<div class="quote_poster">Quoting philip2136:</div><div class="quote_post">your one badass kobe hater og15</div> He does have a good point though
<div class="quote_poster">Quote:</div><div class="quote_post">How is Kobe any more deserving than LeBron, just because he scored 81 points? James' numbers are just as impressive as Kobe's</div> Of all the people I mentioned I said LeBron is closest to being in the same boat as Kobe in that he doesn't have much around him. He has an "All-Star" Center but I'm really not sure how big Z can be considered an All-star. He has (sorta) Larry Hughes, but he hasn't been around much of the season. I wasn't saying anything bad about LeBron I was saying that he in fact can relate to Kobe the most in terms of mediocre teammates. As for Lamar Odom being "better than all those guys"- When he plays like we all know he can- He's out of this world better. But like someone said- he's Mr. Inconsistent, which I think people are forgetting because he's been on a tear since the All-Star Break.
<div class="quote_poster">Quote:</div><div class="quote_post">He's had a decent run since the All Star game</div> Decent? I think his numbers since the All-star break have been better than 'decent'. <div class="quote_poster">Quote:</div><div class="quote_post">but he's not a triple double threat every night.</div> Yes he is. He's had several games when he's been a few assists and few rebounds shy of a triple double. <div class="quote_poster">Quote:</div><div class="quote_post">As for the comment of Kwame being one of the best post players in the NBA, I can name 20 better.</div> Can you read? Here, let me point it out to you again. <div class="quote_poster">Quote:</div><div class="quote_post">You make it sound like Kobe has nothing to work with at all. He has Lamar Odom who is a triple double threat every night, and Kwame Brown, one of the best post <u>defenders</u> in the NBA. Not to mention, his coach is one of the greatest of all time.</div> <div class="quote_poster">Quote:</div><div class="quote_post">I don't know why LeBron is made out to have nobody.</div> I don't know why Kobe is made out to have nobody. <div class="quote_poster">Quote:</div><div class="quote_post">He has Damon Jones who is an underrated player.</div> Aha. Look, you probably don't watch that much basketball in England, but I can tell you right now Damon Jones is NOT underrated. He plays bad defense, and is a streaky shooter. <div class="quote_poster">Quote:</div><div class="quote_post">He shot 43% from the three point land last season with the Heat</div> That's what happens when you get to play with Shaq. <div class="quote_poster">Quote:</div><div class="quote_post">LeBrons teammates are extremely overlooked as a bunch of nobodies.</div> So are Kobe's.
<div class="quote_poster">Quoting Bobcats:</div><div class="quote_post">Aha. Look, you probably don't watch that much basketball in England, but I can tell you right now Damon Jones is NOT underrated. He plays bad defense, and is a streaky shooter.</div> If he's a streaky shooter your trying to say that one night he shots 20% and the next he shoots around 70%? That's the only way he can be defined as "streaky" with his high 3 point shooting percentage. According to 82games.com, his net points per 100 possessions are larger on the court than off the court. Also the website shows that the Cavs have larger leads when he plays then when he doesn't. So yeh, I don't really know which game you are watching but he does more positive for the team then bad. <div class="quote_poster">Quoting Bobcats:</div><div class="quote_post">Decent? I think his numbers since the All-star break have been better than 'decent'.</div> He's averaging 16/9 since February. The only difference is he's been more consistant. I wouldn't consider 16/9 above decent. <div class="quote_poster">Quoting Bobcats:</div><div class="quote_post">Yes he is. He's had several games when he's been a few assists and few rebounds shy of a triple double.</div> Several is not all. He's not a triple double threat every night, he's a triple double threat every 3 games. Even when you do look at his triple doubles, his points drop down to around 10 or 11 points from 15. <div class="quote_poster">Quoting Bobcats:</div><div class="quote_post">Can you read? Here, let me point it out to you again.</div> <div class="quote_poster">Quoting Bobcats:</div><div class="quote_post">You make it sound like Kobe has nothing to work with at all. He has Lamar Odom who is a triple double threat every night, and Kwame Brown, one of the best post defenders in the NBA. Not to mention, his coach is one of the greatest of all time. </div> I can still name 20 post defenders better then Kwame Brown. I don't know why you are stating "OMG U CANNOT READZZ11" when clearly I answered the question. <div class="quote_poster">Quoting Bobcats:</div><div class="quote_post">That's what happens when you get to play with Shaq.</div> The current main 3 point shooters on the Heat team, Williams and Walker have had their 3 point % increase by a total of 8%, its hardly anything. So to sum all this up, I guess alot of the supposed statements you mentioned have stats to prove they are wrong.
<div class="quote_poster">Quote:</div><div class="quote_post">He has Lamar Odom who is a triple double threat every night, and Kwame Brown, one of the best post defenders in the NBA.</div> Thats pretty funny.
<div class="quote_poster">Quoting Laker_fan:</div><div class="quote_post">I can still name 20 post defenders better then Kwame Brown.</div> Name them.
<div class="quote_poster">Quoting Laker_fan:</div><div class="quote_post">If he's a streaky shooter your trying to say that one night he shots 20% and the next he shoots around 70%? That's the only way he can be defined as "streaky" with his high 3 point shooting percentage.</div> How about his pitiful overall FG%? 4-8, 0-5, 4-7, 1-6, 1-3, 2-2, 0-4, 2-6, 2-4, 4-8. Those are his shooting performances over his last 10 games. Your telling me that's not inconsistent? <div class="quote_poster">Quote:</div><div class="quote_post">So yeh, I don't really know which game you are watching but he does more positive for the team then bad.</div> I didn't say he was a horrible player and the Cavs would be better off without him. He's just overrated. He's making 4 million a year and he's an inconsistent/streaky shooter with bad defense. <div class="quote_poster">Quote:</div><div class="quote_post">He's averaging 16/9 since February. The only difference is he's been more consistant. I wouldn't consider 16/9 above decent.</div> He's averaging 16/9, plus averaging over 5 assists. Those are pretty damn good numbers if you ask me. <div class="quote_poster">Quote:</div><div class="quote_post">Several is not all. He's not a triple double threat every night, he's a triple double threat every 3 games. Even when you do look at his triple doubles, his points drop down to around 10 or 11 points from 15.</div> Whatever, this isn't even important, I'm not going to bother arguing about that. <div class="quote_poster">Quote:</div><div class="quote_post">I can still name 20 post defenders better then Kwame Brown. I don't know why you are stating "OMG U CANNOT READZZ11" when clearly I answered the question.</div> How many Laker games do you see a year? If you've seen more than 5, you'd know Kwame is a great defender. Please though, I'm curious, name 20 players who are better post defenders than Kwame. <div class="quote_poster">Quote:</div><div class="quote_post">The current main 3 point shooters on the Heat team, Williams and Walker have had their 3 point % increase by a total of 8%, its hardly anything.</div> Jason Williams is having the best shooting year of his career, and Walker is having one his best shooting seasons ever (still not good by any means). Shaq gives both of these guys a ton of open looks. Also, is it a coincidence that these guys are having good shooting seasons (by their standards), and Damon Jones shooting numbers are way down? <div class="quote_poster">Quote:</div><div class="quote_post">So to sum all this up, I guess alot of the supposed statements you mentioned have stats to prove they are wrong.</div> Stats are nice, but they don't tell the whole story, you have to watch the games too. I watch a ton of basketball and know what I am talking about.
<div class="quote_poster">Quoting philip2136:</div><div class="quote_post">your one badass kobe hater og15</div> I'm not sure why my name is being mentioned, I made one post in this thread, and Kobe isn't on a losing team is he? I've never considered 45 wins a "losing team". Also no I don't hate Kobe, I'm not a "Kobe fan", but I have no more or less feelings towards him than a guy like Lebron, Dirk, or Carmelo etc. I think people just don't like hearing the truth about situations.
<div class="quote_poster">Quoting Bobcats:</div><div class="quote_post">Stats are nice, but they don't tell the whole story, you have to watch the games too. I watch a ton of basketball and know what I am talking about.</div> So you are trying to say that LeBrons stats of 31/7/7 don't tell the whole story? Contradiction. It's pretty obvious that the Damon Jones defensive stats prove that he does more good then harm on the court. <div class="quote_poster">Quoting Bobcats:</div><div class="quote_post">Jason Williams is having the best shooting year of his career, and Walker is having one his best shooting seasons ever (still not good by any means). Shaq gives both of these guys a ton of open looks. Also, is it a coincidence that these guys are having good shooting seasons (by their standards), and Damon Jones shooting numbers are way down?</div> Williams' shooting is up by 0.029. I would hardly call that a huge improvement. Damon Jones is shooting 5% less that last season, I would hardly call that "way down." Also, Damon Jones does alot of things that don't show up in the stat book, as quoted by LeBron James. I agree Shaq opens up alot of things but its clear that Damon isn't as bad of a player as you are making him out to be. <div class="quote_poster">Quoting Bobcats:</div><div class="quote_post">He's averaging 16/9, plus averaging over 5 assists. Those are pretty damn good numbers if you ask me.</div> Actually, he averaged 15/9/5 and I would hardly call them "damn good numbers." That are good numbers but not huge numbers. Larry Hughes averaged 16/5/4 and he's injured. <div class="quote_poster">Quoting Bobcats:</div><div class="quote_post">How many Laker games do you see a year? If you've seen more than 5, you'd know Kwame is a great defender. Please though, I'm curious, name 20 players who are better post defenders than Kwame.</div> I see 8 a year and its pretty obvious that you are being biased against Kobe if you think Kwame is one of the best post defenders in the NBA. Firstly, he averages while Big Z averages 16/8 and 2 blocks. Kwame averages 7/7 with 0.6 blocks. Heres a list of 20 better post defenders than Kwame Brown: Kevin Garnett Tim Duncan Shaquille O'Neal Jermaine O'Neal Ben Wallace Dwight Howard Yao Ming Elton Brand Marcus Camby Pau Gasol Dirk Nowitski Alonzo Mourning Emeka Okufor Chris Webber Zydrunis Ilgalskus Brad Miller Chris Kaman Tyson Chandler Gerald Wallace Rasheed Wallace A few of them are questionable, but there is now way he's top 15. I would hardly call something below top 15 "one of the best."
<div class="quote_poster">Quote:</div><div class="quote_post">Kevin Garnett Tim Duncan Shaquille O'Neal Jermaine O'Neal Ben Wallace Dwight Howard Yao Ming Elton Brand Marcus Camby Pau Gasol Dirk Nowitski Alonzo Mourning Emeka Okufor Chris Webber Zydrunis Ilgalskus Brad Miller Chris Kaman Tyson Chandler Gerald Wallace Rasheed Wallace</div> Not better post defenders than Kwame. In terms of overall interior defense, some of the highlighted guys are better, but Kwame is one of the best man to man post defenders in the league, that's something he's had since he was a Wizard. Guys like Yao, Chandler, and Camby are all better help defenders, but man to man, Kwame is better than them by either a big or small margin. Shaq also hasn't really been much defensively, so depending on what you guys mean, only about 9 guys in the list are "better" defenders.
Gerald Wallace is not a post defender, he's a good help side shot blocker like a Kirilenko or Josh Smith is, but calling him a post defender is absurd.
As I said, a few of them are questionable, however, I would say Big Z and Miller are better post defenders. That would make Kwame 16th. I wouldn't call that "one of the best." Yao, Chandler and Camby change alot of shots in the post so I wouldn't call Kwame better than them. As far as Shaq is concerned, there is no chance Kwame is a better post defender than him. Shaq is still top 5.
<div class="quote_poster">Quote:</div><div class="quote_post">So you are trying to say that LeBrons stats of 31/7/7 don't tell the whole story? Contradiction. It's pretty obvious that the Damon Jones defensive stats prove that he does more good then harm on the court.</div> Damon Jones is a bad defender and an inconsistent shooter. End of story. <div class="quote_poster">Quote:</div><div class="quote_post">Williams' shooting is up by 0.029. I would hardly call that a huge improvement. Damon Jones is shooting 5% less that last season, I would hardly call that "way down." Also, Damon Jones does alot of things that don't show up in the stat book, as quoted by LeBron James. I agree Shaq opens up alot of things but its clear that Damon isn't as bad of a player as you are making him out to be. </div> Williams' shooting is up by 0.029? What the hell are you talking about? His overall shooting % is up by 3, and his 3 PT % is up by 5. Also, Damon Jones does a lot of things that don't show up in the stat book? Like what? BTW, LeBron James' shooting % went from 41% to 47% in 04-05, is that hardly going up? You make it sound like 5% is nothing. Point is, Damon Jones is a one-dimensional player who is a poor defender. That's all their is to it. <div class="quote_poster">Quote:</div><div class="quote_post">Actually, he averaged 15/9/5 and I would hardly call them "damn good numbers." That are good numbers but not huge numbers. Larry Hughes averaged 16/5/4 and he's injured.</div> Well, you have to realize, numbers like that from a SF/PF are rare nowadays. He's one of the most versatile players in the league, and 16/9/5 is is pretty good IMO. <div class="quote_poster">Quote:</div><div class="quote_post">I see 8 a year and its pretty obvious that you are being biased against Kobe if you think Kwame is one of the best post defenders in the NBA. Firstly, he averages while Big Z averages 16/8 and 2 blocks. Kwame averages 7/7 with 0.6 blocks.</div> Man to man post defense has nothing to do with stats, it's just trying to stop your man one on one. Sure, Kwame should average more BPG, but you don't see Bruce Bowen averaging over 2 SPG, yet he is still one of the best defenders in the NBA. <div class="quote_poster">Quote:</div><div class="quote_post">Heres a list of 20 better post defenders than Kwame Brown: Kevin Garnett Tim Duncan Shaquille O'Neal Jermaine O'Neal Ben Wallace Dwight Howard Yao Ming Elton Brand Marcus Camby Pau Gasol Dirk Nowitski Alonzo Mourning Emeka Okufor Chris Webber Zydrunis Ilgalskus Brad Miller Chris Kaman Tyson Chandler Gerald Wallace Rasheed Wallace A few of them are questionable, but there is now way he's top 15. I would hardly call something below top 15 "one of the best."</div> Wow, that's funny. I like how you threw in Gerald Wallace just because you couldn't think of anymore big men. Are some of those guys better overall defenders? Yes, but Kwame can defend the post better than those 10 guys. So first, it was no way he was top 20. Now it's now way he's top 15. Well theirs 10 that arn't as good as Kwame. Let me ask you this, why is Phil Jackson keeping Kwame in instead of giving the starting job back to Chris Mihm? Is it because of his stellar offensive game? Think about it.
<div class="quote_poster">Quoting Bobcats:</div><div class="quote_post">Damon Jones is a bad defender and an inconsistent shooter. End of story.</div> He's not a bad defender. Check 82games.com. <div class="quote_poster">Quoting Bobcats:</div><div class="quote_post">Williams' shooting is up by 0.029? What the hell are you talking about? His overall shooting % is up by 3, and his 3 PT % is up by 5. Also, Damon Jones does a lot of things that don't show up in the stat book? Like what? BTW, LeBron James' shooting % went from 41% to 47% in 04-05, is that hardly going up? You make it sound like 5% is nothing. Point is, Damon Jones is a one-dimensional player who is a poor defender. That's all their is to it. </div> 0.029 is the same as 3%. It's actually 2.9%. 5% is barely anything when you don't shoot the ball much. Again, according to 82games.com Jones isn't a bad defender. <div class="quote_poster">Quoting Bobcats:</div><div class="quote_post">Well, you have to realize, numbers like that from a SF/PF are rare nowadays. He's one of the most versatile players in the league, and 16/9/5 is is pretty good IMO. </div> I think they are good numbers, but they are nowhere near "all star" numbers as you've made them out to be. LeBron has Big Z putting up good numbers along with Marshall and Hughes for the small period he played. <div class="quote_poster">Quoting Bobcats:</div><div class="quote_post">Man to man post defense has nothing to do with stats, it's just trying to stop your man one on one. Sure, Kwame should average more BPG, but you don't see Bruce Bowen averaging over 2 SPG, yet he is still one of the best defenders in the NBA.</div> Kwame is not a defensive stopper if thats what your trying to make him out to be. Big Z > Kwame Brown. LeBron has a better 7 footer than Kobe. As you stated, Shaq opens up the scoring percentage, hence LeBrons scoring percentage is better because he has a better bigger man. <div class="quote_poster">Quoting Bobcats:</div><div class="quote_post">Wow, that's funny. I like how you threw in Gerald Wallace just because you couldn't think of anymore big men. Are some of those guys better overall defenders? Yes, but Kwame can defend the post better than those 10 guys. So first, it was no way he was top 20. Now it's now way he's top 15. Well theirs 10 that arn't as good as Kwame. Let me ask you this, why is Phil Jackson keeping Kwame in instead of giving the starting job back to Chris Mihm? Is it because of his stellar offensive game? Think about it.</div> Howard, Okufor, Big Z and Miller are better post defenders. Chandler is arguable. You even admitted that they are overall better defenders, so that would mean that defensivly, Kwame isn't as great but he's around 15th when it comes to the post. He's around 20th when it comes to big men overall. This proves that Kobe really doens't have a great supporting cast. Phil Jackson is keeping Kwame Brown because he's played well the last 10 games. 10 games of decent play doesn't account for the other 72 that he didn't play well, it doesn't mean Kobe has a better supporting cast because he played well for 10 games at the end.
Brad Miller is not a good post defender, he hits people, but don't know where you got him being a good defender from. Ilguaskas can block shots because he's tall and has length, but is not a good individual defender. Okafor is fairly good, though not as good as you would've expected when he was coming out of college.
<div class="quote_poster">Quoting Laker_fan:</div><div class="quote_post">Kevin Garnett Tim Duncan Shaquille O'Neal Jermaine O'Neal Ben Wallace Dwight Howard Yao Ming Elton Brand Marcus Camby Pau Gasol Dirk Nowitski Alonzo Mourning Emeka Okufor Chris Webber Zydrunis Ilgalskus Brad Miller Chris Kaman Tyson Chandler Gerald Wallace Rasheed Wallace</div> You don't have to be a superstar to have great post defense. Some of those are a little suspect but you left out Theo Ratliff, Kenyon Martin, PJ Brown, and Cliff Robinson who are among the best post defenders in the league as well as guys like Dalembert, Jeff Foster, Brendan Haywood, Erick Dampier (yeah he sucks but hes a good defender), and Przybilla. That should make over 20 guys that are better post defenders than Kwame Brown.
<div class="quote_poster">Quoting vcwannabe15:</div><div class="quote_post">The MVP award deserves to go to the NBA's best player, not the NBA's best player on a top team. But how come they always look at the team record before they look at the player's stats or how they play?</div> Well if that's your criteria then Michael Jordan would have won the MVP almost every single season of his career.
