Source: Nash will be MVP

<div class="quote_poster">Quoting og15:</div><div class="quote_post">
Who said it's farfetched? I said it's stupid how people talk about that nonsense as opposed to just saying Nash is playing great and leading his team. There are many "cast away" players that end up doing good in another system or team, it's nothing special to Nash. The Suns also have a system that makes guys who have at least some offensive ability shine offensively. The Kings have a similar system too in that regard. Just look at Eddie House who people use as an example, on the Kings last year he scored less, but shot 45.8% FG and 45.2% 3PT in comparison to his 42.4% FG and 38.9% 3PT this season. Is he better because he's shooting more shots [#5 in the NBA in FGA/48 mins]</div>

you say its "stupid" and that its "nonsense"...gee, how silly of me to use the word farfetched. i didnt JUST talk about that "nonsense" i talked about what you call nonesense, AND the great season he had and led his team to. but anyways...

its my opinion that nash has helped improve the games of the people around him. you're right, there are lots of cast away players that do better in other systems...in THIS PARTICULAR case, it seems as though the type of game nash has, he's giving players wide open looks at the basket, and dishing the ball so much, they're getting more shots, and better looks. call my opinon stupid and nonsense all you want...i agree with what you say, but i also think that nash has contributed to the improvments those players have made

by starters minutes (and here i should have chosen my words more carefully) i mean, diaw started plenty of times in atl. i had a chance to see him play quite a few times, and the impression i got was that he wasnt much more then a srub. whether his play this year is a surprise or not, its certainly a big improvment...most improved in the league to be exact

 

<div class="quote_poster">Quote:</div><div class="quote_post">Don't try to act like Amare doesn't benefit from playing with Nash.</div>

Why did you only quote part of my post and post something like that?

<div class="quote_poster">Quoting Bobcats:</div><div class="quote_post">Nash makes Amare better</div>

 

Kobe was robbed once again. 35 ppg and he made the playoffs with the players he had around him. He broke all kinds of records. While Nash avg 18 ppg and some game he had 0 Points with 5 assists and the game after that he had 6 points with 2-10 shooting or something like that...Mvp numbers huh? And isnt the MVP award an INDIVIDUAL award?

 

<div class="quote_poster">Quote:</div><div class="quote_post">its my opinion that nash has helped improve the games of the people around him. you're right, there are lots of cast away players that do better in other systems...in THIS PARTICULAR case, it seems as though the type of game nash has, he's giving players wide open looks at the basket, and dishing the ball so much, they're getting more shots, and better looks. call my opinon stupid and nonsense all you want...i agree with what you say, but i also think that nash has contributed to the improvments those players have made</div>
Outside of Diaw, no one else actually improved. Getting more shots because your new team in general shoots more is not improving your game.

 

<div class="quote_poster">Quoting emannen:</div><div class="quote_post">Marion-career year
Bell- Career year
Barbosa- Career year
Jones- Career year
Diaw-Career year
House- Career year

Good Players??? YES!

Nash makes these players that much better!</div>
Wrong, Nash didn't make those guys better. The Suns' system make those guy better. If Nash makes his teammate around him better, why didn't he do it when he was with the Mav? idiot.

Nash doesn't deserve to win it, Kobe and Lebron do considering the amount of scoring load they need to carry their team. However, since Nash is white and he is Mr. Nice Guy, the media love the guy and he got the team winning to back it up. That is the main reason why he wins it. To say he deserves isn't right, Kobe and Lebron deserve more than he is.

Anyway, like I said, the MVP is overrated. If people looking back 10 years later, nobody will notice Nash is winning the MVP in 2006, instead people will notice how great Kobe and Lebron dominates the league in 2006.

 

<div class="quote_poster">Quoting og15:</div><div class="quote_post">Outside of Diaw, no one else actually improved. Getting more shots because your new team in general shoots more is not improving your game.</div>
About the only thing I'd credit Nash with in their improvement would be the quality of the shots they recieve. Sure some of it still has to do with the system, but if a player hustles Nash is able to give them the ball where they're comfortable.

 

dj_premium, maybe you haven't been exposed to the Nash overattion that I have, but when people say things like "with Nash the Mavs would've won 70 games this season", "b/c of Nash, Tim Thomas will average 20 PPG on the Suns", "Nash made Diaw good", "Nash made Marion and Amare good", it get's a little interesting.

Nash is good, very good, but no one makes a bad player good. People said this with Kidd and Kmart, but really if you look at Kmarts numbers, he shot a better percentage in Denver, and went down 1.1 PPG in less minutes. He was never a big scorer in the first place. You don't go from having no talent to being good because you play with a certain player. If Milt played with Nash, he would stil suck as a scorer. Nikoloz Tskitishvili did not become good because he got to play with Nash, he's still a practice player.

Depending on what your talent is, playing with someone can bring it out better, I don't think I have to tell anyone what Marion, Amare, Tim Thomas, and even Raja Bell could do before playing with Nash do I?

But with a guy like Diaw, his main talents are his passing, defense, and his versatility, things that aren't really improved by a guy like Nash. Diaw is assisted less than Carter was on the Nets last season, he's not a guy who's game is based on recieving passes and scoring, he prefers to be the one making the passes. He was criticized in ATL for overpassing, even on the Suns this happened, but at least the Suns have guys who will make the shots as opposed to guys who can't finish the plays. With most guys, what brings out their talents best, is a coach, or a system. Just like Nash's abilities were brought out by D'Antoni, other players abilities can go through the same transition.


<div class="quote_poster">Quote:</div><div class="quote_post">Nash didn't make those guys better? You think if Chauncy Billups, Stephon Marbury, Baron Davis, Steve Francis or any other top PG were in that system instead of NAsh they would see the same results? Now you're just generating knocks on Nash out of nowhere so that you can call people idiots? You're probably the most blatantly biased person in the whole thread so you have no right to call anyone an idiot. </div>
You sir are correct, though PG's like Jason Kidd, Chris Paul, and Mike Bibby wouldn't fail in that regard, though they would do it in a different way. Billups while not as creative playmaking wise has the decision making and shooting ability to be the leader in that system, but not to the same level. You mentioned the guys who aren't known for their teamwork, or in Baron's case doesn't know the meaning of shot selection.


<div class="quote_poster">Quote:</div><div class="quote_post">About the only thing I'd credit Nash with in their improvement would be the quality of the shots they recieve. Sure some of it still has to do with the system, but if a player hustles Nash is able to give them the ball where they're comfortable.</div>
I agree 100%, what Nash does is decrease how much guys who shouldn't be handling the ball have to handle the ball. What this does is decrease the turnover ratio of the whole team, and have guys doing less one on one creating. I don't disagree with this at all, but people seem to think Nash can make any scrub just score, passing to a guy that can't shoot will not make him better. The guys you pass to are still responsible for making the shots.

 

<div class="quote_poster">Quote:</div><div class="quote_post">Look at guys like Eddie House, Boris Diaw, Raja Bell, and James Jones who weren't even recognizable names to casual NBA fans before the season. </div>
Depending on how "casual" you consider casual, I'd say most still aren't recognizable to the casual fan. And people fail to recognize (not you, just talking generally) that all of these guys were brought in this offseason. If Boris Diaw was a scrub, the Suns wouldn't have given up Joe Johnson for him. House, Bell and Jones (and T. Thomas later) were all picked up because they would fit the system. They're not just random players that have been buried on the Suns' roster. Nash is without a doubt helping pad their stats, there's no way to deny that, but it's all about the system.

 

<div class="quote_poster">Quoting Run BJM:</div><div class="quote_post">Nash didn't make those guys better? You think if Chauncy Billups, Stephon Marbury, Baron Davis, Steve Francis or any other top PG were in that system instead of NAsh they would see the same results? Now you're just generating knocks on Nash out of nowhere so that you can call people idiots? You're probably the most blatantly biased person in the whole thread so you have no right to call anyone an idiot.

Nash wasn't as good in Dallas because he wasn't the centerpiece who would always have the ball in his hands. He had Dirk and Finley who needed the ball to be effective. Nash is the system in Phoenix, theres no system without Nash. Look at how many of his teammates are having career years. Look at guys like Eddie House, Boris Diaw, Raja Bell, and James Jones who weren't even recognizable names to casual NBA fans before the season.

Like I said before, Kobe is getting the scoring title for averaging 35 ppg and scoring 81 and whatever else he did. The MVP award is for legit contenders or teams who are at least in the upper half of the playoff standings. No player should get the award unless hes on a contending team.</div>
haha, what an idiot. The Mavs and the Suns run a similar system. To say he didn't have the ball in his hand alot is pretty stupid, he was their PG for god sake! Coincidently every team he went to, he always had shooters around him. Let me give you an example why I think Nash shouldn't won it. Back when the Nets was the top contender in the East, Kidd did exactly the same things Nash did, made the players around him look better than they really are. (Ex Kenyon Martin looked like a god PF and Richard Jefferson's an all-star) Wow guesses what? Kidd didn?t win any MVP during his Nets back to back NBA Final. So tell me, why Nash should?ve won it? The winning record? Make his teammates better? So please shut up, and listen for once. If you want a best player on a winning team for the MVP, give it to Billups. If you want the best player in the league for MVP, give it to Kobe. If you want a younger gun, go with Lebron.

What so disgusting about it are people didn?t give Kobe and the Lakers a chance in the playoff, guess what? He single handedly brought his team into the playoff now. Back when Stephen Marbury was with the Suns, they are a pretty dangerous team with him, Shawn Marion, and a young Amare Stourdemire. Remembered? They almost knock off the Spurs in that series. Nash was just lucky that every team he went to, he got shooters to compliment his game. And don?t be ridiculous, JQ was a ?decent? player throughout his career with or without Nash. Also guess what? Joe Johnson did the same or better with or without Nash, how do you explain that to me?

 

<div class="quote_poster">Quote:</div><div class="quote_post">The Mavs and the Suns run a similar system</div>
No actually they don't.

 

<div class="quote_poster">Quoting og15:</div><div class="quote_post">No actually they don't.</div>
Yees they do, they're both a fast-pace, trying to outscore their opponent by scoring. Although the Mavs getting better in defense, but they still rely heavily on scoring to win.

 

Scoring a lot isn't a system.

 

<div class="quote_poster">Quoting kobe4life:</div><div class="quote_post">Yees they do, they're both a fast-pace, trying to outscore their opponent by scoring. Although the Mavs getting better in defense, but they still rely heavily on scoring to win.</div>
They do both try to outscore their opponents by scoring...but that's what competetive sports are. Having more points than your opponent.

The Suns' offense is completely Nash-oriented, with almost nothing but drive-kick-shoot. The Mavs is mainly isolation, pick and roll, posting up, etc. You'll notice this in the fact that their starting PG averaged 3.8 APG, and the Mavs are almost at the bottom of the league in team APG.

 

LoL good Job KOBE4LIFE keep on killing them.

 

<div class="quote_poster">Quoting Chutney:</div><div class="quote_post">Scoring a lot isn't a system.</div>
I'm emphasizing scoring as the main aspect for their run-n-gun system of offense. Both sides (Mavs & Suns) are loaded with shooters all over the place. Both can win by outscoring their opponent.

 

<div class="quote_poster">Quoting kobe4life:</div><div class="quote_post">I'm emphasizing scoring as the main aspect for their run-n-gun system of offense. Both sides (Mavs & Suns) are loaded with shooters all over the place. Both can win by outscoring their opponent.</div>
Again thats more of a philosophy that the Mavs, Suns, and many teams, for that matter, share. The system is the way in which they get their points and run their offense, and they are not the same.

I think the only way to combat this irrational hate on Steve Nash's MVP is by calling everyone who disagrees a Nash-hater.

 

Running fast paced does not mean they run the same system. Do you think Nash wasn't capable of averaging 10 APG on the Mavs? The thing is that Don Nelson didn't run a system where the PG did almost all the playmaking. Sacramento also plays a fast pace, but it's not close to the system the Suns run.

What the Mavs run is a mismatch system. They have a lot of different versatile scorers. They run the pick and roll, and have some movement, then look for the mismatch based on how the defense has switched. They actually run a lot of isolations as opposed to ball movement. They were better with Don Nelson in terms of movement than now with Avery where it's all about the one on one.

As a PG in Sacramento, your APG will actually go down, though the whole teams APG will be high. In Sacramento, the game is ran through the frontcourt positions. You have the big man with the ball in the high post, you have some backdoor cuts, some highlows etc etc. They also run some pick and rolls, and have a lot of handoffs with the big man giving a shooter the ball from his high post position, then screening to get them an open shot when they get it. Obviously there's a lot more to it, but the offenses aren't the same.

On Phoenix, they run an isolation pick and roll with the PG driving a looking to kick it out. This year with Raja and Jones, they also run them off some screens to curl mid-range or to the three point like for a catch and shoot. What I mean by isolation pick and roll is that everyone isolates the screener and the PG either at the elbow or high, and fan out to the corner or wing. This then opens up the middle of the court. If the defense converges, they get an open shot, if they don't, the PG can drive and score, or the screener will recieve the ball back, and will only have one help defender. When it's Marion and Amare, one help defender means nothing most of the time. One of the things they're also great at doing is that guys set the screen, and don't hold it, but quickly cut to the basket, that 1 second difference gives an opening to get the ball back with their man still converging on the PG.

Now, this is where the difference comes with them an other teams. On other teams, if a guy doesn't get an open shot, he might try to go one on one and make something happen. Phoenix does not do this most of the time, unless it's designed. The only guys that really go one on one on Phoenix are Nash, Diaw, Barbosa, and Tim Thomas in the post, basically the guys that can. If you don't get the shot, you get it to a playmaker, or to whoever is the PG, and run the pick and roll again.

This year also with Diaw, they run some high post stuff. Diaw getting the ball high, Marion coming to screen, and him throwing him a lob is probably the nicest one. They also run some pick and rolls with Diaw and Nash, and try to get mismatches to get Diaw in the post against a smaller guy, etc etc