<div class="quote_poster">Quote:</div><div class="quote_post">5. Tim Duncan – dropped four places due to a season with plantar faciitis from pre-season ranking, but still IMO the very best player in the game when healthy. Don’t be fooled by his statistics, he is coming on strong and watch out league as Spurs get more rest between games.</div> 6. Shaquille O’Neal – disregard the injuries etc., he is still the greatest “force” in the game with Duncan right behind him - for the attention they get all the time. If he got in true shape, he could move back up to top three very fast. <div class="quote_poster">Quote:</div><div class="quote_post">19. Tracy McGrady – still very valuable when he can play. If he gets healthy and motivated could move with Yao into top ten next year. Seemingly, not destined to ever achieve the greatness he could be due to injuries, but if healthy he can play with anyone, including Kobe Bryant and back down to no one in all around talent. Still believe his outburst to beat Spurs last year in regular season (13 points in around 1 minute) at end was the most amazing thing I have ever seen on a basketball court, even more than Bryant's 81 due to superior quality of the opponent.</div> <div class="quote_poster">Quote:</div><div class="quote_post">Jermaine O’Neal (top 15 when healthy), </div> 23. Jason Kidd – after Nash, IMO still best pure PG in league. Injuries and a streaky shot keep him from top 10-15. (Amare Stoudemire was left off only due to injury - healthy he is a top 12 player and if his rebounding and defense improves deserves consideration for top 5) Everyone is getting slammed for health, except for Duncan & Shaq. If you read most of the explanations, everyone he has "could be" in the top 10-15 next season. If all those guys move up, who do they replace and why?
<div class="quote_poster">Quoting shapecity:</div><div class="quote_post"> Everyone is getting slammed for health, except for Duncan & Shaq. </div> But he isn't being inconsistent. He's not ignoring injuries for some players, and taking them into account for others. He's ranking players, given their current health/injury situation. It's just that he feels Shaq and Duncan are among the best players in the game even when they're not 100%. There's also no inconsistency in putting Duncan ahead of Shaq, even if he regards Shaq as the greater "force." By "force", he probably means "offensive force". Duncan is still a clearly superior defensive player, even at 85%. <div class="quote_poster">Quote:</div><div class="quote_post">If you read most of the explanations, everyone he has "could be" in the top 10-15 next season. If all those guys move up, who do they replace and why?</div> And players currently in the top 10-15 "could be" off the list next season. Perhaps I'm not understanding you, but I don't think he needs to give arguments for next years list, as far as who might be replaceable in the future and why.
<div class="quote_poster">Quote:</div><div class="quote_post">But he isn't being inconsistent. He's not ignoring injuries for some players, and taking them into account for others. He's ranking players, given their current health/injury situation. It's just that he feels Shaq and Duncan are among the best players in the game even when they're not 100%. </div> Sure he is. He needs to make up his mind to overlook the injuries or include them for his rankings. TMac, Jermaine O'Neal, and Amare have all missed significant time because of injuries. He leaves TMac on, but leaves both Amare and O'Neal off. Based on his rankings, he's saying despite TMac's injuries he's still better than all the players under him? Shouldn't the fact TMac can't stay healthy knock him even further down the list like he did with Jermaine O'neal and Amare? Then he goes and rewards Ron Artest for being one of the best two way players. If you are going to reward a player for having an impact on both ends of the court, shouldn't you penalize a player who doesn't impact both ends? Dwyane Wade, LeBron James, Ray Allen, Allen Iverson, Steve Nash ... all these guys are offensive juggernauts and piss poor defensive players.
<div class="quote_poster">Quoting shapecity:</div><div class="quote_post">Sure he is. He needs to make up his mind to overlook the injuries or include them for his rankings. TMac, Jermaine O'Neal, and Amare have all missed significant time because of injuries. He leaves TMac on, but leaves both Amare and O'Neal off. Based on his rankings, he's saying despite TMac's injuries he's still better than all the players under him? Shouldn't the fact TMac can't stay healthy knock him even further down the list like he did with Jermaine O'neal and Amare?</div> Amare played only a few games this season, and other than his first game back against Portland, he was ineffective. He doesn't make the list because we simply didn't see enough from him this year to evaluate him. Jermaine O'neal is a good player, but he hasn't really been that great this year. McGrady is out with the back injury now, but if you look at what he did during the season is he was still one of the better players even with the back problems. When at full strength, he's clearly a top-10 type player. This season he was bumped down to 19 because he wasn't as effective. Sounds fair to me. <div class="quote_poster">Quote:</div><div class="quote_post">Then he goes and rewards Ron Artest for being one of the best two way players. If you are going to reward a player for having an impact on both ends of the court, shouldn't you penalize a player who doesn't impact both ends?</div> I don't quite follow the logic. Being a great two-way player doesn't make you automatically better than someone who's only great on one side. You have to look at the overall impact. Even if LeBron James is an average defender, he's still obviously a much better player overall than Artest. <div class="quote_poster">Quote:</div><div class="quote_post">Dwyane Wade, LeBron James, Ray Allen, Allen Iverson, Steve Nash ... all these guys are offensive juggernauts and piss poor defensive players.</div> I'd agree with you on Allen, Iverson, and Nash. Wade and James, while not stellar defensive players, are not "piss poor". Wade, in particular, is certainly an above average defensive player. It wasn't without reason he got 2nd defensive team honors last season.
<div class="quote_poster">Quoting durvasa:</div><div class="quote_post">Amare played only a few games this season, and other than his first game back against Portland, he was ineffective. He doesn't make the list because we simply didn't see enough from him this year to evaluate him. Jermaine O'neal is a good player, but he hasn't really been that great this year. McGrady is out with the back injury now, but if you look at what he did during the season is he was still one of the better players even with the back problems. When at full strength, he's clearly a top-10 type player. This season he was bumped down to 19 because he wasn't as effective. Sounds fair to me. I don't quite follow the logic. Being a great two-way player doesn't make you automatically better than someone who's only great on one side. You have to look at the overall impact. Even if LeBron James is an average defender, he's still obviously a much better player overall than Artest. I'd agree with you on Allen, Iverson, and Nash. Wade and James, while not stellar defensive players, are not "piss poor". Wade, in particular, is certainly an above average defensive player. It wasn't without reason he got 2nd defensive team honors last season.</div> Wade making the 2nd defensive team honors last season was an absolute joke. Their best defensive perimeter player last season was Eddie Jones, second was Keyon Dooling. Wade was hidden on defense, just like he is this season. Wade and LeBron should be a lot better than average. These two have all the physical tools to be lockdown defenders, they just don't put forth the effort. Guys like Nash and Iverson simply aren't big enough to be great defenders in the NBA. <div class="quote_poster">Quote:</div><div class="quote_post">I don't quite follow the logic. Being a great two-way player doesn't make you automatically better than someone who's only great on one side.</div> Exactly, which is why I don't understand his rational of having Artest so high up. Like I said, he's all over the place with his explanations.
I sent this guy an email yesterday, and today I actually got a reply, which really surprised me, since the context of my email was pretty offensive in hindsight. Anyways, My email <div class="quote_poster">Quote:</div><div class="quote_post">Thank you for making your list. I really like how you gave props to every player on it, but never gave any reasoning for why they were placed above or below someone else. ARE YOU STUPID???? Shawn Marion, even with his play this year, is just the 19th best player? What has Tony Parker done better this season and every season before? What about TMac? Vince? Even friggin' Steve Francis? I don't even know how HOOPSWORLD thought you were talented enough to "publish" your ****. You belong on an Internet forum, not a basketball website that I once respected. IDIOTS LIKE YOU TURN ME OFF ON BASKETBALL. Thanks a lot, Martin </div> His reply: <div class="quote_poster">Quote:</div><div class="quote_post">Martin, before you call anyone out, please ask why in the future? I try to be cordial to fans and will explain my reasons. No list is easy and there are 50 or so players to consider in any list with all the great talent. Shaun Marion is an outstanding and versitile player (and a wonderful man) and ranked about in the right place, but has "come up small" in the playoffs and is "owned" by Bruce Bowen and that hurts his legacy. Marion's stats are also somewhat inflated by the uptempo play of the Suns = more possesions. Also, with Nash out the Suns lose all the time,and Marion cannot carry that team = enough said. Look how other players play with Nash and the averages sky rocket - I honestly believe Marion on many other teams is still very good player, say 18 and 9 but I would take a Josh Howard for him right now = better defender and better upside. Meanwhile, Parker is setting historical standards in FG% and poinnts in the paint FYI and leading this year as the MVP of a 60+ team with Duncan and Ginobili hobbled. What he has done as a PG this year is arguebly one of the greatest seasons ever, look at his stats and look at the wins. Parker in some writers opinions is in the MVP debate and should be. Others lists have him in the top ten players this year. Parker also has two titles, 2 more than any Suns by the way! Far better player in all regards than Francis, who you mentioned at PG and has Parker outplayed Nash and Kidd and others at times even being young. I would not trade Parker for even the great Nash for the system he plays in, as Parker is also by far, the better defender by the way. Only Billups right now and Nash are for sure better point guards than Parker (AI too should be considered even though he plays more like a shooting guard) TMac when healthy is a far better player for sure, but it is highly debatable whether or not Carter is - who plays no defense at all. Wake me when Carter ever wins something that matters by the way! He also quit on a team and is very soft when it matters. Thanks for writing and things are always up for debate Regards, Peter </div> Somehow I'm not that mad anymore, because he made me look stupid and immature...
LOL Locke, thanks for sharing. I'm glad he made you recognize he made you look immature with the email you sent him. I still don't agree with his argument about Marion. He was putting 19/10 a game with Marbury, but has definitely become a more efficient player with Nash. However, a lot of it could just be personal growth and development on his part. I also wouldn't say he hasn't proven himself in the playoffs. He had a rough series against the Spurs, but he was producing in the other two series for Phoenix. Bruce Bowen makes a lot of players look bad, but I don't think one player should have such a negative impact on Marion's legacy.
I just replied to his email, and brought up Marion's numbers pre-Nash. However, I forgot to save the email so I'll have to wait till he replies to post it here. <div class="quote_poster">Quote:</div><div class="quote_post">I'm glad he made you recognize he made you look immature with the email you sent him. </div> Why're you glad?
If that moron put Carter 21 becuase he hasn't one anything neither have Karl Malone, John Stockton, Gary Payton, and a lot of other great players.
<div class="quote_poster">Quote:</div><div class="quote_post">In a class of himself right now = Kobe Bryant ? <font color=""Red"">at least for this year</font>, not only best perimeter player but best overall ? period, no arguments allowed on this one.</div> So this guy basically making these ranking as far as this year, so um... <div class="quote_poster">Quote:</div><div class="quote_post">6. Shaquille O?Neal ? disregard the injuries etc., he is still the greatest ?force? in the game with Duncan right behind him - for the attention they get all the time. If he got in true shape, he could move back up to top three very fast.</div> That's BS. ^^^^^^ Yeah, so what he's the most dominant he hasn't showed that much this season. <div class="quote_poster">Quote:</div><div class="quote_post">5. Tim Duncan ? dropped four places due to a season with plantar faciitis from pre-season ranking, but still IMO the very best player in the game when healthy. Don?t be fooled by his statistics, he is coming on strong and watch out league as Spurs get more rest between games.</div> Def don't agree with this one too. As far as THIS SEASON GOES, no way Shaq and Duncan should be over Brand, AI and Dirk. Like someone mentioned in this thread, this list is very inconsistent.
<div class="quote_poster">Quoting Avery:</div><div class="quote_post"> Def don't agree with this one too. As far as THIS SEASON GOES, no way Shaq and Duncan should be over Brand, AI and Dirk. Like someone mentioned in this thread, this list is very inconsistent.</div> It's all a matter of opinion, of course, but I think there are plenty of basketball people who'd rather have Duncan or Shaq (despite them having down years) on their team for the playoffs than Brand, AI, or Dirk. I don't think it's that crazy.
<div class="quote_poster">Quoting Locke:</div><div class="quote_post"> Somehow I'm not that mad anymore, because he made me look stupid and immature...</div> I'm trying to figure out why you got so mad in the first place. Tony Parker has played excellent this year, and he's doing it for a 60+ win team. He may not be better than Marion, Carter, or McGrady -- but like he said it's definitely debatable. Steve Francis on other hand, let's be honest, he's just not very good this season and he's never even been an allstar caliber player for a winning (playoff) team. Francis didn't even deserve to make the honoroble mentions list.
Got the reply from him once again. My reply: <div class="quote_poster">Quote:</div><div class="quote_post">First off, I'd like to thank you for replying to my email. I also apologize for the previous outburst. The thing about Marion and Nash, I agree with. Nash does elevate the play of everyone around him and his pass-first mentality has helped Marion quite a bit. However, before you credit Nash for all of Marion's great play, look at Marion's numbers pre-Nash. With or without Nash, Marion has always been a 20/10 guy, or damn close to it. His shooting percentages have risen with Nash due to the many easy dunks and alley-oops, but Marion's stats haven't fluctuated much throughout his career. Considering the fact that he's never been Phoenix's focal point on offense makes it even more amazing. For the past two years, Marion has played out of position at the four and still has managed to elevate his play to a next level. Parker is having a great season, no doubt, but Marion is much more accomplished than Parker is and can contribute in more ways. Having him behind Parker and the likes of Carmelo Anthony and Ron Artest is a mistake. Also, defensively, I can make a very strong case for Marion as a top 5 defensive player in the game. His lateral quickness on the perimeter and above average D down low is quite the combination. I also don't see why you'd knock TMac and others for injuries while you "disregard" Shaq's injuries. At least stay consistent. You seem to have a lot of players in the top 10 if healthy as well. Well, who will these guys replace in the top 10-15 when they do become healthy? Thanks, Martin </div> His reply: <div class="quote_poster">Quote:</div><div class="quote_post">No list is perfect and wrote this when I was post call and in state of exhaustion. You make very solid points and I will do another list post season. Regards, PDR </div> W00t! Something very interesting, this Peter Rumm character is an associate professor at Drexel...
I send him an email too: <div class="quote_poster">Quote:</div><div class="quote_post">Your list is preery crappy, no offense. I agree with some of it but come on Vince Carter: 21? How is he # 21 on that list? He plays defense have you seen him play in New Jersey? He is a top 10-15 player. He is not a soft player he barely gets injured anymore. T-Mac is not number 19. You've got to be kidding me. Just cause he got injured does'nt make him less valuble. Rasheed Wallece should'nt be on that list, put Chris Bosh or Dwight Howard there instead. You have no player for number 15. Sincerly, Yama H.</div> His Response: <div class="quote_poster">Quote:</div><div class="quote_post">Yao Ming was left off at 15 in the revised rankings, thanks for bring that to my attention. TMac has never won a playoff series, period. He is also the only supposed superstar that lost 19 in a row and admitted to quitting on his team. The best thing the Magic ever did was move this immature young man, and rebuild. TMac certainly the potential to be a top ten player again, but right now is far behind Yao Ming in what he can bring on both ends. Vince Carter has never won anything, and most likely never will. On overall play I could justify leaving him completely off the list but gave him a ?gift? to put him on. By far, he is the most over-rated and soft, moody ?superstar? player in the game (although, Ray Allen is certainly in contention). Also, like his cousin, he also quit on a team and plays horrible defense ? do want to argue with you but he is a ?sift? and cannot guard anyone. His weakness is being covered up by a nice coaching scheme. Offense is not equal to the total of a player and I would want not want either one of these players on my team = give me a Josh Howard, a Manu Ginobili, Richard Hamilton, Tayshaun Prince, or the certainly growing brilliance Carmelo Anthony (moving way up list) over TMac = he is proving to be clutch. Based on their historical non-achievements, I will give you TMac and V. Carter in any playoffs series; and let me pick any two of 20 or even twenty five perimeter players (and/or small forwards) and my team will win any series period. The true NBA is not fantasy basketball! Thanks for writing and stay passionate about the game! Regards, PDR Peter D. Rumm, MD, MPH, FACPM Associate Professor, Department of Environmental and Occupational Health Director, Center for Public Health Readiness and Communication Drexel University School of Public Health 245 N. 15th St., MS 660 Philadelphia, PA 19102 215-762-1652 215-762-4088 Fax</div>
This guy is a total idiot. Last time I checked Vicne Carter was 1999 Rookie of the Year, and has won a playoff series. So therefore he has won something. T-Mac is still a great player, he played a very good Dallace team last year, and lost to Detroit in 04 I believe.
I sent his moron an e-mail to and I got a response.<div class="quote_poster">Quote:</div><div class="quote_post">I recently read the top 25 NBA players list you recently made for foxsports.com. Personally I htink it's one of the worst I've seen in a long time. First off, how on earth is Vince Carter number 21? He's won a playoff series and last time I checked won a playoff series. He is a legit top 15 player who gets a bad rep for what went on in Toronto. If Paul Pierce is 13 and Ron Artest is 12 Vince Carter should be right enxt to them. Tracy Mcgrady at 19? You have to be joking. He is a top 5 player when healthy and just because he has a bad back this year he slides down all thw way to 19? He carried the Magic to the playoffs and had a fantastic debut year in Houston. I know he hasn't won a palyoff series, but give the man some respect he is one hell of a player. Carmelo Anthony is not a top 10 player. Choosing him over Kevin Garnett or Paul Pierce. C'mon thnk before you make a ranking like that. You said Dwyane Wade was not on the saem level as Lebron or Kobe, yet Allen Iverson who is ranked behind Wade is not far behind? I don't understant you reasoning on that one. Rasheed Wallace is DEFINATELY NOT a top 25 player, and in my mind none of the Pistons starting five is with the exception of Chauncey Billups. He benefits from their team oriented style of play but if we're talking about the top 25 PLAYERS, then he most definately is not a top 25 player. Chris Paul has had a marvelous rookie year I'll give him that, but you can't make a guy top 25 after one good year. Over guys like Chris Bosh and Dwight Howard who are two top 20 players, especially Bosh. My biggest problem with this list is Shawn Marion at 18. How on earth did your brain process having Shawn Marion at number 18. The man is getting MVP buzz, arugably the most ocmplete player in the league, he can shoot from anywhere on the floor, jump out of the gym, and is an All Defensive type player. He is for sure a top ten player over Carmelo Anthony. Thanks,Frankie</div> His response:<div class="quote_poster">Quote:</div><div class="quote_post">Ok here it goes, this is not fantasy basketball: TMAc is certainnly top ten on potential but has never won a single playoff series, chronically injured, quit on a team, lost 19 in a row and team got better when they finally decided Yao Ming is the better player (and he is). Only one you mention though besides Garnett that one can make a case for = not Vince Carter! Vince Carter is not under-rated, soft defender, gave up on a team previously, and again has not won anything. Garnett is arguebly most over-rated player of all time - great stats but cannot raise level of others - put Duncan on same team and at least one title and many 2nd - 3rd round playoff series. Probably won't even make top 3 NBA teams this year and deservedly so. It is not just about stats, the game is played on both sides and the art of winning is considered. Carmelo has been more clutch than any of the above this year and I would take him over Carter or TMac for sure and might think about takiing him over Garnett. I would take R. Wallace on any team over any of the above if I had another star - team player, best big man defender in the league on Shaq and Duncan etc. However, thanks for writing. PDR</div>
His list looked better to me before I saw his rationale in some of the emails. He puts way too much weightage on indirect indicators like playoff success that depend on much more than how good a player is.
