If Steve Nash wins MVP, I have a good argument that John Stockton was robbed.

How come Stockton was never MVP? Sure, he never won a championship with his team, but he certainly got them farther than Nash has gotten Phoenix. Might I mention that he played defense, which is something Nash dreams about? He leads the league all time in assists and steals. He made scrubs on Utah better. He was like Nash, but with better hair and defensive abilities.
WHY WAS HE NEVER MVP?!

"Jordan" is not an acceptable answer.

 

You act like Stock took a team with average players and made them contenders. There's that guy called Karl Malone, you may of heard Of him. He was the big reason the Jazz got as far as they did. Even though he did choke in the finals both years they made It.

 

<div class="quote_poster">Quoting AllNet:</div><div class="quote_post">You act like Stock took a team with average players and made them contenders. There's that guy called Karl Malone, you may of heard Of him. He was the big reason the Jazz got as far as they did. Even though he did choke in the finals both years they made It.</div>

Steve Nash didn't take average players anywhere either. He did have Stoudemire and some guy called Marion.

 

<div class="quote_poster">Quoting Avery:</div><div class="quote_post">Steve Nash didn't take average players anywhere either. He did have Stoudemire and some guy called Marion.</div>

Maybe not Amare or Marion but there's a reason why the Suns have been picked to do not that well the past few years by so called experts. The role players likely wouldn't get the looks they do when playing with Nash. Alot of those guys are good players but would not be putting up the numbers they do anywhere else. Nash's court vision is quite amazing and really his defense is not as bad as people think. He has improved quite abit in that area.

 

- During Stockton's best years, the Jazz weren't an elite team.
- The way the Suns play with Nash sticks out more because no other team plays at nearly the same pace.
- The Suns were a mediocre team before Nash came, and a great team after he arrived. Stockton's impact on the Jazz when he emerged as a great player in the late 80s wasn't nearly as stark (they only improved by a few games).
- Nash is also more of a scoring threat. He averaged 30 ppg against Dallas in the playoffs last year.

 

Stockon made karl malone good, steve nash is making guys like raja bell and boris diaw good, i think that's enough said. Aside from defense how can you argue stoncton was more talented? I've even heard commentors talk about how steve nash is in fact a better passer then he was. Stocton was great but subtract malone from hsi career, and how would he have been remembered?

 

<div class="quote_poster">Quoting Chuck:</div><div class="quote_post">How come Stockton was never MVP? Sure, he never won a championship with his team, but he certainly got them farther than Nash has gotten Phoenix. Might I mention that he played defense, which is something Nash dreams about? He leads the league all time in assists and steals. He made scrubs on Utah better. He was like Nash, but with better hair and defensive abilities.
WHY WAS HE NEVER MVP?!

"Jordan" is not an acceptable answer. </div>

Stockton played in the jordan era making it almost impossible to get an mvp award over him, not to mention bird and magic as well who are all champions.

 

<div class="quote_poster">Quoting Johnnybrasco:</div><div class="quote_post">Aside from defense how can you argue stoncton was more talented? I've even heard commentors talk about how steve nash is in fact a better passer then he was. Stocton was great but subtract malone from hsi career, and how would he have been remembered?</div>

Wow...

 

<div class="quote_poster">Quoting Johnnybrasco:</div><div class="quote_post">Aside from defense how can you argue stoncton was more talented? I've even heard commentors talk about how steve nash is in fact a better passer then he was. Stocton was great but subtract malone from hsi career, and how would he have been remembered?</div>

Wow...

Don't even know if it's worth it.

 

<div class="quote_poster">Quoting Johnnybrasco:</div><div class="quote_post">Stockon made karl malone good, steve nash is making guys like raja bell and boris diaw good, i think that's enough said. Aside from defense how can you argue stoncton was more talented? I've even heard commentors talk about how steve nash is in fact a better passer then he was. Stocton was great but subtract malone from hsi career, and how would he have been remembered?</div>

Nash has been playing great the past two seasons, but before that was he so good? Commentors are all on Nash now, but before no one would dare say that. His great improvement doesn't make him, a better passer. Compare stats of both players over their careers, and tell me who is better.

 

<div class="quote_poster">Quoting Johnnybrasco:</div><div class="quote_post">Stockon made karl malone good, steve nash is making guys like raja bell and boris diaw good, i think that's enough said. Aside from defense how can you argue stoncton was more talented? I've even heard commentors talk about how steve nash is in fact a better passer then he was. Stocton was great but subtract malone from hsi career, and how would he have been remembered?</div>

If nothing else, Stockton also has 700 more steals than any other player in NBA history.

 

<div class="quote_poster">Quoting AllNet:</div><div class="quote_post">Maybe not Amare or Marion but there's a reason why the Suns have been picked to do not that well the past few years by so called experts. The role players likely wouldn't get the looks they do when playing with Nash. Alot of those guys are good players but would not be putting up the numbers they do anywhere else. Nash's court vision is quite amazing and really his defense is not as bad as people think. He has improved quite abit in that area.</div>
Neither Amare, Marion, or JJ are "average" players. Before Nash came, Phoenix was considered to have on of the best young cores in the league with those 3 guys and Barbosa. Nash came and suddenly it's like these guys were all averaging 12 PPG before he was there.

While Nash is great, most of these guys wouldn't get the same shooting oppurtunities playing for another coach or in another system, even with Nash. Look at Dallas, the "lesser" players did not get the same oppurtunities as guys are now in Phoenix. It's not every coach in the league that gives the green light to everyone. Most coaches have a star guy they want to isolate all game instead.

Stockton isn't getting the same props because he played with Karl Malone. He also never got injured [along with Malone], so no one knew how the team would fare without him.

I don't think this is a debate about who's the better player. Stockton was a career +50% FG, and 38% 3PT shooter. He averaged 14.5 APG when his team played a similar pace to Phoenix last season. He averaged 12-13 APG many years where the Jazz were playing slower than the Suns, which was basically every year after Sloan became coach.

 

<div class="quote_poster">Quoting Chuck:</div><div class="quote_post">How come Stockton was never MVP? Sure, he never won a championship with his team, but he certainly got them farther than Nash has gotten Phoenix. Might I mention that he played defense, which is something Nash dreams about? He leads the league all time in assists and steals. He made scrubs on Utah better. He was like Nash, but with better hair and defensive abilities.
WHY WAS HE NEVER MVP?!

"Jordan" is not an acceptable answer. </div>

Karl Malone and MICHAEL Jordan, is that an answer lol. Michael Jordan just lead better in scoring and rebounds and still had good numbers in assists and steals. In 98 when John was at his best, Karl Malone had a fantastic year, winning many games and averaging heaps of points. No one thought who made him that good, so John may have gotten robbed. He is still in the NBA's Top 50 so dont worry!

 

<div class="quote_poster">Quoting Johnnybrasco:</div><div class="quote_post">Stockon made karl malone good, steve nash is making guys like raja bell and boris diaw good, i think that's enough said. Aside from defense how can you argue stoncton was more talented? I've even heard commentors talk about how steve nash is in fact a better passer then he was. Stocton was great but subtract malone from hsi career, and how would he have been remembered?</div>

First off, was the fact that you spelled Stockton wrong in three different ways on purpose?

I still believe that Nash deserved MVP last AND this year so far, but that's not that I think he was better than Stockton. Stockton just happened to be playing in an era with a guy that did more for the game than anyone else... ever. I guess I'm not supposed to say his name though, but that's really why. I will point out that Stockton's numbers aren't what you should be looking at though, as phenominally impressive as they are. He may have gotten more assists, but you have to look at the complete package. He may very well have deserved it a year or two, but MVP is a popularity/flavor-of-the-month thing. There was no way he was going to win when he was too soft-spoken and not even the most popular player on his own team.

j

 

I think the difference between Nash's and Stockton's situation is.

Nash came and made an instantaneous and very noticeable change with Phoenix.
Nash is in his prime while the other stars on his team are young, so Nash gets more notice.
Last year's MVP race was fairly weak, Garnett faded away, TD was injured, Kobe didn't make playoffs, Lebron's team didn't make playoffs.

When Stockton was on the Jazz he was the same age of Malone and neither ever got injured for like 18 years with the Jazz...

Now finally the biggest difference I think was the difference in amazing players in their prime...

Stockton had his best numbers from 87-88 season to 96-97 season.
---Lets look at the MVPs:
1997
Karl Malone Utah
1996
Michael Jordan * Chicago
1995
David Robinson San Antonio
1994
Hakeem Olajuwon Houston
1993
Charles Barkley Phoenix
1992
Michael Jordan Chicago
1991
Michael Jordan * Chicago
1990
Earvin "Magic" Johnson LA Lakers
1989
Earvin "Magic" Johnson LA Lakers
1988
Michael Jordan * Chicago
1987
Earvin "Magic" Johnson LA Lakers

So from 87-92 its between Jordan and Magic. Doesn't sound like he would win over those two.

From 93-95 you have Barkley, Robinson, Olajuwon all in their primes. 96 you have Jordan. 97 you have Malone, so I guess 97 was the only year Stockton had a chance. But if Stockton were to get the MVP that year, then Malone the guy with the 2nd most career points who was averaging 27 and 10 that year would never get a MVP.

 

I'm not gonna argue that Nash is a better player than Stockton.. I think that's just absurd.. Granted, that could be a debate if Nash sustains this level of excellence for like another 5 years and Phoenix actually wins a title..

In any case, MVP is purely about what one player does in 1 season!! And 1 season only! In that sense, Stockton was never the MVP of any single season during his career but Nash was definitely the MVP last year.. Does that diminish at all how GREAT of a career Stockton had? Hell no! But his great career shouldn't be used as a counterpoint to diminish how GREAT of a season Nash had last year either..

 

<div class="quote_poster">Quoting Allnet:</div><div class="quote_post">The role players likely wouldn't get the looks they do when playing with Nash.</div>

He kind of has a point here guys, JJ's 3pt % has dropped 12% from last year even though he is averaging 2 more ppg. We all know how much Q-Rich has suffered without Nash, ironically he's now playing with the point guard that the Suns let go.

 

Q-Rich is not struggling because of that, Q-Rich went from the Clipper team with an injured Jaric, Dooling, and House as his PG's, to Nash, and his numbers progressed like this:

<font color=""Navy"">LAC:</font> 17.2 PPG | 39.8% FG | 35.2% 3PT
<font color=""Navy"">PHO:</font> 14.9 PPG | 38.9% FG | 35.8% 3PT

Q-Rich has sucked this year because #1 Larry Brown doesn't let him take all the shots he wants. The guy is a streaky shooter, and his FG% is balanced out by the fact that he has hot streaks, which in NYK are not embraced since he has to jack up a lot of shots. #2 He's playing 10 less MPG, and #3, his team does not play the pace of the Suns.

Why is Joe Johnson's surprising? He went from being a #4 option [not #4 scorer] to being a #1 option. This year teams have their best defenders on him, and looking to stop him. Joe Johnson was the least assisted Sun last season, he was assisted on jumpshots 10% less than Vince, and at a similar amount to Paul Pierce.
Let's look at some examples:

<u>James Posey</u>
<font color=""Navy"">Denver 2nd option:</font> 14.9 PPG | 37.3% FG | 27.3% 3PT
<font color=""Navy"">Houston 5th option:</font> 9.3 PPG [11.4 adj for mins], 43.9% FG | 32.6% 3PT
<font color=""navy""> Memphis 4th/5th option </font>[also improved his shot]: 13.7 PPG | 47.8% FG | 38.6% 3PT.

<u>Antoine Walker</u> from ATL [first option] to Boston [second/third option with Ricky]:
20.4 PPG | 41.5% FG | 31.7% 3PT
16.3 PPG | 44.2% FG | 34.2% 3PT

<u>Michael Redd</u> from 6th man and 5th option behind Ray, Glenn, Cassell and Thomas, and 3rd option behind Cassell, and Payton/Allen to 1st option.
<font color=""Navy"">6th man:</font>
11.3 PPG | 48.3% FG | 44.4% 3PT
15.1 PPG | 46.9% FG | 43.8% 3PT

<font color=""Navy"">First option:</font>
21.7 PPG | 44.0% FG | 35.0% 3PT
23.0 PPG | 44.1% FG | 35.5% 3PT
24.6 PPG | 43.5% FG | 39.1% 3PT

Another example could be Manu last season who averaged the same PPG, but shot 39% FG and 31% 3PT when Duncan was injured. The higher up you're as an option on the team, it's more likely for your percentages to go down all around the board. When you're a #1 scoring option is when the difference is most notable though. This means you have to create yourself a lot more, but not just that, you're the one responsible for taking most of the forced breakdown of offense shots, and you're normally [unless you're a big like Shaq or even Duncan at times] the go to guy in crunch time.

 

<div class="quote_poster">Quoting og15:</div><div class="quote_post">Why is Joe Johnson's surprising? He went from being a #4 option [not #4 scorer] to being a #1 option. This year teams have their best defenders on him, and looking to stop him.</div>

I get your point about Q-Rich, but do you really think that JJ's fall off is acceptable? I think that he's capable of doing a lot better than he is doing this year (of course he's not motivated by $$ this year so maybe that's the problem).

He was scoring two points less as a fourth option than he is as a first option! There is no excuse for that, especially playing on a team that nobody takes seriously. I realize that the suns had a different style, but he should be doing much better than he is.