then you corrected yourself. Once Kobe hit the 81 mark, I think that lowered him down to the top 30 greatest ever.</div> EVERYONE MAKES A BIG DEAL ABOUT THIS 81 POINT GAME! 81 POINTS NOW IS NOT LIKE 81 POINTS 10-20 YEARS AGO! jeez guys...cant you see the number of players scoring 28+ ppg, and the average score of games? Dont those abnormally high numbers lead you to believe that the rules implemented over the past few years have allowed players, more specifically guards, to score much much more than they were previously able to? Sure Kobe's talented...but drop the 81 point BS...its really meaningless. its like a Jordan 50 point game in my opinion. Plus it came against arguably the worst defence in the league on their worst defensive night of the season AND the refs were calling every single touch foul out there and a few that werent. It didnt matter if Toronto doubled or tripled Kobe. Why? Because none of them were able to get within a 5 feet of him without being charged with a foul. Kobe's great. Dont compare him with the Bird's, Magic's or Jordans for a few reasons 1) he hasnt lead his team to the playoffs yet..let alone a ring...LET ALONE many rings. mang he hasnt lead his team to a +500 season yet even! 2) its a different time. different defenses, different rules. Give him time. Maybe eventually he'll be top 30...but for now i dont think he belongs on the list. Only current players that belong on that list are Shaq and Duncan
Kobe is the most overated player EVER in the NBA. The mear fact that some people mention him in the same sentance as MJ is obserd.
By himself, unique offensive skills that enable him to see the ball into the basket with defenders draped on him. Capable of scoring at will and carrying his team to victory. His feared presence makes his team a contender. A future and present legend.
Does anyone have that book that lists the 50 greatest players using stats? Shaq is #1, then Wilt, then Jordan. Kobe statistically comes in at # 18. Tim Duncan is # 9. I also read Mark Heisler's book on the Laker dynasties and he talks about how Kobe at one point in the 2000 season (after their first championship) started gunning like crazy and in one game all of his teammates were pretty upset with him when he scored 51 points but wouldn't pass the ball. Kobe later apologised to them after he hurt his ankle and when he came back was so good with sharing the ball that Rick Fox made comments about how much Kobe made each of them better. This was WHILE Shaq was playing and WHILE he wasn't (Shaq missed something like 32 games that season). Fox mentioned that Kobe gave him 3 or 4 easy jump shots a night. Why is it people still insist that Kobe does not make his teammates better is beyond me.
<div class="quote_poster">Quoting 02civic:</div><div class="quote_post">EVERYONE MAKES A BIG DEAL ABOUT THIS 81 POINT GAME! 81 POINTS NOW IS NOT LIKE 81 POINTS 10-20 YEARS AGO! <font color="red">You are right. Its HARDER!!!</font> jeez guys...cant you see the number of players scoring 28+ ppg, and the average score of games? Dont those abnormally high numbers lead you to believe that the rules implemented over the past few years have allowed players, more specifically guards, to score much much more than they were previously able to? Sure Kobe's talented...but drop the 81 point BS...its really meaningless. its like a Jordan 50 point game in my opinion. <font color="red">Utter rubbish. The average scores in NBA games have steadily dropped every year (except the last three years where they have proactively tried to get it back to where it was 20 years ago). Individually you have teams that depend more on one player so much so that you do have more guys scoring in the upper 20s. But you also have to factor in that these guys are also better athletes than the athletes in the past. They are faster, stronger, bigger than athletes 20 years ago.</font> Plus it came against arguably the worst defence in the league on their worst defensive night of the season AND the refs were calling every single touch foul out there and a few that werent. <font color="red">They were numerous times Kobe was fouled and the refs did not call it. After while the only way to stop him was to foul him.</font> It didnt matter if Toronto doubled or tripled Kobe. Why? Because none of them were able to get within a 5 feet of him without being charged with a foul. <font color="red">You are a hater. Clearly.</font> Kobe's great. Dont compare him with the Bird's, Magic's or Jordans for a few reasons 1) he hasnt lead his team to the playoffs yet..let alone a ring...LET ALONE many rings. mang he hasnt lead his team to a +500 season yet even! <font color="red">He hasn't lead his team to a ring by HIMSELF you mean? Because I guarantee you that without Kobe LA gets none of those rings. That HAS to count for something. He has only had two seasons to get to the playoffs by himself. The first season the Lakers, including Kobe, were so injury plagued it made it virtually impossible. This second season he just might do that. He is already carrying a second rate Lakers team farther than most people thought was possible.</font> 2) its a different time. different defenses, different rules. <font color="red">I agree with you here. Its hard to compare. But still 81 is 81 and what Kobe has been doing this season is nothing short of incredible.</font> Give him time. Maybe eventually he'll be top 30...but for now i dont think he belongs on the list. Only current players that belong on that list are Shaq and Duncan</div> Maybe he doesn't belong in the top 30. Right now I would put him in there as he has some things some of the others don't (rings) and he didn't get them being a role player.
<div class="quote_poster">Quoting Fiyah:</div><div class="quote_post">Does anyone have that book that lists the 50 greatest players using stats? Shaq is #1, then Wilt, then Jordan. Kobe statistically comes in at # 18. Tim Duncan is # 9. </div> I have that book ("Who's better, Who's Best", author Elliot Kalb). I wouldn't say the author used a statistical approach to come up with his rankings. At least not in any disciplined way. It's very much a subjective ranking, influenced by career numbers and achievements like MVPs and All-NBA teams. For another list based on similar criteria but derived through a formula, check out B-R's leaders for Hall-of-Fame probability here Kalb's argument for calling Shaq the greatest was that there was never a player who was so much better than the next best player as Shaq was compared to Duncan in the early 00s. An interesting argument, and it's compelling enough for me to put Shaq in my top 5. Number 1 is a stretch, though.
<div class="quote_poster">Quoting Fiyah:</div><div class="quote_post">Does anyone have that book that lists the 50 greatest players using stats? Shaq is #1, then Wilt, then Jordan. Kobe statistically comes in at # 18. Tim Duncan is # 9.</div> What number is A.I on the list? Cause his stats are better than Kobes.
<div class="quote_poster">Quoting durvasa:</div><div class="quote_post">I have that book ("Who's better, Who's Best", author Elliot Kalb). I wouldn't say the author used a statistical approach to come up with his rankings. At least not in any disciplined way. It's very much a subjective ranking, influenced by career numbers and achievements like MVPs and All-NBA teams. For another list based on similar criteria but derived through a formula, check out B-R's leaders for Hall-of-Fame probability here Kalb's argument for calling Shaq the greatest was that there was never a player who was so much better than the next best player as Shaq was compared to Duncan in the early 00s. An interesting argument, and it's compelling enough for me to put Shaq in my top 5. Number 1 is a stretch, though.</div> Thanks. Cool. And even in the link you game me Kobe ranks in the top 30 still with still many years of basketball left.
<div class="quote_poster">Quoting NTC187:</div><div class="quote_post">What number is A.I on the list? Cause his stats are better than Kobes.</div> Dunno. You would have to ask durvasa. But as he said... it wasn't purely stats.. it was subjective and used stats and awards to back it up.
<div class="quote_poster">Quoting Fiyah:</div><div class="quote_post">Maybe he doesn't belong in the top 30. Right now I would put him in there as he has some things some of the others don't (rings) and he didn't get them being a role player.</div> I'm forced to question how in the **** you believe its harder to score 81 now than it was back in magic bird and jordan's era? I dont care how the league scoring was down at the end of the 90's and even the beginning of 2000! Fact is the rules that have been put inplace have increased total scoring by leaps and bounds over the past 2 seasons. They put the rules in to make the game higher scoring and more exciting. The rules have made the lives of guards and forwards so much easier its not even close to being debatable. Look at the top shooting %'s in the league and count the number of gaurds, now compare that to 5 years, 10 years, 20 years ago. On top of it being easier to score 81 now and days becuase of the rules DESIGNED for that purpose, the NBA is also experiencing a drought of quality shot blocking big men. This only makes it easier for the gaurds and forwards of today. I cant think of 2 times in the T.O game that Kobe was clearly fouled and didnt get the call...i can think of only 1, which was a make up no-call in my opinion. I understand you're a Kobe fan, but watch the game tape.....there are so many ghost calls its actually funny. Now Kobe's a great player, i've never said he wasnt, i'm merely saying the Raptor 81 point thing was made into a big deal when it clearly wasnt. The worst defensive team in the league, on their worst defensive night of the season AND kobe had what...27 foul shots? On the topic of calling me a Kobe hater....can someone not disagree with the appraisel of Kobe's 81 point night being evidence of his "greatness". You dont know me...you cant call me a hater, no more than i can tell you to get off his jock. Your next line i shouldnt even bother replying to. Saying the Lakers wouldnt of gotten the rings without Kobe....probabaly true if in his place they had only a scrub. Put another all-star or near all-star gaurd in his place though and i think they could of won them just as they did with Kobe. Now try switching Shaq out with an all-star/near all-star center and think about if history would repeat itself in that situation. Regardless this is just talk cause we cant prove anything. Kobe had a part of that team winning the championships, but Shaq lead that team, it was his team. You cant call Bryant the greatest or one of the greatest with him never even leading a team to the playoffs...you just cant do it. Give him time and we'll see if he can live up to the lofty expectations of his biggest fans.
<div class="quote_poster">Quoting LKRQUN33:</div><div class="quote_post">You really think shaq is better than Kobe... Shaq couldn't have done anything that he did without Kobe...never. And even with Wade at the moment he isn't going to achieve the greatness he got with Kobe, why? Because Kobe and Shaq were the team...Kobe's speed, the way he can get all the shots he want up which ends up attracting the "D" this allows the dominant big man to do his thing...but you are honestly telling me in a one to one game Kobe wont eat shaq alive..I think he would.</div> wait wait wait. So Shaq getting to within an inch of the finals on a team with a 2nd year player in Wade and next to NO ONE else, loosing just barely, even with serious injury to Shaq and Wade, to the team that took the eventual champs to the brink of defeat. Thats not enough for you? Oh ya and all this while he's several years older than he was with Kobe, and Wade had several years less experience than Kobe did. And 2nd thing..let me understand something you said.. Kobe made Shaq's life easier, Kobe was the one that made Shaq do what he did. Sorry man but you got it backwards..throughout his career Shaq has made everyone else's life easier...he takes sooooooo much pressure off EVERYONE else that mediocre players shine. hahahaha...we're talking about quality of a player here and you're suggesting the outcome of a one on one is admissable as evidence??? As stupid as it is to even bother talking about that Shaq would destroy Kobe. Oh sure kobe would drive around him at ease...thats why shaq would let him shoot everything he wants from 10 feet out. Sure Kobe would hit a very high %, but the one's he misses Shaq is 99% sure to get the rebound. And how's Kobe gunna stop Shaq from just backing him down and dunking on him 100% of the time..no misses. Puh-lease I know you're a big kobe fan..nothing wrong with that. But its crazy to say he's better than a Shaq or a Malone in terms of what they've done for their teams, the players around them and the individual goals they've accomplished. Frankly other than the rings i dont see how you can clearly say Kobe is more valuable than KG. And the rings arent all KG's fault becuase he's never had a Shaq to play with. I have to make an aditional comment to you man. I read an earlier post about how you feel Shaq is no better than Kobe cause Shaq hasnt won a ring without Kobe. But you DO know that Shaq took the Magic to the finals right...and this is at the very start of his career! You also know that he took a depleted Heat roster to the brink of the finals..barely loosing the team that came an inch from winning it AND is the current best team in the league.
<div class="quote_poster">Quoting Diesel:</div><div class="quote_post">I 1. Losing Derek Fisher, Karl Malone, and Horace Grant were the reason for the about 20 game decreas in wins. ^No way. Since they are the only ones who walked out on the Lakers they are the only ones listed. The others were traded. 2. Shaqs departure This is bound to get some nasty replies.</div> The team was buitl around Shaq no doubt..but that level of drop off from the last Shaq season to the first Kobe season...huge. The shaq trade didnt work out..but i would say its partly becuase Kobe didnt work well with the other players. The prevous year Odom had great numbers and led a team to the playoffs. This season look at Caron's numbers in a Kobe free environment. Brian Grant was salary cap filler. Basically the Lakers got two young 16-19ppg 5-9 rpg forwards that shot 45% from the feild and were above average in every other way for an aging Shaq. Not great since Shaq is the MDE, but you'd think if Kobe could of done SOMETHING with it. But he didnt and i think thats alot of peoples reason for giving Kobe a hard time..because he wanted to be the man, had some talent with which to prove people wrong and yet the lakers absolutely bombed
People say alot... what has Kobe won without SHaq!? But the question is what has Shaq accomplished without Kobe?
<div class="quote_poster">Quoting xclutchx:</div><div class="quote_post">People say alot... what has Kobe won without SHaq!? But the question is what has Shaq accomplished without Kobe?</div> He's been to the playoffs, made it to the NBA finals, and in his first year with Miami, they lost in game 7 of the ECF. He also made a star out of Penny Hardaway. This year, if Miami stays healthy, I really think they have a chance to beat Detroit.
<div class="quote_poster">Quoting 02civic:</div><div class="quote_post">I'm forced to question how in the **** you believe its harder to score 81 now than it was back in magic bird and jordan's era? <font color="red">I did not say that its easier to score 81 in the Jordan era or the Bird era for that matter. I said that 10-20 years ago the scoring was up higher than today's scoring. You admit to that. So how can it be easier to score 81 in today's era vs. 20 years ago? And to make matter worse... you also go on to compare an 81 in this era to a 50 pointer in Jordan's era. Utter rubbish!! 81 is 81... getting up over 40 shots in one game and making more that 50% of them is incredibly difficult no matter what era. An 81 point game is bigger than a 51 point game no matter how you look at it.</font> I dont care how the league scoring was down at the end of the 90's and even the beginning of 2000! Fact is the rules that have been put inplace have increased total scoring by leaps and bounds over the past 2 seasons. <font color="red">By leaps and bounds?! You mean scoring is up over the last two seasons when compared to the previous 8 sure (and its certainly not be a 'leaps and bounds' margin). When compared to 20 years ago? Nope. Scoring still down.</font> They put the rules in to make the game higher scoring and more exciting. The rules have made the lives of guards and forwards so much easier its not even close to being debatable. Look at the top shooting %'s in the league and count the number of gaurds, now compare that to 5 years, 10 years, 20 years ago. <font color="red">The shooting %s of guards 10 and 20 years ago are higher than the guards of today. Check your stats. Jordan and Stockton and company routinely shot in the 50% range. Now guards are considered as good shooting guards when they shoot 45% for the season. 50% today is phenomenal for a guard and very few of them are doing it... and none of the elite (those with high shot volumes) are doing it. Care to explain that?</font> On top of it being easier to score 81 now and days becuase of the rules DESIGNED for that purpose, the NBA is also experiencing a drought of quality shot blocking big men. This only makes it easier for the gaurds and forwards of today. <font color="red">What?! The big men of today are bigger, stronger and more mobile than they ever have been. Sure most of them don't play like tradititional big men offensively... but defensively they do as good a job of blocking the lanes and deflecting shots as they ever have. Find me an era with a Tim Duncan, Kevin Garnett, Chris Bosh, Yao Ming, Ben Wallace, Jermaine O'Neal. Please.</font> I cant think of 2 times in the T.O game that Kobe was clearly fouled and didnt get the call...i can think of only 1, which was a make up no-call in my opinion. I understand you're a Kobe fan, but watch the game tape.....there are so many ghost calls its actually funny. Now Kobe's a great player, i've never said he wasnt, i'm merely saying the Raptor 81 point thing was made into a big deal when it clearly wasnt. The worst defensive team in the league, on their worst defensive night of the season AND kobe had what...27 foul shots? <font color="red">And I suppose you being a Raptors fan does not make you biased in the least in this particular situation huh?</font> <font color="red">81 points, even by his detractors is being called a big deal. I am assuming you play the game of basketball. In which case, you would understand that the only people who truly know how difficult what Kobe did was are the other players right? Have you read the responses from the other players to that 81 point performance? Most of them don't think they could ever do it... most of them are in sheer awe of what he did. Yet here you are (a non-NBA player) saying its not a big deal. Sheesh. Spare me the melodrama.</font> On the topic of calling me a Kobe hater....can someone not disagree with the appraisel of Kobe's 81 point night being evidence of his "greatness". You dont know me...you cant call me a hater, no more than i can tell you to get off his jock. <font color="red">Well... I have no other definition for the minority of people that inexplicably call the single greatest individual effort in basketball in the last 20 years "no big deal". Every analyst... every commentator... coach... players... GMs... owners... even Phil Jackson... said they had never seen anything like it. But you say "no big deal". If thats not hating I am not sure what it.</font> Your next line i shouldnt even bother replying to. Saying the Lakers wouldnt of gotten the rings without Kobe....probabaly true if in his place they had only a scrub. Put another all-star or near all-star gaurd in his place though and i think they could of won them just as they did with Kobe. Now try switching Shaq out with an all-star/near all-star center and think about if history would repeat itself in that situation. Regardless this is just talk cause we cant prove anything. Kobe had a part of that team winning the championships, but Shaq lead that team, it was his team. You cant call Bryant the greatest or one of the greatest with him never even leading a team to the playoffs...you just cant do it. Give him time and we'll see if he can live up to the lofty expectations of his biggest fans.</div> Incorrect again. What we can prove is that Kobe + Shaq = rings. Thats clearly obvious. We happen to have proof that Shaq + All-Star guard does not necessarily mean a ring. How has that been proven. Well Penny Hardaway proved it. And now Dwayne Wade may also very well prove it as well (Wade I will give a lot of room since Shaq is clearly not as dominant as he used to be). Penny was the Jordan heir when he was paired with Shaq and Orlando has no rings. So now we know that you can't pair Shaq with ANY All-Star or even the very best guard in the league at the time. We know Kobe works. We don't know that anyone else does and that may be all we can prove ever. Until you have proof that another all-star guard could do what Kobe did then you really have no leg to stand on since my end of the argument is inexorably held aloft by three championship rings.
