<div class="quote_poster">Quoting shapecity:</div><div class="quote_post">They get wide open looks, setup by Steve Nash correct? His unselfish play translates throughout the Suns team and it results in great team play and a lot of impressive wins.</div> Lamar Odom thinks Kobe is his god. The rest of our scrubs feel like they won the lottery when kobe passes the ball and get confused and miss shots.
<div class="quote_poster">Quoting shapecity:</div><div class="quote_post">You really don't understand Kobe Bryant at all with the assessment you just made. Let's put Kobe Bryant in perspective, he's the best scorer and defender on the Laker team. Now before every game the coaches have a film session and point out weaknesses of the opponent. Each player is given a role on what needs to be done for the team to win. After the coaches are done, Kobe spends another 2 hours figuring out what he needs to do on the court to get his team the W. It's not a matter of focus, the man is always focused on the court. It comes down to what his approach has to be for his team to win. Obviously he can't give max effort on both sides of the ball for the entire game, so Kobe picks his spots. He reads and reacts to each situation and then takes care of the offensive load or the defensive load. I'm sure you've heard him in interviews talking about how each game is a different puzzle. So depending on the puzzle in front of him, Kobe allocates his effort accordingly. </div> How it is that with Kobe, it's "allocating effort", but with LeBron and Wade it's not giving consistent effort? That Kobe wants to guard the best perimeter player at the end of games is a credit to his competitiveness (and perhaps a discredit to the rest of the Lakers defensive abilities). What I would want to know is how effective he's been late in games on the defensive end. No point in giving him extra credit for taking the challenge if he's not doing a better job than another defender would have. I'm not following the Lakers nearly as closely as you, so all those things happening behind the scenes I'm not aware of. I can only judge Kobe based on what I see him do on the court in the 10 or so Laker games I've watched this season and from what the numbers show. For instance, 82games.com shows that the Lakers give up 7.9 points/100poss more when Kobe is on the floor. Even Smush Parker, who's an atrocious defender from what I've seen, doesn't have such a disparity (with him on the court Lakers give up 2.9 more). I know that Kobe is capable of locking in on defense and doing a great job -- I've seen it. But when over the course of the season the Lakers defense is so much worse when he's on the court, I have to question how great his defensive effort his. Maybe there's a perfectly reasonable reason for this, and Kobe is in fact as great defensive player as you make him out to be. I can't think of it, though.
<div class="quote_poster">Quoting durvasa:</div><div class="quote_post">How it is that with Kobe, it's "allocating effort", but with LeBron and Wade it's not giving consistent effort? That Kobe wants to guard the best perimeter player at the end of games is a credit to his competitiveness (and perhaps a discredit to the rest of the Lakers defensive abilities). What I would want to know is how effective he's been late in games on the defensive end. No point in giving him extra credit for taking the challenge if he's not doing a better job than another defender would have. I'm not following the Lakers nearly as closely as you, so all those things happening behind the scenes I'm not aware of. I can only judge Kobe based on what I see him do on the court in the 10 or so Laker games I've watched this season and from what the numbers show. For instance, 82games.com shows that the Lakers give up 7.9 points/100poss more when Kobe is on the floor. Even Smush Parker, who's an atrocious defender from what I've seen, doesn't have such a disparity (with him on the court Lakers give up 2.9 more). I know that Kobe is capable of locking in on defense and doing a great job -- I've seen it. But when over the course of the season the Lakers defense is so much worse when he's on the court, I have to question how great his defensive effort his. Maybe there's a perfectly reasonable reason for this, and Kobe is in fact as great defensive player as you make him out to be. I can't think of it, though.</div> This Lebron-Kobe arguement is getting out of control. Last time I checked this was an MVP debate.
<div class="quote_poster">Quoting durvasa:</div><div class="quote_post"> It seems like you're holding LeBron to a higher standard. While I agree that LeBron isn't a very good defender, he does enough on that end (defensive rebounder, steals, blocks, deflections) to keep him at least average. And he'll make a spectacular play every now and then, like Kobe. From the Laker games I watched, Kobe's defense is just adequate the majority of the time. When he's particularly focused, he can be a suffocating one-on-one defender, but in most of the Laker games I've watched this season he hasn't been that way. </div> Kobe does whats needed to win games. Kobe is not an adequate defender. He is a elite defender. He role on the Lakers has changed however. Selected to the 2003-04 All-Defensive First Team Selected to the 2002-03 All-Defensive First Team Selected to the 2001-2002 All-Defensive Second Team Selected to the 1999-2000 NBA All-Defensive First Team If you noticed above, during the Lakers championship runs, Kobe won these defensive awards when he didnt need to score so much. Shaq would score and Kobe could defend. These days, Kobe is the Lakers only real realiable scoring option, which leaves little energy to focus on defense. His primary duty is to score. Lebrons main duty is to score on the Cavs team,but I have yet to see him totally shut down a all star caliber player on defense. Bottomline, Kobe can play both sides of the ball equally as well. Something Lebron has yet to show. Again, Im not taking anything away from Lebron. He has played phenomenal this season, particularly after the all star break. But Kobe is still the best individual player in the NBA at this point of their careers.
<div class="quote_poster">Quoting durvasa:</div><div class="quote_post">How it is that with Kobe, it's "allocating effort", but with LeBron and Wade it's not giving consistent effort? That Kobe wants to guard the best perimeter player at the end of games is a credit to his competitiveness (and perhaps a discredit to the rest of the Lakers defensive abilities). What I would want to know is how effective he's been late in games on the defensive end. No point in giving him extra credit for taking the challenge if he's not doing a better job than another defender would have. I'm not following the Lakers nearly as closely as you, so all those things happening behind the scenes I'm not aware of. I can only judge Kobe based on what I see him do on the court in the 10 or so Laker games I've watched this season and from what the numbers show. For instance, 82games.com shows that the Lakers give up 7.9 points/100poss more when Kobe is on the floor. Even Smush Parker, who's an atrocious defender from what I've seen, doesn't have such a disparity (with him on the court Lakers give up 2.9 more). I know that Kobe is capable of locking in on defense and doing a great job -- I've seen it. But when over the course of the season the Lakers defense is so much worse when he's on the court, I have to question how great his defensive effort his. Maybe there's a perfectly reasonable reason for this, and Kobe is in fact as great defensive player as you make him out to be. I can't think of it, though.</div> Do those stats show who's on the floor with Kobe Bryant in those situations? If so, please post them, it will be interesting to see who he plays with most. Those stats are misleading, they indicate Smush is a better defender than Kobe. That there in itself proves that the stats aren't telling the real story. Do they account for the fact that Kobe is on the court most of the time and when he come's off for more than 5 minutes it's generally because its a blowout in the Lakers favour? Hence leading to The Lakers team playing well and the opposition playing the opposite? There are externalities that aren't accounted for.
<div class="quote_poster">Quoting Laker_fan:</div><div class="quote_post">Do those stats show who's on the floor with Kobe Bryant in those situations? If so, please post them, it will be interesting to see who he plays with most. Those stats are misleading, they indicate Smush is a better defender than Kobe. That there in itself proves that the stats aren't telling the real story. Do they account for the fact that Kobe is on the court most of the time and when he come's off for more than 5 minutes it's generally because its a blowout in the Lakers favour? Hence leading to The Lakers team playing well and the opposition playing the opposite? There are externalities that aren't accounted for.</div> Ideally, it would be nice to see an +/- that adjusts for teammates and opponents faced, for the reasons you give. But does Phil Jackson sit Kobe down at regular points during the game (like, to begin the second and fourth quarters)? Or is Kobe in pretty much throughout, unless it's a blowout. In other words, what proportion of the minutes when he's not on the floor would you say occurs in "garbage time" versus during the actual game?
<div class="quote_poster">Quoting Empra!15:</div><div class="quote_post">This Lebron-Kobe arguement is getting out of control. Last time I checked this was an MVP debate.</div> Right, and they are two MVP candidates. Here's what ESPN's Chris Broussard said in making a case for LeBron in his blog: http://insider.espn.go.com/espn/blog/index..._chris#20060407 <div class="quote_poster">Quote:</div><div class="quote_post"> ... LeBron James LeBron's late run is getting him some MVP consideration. Here's the case for LeBron. The Cavs have a shot at winning 50 games despite being without Larry Hughes (broken finger) for 45 games. That speaks volumes about James' greatness when considering his supporting cast. Outside of Zydrunas Ilgauskas, who himself is not all-star caliber, most everyone else in the Cavs' rotation is mediocre: the aging Eric Snow at point; Damon Jones, who's had a down year; Donyell Marshall, who hasn't shot well from 3 this season; Flip Murray, who was coming off the pine for atrocious Seattle; Sasha Pavlovic; Anderson Varejao. I actually like Drew Gooden a lot, but at best he's a gritty role player. Of those players, only Snow has any real history of winning (in Philly with A.I.). As impressive as Nash has been in keeping Phoenix elite without Amare, he still has perennial all-star Shawn Marion, who's been good enough to garner a small degree of MVP consideration himself. And Kurt Thomas, who played in 53 games, is more accomplished than any of Cleveland's power forwards. Winning history? Marion made three trips to the playoffs before ever teaming with Nash. Thomas and Raja Bell have been to the NBA Finals. Plus, the Cavaliers -- and certainly James -- have been stronger down the stretch. Phoenix has lost 6 of its last 10 and 8 of its last 15 games. In one of those recent games, a 38-point drubbing at Jersey, Nash was scoreless. Meanwhile, the Cavs recently won nine straight, and James was off the charts in March. He averaged 32.9 points, 8.4 rebounds and 6.6 assists in leading Cleveland to a 10-4 record and earning Eastern Conference Player of the Month. April? He has per-game averages of 38.8 points, 8.0 assists, 7.5 rebounds, 56.8 percent shooting. His numbers are absolutely ridiculous. For the season, (31.6 points, 7.2 rebounds, 6.7 assists, 48 percent shooting), he's closing in on becoming only the fourth player in NBA history to average at least 31 points, 7 rebounds and 6 assists. The other three? MJ, Oscar and Jerry West. Clutch? James is shooting better than 60 percent in the last two minutes of either the fourth quarter or overtime in one-possession games. No one else with 20 or more field goal attempts in such situations (29 players in all) is shooting 50 percent. The other candidates -- D Wade, Dirk, Chauncey and Kobe -- have been strong, but it's got to be between LeBron and Nash. And I'm leaning toward LeBron more and more every day. </div>
<div class="quote_poster">Quoting durvasa:</div><div class="quote_post">How it is that with Kobe, it's "allocating effort", but with LeBron and Wade it's not giving consistent effort? That Kobe wants to guard the best perimeter player at the end of games is a credit to his competitiveness (and perhaps a discredit to the rest of the Lakers defensive abilities). What I would want to know is how effective he's been late in games on the defensive end. No point in giving him extra credit for taking the challenge if he's not doing a better job than another defender would have. I'm not following the Lakers nearly as closely as you, so all those things happening behind the scenes I'm not aware of. I can only judge Kobe based on what I see him do on the court in the 10 or so Laker games I've watched this season and from what the numbers show. For instance, 82games.com shows that the Lakers give up 7.9 points/100poss more when Kobe is on the floor. Even Smush Parker, who's an atrocious defender from what I've seen, doesn't have such a disparity (with him on the court Lakers give up 2.9 more). I know that Kobe is capable of locking in on defense and doing a great job -- I've seen it. But when over the course of the season the Lakers defense is so much worse when he's on the court, I have to question how great his defensive effort his. Maybe there's a perfectly reasonable reason for this, and Kobe is in fact as great defensive player as you make him out to be. I can't think of it, though.</div> You can see their body language on the court and both of them have been criticized by their coach about being lazy defenders. The +/- numbers are a terrible stat. There are so many variables it doesn't account for. For example... Kobe is on the court for most of the game. When he's on the bench the other teams best players are also on the bench. This explains the scoring discrepancy when he's on and off the court. Why? The second or third units aren't going to score at the rate the starters do. Another example... The Lakers also have a non-traditional rotation from other teams. PJax often has Kobe on the floor with the Laker bench players defending the opposing team's starters.
<div class="quote_poster">Quote:</div><div class="quote_post">Here's the case for LeBron. The Cavs have a shot at winning 50 games despite being without Larry Hughes (broken finger) for 45 games. That speaks volumes about James' greatness when considering his supporting cast. Outside of Zydrunas Ilgauskas, who himself is not all-star caliber, most everyone else in the Cavs' rotation is mediocre: the aging Eric Snow at point; Damon Jones, who's had a down year; Donyell Marshall, who hasn't shot well from 3 this season; Flip Murray, who was coming off the pine for atrocious Seattle; Sasha Pavlovic; Anderson Varejao. I actually like Drew Gooden a lot, but at best he's a gritty role player.</div> I read Broussard's blog, I really have a problem with this part of his post. Larry Hughes is irrelevant to the team's success because he wasn't their last year either. His signing was meant to be an addition to this team, he wasn't brought in to replace anyone. I also don't like how he overlooks Big Z's impact on the court and calls him a 'non-All Star.' Big Z is one of the best center's in the game right now. He gives the Cavs an inside presence in the post, and anchors the defense with his size. The reality is the Cavs rotation is a lot better than most of the teams in the league dispite what Broussard would have his reader's believe. LeBron is putting up insane numbers down in April, but he should compare it with some of the other players in the MVP running. LeBron James 38.8 PPG 7.8 APG 7.0 RPG Kobe Bryant 45.3 PPG 3.3 APG 5.3 RPG Dwyane Wade 26.0 PPG 6.8 APG 5.8 RPG Steve Nash 15.7 PPG 7.3 APG 2.0 RPG Dirk Nowitzki 27.3 PPG 3.3 APG 9.3 RPG
<div class="quote_poster">Quoting shapecity:</div><div class="quote_post">You can see their body language on the court and both of them have been criticized by their coach about being lazy defenders. The +/- numbers are a terrible stat. There are so many variables it doesn't account for. For example... Kobe is on the court for most of the game. When he's on the bench the other teams best players are also on the bench. This explains the scoring discrepancy when he's on and off the court. Why? The second or third units aren't going to score at the rate the starters do. Another example... The Lakers also have a non-traditional rotation from other teams. PJax often has Kobe on the floor with the Laker bench players defending the opposing team's starters.</div> All good points. I wish there was a better way to guage a player's defensive contributions using statistics. There are some analytical methods out there (like this) for arriving at "adjusted +/-", but it would be way too time consuming to actually go about calculating them. I consider things like body language a deception indicator of effectiveness on the court. Obviously just relying on steals, blocks, and rebounds is inadequate. And simple +/- stats are affected by too many other factors, like you say. Here's an article of some relevance to the discussion, focusing on Kobe's defensive effort in just a single game. But is this an accurate portrayal of his effort in most games? Is it a fair assessment? http://www.82games.com/pelton8.htm
I remember the Denver game very well. Pelton's breakdown is right, Kobe played terrible defense against Lenard and Buckner. In fact, Kobe doesn't defend as well against this quality of players. Another player who lights Kobe up is Trenton Hassell. In those matchups, Kobe doesn't focus on the one on one matchup. Instead, he plays more like a free safety on defense and gets caught cheating. Sometimes it's by defensive design, and the coaches will play the percentages. The Lakers coaching staff can deal with Hassell taking 15 shots, rather than having KG get off on the Lakers. The article is not a fair assessment of Kobe's effort or impact on defense. It's not even close and I think Pelton deliberately used this one game to try and dispell Kobe's defensive presence on the floor. This isn't the first article Pelton's written to slant the perception of Kobe. The very next game Kobe adjusted his approach and completely shut Lenard down four days later.
<div class="quote_poster">Quoting durvasa:</div><div class="quote_post">Right, and they are two MVP candidates. Here's what ESPN's Chris Broussard said in making a case for LeBron in his blog: http://insider.espn.go.com/espn/blog/index..._chris#20060407</div> Right lets not get carried away and forget the other candidates.
<div class="quote_poster">Quoting duvarsa:</div><div class="quote_post">Meanwhile, the Cavs recently won nine straight, and James was off the charts in March. He averaged 32.9 points, 8.4 rebounds and 6.6 assists in leading Cleveland to a 10-4 record and earning Eastern Conference Player of the Month. April? He has per-game averages of 38.8 points, 8.0 assists, 7.5 rebounds, 56.8 percent shooting.</div> I thought the MVP award was about how somebody played throughout the whole season? Not just the last month. Don't get me wrong, James has been playing consistant but it's abit stupid for the article to have stats during a certain month of the year.
<div class="quote_poster">Quoting Laker_fan:</div><div class="quote_post">I thought the MVP award was about how somebody played throughout the whole season? Not just the last month. Don't get me wrong, James has been playing consistant but it's abit stupid for the article to have stats during a certain month of the year.</div> He's been playing like that or close to that the whole season, the thing i don't get is how kobe is more of an MVP candidate than lebron? all i've heard as an excuse is defense. then i guess nash shouldn't get the award either becuase he's no master of the d. Lebron has been playing with a mediocore cast as well, like kobe; hughes practically missed the whole season. yes he has Z but kobe has lamar who is much more skilled, and the cavs are at the 4 spot bordering on 50 wins and would anyone deny that the cavs wouldn't make the playoffs without lebron? I know however that since kobe is a veteran he's going to get the benefit of the doubt over lebron.
Saying that someone shouldn't be in the running for the MVP because his team is too good is a weak argument and contradicts the whole point of the award. Look at the history: almost all of the MVP's have been surrounded by talent and have been on one of the top teams in the League. By arguing against that, you're describing an award that doesn't exist.
<div class="quote_poster">Quoting Empra!15:</div><div class="quote_post">Right lets not get carried away and forget the other candidates.</div> I think LeBron has a better case, so I'm comparing him to Kobe. You don't mean to say that I need to compare all the candidates all at once, do you?
<div class="quote_poster">Quoting shapecity:</div><div class="quote_post">I remember the Denver game very well. Pelton's breakdown is right, Kobe played terrible defense against Lenard and Buckner. In fact, Kobe doesn't defend as well against this quality of players. Another player who lights Kobe up is Trenton Hassell. The article is not a fair assessment of Kobe's effort or impact on defense. It's not even close and I think Pelton deliberately used this one game to try and dispell Kobe's defensive presence on the floor. This isn't the first article Pelton's written to slant the perception of Kobe. The very next game Kobe adjusted his approach and completely shut Lenard down four days later.</div> If his breakdown is accurate, then his assessment of Kobe for that game is fair, right? At the end, he says: <div class="quote_poster">Quote:</div><div class="quote_post"> What I saw certainly doesn't make Bryant a bad defender, but - based on this limited sample size - he looked nothing like an All-Defensive team member. Bryant wasn't even the best defender at his position on the court in this game, that being Denver's Buckner. Psychologists speak of the "halo effect," which theorizes that when someone is good at one thing, we overestimate their ability at others. I think there's an element of this at play in Bryant making the All-Defense team. On pure defensive value, I don't think Bryant can stand with specialists like Bruce Bowen or Trenton Hassell.</div> I guess this is the part you took exception to (the "halo effect" theory being applied to Kobe's defense). Do you think Kobe's impact defensively is on par with defensive specialists like Bruce Bowen or Trenton Hassell? You said earlier that he stategically "allocates effort", which doesn't seem far off from Pelton's assessment that Kobe tends to coast for long stretches during a game. I think we all agree that when Kobe is particularly focused on defense, he's an exceptional defender. But for whatever reason (and perhaps the reason is strategic, like you say) the effort looks to be sporadic. Pelton also wrote this favorable article regarding Kobe about how his "ball hogging" appears to have a positive impact on the Lakers, contrary to what critics say. Is there some other article you were referring to where he was critical of Kobe?
Why are Kobe lovers so astonished at the fact the Lakers are in the playoffs? Not everybody picked them to be out of the playoffs, their were people who actually picked them to make the playoffs, but you guys (Laker/Kobe fans) make it seem like it's such a huge deal because of his 'supporting cast'. 7th seed is nowhere close to MVP material. Kobe lovers should stop being so biased and realize, while Kobe is having a fantastic season, he should not be MVP.
