<div class="quote_poster">Quoting spawn:</div><div class="quote_post">Strange choice of words there. I'm pretty sure you're the only one who would say that statement with a straight face in this entire board, if not in the entire basketball fanbase. </div> I don't think that's much of a stretch. The award should probably go to Nowvitski I think. 26.6 and 9 on a 60 win team is pretty hard to ignore. On the whole Dwayne Wade and Lebron James both have better all around stats then Kobe and their teams have more wins. Nash and Billups are both more valueble to their teams success than Kobe. They clear make the guys around them better which I think is a big part of being the MVP and is something that Kobe just doesnt do. None of the recent Laker additions have improved as a result of playing with Kobe and in some cases they've taken a step back. No other player really seems to have the opportunity to find any kind of rythm with Kobe demaning so many shots. I think also you could make a stronger case for Elton Brand as the MVP than Kobe. He has a better supporting cast than Kobe but as an individual performer he effects the game in much more ways than Kobe does.
<div class="quote_poster">Quoting ilive4ball:</div><div class="quote_post">Given the fact I've never seen you post on here before, and your comment above, I can tell you don't watch much basketball...</div> I've been posting here since right around the time this lovely site was established (minus a length period estrangement here and there) shapecity can vouch for that! I knew him before he was jbb royalty! and what kind of logic is that anyway? If you dont see someone post at this site a lot they must not watch much basketball? maybe they dont have a computer! maybe they watch sooo much basketball that they dont even have time to post coz theyre so busy watching basketabll! Strange choice of words there. I'm pretty sure you're the only one who would say that statement with a straight face in this entire board, if not in the entire basketball fanbase. anyway I'm not saying there's no way he makes the top 5 in MVP voting byt I don't think it's much of a stretch to say that he won't. The award should probably go to Nowvitski I think. 26.6 and 9 on a 60 win team is pretty hard to ignore. On the whole Dwayne Wade and Lebron James both have better all around stats then Kobe and their teams have more wins. Nash and Billups are both more valueble to their teams success than Kobe. They clear make the guys around them better which I think is a big part of being the MVP and is something that Kobe just doesnt do. None of the recent Laker additions have improved as a result of playing with Kobe and in some cases they've taken a step back. No other player really seems to have the opportunity to find any kind of rythm with Kobe demaning so many shots. I think also you could make a stronger case for Elton Brand as the MVP than Kobe. He has a better supporting cast than Kobe but as an individual performer he effects the game in much more ways than Kobe does.
<div class="quote_poster">Quoting olskoolFunktitude:</div><div class="quote_post">They clear make the guys around them better which I think is a big part of being the MVP and is something that Kobe just doesnt do. None of the recent Laker additions have improved as a result of playing with Kobe and in some cases they've taken a step back. No other player really seems to have the opportunity to find any kind of rythm with Kobe demaning so many shots. </div>i somewhat agree with this. Way too many people are caught up on the Kobe's-supporting-cast-sucks bandwagon. On paper they would be very unimpressive but who knows maybe they would have had unbelievable chemistry and heart? there are a lot of teams that come out of nowhere sometimes. Last year Seattle won a lot of games and aside from Ray Allen, there was no special players on that team, no Rashard Lewis is not that special. I mean Jerome James, Danny Fortson, Ridnour, Flip Murray, Collison etc. It's all hypothetical. We'll never know if Kobe wasn't on this Lakers team what the rest of the guys would be like as a team. Whether they would feel more freedom to develop their game or not. Don't get me wrong, I wouldn't expect them to be a good team, but they might have been "alright", like a 38 win team maybe. As we have seen from the Knicks, talent does not equal wins. Heart and chemistry count for a hell of a lot.
good point. this is the NBA. every player HAS talent. I think the Lakers would be worse of course without Kobe. But if you susbsitute for him any decent shooting guard who knows what their team would be like. I really dont think you can just go ahead and assume that they'd be struggling to win 15 games.
<div class="quote_poster">Quoting olskoolFunktitude:</div><div class="quote_post">Kobe may not finish in the top 5 in the mvp balloting. I dont care what Simmons says, the Lakers would only be marginally worse without him.</div> Are you serious? Marginally worse? Our starting lineup would be: Smush, Devean, Lamar, Kwame, Mihm (to start season) without Kobe. How is that marginally worse? That's a Charlotte Bobcat talent wise team right there. We'd be in the running for a 4th-8th pick.
whatsup with players making other players better? nash doesnt make players better the coaches do that thats their job and these kobe haters are not welcomed here
Stop assuming people are Kobe-haters just because they critisize him. Often, Kobe-haters admit that they don't really like him much and say so.
My problem with some of these posts is the clear bias in that they say that hypothetically the players COULD be better than we think and COULD play with heart and win more than 15 games. But its all HYPOTHETICAL yet they are willing to fall on the side of Kobe not making them any better?!?! They make that decision based on some hypothetical concept that allows for Smush Parker, Mihm, Brian Cook, and company to all of a sudden become better than what they would have been: third options, bench warmers, or NBDL players. There is FARRRR more proof of Kobe making players better than there is ANY proof of him not making them better. Now Kobe is not a point guard so naturally he is not going to make anyone get more shots and thus score more... but he makes players better by giving them higher percentage shots simply by being on the court. He is also the second leading Laker in assists despite being the teams gunner. Add to that the fact that he quarterbacked and lead the Lakers in assists during the championship years and I don't see how he could not have made the players he played with better. Bryan Shaw and Rick Fox etc said as much in an article on here how Kobe made the game so much easier for them when he was on the court. They played with him... they should know. Yet you people who don't even play NBA basketball are going to wash that off with some hypothetical reasoning?! Give me a break.
<div class="quote_poster">Quoting spawn:</div><div class="quote_post">Stop assuming people are Kobe-haters just because they critisize him.</div> THANK YOU. It's very annoying when these biased Kobe/Laker fans think just because someone critisizes him, that they are 'Kobe Haters'.
<div class="quote_poster">Quoting Fiyah:</div><div class="quote_post"> Yet you people who don't even play NBA basketball are going to wash that off with some hypothetical reasoning?! Give me a break.</div> Saying the Lakers would struggle to win 15 games without Kobe is also a hypothetical, isn't it? I think the Lakers would be terrible, though probably not as bad as New York or Portland. They'd win maybe 25-30 games.
<div class="quote_poster">Quoting ilive4ball:</div><div class="quote_post">I'm totally getting what your sayin, but your message is being killed by the fact that you repeat the wrong STAT (ironic since your writing about stats not being everything- maybe you did it purposely?) over and over in your article saying 63 when it was 62....but anyways</div> nope that was my bad, not purposely. but like i say, i don't analyze stats so deeply. he had a 62 point game. and not any 62 point game which anyone who watched it would know. that was just something else the way he manhandled the mavs.
<div class="quote_poster">Quoting philip2136:</div><div class="quote_post">whatsup with players making other players better? nash doesnt make players better the coaches do that thats their job and these kobe haters are not welcomed here</div> I don't think anyone here is "hating" on Kobe. I mean if I came in here and said that Baron Davis is not the league MVP you wouldn't say I was "hating" on him. just pointing out a fact. And how is it any less hypothetical to assume the lakers would win 15 games without kobe than it is to assume that theyd win 25-30 without him. Im also assuming that if they didnt have kobe they would have some average shooting guard in his place. Its just common sense
<div class="quote_poster">Quote:</div><div class="quote_post"> I don't think anyone here is "hating" on Kobe. I mean if I came in here and said that Baron Davis is not the league MVP you wouldn't say I was "hating" on him. <u>just pointing out a fact.</u> </div> How is Kobe not being the MVP (assuming your Bron reference was offered as an insight as your view on Kobe's chances of MVP) a "fact"? A fact is somehting that has been proven and as far as everyone is concerned, the award has not been handed out. If you came in and said Baron Davis is not the league MVP, nobody would say anything because yes, indeed that is a known OPINION (it's not a fact unless the stamp has been given by the league itself.) It's a opinion that can be defended to the fullest and it is an opinion that will not lose in an arguement. However, how can you say that about Kobe's chances is the point I'm getting to. Give me a challenge as to why you think Kobe is not the MVP and I'll give you back an arguement as to why he is. I believe that all this MVP talk and speculation is just that, speculation. It is hypothetical. Just like last year when 80% of the people on this board wouldn't agree with Nash winning MVP, there's be another 80% that don't agree with whoever is the MVP this year. It's majority rules and everyone needs to get that through thier heads (including Kobe fans). In my personal opinion, it's a tight race between Kobe, Lebron and Nash with Kobe or Nash most likely winning it.
<div class="quote_poster">Quoting durvasa:</div><div class="quote_post">Saying the Lakers would struggle to win 15 games without Kobe is also a hypothetical, isn't it? <font color="Red">Yes. I haven't made any predictions on how many games they would win without him. I said that they were mostly bench warmers (most of them were second string players before this season). That is fact. The hypothetical is that somehow they are all a bunch of Boris Diaws only Kobe is holding them back. </font> I think the Lakers would be terrible, though probably not as bad as New York or Portland. They'd win maybe 25-30 games.</div> As long as you acknowledge they would be terrible. I am fine with that.
<div class="quote_poster">Quoting olskoolFunktitude:</div><div class="quote_post">I don't think anyone here is "hating" on Kobe. I mean if I came in here and said that Baron Davis is not the league MVP you wouldn't say I was "hating" on him. just pointing out a fact. And how is it any less hypothetical to assume the lakers would win 15 games without kobe than it is to assume that theyd win 25-30 without him. Im also assuming that if they didnt have kobe they would have some average shooting guard in his place. Its just common sense</div> I haven't made a hypothetical theory on how much the team would win without him. But based on the make-up of the team (their starters were mostly second string players last season) and their bench players are either NBDL level players, too young, too inexperiences... or too old and injured. The Lakers have one of the weakest benches in the league. I am making an educated guess that the team would be horrible if you switched Kobe with a lesser guard. The facts are in my favour on that...
<div class="quote_poster">Quoting spawn:</div><div class="quote_post">How is Kobe not being the MVP (assuming your Bron reference was offered as an insight as your view on Kobe's chances of MVP) a "fact"? A fact is somehting that has been proven and as far as everyone is concerned, the award has not been handed out. If you came in and said Baron Davis is not the league MVP, nobody would say anything because yes, indeed that is a known OPINION (it's not a fact unless the stamp has been given by the league itself.) It's a opinion that can be defended to the fullest and it is an opinion that will not lose in an arguement. However, how can you say that about Kobe's chances is the point I'm getting to. Give me a challenge as to why you think Kobe is not the MVP and I'll give you back an arguement as to why he is. I believe that all this MVP talk and speculation is just that, speculation. It is hypothetical. Just like last year when 80% of the people on this board wouldn't agree with Nash winning MVP, there's be another 80% that don't agree with whoever is the MVP this year. It's majority rules and everyone needs to get that through thier heads (including Kobe fans). In my personal opinion, it's a tight race between Kobe, Lebron and Nash with Kobe or Nash most likely winning it.</div> I am a huge Kobe fan... and as much as I would love to see Kobe win the MVP I don't think, based on how the award has been doled out the last 6-7 years that he should get it. I think it should be Nash with Kobe second. Is Kobe the best player in the league... sure... but the criteria the last couple of years has been the most valuable player on a good team. The Lakers are an ok team right now... they aren't good yet. That being said... all the comments about Kobe not making players better or comments that seem to go away from the incredible thing he has done for this team this season is unwarranted and cannot in any way be backed up. People just shoot their mouth off and echo whats said in the media... Kobe does not make his teammates better.... can ANYONE even come close to proving that?
<div class="quote_poster">Quoting spawn:</div><div class="quote_post">How is Kobe not being the MVP (assuming your Bron reference was offered as an insight as your view on Kobe's chances of MVP) a "fact"? A fact is somehting that has been proven and as far as everyone is concerned, the award has not been handed out. If you came in and said Baron Davis is not the league MVP, nobody would say anything because yes, indeed that is a known OPINION (it's not a fact unless the stamp has been given by the league itself.) It's a opinion that can be defended to the fullest and it is an opinion that will not lose in an arguement. However, how can you say that about Kobe's chances is the point I'm getting to. Give me a challenge as to why you think Kobe is not the MVP and I'll give you back an arguement as to why he is. I believe that all this MVP talk and speculation is just that, speculation. It is hypothetical. Just like last year when 80% of the people on this board wouldn't agree with Nash winning MVP, there's be another 80% that don't agree with whoever is the MVP this year. It's majority rules and everyone needs to get that through thier heads (including Kobe fans). In my personal opinion, it's a tight race between Kobe, Lebron and Nash with Kobe or Nash most likely winning it.</div> my bad, my bad. I totally didnt mean to say that was a "fact" as it certainly is not a fact for the reasons you pointed out. It's not a FACT that Dan Dickau isn't the mvp either it's just not very likely. I think it is a fact though that Kobe is not a top candidate to win MVP and that pointing THAT out doesnt make me an a hater. I wasnt trying to use Baron Davis as a comparison as to me he doesnt even really qualify as an "mvp" canidate but im not hating on him either. Dan Dickau on the other hand, I'll hate on all day
