I was on that bandwagon AGAINST Baron for being selfish and not listening to the coach in the 4Q. Just look at those close games we lost throughout the season. But then when Baron went down and Fish replaced him, Fish had the same problem and started acting like Baron when he was at the helm. He started chucking shots and trying to create for himself. Coincidence? Think not. My take is -- remember the problems the Warriors had because they never had a go to guy before Baron arrived? Well, we still don't . I thought JRich would be the man to step it up when the game was on the line, but he's been inconsistent at best, with his FT woes and trying to create a shot for himself. Dun has been fitted for that role before, but he's not a great shot. Murphy? He kinda tries to find a corner where he can park himself. So that leaves Baron (when healthy) and Fish to win the game for them. And what do they do? They forget it's a team game after a few misses and start chucking like there's no tomorrow. Any other thoughts? This has happened way too often in tight games to be a coincidence.
Jason Voorhees... (side note) You're not related to Todd in San Diego (formerly of Sac) by any chance are you? Or is it a Friday the 13th...Jason I think the problem is 1 there's no post players, 2 the 5 spot (Foyle) can't set a screen and is not a threat on the roll... Biedrins couldn't stay on the floor earlier in the league, so there's no chance of coming inside. I've been tooing the Murphy needs to go because he doesn't fit (not because he's no good) horn for awhile. We'll see if Mully sees the same thing or not by the end of this off-season.
I don't think it's that so much... Not counting certain talents we'd like to have, it's probably fatigue and lack of depth, actually. (Although, I think Baron's ego does get in the way of his potential like Steve Francis) We have plenty of guys to be a go-to guy, but it's hard when you're trying to do too much by yourself when you're already working your ass off on defense all throughout the game and you're plain tired. If you take a look at minutes, Bdiddy, Murphy and Jrich probably play the most minutes with little rest in the 2nd half. Guards have to move their feet the most out of all the players and if they get beat they better hope there's a set of big men that can make a defender think twice about going inside. Sometimes we don't have that presence or energy, especially with the small lineup playing out of position and guys not getting the rest in fear we might lose too much scoring production. Murphy also has to work incredibly hard just to become decent at defense... We also don't rebound well enough after playing the defense which kills it even more. We could do away with that small veteran roster and play more rookies or defensive role players, but we lose scoring talent, we lose even more of that teamwork/chemistry the Warriors are trying to build upon, and we've got young guys who might not handle late game situations well such as the Monta Ellis/Pietrus costly mistakes. It's all debatable, but I think we have trouble keeping it close because as a small team with not much depth in the middle, we always have to work that much harder to make up for lack of size. We have to use quickness and hustle and good shooting and passing. It just takes more energy and hustle and eventually it runs out, the other team starts to regain control of the tempo. Sometimes we lose production quite dramatically because some guys don't produce like they're suppose to on any given night. We also don't play well as a team yet IMO. We settle for one-pass shots, we don't set very good screens, we don't move more off the ball, and we can't even run a fastbreak or set screens correctly. There are some flashes that we can play well together, such as out of bounds plays and our team defense, but often times its one-on-one ball and a static offense that follows it. Then we can't board and we get defensive breakdowns when one of the players can't help out in time. Lately, the Warriors have done a good job playing as a team. They've moved the ball well, played great man-to-man D, hustled and did the little things. Even Derek Fisher has taken less threes and has gotten rid of the ball earlier rather than overdribble. This is a success and step in the right direction at creating more accurate shots as team. We take the shots the defense gives us but we need to increase those opportunities for good looks at the basket by working together and creating space. This requires teamwork from all 5 players rather than the efforts of one player. 5 guys need to understand floor spacing, inside-outside/side-to-side ball movement, passing, cutting, running backdoor, setting screens, recognizing the double team and helping out, all this stuff the young Warriors haven't been doing for the last few seasons. They need to move so they can draw defenders a certain way and make good passes when they see a teammate with an open look. Open looks are usually high % shots (unless it's Dunleavy taking them. Also, talent wise very few people outside of Baron can create their own shot and very few people can shoot a high % shot. Most of our starting lineup are below 43% shooters and our depth of rookies isn't much better. That's why I pray for some offensive help inside so we can get a 50% scorer, a few touch fouls, and a sound inside-outside game with playsets. But that big man talent is hard to find especially when Gms in the past went for guys like Todd Fuller/Joe Smith/Adonal Foyle and we had to settle for those poor choices. These few years we have much better promise in our big men, but like all players, they aren't without flaws. Ike may have some initial struggles, Biedrins was never an offensive guy to begin with and he's weak by NBA standards, Taft is hurt and mostly a defensive guy, and Zarko is inconsistent and not an inside scorer. We need more weapons and the chemistry needs to be there so we can create go-to guys with open looks and be able to give them a good amount of rest before important minutes. There's a big difference in the way we play versus less talented teams that have better records. The difference is we don't play as a team well enough throughout the entire game and we don't do the things that makes other scorers better. Only Baron Davis does that (and to some degree Jrich and Dunleavy), but if Bdiddy tries to do too much by himself, then other team just traps him, closes off the passing lanes, and then stops him or forces him to shoot that ugly jumper. Playing that way just causes us to lose because all of the Warriors' flaws get exposed at once when we're not working together on either ends of the floor.
<div class="quote_poster">Quoting CohanHater:</div><div class="quote_post">Jason Voorhees... (side note) You're not related to Todd in San Diego (formerly of Sac) by any chance are you? Or is it a Friday the 13th...Jason I think the problem is 1 there's no post players, 2 the 5 spot (Foyle) can't set a screen and is not a threat on the roll... Biedrins couldn't stay on the floor earlier in the league, so there's no chance of coming inside. I've been tooing the Murphy needs to go because he doesn't fit (not because he's no good) horn for awhile. We'll see if Mully sees the same thing or not by the end of this off-season.</div> Hee hee. I'm still in Sactown and it's Friday the 13th franchise jason. Still the most successful horror movie franchise ever . The problem you bring up can be a thread by itself. None of our bigs and guards are great with the screen and roll cause the bigs are not mobile ball handlers and shooters, and our guards aren't great in the pick and pop. It's an issue that I have with Monty being the head coach. He was the wrong freakin' hire for this team! Lordy, HIS SYSTEM doesn't fit our personnel well.
custodianrules2, Nice reply. I generally agreed with your points. Was going to go over it point-by-point, but I timed out and lost the message . Don't have time to re-type, but basically we don't have a REAL go-to-guy. Just think if we had Paul Pierce to pair with a Baron or JRich. A guy who can hit them in crunch time is the answer. Another guy who would be good instead of Baron would be Arenas. He's been shooting it lights out.
<div class="quote_poster">Quoting jason voorhees:</div><div class="quote_post">Hee hee. I'm still in Sactown and it's Friday the 13th franchise jason. Still the most successful horror movie franchise ever . The problem you bring up can be a thread by itself. None of our bigs and guards are great with the screen and roll cause the bigs are not mobile ball handlers and shooters, and our guards aren't great in the pick and pop. It's an issue that I have with Monty being the head coach. He was the wrong freakin' hire for this team! Lordy, HIS SYSTEM doesn't fit our personnel well.</div> I don't understand. The big guys don't have to be mobile ball handlers or shooters, that's the guard's job. The big man does have to understand floor spacing, how to set a good screen, when to come off the screen, how to read the defense so he can get a good scoring opportunity inside or pass to someone else or to clear the way of the ballhandler. Do you mean why Monty subs in Dunleavy or some ballhandler at PF? If yes, I simply believe it's a matter of finding a secondary playmaker option from somewhere because Jrich and Pietrus play more like small forwards with intent to score. Plus, they don't handle or pass the ball as well as Dun-nothing Dunleavy, Baron or the Fish does. Plus, we're a perimeter team with no veteran post-up threats, shot creators, or good playmakers outside of Baron. So, we either create offense by passing/moving off the ball or dribble penetrate with the ballhandlers we do have, or take jump shots off of screens which we don't set very well. Also when Fish gets subbed in as undersized two, he's more of a scorer like Murphy is, than an actual setup guy. Baron can be that way too. I think this is all a team chemistry problem and lack of identity where everyone wants to score, make only one-pass or two pass shots without moving much, and forgetting about the teamwork side of things. Nobody has the mindset to unselfishly set up other people, do the extra things that don't show up on a stat sheet. Nobody knows where they are supposed to be half of the time and sometimes Baron Davis gives up. Meanwhile, Elie is telling Baron to run the f-ing play. I believe that Monty isn't the right hire for the short term, but he's here to teach this club some things about basketball because the team doesn't have that level of teamwork or talent yet. It never did. Baron Davis won't change the franchise in a single season without adding more to it or playing better team ball. The Suns at least added a few guys to it on top of their two all-stars in Amare and Marion and the Hornets had two all-stars on their roster during their good years with Baron. But both those teams had at least a few guys that did the dirty work inside and for the star players. How many all-stars did we have before Baron? How about None. Did we ever have any good teamplay/organization/identity/good role players before Baron Davis? None. You know it, any knowledgeble fan that watches a lot of basketball knows this is true. We don't do the dirty work and play smart enough to make up for lack of overall talent. Things like how to set a good screen, how to create high % shot opportunities without being able to handle the ball well or post up inside,. Things like making the extra pass or running some set plays. Unfortunately that and a lot of things takes time to develop and understand, time that most fans are tired of dealing with. Montgomery, whether you love him or hate him, treats his players like men and they're supposed to act and carry out orders like men. It's a big problem in the difference between college basketball players and talented nba millionaires. Anyway, whether Baron is kicking ass or not, whether people are blaming Monty for his judgement calls or Dunleavy is scapegoated as an overpaid bum that can't shoot, the team needs to play together as one. In the end it's really about Mullin's future strategy in the time given to him as GM and the guys he's drafted thus far. If Montgomery can make a few of our current guys and our future guys into a great team some day, I could care less how we do this year. Just as long as we see some improvement and balance in our team play. We'll see a huge difference when that happens. I mean the whole strategy of basketball is the same wherever you go, college or pros. The difference is the talent you have to work with and the things the players are willing to do to win. Sometimes, I think we lack talent, experience, depth, and players aren't willing to commit to performing a 5 on 5 type of halfcourt game when we can't run. They all just want to play one-on-one ball and settle for threes rather than pass, set good screens, take shots closer in, get the rebounds. Let's hope the rookies get more burn and learn the right way because I think the attitude on this team is to take the easy way out. The coaches aren't stupid. They may take some bad risks with player minutes and not playing certain guys, but they have an idea how this team could be playing better. Most of the Golden State fans have no seen good basketball in years let alone know what a good team looks like. It sure ain't just superstars making teams win, it's more than that. We may think the head coaching is stupid, but we're just fans. If we were put in the same position as those coaches are right now we'd probably be facing the same scrutiny no matter what we do. In the course of it, we'd probably get some rookies investment's confidence way down if they got too much pressure on them in front of their teammates. Fans are fickle and they, like everyone else, has an idea of how things should be run.
<div class="quote_poster">Quoting jason voorhees:</div><div class="quote_post">custodianrules2, Nice reply. I generally agreed with your points. Was going to go over it point-by-point, but I timed out and lost the message . Don't have time to re-type, but basically we don't have a REAL go-to-guy. Just think if we had Paul Pierce to pair with a Baron or JRich. A guy who can hit them in crunch time is the answer. Another guy who would be good instead of Baron would be Arenas. He's been shooting it lights out.</div> Oh man that sucks copy and paste next time just in case. Yeah I agree more or less we lack a true go-to guy, but we can always create one. Lots of teams don't have ideal go-to guys but they find one to step up. I mean look at Fisher in the 4th quarter. He is the man if you give him some daylight and you set him up for a shot. He also hits a good free throw %. Baron Davis can be a go-to guy if he's trying to play within himself and not forced into long jumpers or free throw situation. Jrich is a go-to guy when he's not forced to hit free throws or dribble the ball in traffic. But yeah I wish Jrich could at least dribble the ball and hit free throws as well as The Truth. But at least he hits high % shots from the field. I think it would be nice to have an ultimate go-to guy, a guy that create his own shot any time he pleases, can handle the pressure, makes others better, and sinks his free throws at least 80% of the time. You got guys like Kobe, A.I., T-mac, Vinsanity, Gilbert Arenas, Chancey Billups, Manu Ginobilli, Jamal, Steve Nash, Mashburn used to be one of those guys, Sam Cassell, etc, etc. They have two or more qualities that gives them great opportunities to free themselves up, finish and convert in a clutch situation and worry about others they could pass the ball to. These are all guys that can be post-up and triple threats as well. Baron Davis and Jrich have several flaws, but they can be unstoppable and clutch as those guys listed above, but they need some execution/presence from the rest of the team and they need to hit free throws and hit their shots. Also, the problem is are teams afraid to foul them in a close game? Absolutely not and I bet Baron and Jrich are afraid of going to the line. Foul them, outrebound them, force them into long jumpers and exploit them on D. Sometimes the last shot, refs never call fouls on players anyway so they might just body up on our go-to guys if they need to. Baron/Jrich are only good down the stretch when they're playing within themselves just like any other player in the league. BTW maybe Kevin Garnett and Lebron James are struggling to find the same help clutch players need to keep from getting swarmed. They've been giving up the ball quite a bit lately. Quicker players tend to have the advantage of getting to the line more whereas I see Garnett and Lebron James more finesse and power than overall quickness. Quickness is super hard to defend because it's not possible to react to unless you get help or can match it. What I'm saying is, if the other players aren't stepping up its a given who is going to shoot the last ball. If it's a guy like Kobe and you know he's going to shoot it, well sometimes there's no stopping it because he's just an unstoppable kind of player. But if Garnett or Lebron James is there and you have an answer for it to stay in front and contest the shot, it could be very possible to stop it. When this observation is applied to slower guys that lack quickness like Sam Cassell, well the worry is you might foul him or he'll just shoot over the smaller guard and he'll hit it accurately... or he'll pass it to somebody for an open basket or a better shot. But that requires that he trust his teammates and his teammates can handle 4th quarter pressure. But anyway, go-to guys, they learn how to be successful with everyone drawing in on them and use it to set somebody else up to make them the heroes of the game. You've seen it with Baron Davis finding Fisher and Jrich hitting a 3 pointer in front of two defenders with time running out. These are all go-to guys, but maybe not the ideal go-to guys all on their own.
Baron Davis is a go to guy in the clutch. What you need to do is spread the floor and let him use his athletic ability because I don't think there is a PG in the league that can defend him 1 on 1. The thing is he's got to go all the way instead of pulling up for a three. If you get him driving to the basket then you can get the defense to collapse on him, but when/if he kicks it out to an open guy that guy needs to be able to hit the jumper. The warriors need a guy that can consistently hit the open jumper, because you will get a lot of them with Baron an J-Rich penetrating the defense.
<div class="quote_poster">Quoting Rockets_1:</div><div class="quote_post">Baron Davis is a go to guy in the clutch. What you need to do is spread the floor and let him use his athletic ability because I don't think there is a PG in the league that can defend him 1 on 1. The thing is he's got to go all the way instead of pulling up for a three. If you get him driving to the basket then you can get the defense to collapse on him, but when/if he kicks it out to an open guy that guy needs to be able to hit the jumper. The warriors need a guy that can consistently hit the open jumper, because you will get a lot of them with Baron an J-Rich penetrating the defense.</div> Unfortunately whenever he drives to the basket, he never gets the foul call. I've seen him get jacked insided all the time, and no foul call.
<div class="quote_poster">Quoting custodianrules2:</div><div class="quote_post">I don't understand. The big guys don't have to be mobile ball handlers or shooters, that's the guard's job. The big man does have to understand floor spacing, how to set a good screen, when to come off the screen, how to read the defense so he can get a good scoring opportunity inside or pass to someone else or to clear the way of the ballhandler. Do you mean why Monty subs in Dunleavy or some ballhandler at PF? If yes, I simply believe it's a matter of finding a secondary playmaker option from somewhere because Jrich and Pietrus play more like small forwards with intent to score. Plus, they don't handle or pass the ball as well as Dun-nothing Dunleavy, Baron or the Fish does. Plus, we're a perimeter team with no veteran post-up threats, shot creators, or good playmakers outside of Baron. So, we either create offense by passing/moving off the ball or dribble penetrate with the ballhandlers we do have, or take jump shots off of screens which we don't set very well.</div> I mean mobile big men who can handle the rock like Odom, Kwame and players the Lakers have. They have Kobe and Smush who can run their man into a screen and then pick and pop. Stockton to Malone made a living out of the pick n' row. Malone can move with or without the ball and make shots. <div class="quote_poster">Quote:</div><div class="quote_post">Also when Fish gets subbed in as undersized two, he's more of a scorer like Murphy is, than an actual setup guy. Baron can be that way too. I think this is all a team chemistry problem and lack of identity where everyone wants to score, make only one-pass or two pass shots without moving much, and forgetting about the teamwork side of things. Nobody has the mindset to unselfishly set up other people, do the extra things that don't show up on a stat sheet. Nobody knows where they are supposed to be half of the time and sometimes Baron Davis gives up. Meanwhile, Elie is telling Baron to run the f-ing play. I believe that Monty isn't the right hire for the short term, but he's here to teach this club some things about basketball because the team doesn't have that level of teamwork or talent yet. It never did. Baron Davis won't change the franchise in a single season without adding more to it or playing better team ball. The Suns at least added a few guys to it on top of their two all-stars in Amare and Marion and the Hornets had two all-stars on their roster during their good years with Baron. But both those teams had at least a few guys that did the dirty work inside and for the star players. How many all-stars did we have before Baron? How about None. Did we ever have any good teamplay/organization/identity/good role players before Baron Davis? None. You know it, any knowledgeble fan that watches a lot of basketball knows this is true. We don't do the dirty work and play smart enough to make up for lack of overall talent. Things like how to set a good screen, how to create high % shot opportunities without being able to handle the ball well or post up inside,. Things like making the extra pass or running some set plays. Unfortunately that and a lot of things takes time to develop and understand, time that most fans are tired of dealing with. Montgomery, whether you love him or hate him, treats his players like men and they're supposed to act and carry out orders like men. It's a big problem in the difference between college basketball players and talented nba millionaires. Anyway, whether Baron is kicking ass or not, whether people are blaming Monty for his judgement calls or Dunleavy is scapegoated as an overpaid bum that can't shoot, the team needs to play together as one. In the end it's really about Mullin's future strategy in the time given to him as GM and the guys he's drafted thus far. If Montgomery can make a few of our current guys and our future guys into a great team some day, I could care less how we do this year. Just as long as we see some improvement and balance in our team play. We'll see a huge difference when that happens. I mean the whole strategy of basketball is the same wherever you go, college or pros. The difference is the talent you have to work with and the things the players are willing to do to win. Sometimes, I think we lack talent, experience, depth, and players aren't willing to commit to performing a 5 on 5 type of halfcourt game when we can't run. They all just want to play one-on-one ball and settle for threes rather than pass, set good screens, take shots closer in, get the rebounds. Let's hope the rookies get more burn and learn the right way because I think the attitude on this team is to take the easy way out. The coaches aren't stupid. They may take some bad risks with player minutes and not playing certain guys, but they have an idea how this team could be playing better. Most of the Golden State fans have no seen good basketball in years let alone know what a good team looks like. It sure ain't just superstars making teams win, it's more than that. We may think the head coaching is stupid, but we're just fans. If we were put in the same position as those coaches are right now we'd probably be facing the same scrutiny no matter what we do. In the course of it, we'd probably get some rookies investment's confidence way down if they got too much pressure on them in front of their teammates. Fans are fickle and they, like everyone else, has an idea of how things should be run. </div> I'm not sold on Baron being the go to guy. Sure, if you spread the floor and iso him with the ball he can blow by his man. But I'm not so sure he can do that in Monty's offense. You can iso Ike down low, too. He can make a low post basket or if pushed out go for a mid-range J or extend out for a 3-ball. Monty is a college coach and college coaches don't do well in the NBA. They're in over their heads dealing with the lack of time to do what he wants and dealing with the NBA mentality. Sure he's a teacher, but when is he ever going to be able to teach? You can't set up long practices on the road. It's more or less on-the-job training if you ask me.
<div class="quote_poster">Quote:</div><div class="quote_post">Yeah I agree more or less we lack a true go-to guy, but we can always create one.</div> I doubt it with Monty being a college coach and Baron and he not getting along. JRich has a ways to go (dribbling to get his own shot and FTs). Dun needs a lethal weapon shot. Fish needs a spread offense and someone to feed him so he can catch n' shoot. I'm not sure what Murf needs -- maybe some ham. We got nice peripheral pieces. Now we need the one superstar.
Baron can be that one superstar. He can be a 20-10 guy, I just think he's frustrated with the coach and the way the team is performing. I think the warriors needs another coach besides Montgomery. One that can gain the whole teams respect and knows how to push them.
<div class="quote_poster">Quoting Rockets_1:</div><div class="quote_post">Baron can be that one superstar. He can be a 20-10 guy, I just think he's frustrated with the coach and the way the team is performing. I think the warriors needs another coach besides Montgomery. One that can gain the whole teams respect and knows how to push them.</div> I'm not doubting Baron's talent and want the ball in his hands during crunch time. The question I have for him right now is how is he going to use the ball? Jacking up 3s early in the clock or passing to Fish to put up a shot isn't the answer. You'd think there would be a solution for this, but so far in close games against good teams there hasn't been. I don't know whether to blame Monty (like you he is is my suspicion) or Baron for not listening to the coach (has a definite history of not listening and getting along with his coaches). It could be a little of both, too.
I don't really think you need to have a superstar to play well in the fourth quarter. The 4th period is when the game tension heightens and pretty much each team has the other players figured out, at least by this time. One problem is that Mike Montgomery's offensive system is kind of predictable and not one that you rely on in the 4th quarters or in desperate times 10 out of 10 times. The offense in the 4th quarter is too perimeter which usually matches the lineups Montgomery uses in this stretch, and it doesn't help to bring a balanced attack. Also since this is the offense that the team uses most of the game, by the 4th period the other team might have the Warriors offense down by then. Mike Montgomery uses a small lineup late in games which hurts defensively, rebounding, and like I mentioned before, by not even having a player in the paint in position to score. There are also free throw problems, of course. Finally in the 4th quarter in crunch moments the team has to be on the same page for everything and their play has to be crisp. For the Warriors it sometimes seems like there is a lot of confusion or uncertainty, and some sloppy play late in games. Yes having a Tim Duncan or Kobe Bryant would be helpful. But for the most part, you can at least play well in the 4th quarters just playing well together as a team. I mean look at the Pistons. They don't have any superstars on their team, in my opinion. They just have a lot of good players that play well together. I think the Warriors also have a lot of players, it's just that they are nowhere near the Pistons in terms of being on the same page while on the court, or being as crisp or solid as players. Who is the one player that the Pistons depend on in the crunch moments? There is a long list, I think. And in my opinion the Warriros should be the same. The Warriors have a lot of crunch time players in Fisher, Baron, Jason, and Pietrus. But most of their clutch performances have been indivdual. When the whole team can get on the same page and try to be at least a little bit more balance and have a few more different looks that they can give their opponents as threats, then their production for the whole 48 minutes of games should become much better.
<div class="quote_poster">Quoting jason voorhees:</div><div class="quote_post">I mean mobile big men who can handle the rock like Odom, Kwame and players the Lakers have. They have Kobe and Smush who can run their man into a screen and then pick and pop. Stockton to Malone made a living out of the pick n' row. Malone can move with or without the ball and make shots. </div> I don't see your point still. You're talking about mobile big men like Odom and Kwame Brown and then you're talking about Kobe and Smush Parker (who are guards) running their man into a screen. Is it a screen issue you're also talking about or is it just the problem with the two man game? Then you're basically saying that the big man doesn't have to move with the ball like Karl Malone, but it would be nice if he did? Well, I think the product of us not being able to manage pick and pop is look at the way we set screens at times. Super soft. And also defenses crowd the paint quite a bit to prevent any kind of inside action in the paint or clean shots from close to where the pick was set. So that leave us... to shoot midrange or long shots quite a bit. Sometimes guys settle for the three rather than the midrange shot they're supposed to hit more accurately. Warriors just have to improve their shooting in the intermediate range game and set better screens, I think. A lot of times players would just rather clear out in an attempt to space the floor and try to create something out of isolations and attack the dreaded zone defense. <div class="quote_poster">Quoting jason voorhees:</div><div class="quote_post"> I'm not sold on Baron being the go to guy. Sure, if you spread the floor and iso him with the ball he can blow by his man. But I'm not so sure he can do that in Monty's offense. You can iso Ike down low, too. He can make a low post basket or if pushed out go for a mid-range J or extend out for a 3-ball. </div> Anybody with skill and fundamentals can. If you're a good student you'll get an A no matter how you're tested. Multiple choice, word problems, whatever. Baron can do that if he's willing. He's a man isn't he? He can make these choices. If he's not willing to play the style that truly makes the team better, then he's going to go down that path failed franchise players. Steve Francis. Stephon Marbury. I wouldn't say Allen Iverson, but that guy wouldn't even come off the bench for his team out of ego and besides, what has he done lately besides hog up a lot of salary so that his team couldn't add more talent to make it better? <div class="quote_poster">Quoting jason voorhees:</div><div class="quote_post"> Monty is a college coach and college coaches don't do well in the NBA. They're in over their heads dealing with the lack of time to do what he wants and dealing with the NBA mentality. Sure he's a teacher, but when is he ever going to be able to teach? You can't set up long practices on the road. It's more or less on-the-job training if you ask me.</div> That's a myth and it's a stereotype. It's not an absolute. Larry Brown was a college coach wasn't he? The difference is he got a group of talented guys with prior team chemistry/playoff experience that wanted to win and were humble enough to listen to the coach in order to do that. Plus, they had a general manager that managed financials well to add more additions to it, they kept the right players over the years, and made some moves to land guys like Rasheed Wallace and some others like Mike James who are good defenders, can score, can do other things, and push the current team over the top. The Warriors suffer from having a team that has fewer dimensions, little depth, little size, the recent firing of the previous GM and coach in their minds. It's a homegrown team that has had too many coaching changes over the years, a lot of turnover, with management thinking the coaching is the problem, when it's been all sorts of things. The dilemma is the Warriors have to try to win right now with the players they have in only less than two years since Mullin took office, while trying to introduce the rookies little by little just like they did with Andris Biedrins, until they're damn ready to handle important minutes mentally and physically. Fans think they know what is best for rookies, has anyone here ever coached millionaires and seen them grow as a player? I'll trust the staff who have done these things before. Although I have doubts about things, I'll understand the reasoning behind it. Everything the Warriors do now is a work in progress and we need to stick with the long term plan and not worry about the short term things. We ain't getting anywhere that way like all the other years when its been that way. In the NBA the rich get richer. We need to earn our pay before we start thinking caviar and limos. People just jumped the gun expecting playoffs because of the buzz last year. We're basically the Sixers now only in a stronger conference.
<div class="quote_poster">Quoting Clif25:</div><div class="quote_post">I don't really think you need to have a superstar to play well in the fourth quarter. The 4th period is when the game tension heightens and pretty much each team has the other players figured out, at least by this time. One problem is that Mike Montgomery's offensive system is kind of predictable and not one that you rely on in the 4th quarters or in desperate times 10 out of 10 times. The offense in the 4th quarter is too perimeter which usually matches the lineups Montgomery uses in this stretch, and it doesn't help to bring a balanced attack. Also since this is the offense that the team uses most of the game, by the 4th period the other team might have the Warriors offense down by then. </div> Definitely true about not having to have a superstar close out a game, it's a team effort and certain guys have to step up when the occassion arises. You know whose offense was also predictable? Eric Musselman's. If anyone thinks this is a coaching problem, it could very well be a player i.q. problem and them not being smart enough as a team to play more advanced. It's like when the veterans like Nick Van Exel were coming here, they were complaining how we weren't organized enough and that we were too predictable coming of screens and cuts. Maybe the coach has to dumb it down for these guys. We could have f'n Red Auerbach and the Warriors still would stand around and probably have some kind of breakdown. It's a learning experience. <div class="quote_poster">Quoting Clif25:</div><div class="quote_post"> Mike Montgomery uses a small lineup late in games which hurts defensively, rebounding, and like I mentioned before, by not even having a player in the paint in position to score. </div> I agree. Rookies are our only depth in the size positions. We need to try some things outside of Monty philosophy because playing out of position to get the perimeter game going just hurts us defensively and we can't get good high % shots. The problem is what if it's a tie game and somebody commits a Pietrus or an Ellis jump ball error. Even Ike or Biedrins is going to get a bad whistle and Foyle just plain plays like a rookie at times. I say let the rookies play, but then we're going to turn around blame the rookies next if they fail. Then the rookies have to rebuild confidence. <div class="quote_poster">Quoting Clif25:</div><div class="quote_post"> There are also free throw problems, of course. Finally in the 4th quarter in crunch moments the team has to be on the same page for everything and their play has to be crisp. For the Warriors it sometimes seems like there is a lot of confusion or uncertainty, and some sloppy play late in games. </div> Which is why I think the Warriors dumb down the plays or they don't run it at all. Too much discombobulation and that's why Baron/Dfish/others takes matters into his own hands and Dunleavy disappears. Also, lack of depth probably causes guys like Baron, JRich or Murphy to get sloppy on D. These guys get so little rest because we go on some kind of offensive drought in the 2nd half, especially against the zone which we have nobody to drive against or take accurate midrange shots or hit those threes. <div class="quote_poster">Quoting Clif25:</div><div class="quote_post"> Yes having a Tim Duncan or Kobe Bryant would be helpful. But for the most part, you can at least play well in the 4th quarters just playing well together as a team. I mean look at the Pistons. They don't have any superstars on their team, in my opinion. They just have a lot of good players that play well together. I think the Warriors also have a lot of players, it's just that they are nowhere near the Pistons in terms of being on the same page while on the court, or being as crisp or solid as players. Who is the one player that the Pistons depend on in the crunch moments? There is a long list, I think. And in my opinion the Warriros should be the same. The Warriors have a lot of crunch time players in Fisher, Baron, Jason, and Pietrus. But most of their clutch performances have been indivdual. When the whole team can get on the same page and try to be at least a little bit more balance and have a few more different looks that they can give their opponents as threats, then their production for the whole 48 minutes of games should become much better.</div> Right on, Clif! More weapons, more efficiency is the key. We (as in the Warriors) limit ourselves so much. Just look at our out of bounds plays we run. We can be a better perimeter team than right now. Of course we can't be the best team because.. hell... we're in the Western Conference that typically has 20/10 guys that play inside and some kind of outside attack to support that threat + defense. We can't even get the rebound half the time to make a stop or run out and score in the open.
Dumbing down the plays is good with a make-shift roster, which is kind of what Musselman had, especially in his second season when there were players coming and going from injuries and after an offseason with a lot of changes in the roster. This squad has had about half the end of last year, all of last offseason with minimal change(besides the addition of the rookies and some coach movement), and the first half of this season to come up with some sort of plays that brings high percentage shots. No matter how basic a play is, it could even be the basic pick-n-roll, what really matters is just how crisp you use that play, which usually comes from tons of repitition and also I suppose players who are good at improvising on the court. And of course with the pick-and-roll I am talking about Stockton and Malone. One problem, I also kind of sense, could be this competition on the team between some of the players who want to be that player that takes the team to the next level. I don't think it's a very conscious competition, but I think it is one that exists. I believe this competition is between Baron Davis, Jason Richardson, and late in games maybe even Derek Fisher. They all have their legit reasons to play like this. I mean Jason has been the Warriors leader for multiple seasons now, ever since he was drafted out of college(well maybe a year or two after he really became that leader); Baron Davis has often been looked at by I think everyone in some shape or form as the savior and the superstar of this team; and Fisher has been clutch so many times before, which I think gives himself the green light to maybe jack up a lot of shots. And this problem I believe becomes what we have all been talking about this whole year in terms of too much 1-on-1 basketball being played, too many perimeter shots, not enough ball movement, or just having possessions where the ball handlers are just looking for either the assist or the point(this which creates a lack of ball movement, and just looks ugly when there are a lot of bad shots being taken, or when shots aren't being made by the players). One encouraging thing that I saw when Jason Richardson was out I believe against the Blazers or Nuggets, I think the Blazers, or maybe another team. But anyway, Bob Fitzgerald was saying "I am sensing a comeback from the other team"(maybe this isn't the exact quote but something like this) and I was kind of sensing this too. And the Warriors came down with the ball, and nothing was developing. I was then waiting for some shot to be put up and just being ok with a bad shot being put up, and moving on, like it seems the Warriors do so often, it's sadly a normal thought that passes my mind. But on this possession the team just kept working hard, kept control of the ball, kept active, and finally they found the defense out of positions and a man open near the basket I believe for an easy 2. This I believe sucked out any potential energy that could have been building up for a run by the opposing team and put a lot of good thoughts in the Warriors heads and esteem. This is the type of play that the Warriors need to work to achieve, especially in grinding situations. It is one of the things that I think lacks when Baron, Jason and sometimes Fisher are in there though. I mean it looks great and it makes the management look good when Baron, Jason, or Fisher can help bring life back into the Warriors team, individually, or make them stay afloat. But it looks best when the coaching and the players can work together so that there are players like Zarko, Ellis, Pietrus, Dunleavy, Murphy, Biedrins, and Foyle who bring that production and success to this team. It also brings a less predictable offense. I believe this is one of the reasons why the Pistons offense has been good this year. It's because you never know which one is going to beat you, until it could be too late. That was one of the things that made those weaker Musselman rosters in his second year win as many games as it did. Because out of nowhere there was Sean Lampley beating the opposint team, or Boykins, or Cardinal, or Pietrus and Dunleavy at the end of the year.
<div class="quote_poster">Quoting upsidedownside7:</div><div class="quote_post">what up jason</div> Hey waht up upside? Like your avatar here better than on that other web site .
<div class="quote_poster">Quoting custodianrules2:</div><div class="quote_post">I don't see your point still. You're talking about mobile big men like Odom and Kwame Brown and then you're talking about Kobe and Smush Parker (who are guards) running their man into a screen. Is it a screen issue you're also talking about or is it just the problem with the two man game? Then you're basically saying that the big man doesn't have to move with the ball like Karl Malone, but it would be nice if he did?</div> The W's don't have the big men who do the screen roll very well. They still look like they're unorganized. It looks like they're afraid of being kicked in the nuts with the fig leaf stance instead of kicking the other guy's nuts with the pick. Look at teams like the Lakers and Mavs who give you different looks before going into their sets. They also can start it at different areas of the floor. <div class="quote_poster">Quoting custodianrules2:</div><div class="quote_post">Well, I think the product of us not being able to manage pick and pop is look at the way we set screens at times. Super soft. And also defenses crowd the paint quite a bit to prevent any kind of inside action in the paint or clean shots from close to where the pick was set. So that leave us... to shoot midrange or long shots quite a bit. Sometimes guys settle for the three rather than the midrange shot they're supposed to hit more accurately. Warriors just have to improve their shooting in the intermediate range game and set better screens, I think. A lot of times players would just rather clear out in an attempt to space the floor and try to create something out of isolations and attack the dreaded zone defense.</div> Our guards may use the screen, but a lot good that does because they're not good shooters from far out. JRich IS a shooter, but he can't dribble. <div class="quote_poster">Quoting custodianrules2:</div><div class="quote_post">Anybody with skill and fundamentals can. If you're a good student you'll get an A no matter how you're tested. Multiple choice, word problems, whatever. Baron can do that if he's willing. He's a man isn't he? He can make these choices. If he's not willing to play the style that truly makes the team better, then he's going to go down that path failed franchise players. Steve Francis. Stephon Marbury. I wouldn't say Allen Iverson, but that guy wouldn't even come off the bench for his team out of ego and besides, what has he done lately besides hog up a lot of salary so that his team couldn't add more talent to make it better?</div> Don't like Francis' attitude. He whined himself out of Vancouver picking him. Got ran out of town in Houston. And it looks like Orlando is trying to do same. Baron could be another one like Francis. Good thing he hasn't refused to go into a game (knock on wood). If we're going to continue to run Monty's system, then I rather have Marbury. At least, he can shoot and he's not going to chuck up 3-balls like Baron. I'm not as sure about Iverson because he's three years older than Baron and more of a one-man offense. <div class="quote_poster">Quoting custodianrules2:</div><div class="quote_post">That's a myth and it's a stereotype. It's not an absolute. Larry Brown was a college coach wasn't he?</div> Larry Brown was a college coach, but he's the exception than the rule. Most college coaches don't make and Monty's already in way over his head. Look at what Dickie V has to say: http://espn.go.com/dickvitale/vcolumn010215coaching.html I think Monty wasn't the right man for the job. We can get rid of him and still keep his system by going with Smart or Elie. I like Elie because he developed Monta and had the W's running more during summer league. Afterwards, if Baron still doesn't listen, then he should be traded.
