<div class="quote_poster">Quote:</div><div class="quote_post">OAKLAND - Rookie forward Ike Diogu seemed the perfect fit for the Warriors. No question he can maneuver in the paint, and the Warriors have craved a low-post scorer since Chris Webber was traded in 1994. Still, members of the organization talk as if the Warriors still need an inside presence. Still, players take jumpers when situations call for a high-percentage look. Didn't the Warriors draft their solution when they selected Diogu out of Arizona State with the No. 9 overall pick in June? The answer is yes and no. "He's got some things that people like, that we like, and you see those things," Warriors coach Mike Montgomery said. "But there are some other things that he needs to get better at that are maybe not as obvious." The answer is yes because Diogu has the foundation of an effective inside scorer. He's drawn comparisons to Los Angeles Clippers' MVP candidate Elton Brand and can put up big numbers against Detroit's Ben Wallace and Rasheed Wallace and Minnesota's Kevin Garnett -- three of the game's best low-post defenders. "Ike is a wonderful low-post player," Warriors starting center Adonal Foyle said. Any Warriors big man will tell you he doesn't get the ball enough. Entering tonight's home game against Sacramento, Diogu, Foyle and forward/center Andris Biedrins have combined to shoot 55.5 percent on 649 field goals attempted. Some perspective: Guard Jason Richardson has missed 707 attempts. Of the three inside players, Diogu is clearly the best at creating offense. But Montgomery said Diogu's defensive struggles and lack of rebounding make it hard to keep him on the court -- thus Diogu's 13.8 minutes are the least of the three. Which is why the answer is also no. Diogu, and the coaching staff, have much more work to do. With a limited player, the key is finding a way to maximize his strengths while minimizing his weaknesses. The difficulty of that increases with a roster full of limited players. Hence, Diogu needs to improve his overall game so his shortcomings won't negate his production. And the staff needs to do a better job of taking advantage of his low-post scoring skills. "It's clearly been one of my biggest challenges," Montgomery said. "If a guy can't play defense, where do you hide him? ... One of the things that's evident is that to play in this league, you do have to have a skill. Can you shoot it? Are you a rebounder? Are you a defender? What are you, a handler, a penetrator? ... Your one trick has to be good, but you have to have the other stuff intact. You don't have to be a great defender, a great rebounder, but he's got to hold his own." With Diogu's rookie season 12 games from completion, there are still as many questions as answers. Will Diogu, an undersized 6-foot-8 and 225 pounds, ever be able to hold his own on defense? Will Diogu -- whom Montgomery calls a "gather leaper," meaning he needs to generate momentum before jumping -- ever be able to compete on the boards against longer, quicker big men? Will the coaches ever figure out how to utilize Diogu's skills without sacrificing defense and chemistry? Diogu says the answer is yes. "I have my low-post game down," Diogu said. "I don't think there are too many people who can question what I can do on the low block because I've shown that in games this year. ... I've just got to do it on a more consistent basis. That's going to come with time."</div> Source
Diogu can take his time. He's had a rough time this year trying to play center. I think he does a lot of nice things, but he gets burned quite a bit when playing this crazy style of defense that Monty uses. He's not Ben Wallace athletic, but he's probably just as strong. When Monty's not having to play ridiculous zone type defense (which he never used in college for a major reason) to "hide" guys like Dunleavy, Fisher, Richardson and Murphy's poor individual D, I think Ike can stay with his power forward assignment and guard with his strength. He's not a perimeter defender that's for sure, but he definitely blocks a lot more shots and tries to defend the rim better than Murphy. And ultimately the guy who blocks shots will force the other guy to miss a lot more because the shooter will think about it and try to make adjustments or take more shots further from the rim. Murphy doesn't do that. He just gets out of the way on those smaller players and hopes Foyle or Jrich will bail him out. Jrich even averages more blocks at the rim than Murphy, I think. That's more presence than softy right there. Diogu's offense game I really dig. It's been a while since we've had a true low post player that can also pass (passing is very important because he can faciliate offense from the inside out). He's basically got everything you like about his game, except for maybe size and athleticism. but he'll knock guys to the ground and be a rugged enforcer. He can catch alley-oops or play below the rim. Not the most athletic or tallest guy on the floor, but hey, just as long as he plays big and gets better with time. He's just a rookie. Big 'in-the-paint' type dudes take a while before they reach their prime, but he's got the tools, footwork, and a nice wide frame to replicate his efforts against guys like Sheed and Kevin Garnett. I mean how many raw players in the nba actually have good footwork and get better? Not many so I'm glad we have a guy that knows how to do this style of game without having to really learn a whole lot. Even young players like Yao had the fundamentals before coming into the league and that's why the base skills are important because players might not be able to add more things to their repotoire. Now hopefully Ike will be a guy who can a little bit more than a role player.... otherwise I'll be pissed if Gerald Green or Danny Granger turn into the next T-macs or athletic version of Joe Johnson. I would love to see Diogu rebound the ball better. He's was a league leading double double guy with blocked shots in the Pac-10, which is a good conference. Maybe Diogu needs to be more assertive on the glass and stop boxing out for others and just grab it. His jump also needs to have better timing and more quickness as the article pointed out. Power forward can be a "quiet numbers" type of position like the way Tim Duncan plays quietly but with interior presence (he's a perfect cross between center and forward), but you ideally want the small forward to be a scoring machine that can be at the center of most plays. We've got it backwards since Dunleavy tries to do the guard work, while Jrich does the small forward work. The problem is Troy Murphy the power forward plays too much like a small forward as well, and the small forward Dunleavy isn't good. I crap on Murphy quite a bit, but there's always a role for a guy that can rebound and shoot. Just not as a starter.
I agree with you Custodian, Ike is struggling with rebounding, defense, and even offense at times but he'll get better. Right now I think he doesn't know what he can and can't do against NBA competition. Missing training camp probably hindered him because at the NBA level hes got to learn how to create space and hes not going to be able to shoot over guys as easily as in college. Once Diogu gets some respect form officials and learns what his limitations as well as how to adjust in the NBA I think he'll be a good low post scorer and a solid rebounder similar to Zach Randolph.
<div class="quote_poster">Quoting Run BJM:</div><div class="quote_post">I agree with you Custodian, Ike is struggling with rebounding, defense, and even offense at times but he'll get better. Right now I think he doesn't know what he can and can't do against NBA competition. Missing training camp probably hindered him because at the NBA level hes got to learn how to create space and hes not going to be able to shoot over guys as easily as in college. Once Diogu gets some respect form officials and learns what his limitations as well as how to adjust in the NBA I think he'll be a good low post scorer and a solid rebounder similar to Zach Randolph.</div> Good thinking, Run. The summer league injury was a quite a big deal because he missed a lot of team practice. Then the referee whistle is a big deal because he never gets consistent calls. Sometimes they call him for offensive fouls or sometimes they don't call fouls when the player is doing something to him. Well, that has to change over time. I think we can do a lot of damage with a group of guys that can shoot, drive, and that can get him the ball. Then Ike has to do the same for the guards. One hand washes the other type of chemistry. Now if Ike was putting up Amare Stoudamire type numbers and Nash was our point guard, we wouldn't need to worry about the ball passing that many times unless its between Joe Johnson and Nash or Nash and Boris Diaw or some form of secondary ballhandler/playmaker. The warriors have almost no playmakers.
We definitely need more guys who are willing to give him the ball. And he does need to make it more of a priority to look for others as well but I can understand why he would force up bad shots whenever he gets the ball since he only gets it a few times a game. Ike has shown good passing ability when guys cut to the hoop and when hes looking for them, he could be a very solid weapon off the bench if he gets consistent touches.
Ike could also be a power and finesse guy (to some extent) like Jrich is. I'm just so sick of these softies on our team that have no power to their game in the paint. I just want to see more guys put a body on people, bang around a little, use strength more and defend the rim. We've got guys who only play physical half the time and not in the way you need it most. Murphy is one of those guys that I think is tough and can be a badass type player on the glass and defending slower power forward assignments, but damn he is so soft on help defense or finishing against smaller players. I think the only reasons guys not much better on D like Jrich or Ike would get free passes is because they do more. Jrich is a star player, he initiates/creates more direct assists when he has the ball, he blocks shots at the rim when nobody else is doing it. That's more or less the things you want from a shooting guard/small forward player. Then Ike just has promise as a prototype power forward that can intiate some plays, do the dirty work, and score. Like if Ike ever repeated 20/10 with blocked shots against KG or Sheed + nice passing performances/boxouts in the paint, it pretty much makes up for this void we have at power forward and center positions where we don't create a whole lot there. Our center/forward tandem on defense pretty much combines for a weak scoring effort inside, poor rebounding, poor ball movement, poor blocked shots. Maybe Biedrins/Taft + Ike is the way to go role player wise to help in those departments, but we need evidence of a good inside scorer and not some project still developing. Let's also hope Biedrins can improve his free throw shooting %'s like to at least 60% because no defense will allow him to get easy dunks if they can foul him first.
One reason why I think Diogu has struggled at times is because he comes in to play center and is the only "big" guy on the court at the time. How can you expect him to succeed when he is smaller than most team's centers, power forwards and some teams small forwards?! That blame goes to Monty. He has to put Diogu in a position where he can succeed. Thats like playing Dunleavy at the PF position and yanking him because he can not bang with the PFs around the league. That is not his natural position. Play him at the 4 and Biedrens at the 5. That is where they belong.
<div class="quote_poster">Quoting Warriorfansnc93:</div><div class="quote_post">One reason why I think Diogu has struggled at times is because he comes in to play center and is the only "big" guy on the court at the time. How can you expect him to succeed when he is smaller than most team's centers, power forwards and some teams small forwards?! That blame goes to Monty. He has to put Diogu in a position where he can succeed. Thats like playing Dunleavy at the PF position and yanking him because he can not bang with the PFs around the league. That is not his natural position. Play him at the 4 and Biedrens at the 5. That is where they belong.</div> Blame the GM too. Who else is going to play center? Our centers either suck or they can't stay on the floor long. One thing is for sure: both center and power foward need to play like the enforcers of the paint. The depth for centers on this team is horrible. Not even sure Biedrins is a center, but he can't stay on the floor long at all.
After the game against the Pistons it was easy to think it was all uphill from there. Well, I forgot about hitting the rookie "wall" and how playing time and other teammates affects Ike's performance. I give him credit for being patient, not complaining, and playing hard. I think Ike is one of our most untouchable parts and look forward to him and Biedris anchoring our team for a long time. Ellis is a combo guard, not quite PG, not quite SG. But love his quiet demeanor and lightening quick speed.
I think so many people are upset with Fisher and enthralled with Ellis' quickness and athleticism, they want to throw him in right away. This team does need dribble penetration in the worst way in order to create something, but damn who can run a team on the floor like a coach would? Most coaches are guys who have played point guard or are a student of basketball like Larry Bird or Oscar Robertson. I wouldn't force a high school guy to do that so quickly when he's still learning. He's going to be a star though under the right conditions. I just hope more playing time and continued losing isn't going to affect his development. We need to win and get a strong foundation first before we throw in guys to just fail. Look at Jrich... I just hope he doesn't quit on this team because we don't have the right pieces around him. So Ike, Biedrins, Ellis, Taft. I hope we don't set them up to fail. I hope we play all the guys' contracts and bring the rookies in when they are ready. Fans can't tell if they are ready. Hell, we assumed Pietrus was with his points per minute production, but he doesn't fit what the team is trying to do in a five on five game.
As a PG who has played there my whole life I believe its more important for PG to get others their shots rather than score which is why I crack down on Fisher so much, he's more inclined to look for his shot than get others involved. As a PG, you have the ball already, if you shoot no one else gets to touch the ball and are then less likely to play D and rebound. In the last 10 years, the NBA has gone to the Marbury/Francis scoring PG rather than the Nash/Kidd model which is a shame. Thus there's less team ball and more 1 on 1. Baron is kind of both but more scoring than distributor. You cannot just "make" a PG like Ellis. He's a scorer, not a distributor.
I totally agree with you Philsmith, I have also been a point guard my whole life and it really puzzles me how Fisher could have played there his whole career and be so selfish and stupid. I really admire Baron for his ability to score as well as be a pure PG, if his potential can ever be tapped he'd be an absolute beast, which in turn is why I don't like Monty because he'll never get through to the players. Baron may never be controlled but I think he'd listen to a guy like Paul Silas alot more than he will Monty. As for Ellis, hes not necessarily a pure PG but once he gets a stronger handle and some more experience I think he could easily play PG in the NBA. Ellis could be a PG like Jason Terry, Maurice Williams, Gilbert Arenas, A.I. (when he plays point), or Mike James. None of those guys are pure PGs but they are definitely capable of playing point guard. Ellis has better court vision and passing skills than were advertised when we drafted him, hes surprised me in those areas and while hes not your prototypical pure PG like Nash, Kidd, etc. he can be a successful PG in the NBA. Look at the last few championship teams, none had a "pure" PG; Billups (though LB changed him, he wasn't naturally a pure PG), Tony Parker, Derek Fisher, etc.
I'm not excusing Fisher by any means, but we don't have the consistent shooters to pass the ball to. Our shooting is below average in all the shooting categories. We need better perimeter and inside shooting. We've seen this behavior with Baron and Dun. It's not just selfishness imo.
Fisher is getting us solid numbers, but damn if a point guard can't run a fastbreak even once in a while then he shouldn't be playing point guard. Who on the roster can run a fastbreak or keep up? Our best strength is our backcourt and yet its so flawed... especially when you consider Fisher is the team's best free throw shooter and he's not really automatic as guys like Ray Allen, Nash, Peja, Billups, etc, real guys you consider awesomely good shooters. In fact anybody who doesn't shoot 80% per clip, especially as a smaller player, just isn't a good shooter.
As a PG Fish is walk it up,dribble,let the D pack the pait come to a dead stop then play catch with Dun on the perimeter until one bricks a long J. Plan B, Dun's covered and Fish drives with a slim chance at a FG but some hope of FT's. AS-is,Monta sees the floor on the go,in the flow and clearly wants to hit that open man. I could give a crap if he knows variant D of the Montyball offense...that has not worked once since December. Ellis has the instincts,he can see and can deliver and his superior quicks are a plus in all areas. Fish is the ultimate extension of Chairman Monty Thought. They feed on each other like Bronchitis and Pneumonia. Ike won't get the ball off a Fish pass often because Fish has to stop and telegraph the pass. Monty seems bent on using Ike as a stationary guy,a Dampier,when he really thrives on being both strong AND mobile. Ike needs decent chunks of game time if just to learn to play the refs. Refs are often bent on abusing and confusing young big men. I guess it's a tradition. It resulted in Troy Murphy backing off the D until recently,just so he would not collect a foul a minute. Biedrens and Ike probably have no idea what is a foul or is not...because even the ref blowing the whistle seems to do it for the sake of making some sound. with the call seldom obvious...or just plain backwards. Nobody gets to challenge these sacred zebras so like rampant mythic beasts they sow chaos and madness in their wake ..and kiss up to the box office/sneakerpimp "stars",if not the bookie in the parking lot while rookies just get the shaft. Murphy? The guy is WAITING to get to play in a sane system where his efforts amount to something. Post-Monty,perhaps it happens. He is 6-11,he understands the game and can get 11 rbds every damn night. He recently had a run where he got to play man D on the elite PF's and he showed he could do it well. I Think if you can D Duncan,you can D vs J Petro or C Mihm. He won't be blocking shots a lot but can be, overall,a decent C...but only if a coach actually has the basic ability to say..here's what we need you to do.
