<div class="quote_poster">Quoting NTC187:</div><div class="quote_post">And I agree with that 100%, the stats dont lie, Yao has been very good, very consistant <u>lately</u>, and <u>right now</u> (at this current state of time) he is probally the best centre in the league, but <u>overall</u> he is not.</div> Well I believe the title of the thread is "Can we agree that Yao is now the best Center in the league? " As of now he is. Lately Yao is obviously a better center than Shaq simply because of his late extraordinary performance. We will have to wait until the season is over before we can say who the best center is this season. But what do I know I'm just a biased Rockets fan who only watches Bucks games.
<div class="quote_poster">Quoting AirJordan:</div><div class="quote_post">Shaq > Yao when Shaq is in the league Yao > Shaq when Shaq retires</div> AMARE>Yao>Shaq when Shaq retires Yao will never be the most dominant center. Yao puts up stats but he plays smaller than he is. With amare in the league (hopefully coming off healthy from surgery) Yao will never be the best center. (unless you consider STAT a PF because after Shaq retires Yao will be the only "true" center in the league)
Rockets announcers said that Rod Thorn considers Yao to be the best center in the game. I think Yao is the best all around offensive center in the league. Defensively, he's a pretty good post defender and he clogs up the lane well, but he's a liability contesting face up jump shooters away from the basket. But at least he makes an effort to do so, unlike Shaq. As far as rebounding, I'd say he's pretty good given some of his physical deficiencies (slow reflexes, short arms, not agile at all). Yao works hard, he's constantly improving, and he's a selfless, team-oriented player. It's difficult not to like the guy, so I'm surprised so many people seem to have a grudge against him. Wilt Chamberlain said it best, "Nobody roots for Goliath."
Attention Yao Haters!!! Im tired of hearing people talk crap about yao. That he is not as good as shaq. That he is not this and that. So, instead of talking crap, maybe people can use some statistical information and add it to their knowledge. PLAYER NAME EFF 1 Kevin Garnett 29.86 2 Elton Brand 29.56 3 Shawn Marion 28.92 4 LeBron James 28.84 5 Dwyane Wade 27.95 6 Kobe Bryant 27.5 7 Allen Iverson 26.5 8 Dirk Nowitzki 26.32 9 Paul Pierce 25.44 10 Chris Bosh 24.7 11 Steve Nash 24.67 12 Ming Yao 24.12 13 Gilbert Arenas 23.58 14 Marcus Camby 23.45 15 Tim Duncan 23.37 16 Pau Gasol 23.16 17 Jason Kidd 22.48 18 Jermaine O'Neal 22.06 19 Chris Paul , NOK 21.48 20 Chauncey Billups 21.34 21 Richard Jefferson 21.29 22 Chris Webber 21.08 23 Ray Allen 21.02 24 Carmelo Anthony 21.02 25 Vince Carter 20.88 26 Tracy McGrady 20.68 27 Brad Miller 20.67 28 Dwight Howard 20.66 29 Andrei Kirilenko 20.53 30 Lamar Odom 20.48 31 Shaquille O'Neal 20.48 Let me guess, Shaq-Lovers think i made this up and are ticked off at me? Well, I have proof. Here ya go! http://www.nba.com/statistics/player/Efficiency.jsp Look at where Yao is, and where Shaq is. Yao is the first center on the list, which makes him overall the best center in the league. Yao is over 20/10. Shaq is under that. Shaq is just too dominant under the goal, but Yao has a shot and dominant under the goal. Yao can shoot free throws, unlike Shaq (for people who didn't realize... ) ... Yao is on a free-throw shooting streak which was upto 25 in 2 games. And Yao has shot 15-17 in the game against the Nets.
<div class="quote_poster">Quoting Umair15:</div><div class="quote_post"> Look at where Yao is, and where Shaq is. Yao is the first center on the list, which makes him overall the best center in the league. Yao is over 20/10. Shaq is under that. Shaq is just too dominant under the goal, but Yao has a shot and dominant under the goal. Yao can shoot free throws, unlike Shaq (for people who didn't realize... ) ... Yao is on a free-throw shooting streak which was upto 25 in 2 games. And Yao has shot 15-17 in the game against the Nets.</div> One other thing to keep in mind. Shaq has more impact on the court that isn't registered on the stat sheet, compared to Yao. I don't think Yao is quite as good as his stats show (still, he's very good overall), and Shaq is arguably better than his stats show.
<div class="quote_poster">Quoting gosunsgo:</div><div class="quote_post">AMARE>Yao>Shaq when Shaq retires Yao will never be the most dominant center. Yao puts up stats but he plays smaller than he is. With amare in the league (hopefully coming off healthy from surgery) Yao will never be the best center. (unless you consider STAT a PF because after Shaq retires Yao will be the only "true" center in the league)</div> i LIKE BOTH YAO AND AMARE, THEY ARE THE FUTURE OF THE NBA, BUT YAO IS SOOO SOFT SO WEAK WITH THOSE FINGER ROLLS AND LAYUPS WHEN HE COULDA DUNKED, AMARE IS FEARLESS, ANY CHANCE HE THINKS HE CAN DUNK IT HE WILL DUNK IT, amare is waaaaaaaaaay more exiciting to watch, but yao is great too
<div class="quote_poster">Quoting NYCfinest123:</div><div class="quote_post">i LIKE BOTH YAO AND AMARE, THEY ARE THE FUTURE OF THE NBA, BUT YAO IS SOOO SOFT SO WEAK WITH THOSE FINGER ROLLS AND LAYUPS WHEN HE COULDA DUNKED, AMARE IS FEARLESS, ANY CHANCE HE THINKS HE CAN DUNK IT HE WILL DUNK IT, amare is waaaaaaaaaay more exiciting to watch, but yao is great too</div> Are you seriously comparing Yao's atleticism to Amare's? Yao is 7'6" that's like the equivalent weighing 400 pounds, you don't have the atleticism of someone who's only 6'10". That's like saying an offensive lineman should have the speed of a runningback. I'm tired of people expecting Yao to move like he's 6'6". Do you have any idea how dificult it must be just being 7'6" tall? I saw on this talkshow, they brought out this guy who was also 7'6" he could barely walk he needed like a cane. Look at all the other giants: bol, muresan, bradley even Smits. almost none of them could move like yao does. He deserves some credit for that.
<div class="quote_poster">Quoting AznxBaller:</div><div class="quote_post"> Here's Yao Ming's numbers- 21.4 PPG, 10.1 RPG, 1.4 APG, .511 FG%, .832 FT%, 1.68 BPG, 2.34 TOs, 34.0 MPG. Here's Shaq's numbers- 20.1 PPG, 9.3 RPG, 1.6 APG, .588 FG%, .463 FT%, 1.69 BPG, 2.64 TOs, 30.2 MPG. adjusted to equal Yao's minutes 22.5PPG 10.46RPG 1.8 APG .588 FG% .46 FT% 1.9 BPG 2.9 TO's I think Yao has surpassed Shaq. He's averaging more points, more rebounds, slightly less assists, the same amount of blocks (.01 isn't much of a difference), less turnovers while playing even more minutes. If you compare Miller and Yao, its not even a contest. Beats Miller in points, rebounds, field goal percentage, blocks, and turnovers. The only reason why Yao doesn't get that much assists is because Miller is employed in the high post as a passing big man by Adelman while Yao is camped down low to post up. Camby's closer, but Yao is a much more well rounded player than him. He's more refined offensively, and there's no doubt he's going to alter shots being put up around him.</div> The bold shows the catagories the player is statistically better at. So Shaq wins...even at his age...even on a better team, even facing more defensive pressure than Yao. Plus he makes everyone around him better because he changes the way the defence HAS to play the game. Yao doenst do that....there are SOME changes to the gameplan but you dont have to design your game around Yao like you do Shaq. Shaq makes scrubs look good. Yao only just recently started making HIMSELF look good. <div class="quote_poster">Quoting shapecity:</div><div class="quote_post">Exactly. Yao Ming has continued to develop into the player everyone expects him to be. He's become a force on both ends of the court, and the question now is ... can he do this consistently? I'm going to say yes he can, and will be even better next season. And as a friendly reminder, Yao is still only 25 years old. I like comparing his progress to Kevin Garnett's. <u>Year 1</u> KG :: 10.4 PPG 6.3 RPG 1.6 BPG Yao :: 13.5 PPG 8.2 RPG 1.8 BPG <u>Year 2</u> KG :: 17.0 PPG 8.1 RPG 2.1 BPG Yao :: 17.5 PPG 9.0 RPG 1.9 BPG <u>Year 3</u> KG :: 18.5 PPG 9.6 RPG 1.8 BPG Yao :: 18.3 PPG 8.4 RPG 2.0 BPG <u>Year 4</u> KG :: 20.8 PPG 10.4 RPG 1.8 BPG Yao :: 21.4 PPG 10.0 RPG 1.7 BPG</div> interesting stats. But i have to point out incase it hasnt been already mentioned that in KG's year 1 he was 19 and 20, in Yao's year #1 he was 22-23. So basically we should be comparing KG's 3rd 4th and 5th years with Yao's 1st 2nd and 3rd. Interesting though for sure. I still enjoy comparing Bosh's stats to those of Garnetts....makes me excited about what Toronto's got in thier future [red]Please use the 'edit' feature to add on to a previous post. Thanks ~Locke[/red]
<div class="quote_poster">Quoting 02civic:</div><div class="quote_post">The bold shows the catagories the player is statistically better at. So Shaq wins...even at his age...even on a better team, even facing more defensive pressure than Yao. ... </div> You're assuming every statistical category has equal value, though. Look at their Player Efficiency Rating (composite stat which adjusts for minutes and team pace) and Yao and Shaq are virtually identical (according to ESPN, Yao has 25.0 and Shaq has 24.6). Shaq gets slightly more points, rebounds, and assists per minute, but he also has been a bit more turnover prone and not quite as efficient scoring the ball overall (because of free throw shooting). Yao's "true shooting%" is 58.0 while Shaq's is 57.5. In terms of box score stats, they're pretty much at the same level. But I agree with the rest of your post.
I dont know i dont think SHAQ wouldve allowed a facial by finley and a crossover to facial by manu two plays later.
<div class="quote_poster">Quoting TimmyDMVP:</div><div class="quote_post">I dont know i dont think SHAQ wouldve allowed a facial by finley and a crossover to facial by manu two plays later.</div> You're right. He wouldn't have bothered going for the block. Should a defender be embarassed if he gets a hand up in a shooters face but the shooter still drops the J? Is that worse than not even contesting the shot and the guy easily shooting it over him? Also, it isn't exactly a facial when the guy attempting the block was a about a foot away from the dunker. Yao wasn't even close to blocking Finley and he clearly wasn't in his path, so I don't see how that could be described as "Finley dunking on Yao."
Yao has been more consistent this year, which is what everyone's been looking for from him. However, he is not the dominant, dynamic force that Shaq or Amare are on offense or Big Ben is on defense. He's got a ways to go, but every day that he stays consistent is another big step in the right direction. Maybe next year the Rockets will have a better run of health early on and Yao will really break through, but until now there are still a couple of guys ahead of him.
<div class="quote_poster">Quoting Umair15:</div><div class="quote_post"> PLAYER NAME EFF 1 Kevin Garnett 29.86 2 Elton Brand 29.56 3 Shawn Marion 28.92 4 LeBron James 28.84 5 Dwyane Wade 27.95 6 Kobe Bryant 27.5 7 Allen Iverson 26.5 8 Dirk Nowitzki 26.32 9 Paul Pierce 25.44 10 Chris Bosh 24.7 11 Steve Nash 24.67 12 Ming Yao 24.12 13 Gilbert Arenas 23.58 14 Marcus Camby 23.45 15 Tim Duncan 23.37 16 Pau Gasol 23.16 17 Jason Kidd 22.48 18 Jermaine O'Neal 22.06 19 Chris Paul , NOK 21.48 20 Chauncey Billups 21.34 21 Richard Jefferson 21.29 22 Chris Webber 21.08 23 Ray Allen 21.02 24 Carmelo Anthony 21.02 25 Vince Carter 20.88 26 Tracy McGrady 20.68 27 Brad Miller 20.67 28 Dwight Howard 20.66 29 Andrei Kirilenko 20.53 30 Lamar Odom 20.48 31 Shaquille O'Neal 20.48 </div> I don't know if you actually belive in this or your just being ignorant, but judging a players greatness off of a Player Efficency List isn't the most accurate way to do so. How many people in this thread actually think Brad Miller is better than Shaq? How about Lamar Odom who got traded for Shaq along with other players and LA dropped 20 games? Chris Webber better than Shaq? I watch a lot of Sixers game and Chris Webber is lazy on defense and shoots mid range jumpers like theres no tomorrow. I don't want to write an essay here about this. I also just noticed that according to that list Yao is better than Tim Duncan?
<div class="quote_poster">Quoting Diesel:</div><div class="quote_post"> I also just noticed that according to that list Yao is better than Tim Duncan? </div> This year for sure, tim duncan has been playing pretty bad this season because of his foot, yao has better numbers than him. Td's like 19 and 9 now.
<div class="quote_poster">Quoting Diesel:</div><div class="quote_post">I don't know if you actually belive in this or your just being ignorant, but judging a players greatness off of a Player Efficency List isn't the most accurate way to do so. </div> I agree. Further, the NBA.com efficiency formula is kind of lame. PER is better, and it shows that Yao and Shaq are almost the same (Yao slightly ahead). But even PER is not the be all, end all. Ben Wallace is a top center because of his abilities on the defensive end, and good defensive players are almost always underrated by these kind of stats.
<div class="quote_poster">Quoting Bobcats:</div><div class="quote_post">Yes.</div> Make that two of us. <div class="quote_poster">Quoting og15:</div><div class="quote_post">Last 5 games: 28.6 PPG | 11.6 RPG | 1.6 APG | 1.8 TPG | 3.0 BPG | 53% FG | 37.2 MPG I don't know how you can argue against that, he's easily making a case. I think Shaq is still up there with him, and has some things that could give him and edge but Yao can easily be argued. Shaq last 5: 22.4 PPG | 11.0 RPG | 2.4 APG | 3 TPG | 2.2 BPG | 61.1% FG | 35.0 MPG</div> That post really makes no argument either way. You have Yao averaging a little over 6 a game (in the last 5 games) but the same amount of boards, less assists, a much lower field goal percentage and more minutes. They're fairly similar, actually.
<div class="quote_poster">Quoting H.ayes:</div><div class="quote_post"> That post really makes no argument either way. You have Yao averaging a little over 6 a game (in the last 5 games) but the same amount of boards, less assists, a much lower field goal percentage and more minutes. They're fairly similar, actually.</div> If you're going to talk about field goal percentage, you of course have to mention free throw shooting. Overall the last 6 games, Yao has actually been a MORE efficient scorer that Shaq. And for the season as well. Best way to measure scoring efficiency is not field goal % stat, but rather the True Shooting% (TS%) stat: TS% = (1/2)*(points) / (fga + .44*fta) On the season, Yao is at 58.0 TS%, while Shaq is 57.5 TS%. Over their last 6 games: Yao: 119 fga, 67 fta, 182 points, 61.3 TS% Shaq: 86 fga, 63 fta, 130 points, 57.2 TS% Yes, free throws make a difference.
<div class="quote_poster">Quoting H.ayes:</div><div class="quote_post">Make that two of us. That post really makes no argument either way. You have Yao averaging a little over 6 a game (in the last 5 games) but the same amount of boards, less assists, a much lower field goal percentage and more minutes. They're fairly similar, actually.</div> Them being very close was the point I was trying to make. Yao is right there with Shaq this season in production, and he could be argued as the best C this year. Also the minutes only makes a difference in RPG, Yao is still up in PPG, BPG, is a more efficient scorer, since hitting 84%+ of your FT's to <50% makes up for the FG% difference, and he's been going to the line about 11 times a game lately. He also turns the ball over a lot less even when relating to assists handed out. Yao's new last 5: 32.2 PPG | 11 RPG | 1.6 APG | 1.2 TPG | 2.8 BPG | 12.8 FTA/G | 52% FG | 37.6 MPG <font color=""Navy"">Last 10:</font> 28.2 PPG | 12.7 RPG | 1.8 APG | 1.7 TPG | 2.3 BPG | 10.4 FTA/G | 51.6% FG | 37.4 MPG <div class="quote_poster">Quote:</div><div class="quote_post">The bold shows the catagories the player is statistically better at. So Shaq wins...even at his age...even on a better team, even facing more defensive pressure than Yao. Plus he makes everyone around him better because he changes the way the defence HAS to play the game. Yao doenst do that....there are SOME changes to the gameplan but you dont have to design your game around Yao like you do Shaq. Shaq makes scrubs look good. Yao only just recently started making HIMSELF look good.</div> I think defensive pressure is a wash, and Yao might even be getting more right now. Teams have to plan around Wade when playing the Heat, not just Shaq. Yao is getting double and triple teams in games, but he's learnt to play well against it now. He's able to find ways to score, and is keeping turnovers to a minimum, and that's an understatement. You have to remember that there's no Tmac now, outside of Tmac, their's no other primary scorer on that team, even Welsey is down, so who will teams plan around, Rafer? Juwan Howard? Dwight Howard get's doubled and once in a while tripled when he's playing, even the Pistons doubled him, so of course Yao will get even more pressure than that. Yao is also winning right now, he had 25-10 against the Spurs, they beat Minny and Indy without Tmac, so it's not like he's just putting up numbers beause the team sucks. I don't get the argument of Shaq making others better as if Yao is not doing the same. The defense does have to design their game against Yao, and they do plan their game to stop him, why wouldn't they when their's no Tmac, and he's putting up close to 30 points every game lately? Actually over 30 points. Shaq does not "make scrubs look good", Shaq opens up the court for other guys, but no one makes scrubs look good. Mark Madsen won't look good offenisvely no matter who he plays with. Milt Palacio won't hit jumpshots whether he's playing with Shaq, or Yao ming. Those are scrubs, Miami doesn't really have any scrubs that play substantial minutes. Also I think people sometimes underatte Yao's defensive impact because he get's dunked on. Like durvasa has said, is it better to get dunked on or to just not challenge the shot? Alonzo Mourning has gotten dunked on as much as the next guy, but also is a mean shot blocking machine. Defensively Yao causes so many problems because when a player get's near the basket, and doesn't know where Yao is, they get tentative. You see guys getting stuck and wasting clock, throwing up stupid shots, or being forced into travels because Yao is there. Now, I'm not even a Yao fan, I like Shaq, but I think people are too quick to dismiss Yao because they're used to just saying he's soft, and is overatted. Yao has been playing well, and is putting himself at the best C in the league range, if he continues like this for the rest of the year, he has a great argument for himself.
