<div class="quote_poster">Quote:</div><div class="quote_post"> Murphy? I walked into the arena with him Mon. night and he's a really great guy. He's not the problem. He's an asset.</div> I think he's not THE problem, but he's definitely A problem. I won't dispute that he's a great guy and that he gives effort, but the offense just fits together better with Diogu on the block. His trade value is decent, and the team is proving that playing without him still can work. Are the Warriors better without him, I don't think I'm arguing that?... Can the Warriors be bettter by letting him go and upgrading another position?... I think so... But then again, I'm just a fan who thinks he understands the game.
<div class="quote_poster">Quoting CohanHater:</div><div class="quote_post">But then again, I'm just a fan who thinks he understands the game.</div> Ha ha, aren't we all? I think a lot of people who actually are in the nba think they understand the game too and they still don't get results, so it's really a gamble on what works 'in theory'. There have been GMs that say what if we do this, or what if we do that, and then it either works or it doesn't. The only real measure is hunches and hindsight because you can't really get a good read about a player if he's only being used a certain way by coaches, given limited opportunities, or if you catch him on a hot streak or a string of bad games. The nba player is perceived only as good as his last game (short term) or his last season(s) (long term). Sometimes individual stats can lie. I do think Kwan brings up some good questions about Murphy. We have been playing exceptional defense without him (and Bdiddy). Maybe we would have gotten a win streak going if we had a little more rebounding, less mental errors, but same skill on defense. Murphy puts up good numbers in points/rebounding and he has some impact moments against all-stars, but does he do it enough to make the team better and play the whole game? Does he take away better shot opportunities inside? See, I think he doesn't hustle enough on D or exhibit enough team skills to make the offense run better most of the time. That's why he says about Monty's offense, "What offense?" (maybe, it's taken out of context) and then you got guys like Dunleavy backing the coach on this whole "one-on-one streetball" stuff and the need to play as a team. Who does the most one-on-one stuff and jack long shots? I'd have to say four players: Bdiddy, Jrich, Dfish and Murphy. Of those three, the only guy that listens to the coach the most, gets assists, and shoots a decent % is Jrich. Murphy is the one player that stands out to me as a guy that settles for the three and reinforces the bad habit of standing around off the ball and trying to do too much jumpers and one-on-one with the ball. Also, I observe Murphy and he appears lazy in getting to the weakside on D, he's slow to box out and rotate on defense, he's too slow to save a layup, and he doesn't set the best picks or screens for a big guy (which we need badly to be a good perimeter team!). Doesn't it seem like we give up a lot of layups and open jumpers when he's in the game? It's like the same play is being run again and again to exploit the inside players. To tell the truth, I'd rather have two shotblockers in the game altering shots at PF and C or at least a shotblocker and one really good help defender. Murphy is neither a good help defender or guy that can alter shots. I think our shooting % and defense tends to get worse more times than not when he's in the lineup. Plus, we need a big body that can create separation for the outside shooters by setting those hard screens. He just wants to take those outside shots himself. He's so soft when he has to do some dirty work outside of rebounding.
One more thing: no I'm not for trading Murphy. He's too much of a unique player. But as a starter and finisher... that makes me nervous. The problem with our 4th quarters is we don't take good shots, we have a hard time making some stops, and we don't exhibit as much hustle or quickness. We do need the rebounding and free throw %, though. Also having a big guy that can get deep position inside really helps the floor spacing and I don't think Murphy is that kind of player for power forward or center going down the stretch. That's just my opinion though. I think we need more traditional bigs and a better center in some cases where Murphy hurts more than he helps. Edit: on second thought... how big is our big man depth this season? Maybe the coaching staff feels that Murphy is the only capable big guy that can do anything right in the 4th quarters. Foyle, Biedrins and others have had their moments where we wish they weren't in the game because of bad hands, decision making or foul trouble. Also, Ike Diogu not playing as much... I'm not about to call him the savior yet because from a fan's point of view I think he's awesome, but it's hard to tell from a coaching staff's point of view what he's all about and if he's ready. Let's just say the way our lineups are in the 4th quarters, I'm suprised the guys inserted into the game have enough energy to even keep the games close... If we had more depth or more dependable rookies to close out games, maybe we don't have to have Bdiddy or Jrich or Murphy play 40 minutes a game and close out the 4th. That's all I'm saying about why we struggle to close out games. It could be fatigue and lack of depth and that's why we can't score that well or defend in the 4th. Just plain fatigue. Plus, you never know about some of the rookies we have, nobody pays us for our opinions and we aren't around them like the coaching staff is. I figure the coaches know better than we do what they have. After all, they've done this before. Most of us haven't. Theoretically, though, I prefer a true center that's not Murphy, a power forward that can score from a variety of places that can actually defend, a Bruce Bowen or Shane Battier type guy, two guards that can score and get everyone involved. But we don't have this yet... for now.
<div class="quote_poster">Quote:</div><div class="quote_post">on second thought... how big is our big man depth this season? Maybe the coaching staff feels that Murphy is the only capable big guy that can do anything right in the 4th quarters. Foyle, Biedrins and others have had their moments where we wish they weren't in the game because of bad hands, decision making or foul trouble. Also, Ike Diogu not playing as much... I'm not about to call him the savior yet because from a fan's point of view I think he's awesome, but it's hard to tell from a coaching staff's point of view what he's all about and if he's ready.</div> a few questions: 1) How many games do you think Murphy was the difference maker for us this year? 2) How do you think the team would be if Diogu and Taft were in his place and we had an upgraded 3 or 5 with Pietrus gobbling up all the backup 2 minutes and Miles/Ellis taking the backup 1 instead of Fish? I think Fisher and Murphy could seriously help some teams get over the hump.. just not this team. Honestly.. I like what they've done, I just don't see them as being a part of this team's future. Beidrins will be starting at the 5 soon enough with Foyle as a nice backup. Two Rookies at the 4 won't cut it, but Mully was considering giving the Dallas 1st and the exception for Wilcox. Man... I think that keeping Davis, Richardson, Pietrus, Dunleavy, Diogu and Beidrins with solid role players that fit is the way to improve this team.... Downgrading talent is not necessarily a bad thing IMO.
What I think is we should give Foyle eight shots a game. I figure he will hit about 2-4 of those shots regularly. So you're saying 2-8 is pretty bad, but I think if you get Foyle involved on offense he'll play harder defense, although that's only theoretical. I know when I'm playing a pickup game. I hate it when no one passes to me. I think that goes along with playing a team game. Cause I understand that Foyle sucks and drops a lot of passes and misses dunks and can't hit free throws and I cringe everytime he takes a 17 foot baseline jumper and always has a high chance of travel when posting up. A lot of the posters have mentioned that they should never pass to Foyle. But the problem with that is that makes it easier for the defense. It ruins chemistry, trust in the team concept. I think this all started at the beginning of the season when both Dunleavy and Foyle were playing terrible and in the case of Foyle still is, I think that made Baron lose trust in his teamates and then they started losing a lot and Baron felt it was his job to take over and will this team to victory. He just needs to gain that trust back with his teamates, like last season. Last season Baron passed a lot more. It could have been because he was hobbled or maybe he had trust in his teammates.
<div class="quote_poster">Quoting CohanHater:</div><div class="quote_post">a few questions: 1) How many games do you think Murphy was the difference maker for us this year? </div> CH, I think quite a few, but I can't remember if we ended up winning or losing because of it. All I know production from the Warriors offense needs to be a cumulative thing where everyone needs to step up. We don't have any 45% shooters that score 80% from the foul line and drop down 30 points for us every night. We don't have a ton of guys that others feed off of. But that's unfair to blame Murphy for being something he isn't. He boards, he scores, he's a good player, but we need more impact outside of just guards and perimeter shooting men. Whether that costs Murphy or Foyle their starting position, we just need the impact guys like Elton Brand or Pau Gasol bring in inside presence, high % points, rebounds, foul shots, blocked shots, steals, etc. Murphy doesn't draw in too many defenders or recognize open shooters in the corner, if you know what I mean. Plus his improved defense will never keep dribble penetrators from trying to attack the lane, especially when they know he's getting out of the way and letting an out of position, slower than ever Foyle take over. <div class="quote_poster">Quoting CohanHater:</div><div class="quote_post"> 2) How do you think the team would be if Diogu and Taft were in his place and we had an upgraded 3 or 5 with Pietrus gobbling up all the backup 2 minutes and Miles/Ellis taking the backup 1 instead of Fish? </div> Too early to tell. But I think the world of Diogu so far. He does things that do not show up on a stat sheet. He fights for inside position even if he knows he's not getting the ball. He never gives up on a play even if it means he's probably going to get dunked on. He contests shots like he wants to block it (and that has more effect than guys that just put up their hands in the shooter's face). He's also court aware and knows when to put the ball up and when to get rid of it. He's still learning the nba, though, but the dude knows basketball, he's got a lot of polish, and he's one tough, aggressive, active mofo. Come to think of it, we've never had such a player of those qualities in a long while. That's why Warriors announcer Jim Barnett has a new fondness for him in terms of his skill and bball I.Q. I see potential for Diogu as a setup guy on the inside or outside since he can run high post plays or low post kickouts. Not sure about Taft because of his red flags prior to the draft and his limited minutes and skill, but I like his presence when he got minutes. He's intimidating, he didn't seem to panic like most rookies do on blocking the shot, he's got good hands and he's very athletic and strong. <div class="quote_poster">Quoting CohanHater:</div><div class="quote_post"> I think Fisher and Murphy could seriously help some teams get over the hump.. just not this team. Honestly.. I like what they've done, I just don't see them as being a part of this team's future. Beidrins will be starting at the 5 soon enough with Foyle as a nice backup. Two Rookies at the 4 won't cut it, but Mully was considering giving the Dallas 1st and the exception for Wilcox. Man... I think that keeping Davis, Richardson, Pietrus, Dunleavy, Diogu and Beidrins with solid role players that fit is the way to improve this team.... Downgrading talent is not necessarily a bad thing IMO.</div> I think Fisher and Murphy could both feed off some inside presence and better ball movement, but we don't have that... which leads to us blaming Foyle for something he isn't and Fisher/Murphy for not being more. It's hard to find a scoring center that can also defend, which is why scoring power forward/defensive center seems like a better option (like Kwan mentioned awhile ago). We need an inside presence that can create more options for the guards to go to, and hopefully a big that other players can feed off of. That's why I like Diogu's ability to score inside, pass and play the high post game well (all without a large ego like A.I. or somebody). Ike's shown he can rebound in double digits, given the minutes, but he'll have to make continued adjustments to compete against bigger guys he's never played before. BTW I don't know why Wilcox was a rumor. It's probably just that. I think Wilcox would not help us out, he plays kind of small, doesn't know the game, and he only plays well against us for some reason... and the Dallas 2007 pick might be something to hold onto just in case. You never know. 2007 might be a big year, we could use it or convince other teams to take on one of our bad contracts. Mullin has a few moves, but he needs to make the right decision for the long term. That's hard to do. Some fans think its easy, but it's probably not. I wonder if Mullin is a business guy because we sure have a lot of overpaid guys on our team. I mean Foyle/Fish you can argue we needed to build from somewhere with little leverage, but the Dunleavy signing seems colossal if he never lives up to his potential. Don't get me wrong, I think he's a great player to have for a role player, but it better not cost us in the long run. That's why I hope we keep the 2007 pick just in case Pietrus walks and we find a gem in the late first round. Also, Indiana has a ton of forwards it seems. Maybe we can get Danny Granger after all in some kind of trade.
<div class="quote_poster">Quoting Gohn:</div><div class="quote_post">What I think is we should give Foyle eight shots a game. I figure he will hit about 2-4 of those shots regularly. So you're saying 2-8 is pretty bad, but I think if you get Foyle involved on offense he'll play harder defense, although that's only theoretical. I know when I'm playing a pickup game. I hate it when no one passes to me. I think that goes along with playing a team game. Cause I understand that Foyle sucks and drops a lot of passes and misses dunks and can't hit free throws and I cringe everytime he takes a 17 foot baseline jumper and always has a high chance of travel when posting up. A lot of the posters have mentioned that they should never pass to Foyle. But the problem with that is that makes it easier for the defense. It ruins chemistry, trust in the team concept. I think this all started at the beginning of the season when both Dunleavy and Foyle were playing terrible and in the case of Foyle still is, I think that made Baron lose trust in his teamates and then they started losing a lot and Baron felt it was his job to take over and will this team to victory. He just needs to gain that trust back with his teamates, like last season. Last season Baron passed a lot more. It could have been because he was hobbled or maybe he had trust in his teammates.</div> Those are good comments, Gohn. I think Foyle inside and Dunleavy missing some shots probably led to a breakdown somewhere between coaches, players, and floor leaders. After all if you look at the scoring opportunities generated from playmakers to our centers, Biedrins and Foyle are playing the same roles on offense. The difference is Biedrins hits near 70% of his opportunities, Foyle is still at 50%. We're not talking about minutes, but in terms of touches. It's not like Foyle is in charge of creating his own shot, his shots should be almost perfect each night because he's wide freakin' open right at the rim and all he has to do is be ready for the ball. If we give the ball to Biedrins it's a quick catch, dunk, all in one motion type of play. Also, it would be nice to have a legit inside threat posting up on every posession to draw some defenders inside to help. Nobody is scared of our guys inside. Nobody. Mainly, because we don't have any. The other team would rather zone up, double Baron, and hope he jacks up a shot. We have to keep the defense honest and we don't play smart enough to create high percentage opportunities. We need to use some level of inside scoring with our small players in lieu of an inside scoring big man. Pietrus and Jrich are kind of doing it with the way they hustle, but they will get tired down the stretch. That's a problem. Also, who feeds the guards if Foyle and Murphy are the big men running high post plays for the guards? They sure ain't setup guys, so that's why I agree with CH that one or the other has to go and be that setup guy. Dunleavy at PF just won't cut it in most games and I think Zarko is on his way out.
<div class="quote_poster">Quoting Kwan1031:</div><div class="quote_post">It's interesting to see this team without Davis and Murphy. For last 3 games... Cavs: 39.8% FG Snow: 6-8, 12 pts Gooden: 0-4, 1 pts Big Z: 5-16, 14 pts Marshall: 5-13, 12 pts Rebound: 38-36 Cavs Griz: 37.5% Aktins: 2-12, 10 pts Jackson: 4-10, 10 pts Gasol: 10-26, 23 pts Wright: 2-4, 4 pts Rebound: 48-48 Clippers: 40.2% Cassell: 6-16, 16 pts Ewing: 1-5, 2 pts Brand: 5-18, 15 pts Kaman: 5-11, 10 pts Rebound: 52-46 Warriors We didn't exactly collapse despite missing two starters. As a matter of fact, we were close to go 3 game winning streak. `The fact: We are much better with Davis. Watching 4th quarter in last 3 games were painful to say the least. And, Fisher will not average 20 pts when Davis is not here. That has been said, when Davis is here, we heavily rely on Davis, and that means if Davis has a bad game, the entire team suffers. For last few games, Davis hurted the team more than helped it, and in a sense, his injury may be a blessing in a disguise; he got a little break, because of All-Star break, we may only miss Davis for 3 games, and the team got a time to refocus and play hard. If this team play hard like last 3 games and Davis can help the team, who knows what can happen? And, we can really use another 18-8 run to make PO. Murphy: I really don't know what to say in this case. Maybe, it's because of excellent games from Foyle, who averaged 2.5 blk and 7.3 rebounds in 4 games, and Richardson, who averaged 9.3 rebounds in 4 games. Maybe, it's because everybody played extra hard to fill Murphy's game. Or, Murphy could have been the problem all along. Four games are just too short to determine whether Murphy is a problem or a solution, and Richardson will not rebound 9.3 per game. But, for 4 games, we really took their 4 and 5 out of the game. Stay tuned...</div> I don't know if adding Murphy in there is the most accurate. I think it is legit to say that when both Baron and Jason are in there the defense is bad. But I think two weeks ago when Jason was out the defense stepped up, especially on the perimeter and Murphy was even one of the bright sides on defense playing well against many of the top PF's in the league. I like that Pietrus and Ellis bring good defense to the game. I think they are catalysts to the defense. How many deflections did Ellis get in the first half?(sorry I fell asleep halfway through the second half...hehe) And Pietrus getting 5 offensive boards. Those are a lot of small basketball plays that equate to winning. I also like that Zarko is getting his proper PT, finally. I am also thinking that Baron should play more SG when he comes back. We all know he goes on his spells of bad decisions, so I think moving him to a SG once in a while to counter it could be a decent alternative, especially when the team likes to play so much of that small lineup. Dunleavy definitley isn't a full time PG, but he is doing a very find job these last month filling in there, and I think it should stay that way. The Warrios have always had these offensive pieces and even defensive pieces. It is good seeing them get the proper PT. Hopefully the coach will adjust his rotations when the whole roster is back to promote and encourage production from the bench(since a lot of these good performers are kind of bench players, such as Fisher, Diogu, Zarko, Ellis, and Biedrins when he was in there and healthy). Also the Clippers seem different without Wilcox now. They seemed to have lost their big man depth after that trade.
Yeah, I am not giving up on Murphy yet. I mean, it could have been just coincident. And, because Davis are absent as well, we focused on defense much more, so that might have caused those stats. Also, the major reason I may consider trading Murphy is because of our incoming salary problem and we need some sort of inside presence, and it's much harder to get a center than PF, not Murphy as a player. That has been said, I am looking closely when Murphy is out, and how his absence impacts the game, because he is one of big contracts that we can actually move...
