What Happen?

I don't really follow the GS Warriors due to the lack of TV time they can't and plus their in the West Coast(late night games) but secretly this is like one of my top 5 teams and basically the question is.... WHAT HAPPENED?

Last time I checked the Warriors were in the middle of the Western Conference which seemed as a secure playoff spot, Baron Davis averaging 10 APG, gurantee that the W's would make the Playoffs etc... Now when I look at the standing they are way on the bottom and are like 10 games under .500 and realistically looks like they will be heading back to the lottery. So what exactly happened? From what I know(not much) is that Richardson and Davis been pretty healthy for the most part. I think Dunleavy missed a couple games and I know about Murphy ankle problems, so is that the reason for the downfall or what?

The team is filleddddddd with talent but just doesn't seem to win or get over the hump. They somewhat remind me of the Knick with the talent aspect but not getting the job done. Does this fall on the coach shoulder?

 

<div class="quote_poster">Quoting Avery:</div><div class="quote_post">Does this fall on the coach shoulder?</div>

Yes and no. But we have to blame Mullin, cause he told us to

 

<div class="quote_poster">Quote:</div><div class="quote_post">Yes and no. But we have to blame Mullin, cause he told us to </div>

Ha, Sometimes the shortest posts make you laugh the hardest.

 

Yes, Avery, what did happen? That is a good question. I agree with you, the talent seems to be there.

As a fan of the team(though I missed the first two months of the season from being out of the country) I just see this team that depends too much on talent, and not enough on playing anytype of system to get everyone involved. The team has good players who for the most part have been productive in the big three of Baron/JRich/Murphy. It's just that the other players have been slumping big time and struggling such as Dunleavy and Foyle, and I believe that it's taken a long time since Montgomery had any faith in the bench, mostly due to their lack of experience as a group, I believe, also because he doesn't want to lose games thinking it's because rookies or young players were played too much.

A lot of problems lie on the coach and lack of unity between coach and players. I believe the Warriors have been out coached quite a few times. In the West you can't be poorly coached because there are just so many good coaches out here, just look at all of the coaches of the teams that are in front of the Warriors, they are all pretty good like Byron Scott, Phil Jackson, Rick Adleman, etc.

What hurts this team is that other players are finding it difficult to fill in and produce. Good teams usually can get their support players productive and going, which I think usually comes from good coaches or just very good PG's. Also a lack of defense, rebounding(though I think quite a bit of the rebounding problem could be because of the small lineups that Montgomery uses, where often Dunleavy would play more at PF than Ike Diiogu, which I think is wrong), a system where players will pass the ball, set off the ball screens, and try discecting offenses more, rather than the one pass and pop offense that they have been playing as of late where they just seem to get 10 seconds of dribbling or like one pass before they put up a jumper. Free throws have also hurt. And teams who are bad at rebounding, bad at free throws, and don't have faith in each other or faith in a system offensively, along with having holes defensively are causes for teams struggling to finish games out.

I think in general the problem is that their is too much reliance on talent, but not the stuff needed to play consistent and good basketball that gets everyone in positions to succeed. Adding this with other blunders, then I guess that is the problem with this team.

 

Long story short, we've got guys who cannot control the tempo defensively or offensively. We lack fundamentals. We settle for threes which we miss, we don't score inside, we break down mentally, we don't play individual defense, we don't move the ball because few guys score well or know how to run a team, we don't make good decisions on the break without Baron healthy, we don't rebound or box out well enough, we don't execute and play with smarts, we don't recover well getting back on defense, and every turnover we get seeems to allow the other team to score at a high% rate.

We just don't play good smart ball and weren't not balanced in terms of talent. Plus we've locked up guys who either don't get results done or they screw up the momentum on any type of running game we try to do when there's an opportunity to run. Fish, Foyle, Dunleavy are just .... echhh. Plus I'm not a fan of Murphy the way his offensive game and defensive game works. They don't balance each other out. Especially when your center has no inside game or hands to catch the ball either.

I'd rather go with a young core than a group of overpaid, locked up bench warmers starting. Anything that can give us the best chances of playing with quickness, heart, toughness, smartness, and skill both inside and out. Our slow, finesse guys don't even give us much impact because they don't affect offense or defense much. Do we have any Sam Cassells or any other slow poke guys on this team that can shoot as well as pass and make good decisions? This still ain't my ideal lineup but I'd rather have this.

Biedrins
Ike/Zarko
Jrich
Pietrus
Baron/Ellis

We'd have no shooting or ability to stay on the floor in terms of fouls, but damn at least our D might get better and our inside scoring game already gets better.

 

In short, Mullin put the wrong players together. And failed to get Darko! Man I wanted him, he's a better shot blocker than Foyle.

 

Well, I have always been against the age thing and having vets that know how to win. But I think I must use this reason for my argument. The Warriors have no players that have been taught how to win basketball games. That is the story of it, period. Mike Montgomery brings nothing to the table in terms of helping the team learn how to win basketball games in the NBA. He allows bad basketball games and as Doc Rivers said two months ago, the Warriors offense seems to be to take the early open shot, and really this strategy has not seemed to have changed even through this horrific streak.

Simply, Mike Montgomery and the Golden State Warriors is a terrible marriage.

In the NBA, talent and contracts don't mean too much on the court, though I know a lot of people disagree with me. In the NBA there is talent on every roster. If you aren't prepared and doing the things that need to be done and taken care of as a team and working together, then things are going to look bad, as we see now.

I mean I agree with the talent that is on the team like Avery posted. But obviously from CR2's posts it's just not working and showing on the court where it matters the most. Maybe it's a bad mix of players, but it's hard to say when there is not a strategy that is formed that is remotely close to making the Warriors players produce anywhere near their maximum capabilities.

 

<div class="quote_poster">Quoting AnimeFANatic:</div><div class="quote_post">In short, Mullin put the wrong players together. And failed to get Darko! Man I wanted him, he's a better shot blocker than Foyle.</div>

Mullin's explanation was that his staff didn't consider trading for Darko because we already have AB to develop. So he wouldn't mind getting a veteran center like Magloire, but felt he already had a prospect center in AB. Does that make sense?

If it does, I wish someone explain it to me . With Darko, 1) We'd have somebody else to put out there besides Foyle and 2) he or AB could always be traded later for a Magloire if we got Darko for someone like Fisher in trade.

 

I will tell you what happened. We missed too many FTs with guys who are decent shooters. Monty did not think it was a problem so he let it go. We could not rebound so Monty put in a small lineup. I guess he figured if we could not rebound with big guys in there, then we should have a bunch of small guys to beat the other team down the court. Then the little guys he put in were told not to run down the court because he wanted to execute Monty's half court offense. Which we should have known from last year to throw away the half court offense until we needed structure for an out of bounds play or when the offense has not gotten a good shot off for a few posessions. Our team is at its best when Baron is running the team, yet Monty did not let this happen...

 

<div class="quote_poster">Quoting jason voorhees:</div><div class="quote_post">Mullin's explanation was that his staff didn't consider trading for Darko because we already have AB to develop. So he wouldn't mind getting a veteran center like Magloire, but felt he already had a prospect center in AB. Does that make sense?

If it does, I wish someone explain it to me . With Darko, 1) We'd have somebody else to put out there besides Foyle and 2) he or AB could always be traded later for a Magloire if we got Darko for someone like Fisher in trade.</div>

Darko is most definately a 5 and way more skilled than Foyle already. Biedrins is between a 4 and 5 in that he lacks weight. I think having both of them on the court would increase inside toughness and rebounding. Also having not Foyle play would be AWESOME.

 

<div class="quote_poster">Quoting Warriorfansnc93:</div><div class="quote_post">I will tell you what happened. We missed too many FTs with guys who are decent shooters.</div> And guys are decent shooters when they historically miss free throws? We've got a lot of mid 70's to mid 60's % shooters at the line. Pro perimeter players are supposed to hit those and if they can't they are either mentally weak or not very good shooters. In our case = both.

<div class="quote_poster">Quoting Warriorfansnc93:</div><div class="quote_post">Monty did not think it was a problem so he let it go. We could not rebound so Monty put in a small lineup. I guess he figured if we could not rebound with big guys in there, then we should have a bunch of small guys to beat the other team down the court.
</div> I don't think that's the reason at all. We don't have very many good rebounders that can stay in the game. We got Foyle who averages like 5 rebounds a game. I think Kwame Brown averages more than him. The other thing besides lack of rebounding is we also lack dribble penetration from more than one perimeter position which is often why Dunleavy gets subbed in as PF, while Murphy gets subbed in as center. That IMO is the worst possible defensive lineup you can put in, but it just goes to show how thin we are at center and how thin we are at having a decent ballhandler than can beat a defender. Fisher sure as hell can't do it without risking a turnover and Jrich will probably dribble off his own foot. Dunleavy, despite sucking, is one of few guys that knows the plays and will beat PF's with his ballhandling skills without chucking a poor shot a la Fisher/Baron. Instead Dunleavy will brick the shot pretty much off the catch instead of off the dribble, but at least the ball will touch a few different hands before he ever does it. If he was a better shooter, they'd be easy points, but he's not.
<div class="quote_poster">Quoting Warriorfansnc93:</div><div class="quote_post">
Then the little guys he put in were told not to run down the court because he wanted to execute Monty's half court offense. Which we should have known from last year to throw away the half court offense until we needed structure for an out of bounds play or when the offense has not gotten a good shot off for a few posessions. Our team is at its best when Baron is running the team, yet Monty did not let this happen...</div>
Dude, were you even watching games? A lot of times when we ran out, it screwed up our defense/offense even more when the other team packed it in, dared us to shoot, and ran it back on us. Besides what does our team do when Baron can't run the break by himself? The Warriors start turning the ball over or launching bad shots or not passing the ball around. All those things make it real easy for the other team to go on runs against us.

If we don't have any other weapons to adjust to the current tempo or can't set the tempo how do we respond to what the other team is throwing at us night after night? We can't win. It's simple as that. We needed to have that balance on offense and defense and the inside/outside game or we're a pretty damn easy to team to figure out, don't you think? The nba isn't a pickupball game where we run like its shirts vs. skins.

I don't know about you, but this team needs structure in the worst possible way and not just when we need an inbounds play. We need a foundation of pure fundamentals, the physical talent at all 5 starting positions, and the mindset as a team. And I say that because the Warriors don't value their posessions to get good shots off in the first place and they don't have the quickness/strength to play defense by themselves, and they don't have the mindset to pass the ball and get their teammates involved. If we have no inside game, but yet we want to run more, then we need to shoot better, but if we can't then we need to do better at passing, setting screens, and off the ball movement based on plays designed for players to finish at the basket or score closer to the rim. Then we need to make stops on defense as well as get the rebound or what is the point of trading baskets with the other team when they are most likely the better free throw shooters, better scorers in the paint and better 2nd chance points rebounders? Our team is only at its best when Baron and others are actually moving the ball, the team is actually rebounding, the Warriors are playing the defense, and we're actually shooting the ball well. When Baron or others are not moving the ball, regardless of any reasons, it doesn't help the team. If anytime we're missing the elements which give us edge in games on the glass, on defense, at the line, or shooting from the field, we'll probably be at a disadvantage. But I'll have to say the worst combo for the Warriors has been the fact we shoot low fg%, we shoot low ft%, we don't move the ball, and we don't play defense or rebound the ball well.

No team has ever won without fundamentals and its been missing for the longest time in this franchise regardless of how talented these guys are pereceived as. We could argue all day about how Musselman told some of these guys to just run, it just isn't going to work in this conference because there are so many ways for teams to match and beat that. It's just not the right way to play and develop guys, unless we're trying to do it right like building a team of Kidd/Kittles/Kmart/RJ New Jersey Nets or the Steve Nash + ballhandling guard + Amare/Marion lineup or the Nuggets with Miller/Kmart/Camby/Melo. Last time I checked, our guards can't dribble well against pressure or shoot the ball well from just anywhere, and we lack good forwards that can score high% points in the paint, rebound, and play defense. Marion/Amare kicks Murphy/Dunleavy's butt any old day on both ends. Steve Nash/Diaw or Nash/Johnson are probably better than Baron or Jrich because they both shoot higher%'s, shoot free throws, dribble, and pass a lot better and make the forwards and other inside players a lot better. All those successful running teams had fundamentals and guys who understood what to do in crunch time.

In the Warriors case, the sum of the parts of the Warriors don't equal the whole. They just don't have what successful teams have and they have too many flaws to cover up with Dunleavy, Pietrus and other guys in some shooting funks or just bad decisions and clock management. Also Foyle, jeez, the guy gets the offensive rebound last night and he tries to do his Diogu impersonation when he can milk the clock by kicking it out to the point guard again. Unbelievable how dumb some of our vets are and Fish can be quite up there but only dumb in a different way.

 

<div class="quote_poster">Quoting Warriorfansnc93:</div><div class="quote_post">I will tell you what happened. We missed too many FTs with guys who are decent shooters. Monty did not think it was a problem so he let it go. We could not rebound so Monty put in a small lineup. I guess he figured if we could not rebound with big guys in there, then we should have a bunch of small guys to beat the other team down the court. Then the little guys he put in were told not to run down the court because he wanted to execute Monty's half court offense. Which we should have known from last year to throw away the half court offense until we needed structure for an out of bounds play or when the offense has not gotten a good shot off for a few posessions. Our team is at its best when Baron is running the team, yet Monty did not let this happen...</div>
<div class="quote_poster">Quoting custodianrules2:</div><div class="quote_post">

Dude, were you even watching games?</div>

He lives in Dallas so he can't.

 

<div class="quote_poster">Quoting Air Pietrus:</div><div class="quote_post">He lives in Dallas so he can't.</div>

Wow, I am getting called out by my own faithful fans? For the last few years that I have been stateside I have been living in/near a city where I could physically go to the games. A few years ago when I lived in Colorado Springs, I got in contact with Tim Roye and he and Jim Barnett took me down on the floor and introduced me to a few players and took pictures of me and my wife with Jrich, Dean Garrett, etc while they were doing their shoot around. I have met pretty much everyone who has played for the Warriors over the last few years and some who did not even play. I watched every game that was on national television or played the local team in CA. I also attended all of the local games physically and bumped into the players. I even attended the pre season game they played in Colorado Springs. You know the podunk cities they play in. Like this year they played in Montana and it was not televised? They all remembered me from different cities. Jim and Roye are old Air Force guys and that is why they hooked me up. I do not watch every game, but I watch every game I can and read as much as I can every game. I even sit out in my car to listen to Sirius satelite radio when it is freezing out side to listen to the games. Who wants to call me out?!

 

<div class="quote_poster">Quoting Warriorfansnc93:</div><div class="quote_post">Wow, I am getting called out by my own faithful fans? For the last few years that I have been stateside I have been living in/near a city where I could physically go to the games. A few years ago when I lived in Colorado Springs, I got in contact with Tim Roye and he and Jim Barnett took me down on the floor and introduced me to a few players and took pictures of me and my wife with Jrich, Dean Garrett, etc while they were doing their shoot around. I have met pretty much everyone who has played for the Warriors over the last few years and some who did not even play. I watched every game that was on national television or played the local team in CA. I also attended all of the local games physically and bumped into the players. I even attended the pre season game they played in Colorado Springs. You know the podunk cities they play in. Like this year they played in Montana and it was not televised? They all remembered me from different cities. Jim and Roye are old Air Force guys and that is why they hooked me up. I do not watch every game, but I watch every game I can and read as much as I can every game. I even sit out in my car to listen to Sirius satelite radio when it is freezing out side to listen to the games. Who wants to call me out?!</div>

I didn't call you out, I was trying to back you up. Sorry man.

 

<div class="quote_poster">Quoting Air Pietrus:</div><div class="quote_post">I didn't call you out, I was trying to back you up. Sorry man.</div>

No, I know you were. Sorry, about that...

 

Warriorsfansnc93, you are probably the most hardcore fan here, but I think in that zealousness, you side stepped the obvious holes the Warriors have right now. So I guess I'm calling you out, but I'm not trying to hate on you or get you pissed off at me. We're all friends here and I like you. What I'm saying is that what the Warriors are doing on the court right now, this year, last year, and all the years before wasn't a team. It was nothing more than a pickup game, 3-pointers that were going down against teams that didn't respect us, and good old, optimistic Barnett with stooge Fitzergrald, can't spill the honest truth about that because they work for the Warriors. Maybe they know a few things about the Warriors us fans don't know since they are on the inside, but the Warriors still don't play good high % basketball and that means making good passes, cycling the ball around inside and out, and taking good shots rather than running out of control and taking bad, low % shots.

You argument or observation was mostly aimed at the strategy that worked last year against teams that didn't worry about us. It didn't even mention once the ability to make adjustments going beyond that strategy to play an entire 82 game season this year. In other words, we cannot run unless we take care of the other end of the floor, we rebound better, and guys start hitting outside shots on the mark. We haven't done that this year which is why things led to roster changes.

Basketball in a way is like any other sports, it's about playing the strategy that is going to give you a high % chance of success at something while preventing the other team's chances at success. Now look at the shots we settle for, look at the way we play defense, look at the locked up contract players that have to be played like they are a part of the future. We could probably play any style with the core of Jrich/Baron/Ike/Bieddrins type players if we had better role player talent surround that core. Right now we don't and it's that lack of fundamentals and the mental game that kills the warriors chances to win very winnable games. Nobody here might have played professional or college basketball, but when you play with a team it works. If you don't have a team it doesn't work. When we gain the fundamentals of basketball, we can be a team, and when we can be a team that's when we can start talking playoffs.

 

<div class="quote_poster">Quoting custodianrules2:</div><div class="quote_post">What I'm saying is that what the Warriors are doing on the court right now, this year, last year, and all the years before wasn't a team. It was nothing more than a pickup game.</div>

I've read articles in which Monty (in an interview) would say he lets the Warriors play a freestyle game and lets them play alone, until they needed help from the coaching staff. Perhaps you read this as well. I for one disagree with his style of coaching as it seems detrimental to a team growth if he lets players do whatever they want, even if it's in the beginning of the game then come in and tell them what to do when things get ugly. I can't find the article, but trust me that he said it. Monty needs to add structure and an identity to the Warriors, a system in which the players play a certain way the entire game. I don't feel he has done a good job in doing that.

 

<div class="quote_poster">Quoting AnimeFANatic:</div><div class="quote_post">I've read articles in which Monty (in an interview) would say he lets the Warriors play a freestyle game and lets them play alone, until they needed help from the coaching staff. Perhaps you read this as well. I for one disagree with his style of coaching as it seems detrimental to a team growth if he lets players do whatever they want, even if it's in the beginning of the game then come in and tell them what to do when things get ugly. I can't find the article, but trust me that he said it. Monty needs to add structure and an identity to the Warriors, a system in which the players play a certain way the entire game. I don't feel he has done a good job in doing that.</div>

There is no structure and identity to the Warriors, though. There never has been unless you count less than half of an 82 game season and all the other seasons we beat teams that knew we were out of the playoff race. I don't want to type another novel pointing out all the flaws on this team and why bringing in any coach doesn't help unless the foundation is there to begin with. Otherwise what is the point, they'll just be doing what Musselman was doing and what Monty did when guys weren't doing the plays. This team has weak fundamentals just like every other team since Cowens, Winters, etc, etc... I don't know why it's not obvious to some. We're just like the Knicks only not as severe. Fundamentals. It's like telling a bunch of guys to do their job, but each wants to do it his own way and it just doesn't work for everyone else all together.