<div class="quote_poster">Quoting virve119:</div><div class="quote_post">He used to be. That is until DWade found his game. Wade plays so much more like Jordan than Kobe it's amazing. The only person that need to "get over it" is you. Kobe had his turn, now Wade and Lebron are the "heir apparents" so to speak.</div> Even Lebron said Kobe is the best...but i guess u put "hype" over substance. Fine, agree to disagree
<div class="quote_poster">Quoting virve119:</div><div class="quote_post">^Yah about 5 months ago before, like I said, DWade found his game.</div> He also found GP, Antione Walker, James Posey, & JWill open for 3's. Isn't it nice to have players that can actually make shots.
<div class="quote_poster">Quoting Rock4life:</div><div class="quote_post">Even Lebron said Kobe is the best...but i guess u put "hype" over substance. Fine, agree to disagree</div> That's how DeAngelo Hall made the Pro Bowl this year. Oops. Wrong sport. But my point is still made.
<div class="quote_poster">Quote:</div><div class="quote_post">He also found GP, Antione Walker, James Posey, & JWill open for 3's. Isn't it nice to have players that can actually make shots</div> Miami isn't even that good of 3 point shooting team....Jwill is streaky as is Toine....GP can't shoot the 3 (he never really was that much of an outside threat)....Posey is their best and most consistent shooter from long range......if you want to take away from DWade because of his supporting cast, then I guess we can take away Kobe's 3 rings.
<div class="quote_poster">Quoting THE DREAM:</div><div class="quote_post">Miami isn't even that good of 3 point shooting team....Jwill is streaky as is Toine....GP can't shoot the 3 (he never really was that much of an outside threat)....Posey is their best and most consistent shooter from long range......if you want to take away from DWade because of his supporting cast, then I guess we can take away Kobe's 3 rings.</div> Why? The difference is Miami leaned more on their supporting cast than any of those Lakers teams. Without GP, Mourning, Posey, Walker, or JWill Miami wouldn't have won a ring. The Lakers didn't have to depend on that much talent during they're run. They actually interchanged players (Glen Rice, Ron Harper, Horace Grant) and still were every bit as dominant. Miami depends alot more on their supporting cast. Wade has it alot easier than Kobe did
Kobe had a DOMINANT Shaq that in itself is a huge improvement over what Wade has........and Horry, Shaw, Fisher, and Fox were all very important in those Laker title runs....Wade had it much harder because if he has a bad game Miami ain't winning....Kobe could have a 15 point night but the Lakers would still be able to win.
<div class="quote_poster">Quoting Rock4life:</div><div class="quote_post">Why? The difference is Miami leaned more on their supporting cast than any of those Lakers teams. Without GP, Mourning, Posey, Walker, or JWill Miami wouldn't have won a ring. The Lakers didn't have to depend on that much talent during they're run. They actually interchanged players (Glen Rice, Ron Harper, Horace Grant) and still were every bit as dominant. Miami depends alot more on their supporting cast. Wade has it alot easier than Kobe did</div> <font size=""1"">Game Score = (Points x 1.0) + (FGM x 0.4) + (FGA x -0.7) + ((FTA-FTM) x -0.4) + (OREB x 0.7) + (DREB x 0.3) + (STL x 1.0) + (AST x 0.7) + (BLK x 0.7) + (PF x -0.4) + (TO x -1.0)</font> Using the above formula, it's straightforward to estimate how responsible a player was to his team's success during the playoffs (his individual "game score" divided by the team's total "game score"): <div class='codetop'>CODE</div><div class='codemain'><br/><font color=""Navy"">KobeShaqRest of Team</font><br/>200018.2%32.6%49.2%<br/>200126.2%28.2%45.6%<br/>200223.6%29.9%46.5%<br/><br/><font color=""Navy"">WadeShaqRest of Team</font><br/>200631.5%17.5%50.9%<br/></div> It's a silly argument to say that Wade leaned more on the supporting cast than Kobe. Kobe didn't have to lean on his supporting cast as much, because he had a dominant Shaquille O'neal on his team.
<div class="quote_poster">Quoting AIRTIGHT:</div><div class="quote_post">^^ Document the Finals' as well if you can.</div> Sure. For the Finals in those years, the results are even more in Wade's favor: <div class='codetop'>CODE</div><div class='codemain'><br/><font color=""Navy"">KobeShaqRest of Team</font><br/>200010.4%38.8%50.7%<br/>200121.0%33.1%45.6%<br/>200222.8%33.8%43.4%<br/><br/><font color=""Navy"">WadeShaqRest of Team</font><br/>200640.0%15.1%44.9%<br/></div> Wade absolutely dominated. I'd wager that the 40% figure would rank amongst the highest in Finals history.
<div class="quote_poster">Quoting THE DREAM:</div><div class="quote_post">Kobe had a DOMINANT Shaq that in itself is a huge improvement over what Wade has........and Horry, Shaw, Fisher, and Fox were all very important in those Laker title runs....Wade had it much harder because if he has a bad game Miami ain't winning....Kobe could have a 15 point night but the Lakers would still be able to win.</div> Stop spinning the facts......Kobe had a dominant Shaq, but the Heat had 4 former allstars and 20pt a game scorers on that team. Wade didn't have it harder. That's spin coming from another Kobe hater. The Lakers had 2 allstars and strictly role players who most nights don't score over 20pts. The Lakers this year SUCKED. They weren't even supposed to make the post season. Kobe lead a team full of majority scrubs and journeymen to the playoffs. Nobody in the league could've lead that team to the playoffs, PERIOD. That's just more validation who the best is
....Why didnt you address durvasa's stats on that post Rock4life? .. I mean it's not like you couldn't see them; they've been there for an hour before you posted, and of course are the last entry right above ^^ yours. How could you miss it.
^^^^^because that's one series against three different years. Let's put things in perspective. <div align="center">KOBE BRYANT</div> 2000-01 playoffs (Lakers run) 29.4pts 7.3rebs 6.1ass 46fg% 32%3pt 1st ring 2001-02 playoffs 26.6pts 4.6 ass 5.8rebs 43%fg 37%3pt 2nd ring 2002-03 playoffs 32.1pts 5.2rebs 5.1ass 43fg% 40%3pt 3rd Ring NOTE* Average 37pts against Miami (Wade guarding him) both times this season <div align="center">DWAYNE WADE</div> (Heat run) 2005-06 playoffs 28.4pts 5.7ass 5.9reb 49fg% 37%3pt 1st ring NOTE* Average 28pts against the Lakers (Kobe guarding him) both times this season Wow. I had to type all that out There you have it, the stats from the championship runs and the averages from each game they played during the regular season. I watched each game, and they guarded each other basically the whole time with Kobe DESTROYING Wade for 37PTS EACH GAME (Wade avg 28). I told you, the proof is in the pudding. They matched up, and each time Kobe ripped the young fella a new one (Lebron too). Game over, IT'S A WRAP. ADVANTAGE KOBE
<div class="quote_poster">Quoting Rock4life:</div><div class="quote_post">^^^^^because that's one series against three different years.</div> No, it's not. I compared Wade's 2006 playoff run to Kobe's in the championship years, relative to their respective team's statistical output. Then, I did the same comparison just looking at what they did in the Finals. What Wade did in the 2006 playoffs (and, in particular, in the Finals) easily surpasses what Kobe did in those championship years. And you have the years wrong. The Lakers won a ring in the 99-00, 00-01, and 01-02 seasons. In 2003, Kobe's best year in the playoffs scoring-wise, the Lakers were eliminated in the second round. Let's just compare Wade the past two years in the playoffs (2005 and 2006) to Kobe in 2000-2003 (again, using the game score rating): <div class='codetop'>CODE</div><div class='codemain'><br/>Kobe<br/><font color=""Navy"">GS/gGS/40TS%GS%</font><br/>200014.615.051.7%10.4%<br/>200122.320.555.5%21.0%<br/>200217.516.051.1%22.8%<br/>200319.918.053.0%26.6% <br/><br/>Wade<br/><font color=""Navy"">GS/gGS/40TS%GS%</font><br/>200520.319.956.1%25.6%<br/>200622.421.559.3%31.5%<br/></div> <font size=""1"">GS/g: game score rating per game (how statistically productive they were, per game) GS/40: game score rating per 40 minutes (how statistically productive they were, per minute played) TS%: scoring efficiency, proportional to points scored per shot attempt (including shots resulting in free throws) GS%: percentage of total team's Game Score points over the entire postseason that the player earned</font>
<div class="quote_poster">Quoting durvasa:</div><div class="quote_post">No, it's not. I compared Wade's 2006 playoff run to Kobe's, relative to their respective team's statistical output. Then, I did the same comparison just looking at what they did in the Finals. What Wade did in the 2006 playoffs (and, in particular, in the Finals) easily surpasses what Kobe did.</div> He torched Wade for 37 each game they played. Now let's see you wiggle ur way outta this one. Nope better yet, I'm gracefully bowing out before you can. ADVANTAGE KOBE AGAIN
<div class="quote_poster">Quoting Rock4life:</div><div class="quote_post">He torched Wade for 37 each game they played. Now let's see you wiggle ur way outta this one. Nope better yet, I'm gracefully bowing out before you can. ADVANTAGE KOBE AGAIN</div> What does this have to do with playoff performance? For your information, this is how the stats break down in their four meetings (in which Miami won 3 games, and the Lakers won 1 game) the last two seasons: <div class='codetop'>CODE</div><div class='codemain'><br/><font color=""Navy"">Gmpgpts/greb/gast/gTS%GS/gGS/40</font><br/>Kobe445.335.56.04.855.0%23.020.3<br/>Wade439.827.04.36.852.2%19.819.8<br/></div> As you say, Kobe has an edge (mostly due to playing 5 more minutes a game). Per minute, they are statistically just about even (GS/40). In 4 games. Games in which Kobe had a much greater incentive to perform well (given all the hype surrounding the Kobe-Shaq feud). Games in which Kobe probably dominated the ball (and, to his credit, he made the most of it) much more than Wade did for the Heat. It's quite clear that no conclusions can be drawn from a mere four games in which neither player was clearly outplayed. But I'm sure all rationality falls on deaf ears with you.
Rock4life: <div class="quote_poster">Quote:</div><div class="quote_post">NOTE* Average 37pts against Miami (Wade guarding him) both times this season</div> <div class="quote_poster">Quote:</div><div class="quote_post">NOTE* Average 28pts against the Lakers (Kobe guarding him) both times this season</div> Your argument spans throughout the two games the two players played against eachother this regular season, whereas durvasa is comparing entire playoffs and Final's for specific seasons... ...But I'm sure all rationality falls on deaf ears with you.
lol, I'm very confused as to what Rock4life is actually trying to argue here. <div class="quote_poster">Quote:</div><div class="quote_post">Stop spinning the facts......Kobe had a dominant Shaq, but the Heat had 4 former allstars and 20pt a game scorers on that team. Wade didn't have it harder. That's spin coming from another Kobe hater. The Lakers had 2 allstars and strictly role players who most nights don't score over 20pts. </div> Why would anyone emphasize having <u>former</u> 20 PPG scores? In 03-04, Kobe had a better Shaq, and 2 former 20 PPG scorers in Payton and Malone, they barely got by San Antonio, and lost to Detroit, even though they lost on of their former 20 PPG scorers, they still had one former one there. In 01-02, the Lakers had a former All-Star and 20 PPG scorer in Mitch Ritchmond. They had another former 20 PPG scorer in Lindsey Hunter. In 00-01 they had a former 20 PPG scorer in Isiah Rider, another in Ron Harper. In 99-00, they had former 20 PPG scorers in Harper, and Glen Rice. This is all not adding in the fact that Shaq was scoring 20 more PPG throughout the playoffs those years than he did in the finals this year, and about 12-14 more PPG than he did throughout the playoffs this year. Again, I fail to see how this former 20 PPG scorer nonsense is significant in any way.
<div class="quote_poster">Quoting AIRTIGHT:</div><div class="quote_post">Rock4life: Your argument spans throughout the two games the two players played against eachother this regular season, whereas durvasa is comparing entire playoffs and Final's for specific seasons... ...But I'm sure all rationality falls on deaf ears with you.</div> I've had an answer to everything he said, whether not you choose to accept that or not is totally on you. I also gave hardcore stats of Wade & Kobe. Wade had a great playoff run, but truth is Kobe had an even better run in 2003 when he averaged 32pts. In addition, Kobe significantly outplayed both Wade & Lebron each time they matched up. Keep in mind, scoring isn't everything. Kobe also held Iverson in the Finals and did the best job on him anybody has (with exception to game 1). <div class="quote_poster">Quoting og15:</div><div class="quote_post">Why would anyone emphasize having <u>former</u> 20 PPG scores? In 03-04, Kobe had a better Shaq, and 2 former 20 PPG scorers in Payton and Malone, they barely got by San Antonio, and lost to Detroit, even though they lost on of their former 20 PPG scorers, they still had one former one there. In 01-02, the Lakers had a former All-Star and 20 PPG scorer in Mitch Ritchmond. They had another former 20 PPG scorer in Lindsey Hunter. In 00-01 they had a former 20 PPG scorer in Isiah Rider, another in Ron Harper. In 99-00, they had former 20 PPG scorers in Harper, and Glen Rice. This is all not adding in the fact that Shaq was scoring 20 more PPG throughout the playoffs those years than he did in the finals this year, and about 12-14 more PPG than he did throughout the playoffs this year.</div> Well keep in mind that Malone was hurt in the finals that year, and Payton wasn't getting significant minutes being in Phil's doghouse. But let's keep this confined to the championship teams. The role players on the Heat played a significant bigger role on that team than the Lakers role players. They were alot BETTER too. Jason Williams< Harper, Fisher, Jannero Pargo, Shaw James Posey< Rick Fox, Devon George Alonzo Mourning< Horace Grant, Medvedenko, John Salley Haslem, Walker< Horace Grant, Mark Madsen, Horry Outside of Horry or Fisher, nobody on the Lakers team was consistent contributor.
Rock the FACT is that if Wade has a bad game Miam loses, with a dominant big man in the paint who's avg. 30 points a night and a better supporting cast, Kobe could afford to have a bad game or two....I'm not saying he had it easy, but he had it easier than Wade. <div class="quote_poster">Quote:</div><div class="quote_post">Kobe also held Iverson in the Finals and did the best job on him anybody has (with exception to game 1).</div> Iverson avg. over 34 points in that series. <div class="quote_poster">Quote:</div><div class="quote_post">but truth is Kobe had an even better run in 2003 when he averaged 32pts.</div> no it's not the truth....just becaused he avg. more points doesn't mean that it was more impressive. <div class="quote_poster">Quote:</div><div class="quote_post">Outside of Horry or Fisher, nobody on the Lakers team was consistent contributor. </div> Yes they did, his name was...........................SHAQ.....I swear it's like you forget that those Laker teams had a MUCH better Shaq than Wade had to work with
