<div class="quote_poster">Quote:</div><div class="quote_post">I really feel If Kobe were better than Jordan, we would know. He would have in 10 years, amassed a collection of awards and statistics that we have never seen //- after playing in a league without many of the truly great players Jordan had to compete for his individual awards with. </div>No one is saying Kobe is better than Jordan, lol i sure as hell am not, but why bring up the accomplishments and awards if that's not what i'm trying to say? I guess the only way to TRULY judge them based on their skill, athleticism and talent is to watch them both play an equal amount of games. I've watched Jordan play since I was 4 and watched many tapes of him in his first 3 seasons(my whole family are Jordan freaks) and although i've only watched Kobe for about 5-6 years, i pretty much feel he IS faster and quicker than Jordan. What do you mean Kobe doesn't blow by his defender? I don't understand? Take the Miami game for example where both Wade(whom i also feel is quicker and faster than Jordan EVER was) and Kobe were basically matching each other step for step. But, i guess we will have to agree to disagree as it really is hard to compare. However, i'm pretty confident, Kobe can jump higher than Jordan. If i remember correctly, Kobe's vertical leap was listed at 40-42 inches during his rookie season and actually improved a bit from there on out. Jordan's was listed at around 38 in his younger and thinner days. But it really is irrelevant as both have out-of-this-world hangtime. Kobe is also a better shooter( THAT i am sure not even you would argue about this) and ball-handler (his hands are bigger with a longer wingspan so that's obviously not fair..).
<div class="quote_poster">Quote:</div><div class="quote_post"> i mentioned ai having the third highest ppg ever, maybe higher than jordan in the future, but you ignored it and kept saying that this nba is weak. Prove it, i am not convinced</div> <u>Career scoring</u> Iverson 10 seasons: 19,115 pts 28.0ppg 42.1% Scoring titles <font color=""DarkOrange""><u>4</u></font> <font color=""Red"">Jordan </font> (Bulls) - ommiting two 18 game seasons 11 seasons: 28,412 pts 31.7ppg 51.0% Scoring titles <u><font color=""DarkOrange"">10</font></u> Now you saying Iverson's better than <font color=""Red"">Jordan</font>? Or you saying he's better than Kobe? What are you saying? <font color=""Red"">Jordan</font> would've beaten out Iverson for the scoring title and the All Nba 10 out of 10 seasons they played. While Kobe beat him once. Check the percentages too <div class="quote_poster">Quote:</div><div class="quote_post">I guess the only way to TRULY judge them based on their skill, athleticism and talent is to watch them both play an equal amount of games</div> I hear what you're saying. And Im saying if he was better--; and it aint like Kobe's a rookie or somethin or that he just started playing/ he just finished his 10th season-- and I gave you <font color=""Red"">Jordan's </font>stats after 11 seasons.-- but if Kobe was better, having already played 10 seasons, you would see him separate himself from Jordan and consequentially the rest of the leauge as the best player of all time. But he's done nothing close to this. So I'm still finding it difficult as to how people can argue for Kobe just referencing what they've seen, and what they think.. with no actual tangible evidence -- I mean unless yall got some. I aint seen Kobe dunk with the elevation of <font color=""Red"">Jordan</font>, or block shots from the height that Jordan did -- or hang in the air as long as<font color=""Red""> Jordan</font>: freethrow would be a good example. I'll try to find an old pic from I think the 88' season of Jordan 1 hand pinning a dude off the top of the top box. >>> I could see possibly Garnett doing that, maybe Carter if they planned it to show off his hops but Kobe wouldnt be close to having that kind of quickness and defensive alertness combined with the hops to reach that. And Kobe has better range-- not a better shot ~at all. You gotta give somehwere man; Kobe fans are saying he's <u>faster - got better dribbles- more athletic- a better shooter -- jumps higher</u> >>> and yet he still cant match Jordan's stats?? In anything?!! Why not then? Unless you also say that every other superstar in the game is better than Jordan too -- well unless Kobe just aint trying. Prince, you say also that Dirk is <u>better than </u>Larry? That Nash or Kidd is better than Magic? That Shaq Ben and Ilgauskas are <u>better than </u>Dream Ewing Rob Mourning ? That Artest and J O are <u>better than </u>Nique' Charles PiP Hill and Karl ? Hell Jordan even played against a better Shaq. The players out right now that I feel compare are <font color=""SandyBrown"">Garnett AI Wade LBJ Duncan Mac </font>....... uhh Arenas for the last 2 years and Pierce. And yes Jordan Magic Karl Dream young Shaq damn sure Bird and whoever else would dominate the league today and win everything ----- and you telling me the <font color=""Purple"">"best player ever" </font> cant?
that is not what i said. i simply said that iverson is one of the greatest scorers ever, playing in this weak era that you still havent adressed why is so weak. i gave you some examples on why i believe that these eras are very competative. will you please give me some stats if you are going to use that as an argument. please stop trying to twist what i say. I really dont feel that kobe is better than jordan in any way. not a one. but he is very close in everything. Jordan was a beast. kobe is just great. but you cant honestly tell me watching kobe score 81 didnt give you chills. he simply dominated. and when he won that game against phoenix (that circus layup and fadeaway jumper) didnt make you think that nobody else could have done that. and yes i feel dirk is better than bird. we can debate this somewhere else, but i do not like bird at all. Ewing was an amazing college player and great nba player, and where did i say ilgauskus and big ben are better than him or even comparable? i wasnt talking top to bottom, especially in terms of the center position. i was referring to more of the guards. and magic obviously one of the best. lbj is similar and big o smoked em all. not this era but a different one. Kidd may be a top 3 pg all time, may be. I never said j o was any good at all either. i really dont like him. but kg imo is better than any pf in that or any era, duncan can be put up there too. and shaq is in consideration as the best ever center not named wilt. as far as sf the 80's win hands down, my only artest point was that he could guard and shut down any player in any era with his incredible gifts. at the sg or wings, this era wins. You have VC, Kobe, Tmac, Peirce, AI, Wade, and maybe some more to come are better than dantley, nique, mj and clyde as a whole imo. VC beats and cancells out nique imo. kobe and tmac take down jordan, wade and ai finish off dantly, and peirce loses to clyde but not by that much. Pg's are another discussion. Magic of course is amazing, kj, stocton, gp, and isiah are all amazing. but kidd, nash, cassell, even penny (very similar to kj imo), and arenas are all very close to these guys. i will give you the edge, but it is not overwhelming. kidd is a top 5 for sure. Big O, Magic, Stockton, Kidd, and tiny or walt, isiah whatever. i could also very easilly argue with you that dr. j is close if not better than jordan using your era argument. kareem, wilt, moses, gervin, worthy, thompson, pistol, the list never ends. all era's have their great players, and until this one is all said and done, we wont know.
Iverson scored 28ppg his career shooting 42% -- I'm saying that that is not <u>great </u>compared to a Jordan, Dantley, Malone,Shaq, Bird, Nique' who all shot over 50% for similar averages. Therefore Iverson is a <u>great</u> scorer now-- but would be only a good scorer compared with those guys // hence, the competetion is weaker now then then.
<div class="quote_poster">Quoting AIRTIGHT:</div><div class="quote_post">Iverson scored 28ppg his career shooting 42% -- I'm saying that that is not <u>great </u>compared to a Jordan, Dantley, Malone,Shaq, Bird, Nique' who all shot over 50% for similar averages. Therefore Iverson is a great scorer now-- but would not be only a good scorer compared with those guys // hence, the competetion is weaker now then then.</div> keep goin man, that is one player. i gave you like 20 and who to compare them to. KG and Duncan? Shaq? Kidd? The shooting guards/wings as a whole? sf's?
<div class="quote_poster">Quote:</div><div class="quote_post">And Kobe has better range-- not a better shot ~at all. You gotta give somehwere man; Kobe fans are saying he's faster - got better dribbles- more athletic- a better shooter -- jumps higher >>> and yet he still cant match Jordan's stats?? In anything?!! Why not then? Unless you also say that every other superstar in the game is better than Jordan too -- well unless Kobe just aint trying. </div> Well, i guess the shot is debateable because Kobe is a better 3 point shooter and free throw shooter, but Michael's got the deadliest midrange game on lock.
<div class="quote_poster">Quote:</div><div class="quote_post">I really dont feel that kobe is better than jordan in any way. not a one. >>>.. and yes i feel dirk is better than bird. we can debate this somewhere else, but i do not like bird at all. kobe and tmac take down jordan</div> <div class="quote_poster">Quote:</div><div class="quote_post">this era wins. You have VC, Kobe, Tmac, Peirce, AI, Wade, and maybe some more to come are better than dantley, nique, mj and clyde as a whole imo. VC beats and cancells out nique imo. kobe and tmac take down jordan, wade and ai finish off dantly, and peirce loses to clyde but not by that much. </div> Fresh, I aint gonna go thru the whole history of basketball to prove my point; I dont have to. I'll give 2 more examples Dirk vs Bird 7 year prime Nowitzki 99-00' 17.5 ppg 46.1% 6.5 rpg 2.5 apg .77 stl .83 blk 00-01' 21.8 ppg 47.4% 9.2 rpg 2.1 apg .96 stl 1.23 blk 01-02 23.4 ppg 47.7% 9.9 rpg 2.4 apg 1.09 stl 1.01 blk 02-03' 25.1 ppg 46.3% 9.9 rpg 3.0 apg 1.39 stl 1.03 blk 03-04' 21.8 ppg 46.2% 8.7 rpg 2.7 apg 1.19 stl 1.35 blk 04-05' 26.1 ppg 45.9% 9.7 rpg 3.1 apg 1.24 stl 1.53 blk 05-06' 26.6 ppg 48.0% 9.0 rpg 2.8 apg .72 stl 1.02 blk Bird 81-82' 22.9 ppg 50.3% 10.9 rpg 5.8 apg 1.86 stl .86 blk 82-83' 23.6 ppg 50.4% 11.0 rpg 5.8 apg 1.87 stl .90 blk 83-84' 24.2 ppg 49.2% 10.1 rpg 6.6 apg 1.82 stl .87 blk 84-85' 28.7 ppg 52.2% 10.5 rpg 6.6 apg 1.61 stl 1.23 blk 85-86' 25.3 ppg 49.6% 9.8 rpg 6.8 apg 2.02 stl .62 blk 86-87' 28.1 ppg 52.5% 9.2 rpg 7.6 apg 1.82 stl .95 blk 87-88' 29.9 ppg 52.7% 9.3 rpg 6.1 apg 1.64 stl .75 blk Career Ft% Jordan 83.5% 8.18 fta/g Bryant 83.4% 7.34 fta/g And authentiq where you getting this info from about Kobe better than Jordan? NBA.com <font color=""DarkOrange"">---- </font> <div class="quote_poster">Quote:</div><div class="quote_post">I could also very easilly argue with you that <u>dr. j is close if not better than jordan using your era argument</u>. kareem, wilt, moses, gervin, worthy, thompson, pistol, the list never ends. all era's have their great players, and until this one is all said and done, we wont know.</div> Alright, first off I'd disput that this is a new era.- Dr J played in a different league all together in the beginning of his career, but through the large part and towards the end played against the same players <font color=""Red"">Jordan</font> played against early in his own career as their careers overlapped for 3 seasons. Same as Jordan and Kobe played together for the first part of Kobe's career- as<font color=""Red""> Jordan </font>was still dominating the league. <font color=""Red"">Jordan</font> even came back at a time when Kobe should have been the premier guard in the league; and at age 40 still put up some crazy #'s close to what Kobe was doing so I dont see the validity in your idea here. I'm staying away from comparing guys who played in the 50's and 60's to the 00' because the game has changed so much in what's capable and not capable then and now; and the former comparison is just not relative to today's in any way (possibly except freethrow %). But if you're trying to come on here and say comparing Kobe to <font color=""Red"">Jordan</font> is similar to comparing the 60's to now id have to think you we're joking.
Airtight, is all a matter of opinion. I dont know why you keep this going on and on. There will be people who think Kobe is better than Jordan, and people who think Jordan is better than Kobe. Why argue it? You'll never win. Kobe fans wont win either. <font color="Magenta">**Reopened since Durvasa is a cool guy! Keep it clean boys!</font>
shii.... I'm waiting for yall'. I've given stats, awards, accomplishments, championships, highlight films --- and <u>no opinion</u>. What have yall said otherwise that counterbalances? All I'm reading is opinion, you'r own opinions. <font color=""DarkRed""><u>What is the fact based reasonsing for what the point yall are trying to prove for Kobe against Jordan or whoever else we're talking about?</u></font>
<div class="quote_poster">Quote:</div><div class="quote_post">has Kobe reached, Larry Bird or Magic Johnson status? Do you guys believe he is or perhaps will end up being better? Kobe is a better athlete, can PLAY Defense, and he is clutch... your thoughs please?</div> Well I haven't read any posts in this thread, but all I can say is No.....I think Kobe has the potential to get in the top 10 category, but as of now no. Top 30?...... yes.....Top 20 or 10???.... No. <div class="quote_poster">Quote:</div><div class="quote_post"> think you have to put Scottie Pippen ahead of Kobe at the moment. He's accomplished more, posted solid numbers, and was a far better defender than Kobe is. </div> uuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuhhhh........no.......Scottie Pippen was great, but I tend to think some people overrate him......Scottie isn't in the same stratosphere as Kobe. <div class="quote_poster">Quote:</div><div class="quote_post">The guy was the best player of the 90s other than MJ</div> Are we forgetting a guy named Hakeem Olajuwon......Great 90's players go like this for me....Jordan > Hakeem > Malone......Hakeem was a far superior defender and when he was in his prime the Rockets beat the Jazz twice in the postseason.....and he has the rings. To get back to Kobe, I'll put him over Garnett (who is overrated imo), D Rob (who had a tendency to be soft come postseaon), and Stockton (who was awesome, but not on the level of Kobe imo)......Kobe still hasn't reached the level of Duncan, Barkley, Malone, and Drexler imo.....and he certainly isn't in the league of MJ, Magic, Bird, Hakeem, etc. yet.
<div class="quote_poster">Quote:</div><div class="quote_post">Career Ft% Jordan 83.5% 8.18 fta/g Bryant 83.4% 7.34 fta/g And authentiq where you getting this info from about Kobe better than Jordan?</div> sometimes, stats don't say tell the whole story, soemtimes, you need to think subjectively, rather analytically. I am, however surprised at Jordan's free throw %, but it really is tough to say who was the better free throw shooter, especially if the difference is 1-tenth of a percentile. Anyways, i don't understand why we're both debating about who was more athletic, skilled and versatile. It's obvious none of us can agree on the latter and it really is quite impossible to prove opur points on this subject. But that's not the point, if the question was "who is better", then both of us can easily agree it was Michael, Kobe ain't even close. But in terms of natural talent, it's a close call. However, just for fun, here are the following players I believe to be more athletic than Jordan: Iverson, Bryant, Carter, McGrady, & James off the top of my head. BUT IT DOES NOT MEAN THEY'RE BETTER.
I'll definitely say Kobe Tmac, Vince and maybe even Lebron are more athletic than Jordan....I'm not saying they're better (cause they're not), but on pure athletic skill you can make an argument....with Kobe and Tmac you have 2 guys who have far better range than Jordan and can rise up and hit a 3 in their defenders face without blinking.....and when it comes to dunking I'm sorry but MJ isn't the best dunker in NBA history (especially in game dunks), I've seen Kobe, Vince, and Tmac come with better in game dunks....and how quick we are to forget Mr. Wilkins and Mr. Drexler when it comes to leaping ability. (Clyde dunked on an 11 ft rim one time)
<div class="quote_poster">Quoting authentiq:</div><div class="quote_post"> However, just for fun, here are the following players I believe to be more athletic than Jordan: Iverson, Bryant, Carter, McGrady, & James off the top of my head. BUT IT DOES NOT MEAN THEY'RE BETTER.</div> I know its your opinion but how can actually say guys like iverson especially, and mcgrady are more athletic than jordan? what are you basing that on?Magic said MJ was the strongest guard he ever played against not to mention MJ had something no player i've ever seen in nba history had as good as him, his hangtime. Not just his dunks i'm talking about his levitation. like that move he pulled in the finals in '91 when he switched hands in mid-air it seems like he was in the air forever no player has come close to jordans hangtime.
I think that move against the Lakers is overrated.....I've seen far more impressive plays from Jordan in his career when it comes to hang time......and I bet you there are a lot of players playing today who could do that same thing.......I wouldn't say A.I. is more athletic than Jordan, but I think you can make an argument for Tmac (and the others I listed) who can do some pretty amazing things also.
<div class="quote_poster">Quoting THE DREAM:</div><div class="quote_post">I think that move against the Lakers is overrated.....I've seen far more impressive plays from Jordan in his career when it comes to hang time......and I bet you there are a lot of players playing today who could do that same thing.......I wouldn't say A.I. is more athletic than Jordan, but I think you can make an argument for Tmac (and the others I listed) who can do some pretty amazing things also.</div> T-mac is injured way to often, he's only 26 and there's already rumours about him having retire soon. The only player i can think of who you can actually argue is more atletic than jordan was is probably lebron james only beacuse i think he's the most physically gifted player since wilt.
AIRTIGHT, stats arent everything. i feel that dirk will be better than larry bird in the future, not baseed on statistice becuase larry put up great stats because of the team he was on, but dirk is really emerging as a force. he is alreadya abetter shooter than larry, and is getting there in rebounding and defense. and also, dr. j's era was better. he played with kareem and wilt in their primes, as well as many others that i mentioned earlier. again i feel that jordan is better than kobe, not by a lot, but obviously better. i just dont see how eras should affect things. The Dream, KG is very underrated. a seven footer that can do EVERYTHING on the court including playing all 5 positions (which he HAS done) is simply out of this world amazing. no one can ever claim to do this, not even Lebron.
KG can't do everything on the court, his post up game is still shaky at times......he's not a hard nosed banging type of PF like Malone, Duncan, Barkley, etc......and yes Tmac is banged up, but when healthy dude is an athletic freak.
<div class="quote_poster">Quote:</div><div class="quote_post">I think that move against the Lakers is overrated.....I've seen far more impressive plays from Jordan in his career when it comes to hang time</div> co-sign. Jordan's athleticism is way overrated. He wasn't the most athletic, in fact you can def. argue a handful of guys more athletic than Jordan. Jordan had the greatest mental game, and that, not athleticism is what made him the greatest. <div class="quote_poster">Quote:</div><div class="quote_post">I know its your opinion but how can actually say guys like iverson especially, and mcgrady are more athletic than jordan? what are you basing that on?Magic said MJ was the strongest guard he ever played against not to mention MJ had something no player i've ever seen in nba history had as good as him, his hangtime. Not just his dunks i'm talking about his levitation</div>. Carter jumped higher, was far stronger and had a more explosive first step than Jordan. like i said earlier, Jordan's athleticism is overrated, still mind-boggling nonetheless. Tracy McGrady may be injured a lot, but when healthy, the guy is faster than guys 6'3' and jumps out of the building along with his <u>massive</u> wingspan. Iverson has the greatest combination of speed/quickness when he was younger to go along with his 40"+ vertical. Jumping high or hangtime is not the only thing that factors my decision for who is more athletic. Lebron, Kobe and Vince I really have no need to explain. <div class="quote_poster">Quote:</div><div class="quote_post">The Dream, KG is very underrated. a seven footer that can do EVERYTHING on the court including playing all 5 positions (which he HAS done) is simply out of this world amazing. no one can ever claim to do this, not even Lebron.</div>I'm sure Boris Diaw has done this, along with Magic and if Lebron had the chance he could too. But Brasco, I too believe Lebron is argueably one of best physical specimens to come to the NBA with his 240 lbs./ 6'8' frame and speed/first step (he's not as quick as guys like Kobe or Wade but W/E..) But IMO, the one person who i truly believe to be the most athletic/ physically gifted is Vince Carter (reasons above).
<div class="quote_poster">Quoting authentiq:</div><div class="quote_post">co-sign. Jordan's athleticism is way overrated. He wasn't the most athletic, in fact you can def. argue a handful of guys more athletic than Jordan. Jordan had the greatest mental game, and that, not athleticism is what made him the greatest. . Carter jumped higher, was far stronger and had a more explosive first step than Jordan. like i said earlier, Jordan's athleticism is overrated, still mind-boggling nonetheless. Tracy McGrady may be injured a lot, but when healthy, the guy is faster than guys 6'3' and jumps out of the building along with his <u>massive</u> wingspan. Iverson has the greatest combination of speed/quickness when he was younger to go along with his 40"+ vertical. Jumping high or hangtime is not the only thing that factors my decision for who is more athletic. Lebron, Kobe and Vince I really have no need to explain. I'm sure Boris Diaw has done this, along with Magic and if Lebron had the chance he could too. But Brasco, I too believe Lebron is argueably one of best physical specimens to come to the NBA with his 240 lbs./ 6'8' frame and speed/first step (he's not as quick as guys like Kobe or Wade but W/E..) But IMO, the one person who i truly believe to be the most athletic/ physically gifted is Vince Carter (reasons above).</div> Vince carter stronger, lol. come on a breeze can knock this guy over and it has. MJ was very strong, he was alot stronger than he looked. AI hasn't had a 40 inch vert since his rookie year, jordan's was 42 inches anyways. Kobe bryant is debatable as of now the only people who really support that claim tend to be laker fans.
