<div class="quote_poster">Quote:</div><div class="quote_post">Of course they were brought in because they fit "the system" but is the system just as effective with any other PG?</div> No, it isn't. The Suns made that system for Steve Nash, and it really is his system. But being put in a tailor-made system doesn't make you the MVP (imo). I credit that more to the coach, and more importantly the GM, who are really the most important part of the team (or was, in the GM's case). <div class="quote_poster">Quote:</div><div class="quote_post">They don't need Nash but I'm sure they'd rather have him than continue playing one on one for half of their offensive possessions.</div> I don't think so. Nash makes things a whole lot easier on offense, but he also makes things a lot, LOT harder on defense. Don't think Avery's the only reason the Mavs became a better defensive team.
<div class="quote_poster">Quote:</div><div class="quote_post">Of course they were brought in because they fit "the system" but is the system just as effective with any other PG? Nash isn't an interchangable piece in there, the only other PG that could be as effective in that "system" is Kidd but Kidd doesn't have the ability to score whenever his team needs it like Nash does. You think Tim Thomas goes 8 for 9 or whatever it was in their last game against the Lakers without Nash? </div> You're right, Kidd can't score like Nash, but Nash can't play "D" like Kidd, and "D" is what gonna make you win championship. Tim Thomas had always been a talent player that can shoot, post, and drive. IT's just that the guy is lazy, that's why the Bulls giving up on him. Nobody expected Luke to shoot like he did in Game 1, does that giving Kobe the whole credit? <div class="quote_poster">Quote:</div><div class="quote_post">No one expected the Suns to be in the playoffs at the beginning of the year when everyone knew Amare would be out half the season (he turned out only oming back for 2 games) but they are the third best team in the west. Is that because of the system?</div> Wrong, the so called "experts" didn't think the Suns would be "this good" without Amare after they're having an incredible season last year which make sense afterall, you can't win the same after 1 of your major player get injure. To say they have no chance in the playoff is completely misleading, the Suns still have Marion and Nash. On the other hand, only 12 out of 16 experts (I think) wrote the Lakers off in the playoff picture. <div class="quote_poster">Quote:</div><div class="quote_post">He had Finley and Dirk who could both create themselves, Nash wasn't relied upon to literally get all of his teammates shots like he is in Phoenix.</div> Wrong Diaw, Barbosa, Marion can create their own shot with or without Nash. Did you even watch the Suns? I'm curious! The reason Barbosa, Diaw, Marion doesn't need to create their own shot is because Nash is so unselfish that all of the other guys know that Nash will pass them the ball if they just get wide open, and of course they must be willing to knock them down at the perimeter too. It saves your work to create your shot when someone can do it for you. Ex. Lamar Odom and Kobe Bryant do the same except our guys can't shoot like the Suns. <div class="quote_poster">Quote:</div><div class="quote_post">Oh come on, the East was a total joke back then, any half decent team can get a good record. They weren't expected to miss the playoffs either, they were among the best teams in a terrible conference.</div> Wrong, althought the East is a total joke back then, they still have a better Indiana Pacers team with Ron Artest and Jermaine O'neal compare to the current Pacers. Detroit was still a decent team (not the best yet). Let me remind you, the reason Kidd didn't won that year was because he got overshadowed by Duncan's Spurs season, and then KG's Wolves season. <div class="quote_poster">Quote:</div><div class="quote_post">OMG the playoffs! The Lakers were gone from the playoffs for one season, its not an amazing feat that he got them into the second lowest seed in the playoffs, and he apparently couldnt even do that without Phil Jackson. Why not give Elton Brand the MVP since his team hadn't been to the playoffs for so long. Hey lets reserve and MVP for Baron Davis or Jason Richardson too if the Warriors ever make the playoffs.</div> Wrong, it is amazing for a guy to carry a JV team to a playoff in the 7th seed. 45 wins in the West arguably is better than 50 wins in the East. Last year, Lakers didn't make the playoff due to Kobe's injury, and then Lamar. Elton Brand's Clippers didn't get to teh playoff until Sam Cassel came along. Is Sam the MVP of the Clippers or Elton? that can be debatable. Baron did have an MVP candidate for a short period of times when he was with the old NO Hornets. <div class="quote_poster">Quote:</div><div class="quote_post">He did have good shooters on both the Mavs and Suns. The difference between them is that the "shooters" on the Mavs could create their own shots, they don't need Nash to attract the entire defense so that they can get a decent look. In Phoenix alot of guys need Nash to handle the ball and create opportunities for them because they can't do it themselves. Look at the Mavs now, half of their offense is just iso plays to Dirk, Stackhouse, Terry, etc.</div> Wrong, look above what I said. <div class="quote_poster">Quote:</div><div class="quote_post">LoL good Job KOBE4LIFE keep on killing them.</div> lol, Hey I'm doing my best. This guys didn't prove any points to make me believe why Nash should be MVP when there's other guy who is more deserving than he is.
<div class="quote_poster">Quoting Salim For 3:</div><div class="quote_post">No, it isn't. The Suns made that system for Steve Nash, and it really is his system. But being put in a tailor-made system doesn't make you the MVP (imo). I credit that more to the coach, and more importantly the GM, who are really the most important part of the team (or was, in the GM's case).</div> I guess playing in a tailor made system doesnt make you the MVP but it definitely doesn't make you disqualified for the MVP. Kobe is in the triangle offense thats altered for him, is he more worthy because the triangle wasn't designed for him. Dirk runs pick and rolls and isos most of the game, those werent made for him so is he the MVP because those plays weren't made specifically for him. For some reason I feel like I might be misinterpreting you (sorry if I am) but I don't think you can knock Nash for playing in a system and on a team that is designed for him. <div class="quote_poster">Quote:</div><div class="quote_post">I don't think so. Nash makes things a whole lot easier on offense, but he also makes things a lot, LOT harder on defense. Don't think Avery's the only reason the Mavs became a better defensive team.</div> Valid point, Nash is a defensive liability but its not really a gaping weakness on his team in Phoenix. Nash leaving probably did affect the Mavs' defense for the better but they also got rid of other guys who only played offense like Antoine Walker and Antawn Jamison and replaced them with guys like Daniels, Howard, Dampier, Diop, Griffin and they changed coaches so that is much more to credit for the Mavericks imrpoved defense IMO.
The reason I talk about the system with Steve Nash is just that, that's usually the basis for which people consider him the MVP. A lot of people think he's turned total scrubs into stars, when really it's just that the GM brought in guys to fit the coach's system. I don't talk about the Lakers' system because the Lakers don't win consistently - there's never a set plan to win because it's all about Kobe giving them enough scoring to win the game. And with the Mavs, it's all about individual matchups - but Dirk is clearly the best player, and almost had the best record in the west. With the whole Nash in Dallas thing, the main reason I (and most Dallas fans) don't want him back, is because he was our man for years and years, and we were never anything better than a western conference finals hopeful. I'm sure in a few years Phoenix will be fed up with it the same way.
<div class="quote_poster">Quote:</div><div class="quote_post">You're right, Kidd can't score like Nash, but Nash can't play "D" like Kidd, and "D" is what gonna make you win championship. Tim Thomas had always been a talent player that can shoot, post, and drive. IT's just that the guy is lazy, that's why the Bulls giving up on him. Nobody expected Luke to shoot like he did in Game 1, does that giving Kobe the whole credit? </div> Wow, a legit point. I'll give you that, Nash isn't even close to Kidd on defense but Nash's offense is just as important as Kidd's defense was to NJ. Nash hits plenty of big shots at the end of games, an area which hes better at than Kidd but I don't want to get into Kidd vs. Nash. <div class="quote_poster">Quote:</div><div class="quote_post">Wrong, the so called "experts" didn't think the Suns would be "this good" without Amare after they're having an incredible season last year which make sense afterall, you can't win the same after 1 of your major player get injure. To say they have no chance in the playoff is completely misleading, the Suns still have Marion and Nash. On the other hand, only 12 out of 16 experts (I think) wrote the Lakers off in the playoff picture.</div> IIRC from watching ESPN as well as reading thier articles and SI's articles on playoff predictions almost all of them had LA in and Phoenix out and if Phoenix was in it was a bottom seed. Sure, they had a shot but they weren't expected to make the playoffs. I can't find ESPN's article with each columnist picking their teams to make the playoffs so if anyone can get their hands on it please post it. Not that they have good insight at all but the general public and media expected the Lakers to be in the playoffs and Phoenix to be out. <div class="quote_poster">Quote:</div><div class="quote_post">Wrong Diaw, Barbosa, Marion can create their own shot with or without Nash. Did you even watch the Suns? I'm curious! The reason Barbosa, Diaw, Marion doesn't need to create their own shot is because Nash is so unselfish that all of the other guys know that Nash will pass them the ball if they just get wide open, and of course they must be willing to knock them down at the perimeter too. It saves your work to create your shot when someone can do it for you. Ex. Lamar Odom and Kobe Bryant do the same except our guys can't shoot like the Suns.</div> I'm the one who doesnt watch the Suns? In terms of scoring all Diaw can do is dunk, layup, and hit the midrange jumpshot, is he going to do any of that with success without Nash? Marion could probably get 15 ppg making his own opportunities and Barbosa is mostly a shooter so his shots would be much worse. Marion is shooting 53 percent from the field, Barbosa is shooting 48%, and Diaw is shooting 53%. All are having career highs in FG% and none of them would even sniff 50% shooting if they created their own shots. <div class="quote_poster">Quote:</div><div class="quote_post">Wrong, althought the East is a total joke back then, they still have a better Indiana Pacers team with Ron Artest and Jermaine O'neal compare to the current Pacers. Detroit was still a decent team (not the best yet). Let me remind you, the reason Kidd didn't won that year was because he got overshadowed by Duncan's Spurs season, and then KG's Wolves season.</div> Yeah, there were some alright teams but obviously not as good as the Nets with Kidd, Jefferson, Kittles, and Martin. Kidd was overshadowed by KG and Duncan because their teams were better, just like the Suns are better than the Lakers this year. You can't make it a knock on Nash either that he doesnt have to compete with tougher candidates, blame Stern for taking all the power away from big men. <div class="quote_poster">Quote:</div><div class="quote_post">Wrong, it is amazing for a guy to carry a JV team to a playoff in the 7th seed. 45 wins in the West arguably is better than 50 wins in the East. Last year, Lakers didn't make the playoff due to Kobe's injury, and then Lamar. Elton Brand's Clippers didn't get to teh playoff until Sam Cassel came along. Is Sam the MVP of the Clippers or Elton? that can be debatable. Baron did have an MVP candidate for a short period of times when he was with the old NO Hornets. </div> Sorry, I don't care who you are or your teammates are if your team is the 7th seed no one on there deserves to be MVP. I was just using Brand as a joke but if you want to give it to Sam Cassel for geting the lowly Clips into the playoffs then be my guest. Baron was an MVP candidate on a non-contending team just like Kobe is now. I don't feel like arguing this all night because no one is going to convince anyone else to change their opinions but just keep in mind that when Jordan was scoring 35+ ppg but his team wasn't contending Jordan didn't win the MVP. Kobe can be the MVP once his team is a top seed, he doesnt need to score 35 ppg but if hes the leader on a team that leads the west or their division he'd be tough to vote against for MVP.
Congrats to Nash. This is a debate in which the opposite sides will never agree with one another. It all depends on your definition of an "MVP" and what team you like. Personally, I think an MVP should be a player who has led his team to an exceptional record while putting up big numbers day in and day out. Nash led his team, but his numbers weren't that gaudy when you think of the kind of system the Suns run. Kobe's numbers were insane, but his team wasnt that great. Billups' team had the best record, but that team is so balanced, they would win 50+ with me at PG. So, that leaves two. Dirk Nowitzki and Lebron James. Dirk's team had the better record, Lebron has put up slightly better numbers. Both played as true leaders do, and both are deserving of the award. So, in my opinion, the MVP should've been a toss-up between these two. Of course, i have a Maverick bias, so everyone can already tell who i would be picking if i could vote. However, with that said, Nash deserved it more this year than last. I always liked his game, and it's good to see he is finally getting some recognition
<div class="quote_poster">Quoting og15:</div><div class="quote_post">Are you sure you watched them? He definately didn't, you can't run this kind of offense unless you have finishers and shooters. If the Suns team was: PG: Nash SG: Trenton Hassell SF: Shawn Marion PF: Antonio McDyess C: Steven Hunter </div> That post was so irrevelant and poor written because. Antonio McDyess is a GREAT pick and roll player, and he has a good jumpshot. Shawn Marion isn't a bad shooter. Why would Hunter and Hassel be on Phoneix? Hassel has never been on Phoneix, and Hunter had his best season with Nash offensively. Theres a reason why players shot attempts increase, you guys act like its so easy...as if you were basketball players please. Trust me, theres nothing MORE annoying to playing with a guy who just dribble dribbles dribbles dribbles and dominates the ball for him to be involved in the play and not get the other guys invovled (T'Mac, Kobe, Francis, Iverson, many others, popular trend in the NBA today). To have a guy like Steve Nash, you give mad love back to him, because he sacrafices and gives up him scoring and shooting, for you and your shot attempts. He gives up his talent to put up a high PPG total for his teammates shot attempts. And these shot attempts are clear good open jumpshots. I watched Phoneix in 03. Barbosa was running the show, and they tried to run that offense. The only difference was Marion shot 43% JJ shot 42% Amare shot 47% Barbosa shot 44% The team shot 43% When Nash arrived Phoneix shot 47% Amare shot 56% JJ shot 46% Marion shot 47% Barbosa 47% and amazingly this season...without their best FG shooter, Amare STAT...they still mange to shoot .479 Please, really...this is what seperates Nash from everyone else. Stop looking at "Most talent" Because I wouldn't want to play with anyone who dribble dribbles dribbles looking for his own. That kind of guy would get his culo kicked in my block. Thats why Nash's value remains elite. I thought Jason Kidd should of won the Award a couple of years ago also. I'm tired of MVP awards giving Big Men all the love. I'm happy for Nash, and hopefully most PG's can look at Nash as a figure they can mole their game into, unlike a Kobe, T'Mac, Iverson, Francis.
Difficult to believe that Dirk didn't win it this year. He was not only the best player on a 60 game winner, he was the go-to-guy and almost never had a bad game. The rest of the team complements Dirk, they don't have any other stars. When Howard, Griffin , Daniels and Van Horn, and Harris were all out the Mavs still won games all because of Dirk. He's vastly improved his basketball knowledge, strategy, footwork on defense, footwork on offense and has become the unequivocal leader with a relentless work ethic. I hate to detract from Steve Nash, a unique and skilled player. But Phoenix's success this year was hatched in the general manager and coach's office. Stoudamire went out and that is why Nash won. But he was only a taller version of Shawn Marion and was still prone to turnovers and was still working on a shot other than the dunk. Enter the brains of Mike D'Antonio, a solid choice for coach of the year, Steve Kerr (the talent scout of the Suns), and of course CEO Jerry Colangelo, and with Stoudamire and his 20-30 points per game gone, he was replaced relatively cheaply with three players who average 9-13 points. So Instead of Joe Johnson, Quentin Richardson & Amare Stoudemire putting up big numbers and alot of shots, Diaw blossomed with over 13 points per game with almost as many rebounds as Amare and more than half of Nash's assist total, while Tim Thomas, Kurt Thomas, Barbosa, Raja Bell and James Jones all averaged right at 10 points or better. Sure, Nash makes them all better but that's his job. With the unexpected play of the new roster mates, the defenses couldn't double Nash and he was given a healthy quota of open looks. He doesn't put himself in a position to be hard-fouled like Nowitzki endures every game. And remember, Phoenix had 3 all-stars coming into the year, Nash, Marion and Stoudemire as opposed only to Dirk for Dallas. Nash was able to take the floor every night with another all-star (Marion did miss a few games). Nash had a great year, but Dirk had a better year. Nash lost an all-star, but Dirk didn't have another one his team (yet). Besides Amare, and some minor aches for Marion, Phoenix played healthy. Dallas was beset with injury to key players and it cost them the best record and still won 60 games all because of Dirk. Howard missed at least 15-20 games. Harris missed at least 20 games. Daniels missed at least a third of the season. Van Horn missed several weeks until he broke his hand. Griffin, a gem of a player and defender joined Howard and Daniels and Harris with injuries for much of the Spring. Dirk played better against tougher odds. This should be his MVP year.
I think Nash and the players just fit into D'Antoni system. Marion was already really good before Nash came. Do any of you guys think Nash would have won MVP if Amare was healthy and playing?
<div class="quote_poster">Quoting SP23:</div><div class="quote_post">I think Nash and the players just fit into D'Antoni system. Marion was already really good before Nash came. Do any of you guys think Nash would have won MVP if Amare was healthy and playing?</div> No. It would have been last year all over. Please see my other reasons above. Good things often happen as a result of misfortune. Obtaining Boris Diaw is the most obvious.
Nash deserves it more than Kobe imo, but it's just disturbing to think that the 35 ppg (8th all time, but 35 is rediculous considering the major drop in scoring during recent years) wasn't enough.
<div class="quote_poster">Quote:</div><div class="quote_post">That post was so irrevelant and poor written because. Antonio McDyess is a GREAT pick and roll player, and he has a good jumpshot. Shawn Marion isn't a bad shooter. Why would Hunter and Hassel be on Phoneix? Hassel has never been on Phoneix, and Hunter had his best season with Nash offensively. Theres a reason why players shot attempts increase, you guys act like its so easy...as if you were basketball players please.</div> Who said Antonio McDyess was not a good pick and roll guy and couldn't shoot or that Marion couldn't shoot? The difference is that you don't have the three point shooters and the floor spread as well as it currently is. A mid-range shooter does not spread the floor the same way as a three point shooter. Antonio McDyess does not spread the floor for you when he's on the court. One of the main reasons Phoenix can win without always defending you very well is that they trade 3's for 2's. You score insdie on them, and they answer back with a three. Unless you don't understand what the word IF means, and what a hypothetical situation is, then I don't know why you're questioning the Trenton Hassell thing. I'm saying if they don't have guys who can make shots, they can't run the system. They did not have this system before, and couldn't have because they didn't have the personell to do it. It actually has nothing to do with Hassell really. In addition to shooters, you also need a good PG to run the system, you can't run the system with Barbosa at PG. You need a Nash, Kidd, Paul, Bibby, Billups (though not the same in creative ability), Baron if you could teach him what shot selection means etc. Steven Hunter also had his career scoring year this season with Iverson, so wrong again. Lastly, you DID NOT watch the Suns in 03-04, because I know what they ran, I followed the team all year. They did a lot of iso's with Amare when he played, and a lot of the creating came from Joe Johnson. Marion was even put in a lot more isolation situations than he would like, he likes to play off the ball and find seams to score as opposed to dribbling all day. I have nothing to say about the dribble dribble nonsense, I don't know when I was championing Kobe for MVP anyways, so that's nice. I play basketball too, and it is very annoying, still don't know what that has to do with anything I said. <div class="quote_poster">Quote:</div><div class="quote_post">I'm the one who doesnt watch the Suns? In terms of scoring all Diaw can do is dunk, layup, and hit the midrange jumpshot, is he going to do any of that with success without Nash? Marion could probably get 15 ppg making his own opportunities and Barbosa is mostly a shooter so his shots would be much worse. Marion is shooting 53 percent from the field, Barbosa is shooting 48%, and Diaw is shooting 53%. All are having career highs in FG% and none of them would even sniff 50% shooting if they created their own shots.</div> Not a fair assesment, like already said, Marion with Barbosa at PG averaged 19 PPG, so he's easily capable. Diaw scoring on mid-range, layups, and dunks mean he scores on everything but three's, not sure what's wrong with that. Diaw also has a post game, and is assisted less than the average player (same as Vince Carter), so he can definately score by himself. Without Nash this season he's averged 12.7 PPG on 50% FG, and 12.3 APG. Marion without Nash, 26 PPG on 51% FG. Actually the reason Barbosa's scoring has improved so much this season is also because he's become more of a slasher as opposed to being a shooter. Barbosa like Diaw also doesn't get assisted more than the average player.
<div class="quote_poster">Quoting giftedvisionz:</div><div class="quote_post">Nash deserves it more than Kobe imo, but it's just disturbing to think that the 35 ppg (8th all time, but 35 is rediculous considering the major drop in scoring during recent years) wasn't enough.</div> I am a huge Kobe fan and I still don't think the 81 point game or the scoring title was enough in my mind for Kobe to get the MVP over Nash. I do find it incredibly suspicious that it wasn't a closer race or that Kobe did not get at the very least, more first place votes, if not a second place finish.
Its not a secret alot of the media hates kobe so Iam not suprised... He led the youngest team in the league into the playoffs and has helped mold the Lakers to a solid team. I think he deserved it more then anyone but Congrats to Nash he had a hell of a season aswell.
<div class="quote_poster">Quoting kobe4life:</div><div class="quote_post">haha, what an idiot. The Mavs and the Suns run a similar system. To say he didn't have the ball in his hand alot is pretty stupid, he was their PG for god sake! Coincidently every team he went to, he always had shooters around him. Let me give you an example why I think Nash shouldn't won it. Back when the Nets was the top contender in the East, Kidd did exactly the same things Nash did, made the players around him look better than they really are. (Ex Kenyon Martin looked like a god PF and Richard Jefferson's an all-star) Wow guesses what? Kidd didn?t win any MVP during his Nets back to back NBA Final. So tell me, why Nash should?ve won it? The winning record? Make his teammates better? So please shut up, and listen for once. If you want a best player on a winning team for the MVP, give it to Billups. If you want the best player in the league for MVP, give it to Kobe. If you want a younger gun, go with Lebron. </div> hey kid...thats twice now. there is no need to start insulting people just because you disagree with their opinion. this is a frank and mature discussion about the MVP. we are all sharing opinions here...if you disagree with someone's opinion, then thats fine...lets debate maturely. if you're incapable of that, then either leave the thread, or get ready for a ban. jbb is about MATURE bball discussion, not name calling for the sake of it
To all the Nash lovers : Is it normal he has now officially more MVP's than Shaq, Pete Maravich, Oscar Robertson, Jerry West, Hakeem Olajuwan, David Robinson and as much as Chamberlain and Karl Malone. Yes, this sure looks right. Man this makes me sad, really sad.
<div class="quote_poster">Quoting dj_premium_plus:</div><div class="quote_post">hey kid...thats twice now. there is no need to start insulting people just because you disagree with their opinion. this is a frank and mature discussion about the MVP. we are all sharing opinions here...if you disagree with someone's opinion, then thats fine...lets debate maturely. if you're incapable of that, then either leave the thread, or get ready for a ban. jbb is about MATURE bball discussion, not name calling for the sake of it</div> He's been suspended for the personal attacks. Insulting people isn't tolerated here. Please respect your fellow members.
<div class="quote_poster">Quoting Phuzer:</div><div class="quote_post">To all the Nash lovers : Is it normal he has now officially more MVP's than Shaq, Pete Maravich, Oscar Robertson, Jerry West, Hakeem Olajuwan, David Robinson and as much as Chamberlain and Karl Malone. Yes, this sure looks right. Man this makes me sad, really sad.</div> Wilt chamberlain had 4 mvp's, and how does history have to affect Nash's MVP credentials? i'm not even a big nash fan but had nash played in dantoni's system for most of his career i'm sure most people wouldn't of had a probem career wise with him winning.
