Mad congrats to Nash, especially after all the crap he got last year for winning it. He is truly the Most Valuable Player in the league. He makes his team better. I don't care what B.J. Armstrong (who was made a better player by Jordan by the way) says. What can be more valuable than that?
<div class="quote_poster">Quoting Bobcats:</div><div class="quote_post">I'm pretty sure Kobe didn't put up 35 PPG because he was black. Your bringing up a whole other issue now. Nash didn't win MVP because he was white.</div> I really hate to bring up race... but I would be lying if I did not admit that it has crossed my mind. Nash, like Larry Bird or Rocky Marciano in boxing, is akin to the great white hope. A white player that statistically is as spectacular as the black players that dominate the league. Unfortunately race does factor in no matter how much we want to ignore it. Do I think Nash won the MVP race because he was white? No. Do I think that Nash being white could have been a tie breaker when a group of MVP candidates were as close as this? Most definately.
<div class="quote_poster">Quoting durvasa:</div><div class="quote_post">I think it's interesting that there's such a wide consensus that Kobe is the best player in the league. At what point in the season did that happen?</div> You don't think Kobe has vaulted himself to the top of the list when considering the best player in the league?
<div class="quote_poster">Quoting shapecity:</div><div class="quote_post">I don't think it happened this season, I think he's been recognized across the league as being the best for the past 3 seasons. What's been different this season is the Lakers are back to winning in again, without Shaq.</div> I disagree with you here. I think it was still very much debatable. It was between Kobe, KG and Duncan and was very much subject to personal choice. This season the decline in roles and production of Duncan and to a lesser extent KG when added to the spectacularness of Kobe's season has vaulted Bryant to the number on spot on the list. Many people who would not have picked Kobe as the best player in the league two seasons ago are now grudginly admitting that Kobe has elevated his play to beyond any of the other players in the league. If one were to take a poll on ESPN who in their right mind would bet against Kobe being voted the best player in the league?
<div class="quote_poster">Quoting Fiyah:</div><div class="quote_post">I really hate to bring up race... but I would be lying if I did not admit that it has crossed my mind. Nash, like Larry Bird or Rocky Marciano in boxing, is akin to the great white hope. A white player that statistically is as spectacular as the black players that dominate the league. Unfortunately race does factor in no matter how much we want to ignore it. Do I think Nash won the MVP race because he was white? No. Do I think that Nash being white could have been a tie breaker when a group of MVP candidates were as close as this? Most definately.</div> I don't think the race issue is the main factor in Nash winning 2 MVPs. What's most to blame is that no one else really came out and became the front runner for it; we had 5 legit MVP contenders and I'm sure Nash was high on everyone's list and not necessarily number one. Nash isn't really the great white hope because its widely known that hes not American, you can say that the writers are still racist but I just don't think there are any racist writers given an MVP vote for the NBA. Why would they even care about the NBA or major sports at all if they're racist? Even if there are racists its not like a majority of the MVP voters are racist, there would only be a few if any. And if there are racists couldn't it be a possibility that there are black writers who are racist? Its really a touchy subject but when I think of whites looking for the "great white hope" I instantly think that they would more likely be baseball or football fans, to me baseball fans are alot different than basketball fans. Also, when thinking of a great white hope, I just think part of that is that they are the American great white hope and while Nash isn't from over seas, if it were irrelevant what kind of white he were than Dirk would probably be that great white hope. I know you're not saying he won because hes white but I don't think race was all that big of a difference maker. He is the quintessence of making your teammates better and being a team player which is probably the most important factor that most writers take into account. Its possible that some votes were affected by race but I tihnk it would be totally irrelevant if the NBA altered the MVP voting by making specific criteria for what an MVP should be and making an association of voters that they believe will make the right, unbiased choice.
<div class="quote_poster">Quoting Run BJM:</div><div class="quote_post">I don't think the race issue is the main factor in Nash winning 2 MVPs. What's most to blame is that no one else really came out and became the front runner for it; we had 5 legit MVP contenders and I'm sure Nash was high on everyone's list and not necessarily number one. Nash isn't really the great white hope because its widely known that hes not American, you can say that the writers are still racist but I just don't think there are any racist writers given an MVP vote for the NBA. Why would they even care about the NBA or major sports at all if they're racist? Even if there are racists its not like a majority of the MVP voters are racist, there would only be a few if any. And if there are racists couldn't it be a possibility that there are black writers who are racist? Its really a touchy subject but when I think of whites looking for the "great white hope" I instantly think that they would more likely be baseball or football fans, to me baseball fans are alot different than basketball fans. Also, when thinking of a great white hope, I just think part of that is that they are the American great white hope and while Nash isn't from over seas, if it were irrelevant what kind of white he were than Dirk would probably be that great white hope. I know you're not saying he won because hes white but I don't think race was all that big of a difference maker. He is the quintessence of making your teammates better and being a team player which is probably the most important factor that most writers take into account. Its possible that some votes were affected by race but I tihnk it would be totally irrelevant if the NBA altered the MVP voting by making specific criteria for what an MVP should be and making an association of voters that they believe will make the right, unbiased choice.</div> Yeah. I never said it was the main fator. I said that to deny that race plays a part in decisions such as this is fallacy. I also never said the voters were racist. Could their decision be swayed by race? Yes. Was race the overall factor into their decision? No. But you did help my theory out... you are right. No one made a clear leap above Nash as MVP. But in the same vein... neither did Nash make a clear leap above anyone else. So in a tight MVP race with 8 viable candidates could race have been the tie breaker? I wouldn't be surprised. Think on this... what is the worst crime a black man could commit during the civil rights movement? Sleeping with or raping a white woman. Could Kobe's prior transgressions also drop him on the list of several sportswriters? Hmmmm. You are also right in pointing out that Nash's unslefish play and ability to make players better endears him to many people who want to see the "good guy" win. The average joe who knows he is't as fast as the others or as strong as the others or as tall as the others. So he makes the sum of the parts greater than the whole. And for that Nash probaly woul have gotten my pick for MVP. But think about the race factor for a second and then think to yourself... "How could Kobe Bryant, who averaged a mammoth 35 ppg and scored the second highest individual total in NBA history, plus lead a weak Lakers team to the playoffs in the strong Western Conference, be left off of some people's top five?"
<div class="quote_poster">Quoting Fiyah:</div><div class="quote_post">Yeah. I never said it was the main fator. I said that to deny that race plays a part in decisions such as this is fallacy. I also never said the voters were racist. Could their decision be swayed by race? Yes. Was race the overall factor into their decision? No. </div> Yeah, thats what I meant, racist isn't the right wrod I meant more that perhaps writers were biased toward one race or another. I understand your point completely. <div class="quote_poster">Quote:</div><div class="quote_post">But you did help my theory out... you are right. No one made a clear leap above Nash as MVP. But in the same vein... neither did Nash make a clear leap above anyone else. So in a tight MVP race with 8 viable candidates could race have been the tie breaker? I wouldn't be surprised. Think on this... what is the worst crime a black man could commit during the civil rights movement? Sleeping with or raping a white woman. Could Kobe's prior transgressions also drop him on the list of several sportswriters? Hmmmm.</div> Its definitely possible that race was a deciding factor but we aren't living in the 1800's anymore let alone segregated eras in the 60's and before. If anything alot of whites go out of their way to prove they aren't racist because its so easy to be accused a racist by someone of a minority (or just non-white since areas like the Bay Area where I live whites aren't a majority). Again, I just don't think there was any race bias unless Canadian voters voted for their own guy because I just don't buy that NBA journalists would be against blacks. Theres always the possibility that some are biased towards a race but I just don't think it was a deciding factor in the MVP race.
<div class="quote_poster">Quoting Fiyah:</div><div class="quote_post">You are also right in pointing out that Nash's unslefish play and ability to make players better endears him to many people who want to see the "good guy" win. The average joe who knows he is't as fast as the others or as strong as the others or as tall as the others. So he makes the sum of the parts greater than the whole. And for that Nash probaly woul have gotten my pick for MVP. But think about the race factor for a second and then think to yourself... "How could Kobe Bryant, who averaged a mammoth 35 ppg and scored the second highest individual total in NBA history, plus lead a weak Lakers team to the playoffs in the strong Western Conference, be left off of some people's top five?"</div> Its definitely iffy when Kobe is left off of a top 5 list but I don't think thats racial bias, thats probably just not liking Kobe Bryant or someone who is really into the belief that the MVP should be someone from a top team in their conference which would put Wade, LeBron, Nash, Dirk, Chauncy, and maybe Elton Brand all above him. Yeah, Kobe was left out of some top 5's but I'd like to see how often LeBron or Chauncy were left out, I doubt its racial bias as much as just not liking a person.
<div class="quote_poster">Quoting Run BJM:</div><div class="quote_post">Yeah, thats what I meant, racist isn't the right wrod I meant more that perhaps writers were biased toward one race or another. I understand your point completely. Its definitely possible that race was a deciding factor but we aren't living in the 1800's anymore let alone segregated eras in the 60's and before. If anything alot of whites go out of their way to prove they aren't racist because its so easy to be accused a racist by someone of a minority (or just non-white since areas like the Bay Area where I live whites aren't a majority). Again, I just don't think there was any race bias unless Canadian voters voted for their own guy because I just don't buy that NBA journalists would be against blacks. Theres always the possibility that some are biased towards a race but I just don't think it was a deciding factor in the MVP race.</div> Well incidentally during the 1960s (the civil rights era), when several white Americans were polled as to whether or not they thought blacks were treated the same as whites in their communities more than 70% of them said yes despite living in a time of rampant racial disharmony. And that was in 1960... less than 50 years ago. Today... what has changed but the decreased visibility and the increased denial of race as a factor in our everyday lives. Check these stats: How many Americans do you figure have even heard, for example, that black youth arrested for drug possession for the first time are incarcerated at a rate that is forty-eight times greater than the rate for white youth, even when all other factors surrounding the crime are identical ? How many have heard that persons with "white sounding names," according to a massive national study, are fifty percent more likely to be called back for a job interview than those with "black sounding" names, even when all other credentials are the same ? How many know that white men with a criminal record are slightly more likely to be called back for a job interview than black men without one, even when the men are equally qualified, and present themselves to potential employers in an identical fashion ? How many have heard that according to the Justice Department, Black and Latino males are three times more likely than white males to have their vehicles stopped and searched by police, even though white males are over four times more likely to have illegal contraband in our cars on the occasions when we are searched ? This is today's America. So to me... for a sportswriter to make a decision on an MVP candidate and be forced to pick between Canadian and white vs American and black it ain't illogical to think that race could have pushed them towards one superstar.
<div class="quote_poster">Quoting Run BJM:</div><div class="quote_post">Its definitely iffy when Kobe is left off of a top 5 list but I don't think thats racial bias, thats probably just not liking Kobe Bryant or someone who is really into the belief that the MVP should be someone from a top team in their conference which would put Wade, LeBron, Nash, Dirk, Chauncy, and maybe Elton Brand all above him. Yeah, Kobe was left out of some top 5's but I'd like to see how often LeBron or Chauncy were left out, I doubt its racial bias as much as just not liking a person.</div> Maybe when the votes are published we can see which of the top 6 were left off of most people's ballots. While I agree that not being on an elite team would certainly hurt Kobe's chances of being voted as number 1 I cannot agree with anyone's claim that the Laker's seventh seeding would result in removing Kobe from anyone's top 5 ballot. That decision could only be made by someone with a distinct prejudice (racial or otherwise) towards Kobe.
Ehh I think Dirk should've won it, but Steve Nash was probably my runner-up. I just am amazed at the fact that he has more MVPs than Shaq or Barkley.
<div class="quote_poster">Quoting Diesel:</div><div class="quote_post">Ehh I think Dirk should've won it, but Steve Nash was probably my runner-up. I just am amazed at the fact that he has more MVPs than Shaq or Barkley.</div> Kindah of makes that whole MVP criteria as one of the largest supporting arguments for best player in the league look a little weak now doesn't it?
<div class="quote_poster">Quoting Fiyah:</div><div class="quote_post">Kindah of makes that whole MVP criteria as one of the largest supporting arguments for best player in the league look a little weak now doesn't it?</div> Well yeah. Its all so circumstantial. That's why when I hear people complain that its wrong that Nash has more MVP's than Magic, I get frustrated. Is it Nash's fault that last year, there were very few legitimate candidates for MVP? Look at the competition Magic had to contend with for MVP: should it count against Nash that he had it easier? Of course not. I mean on paper, it'll say that Nash had one more MVP. But any reasonably informed basketball fan will tell you that Magic was better. You can't just take awards and stats straight-forward like that. It always end up in a weak and ignorant argument.
<div class="quote_poster">Quoting durvasa:</div><div class="quote_post">I supported Nash last season, but two in a row seems a bit much. Picking a suitable MVP is an art, and you should respect the history of the game in doing so. 20 years from now, people are going to look at the record books and find that players like Shaq and Dream had ONE MVP award, while Steve Nash won it back to back. And if Nash never makes it into the FInals (which, let's be honest, is quite possible) people are really going to be scratching their heads over this. Regarding the issue of race, ESPN contributor John Hollinger said he think it isn't race but size that's the big factor. He points to Iverson (probably the least "white" player in the league) being voted in over Shaq. Or, even Nate Robinson "stealing" the dunk contest this season. Media-types love rooting for the undersized players, and that bias is much more explicit than any racial prejudice.</div> Nash won because Stoudemire went out and the Suns only lost a stutter step. But as I rambled above, the Suns staying power was generated by Jerry Coangelo, Mike D'Antonio (had to be a close second to Johnson for Coach of the Year) and helped by their main scout and evaluator, Steve Kerr. Why Steve Kerr? Just ask Jordan and Tim Duncan. He knows who can shoot the ball with a hand in their face. Nash was as surprised as anybody in basketball when all the new faces turned out to be pretty good scorers, and of course a decent point guard makes them even better with better opportunities. It's his job and he did it very well last year and won the trophy. But this year he had another All-Star in Marion, and the Suns brought in (including Diaw who helped plug the big hole Amare left with 13 points, 7 rebounds and 6 assists per game) four players who all averaged 10 points; so even with Joe Johnson, Quentin Richardson and Amare out, the point production never dropped off and the defense couldn't afford to trap Nash. I think Nash responded well, but give most of the credit to managment and a tip of the hat to Diaw. Already made my case for Dirk, above.
<div class="quote_poster">Quoting Fiyah:</div><div class="quote_post">I disagree with you here. I think it was still very much debatable. It was between Kobe, KG and Duncan and was very much subject to personal choice. This season the decline in roles and production of Duncan and to a lesser extent KG when added to the spectacularness of Kobe's season has vaulted Bryant to the number on spot on the list. Many people who would not have picked Kobe as the best player in the league two seasons ago are now grudginly admitting that Kobe has elevated his play to beyond any of the other players in the league. If one were to take a poll on ESPN who in their right mind would bet against Kobe being voted the best player in the league?</div> Yeah, I agree, I was just pointing out Kobe was mentioned as one of the best a few seasons ago. He was in the debate and a lot of people covering the game said the Lakers have the two best players in the game. Shaq is player A, Kobe is A-1.
Everyone already knows Kobe is the best player in the league but theres no award for that lol. I guess its respect and some people just dont wanna give that to him cuz they dont like him.
<div class="quote_poster">Quoting amador08:</div><div class="quote_post">Everyone already knows Kobe is the best player in the league but theres no award for that lol. I guess its respect and some people just dont wanna give that to him cuz they dont like him.</div> Exactly the MVP award is not the "best player award" if it was don't you think Jordan would have won more than 5? Its the best player who can lead a strong winning team. No matter what anyone says kobe was left off becuase his team wasn't anything special, 45 wins and the 7th seed doesn't cut it. Look at the winners from the last 10 years all winning temas with 50+ wins in the first 3 seeds. ...and the writers aren't biased aginst Kobe, if his team had 50 wins and he did everything he did this year, im positive he would have been MVP and for the race thing steve nash didn't win becuase he was white he won becuase the media is always biased in favor of canadians that's why.
<div class="quote_poster">Quoting Fiyah:</div><div class="quote_post">Well incidentally during the 1960s (the civil rights era), when several white Americans were polled as to whether or not they thought blacks were treated the same as whites in their communities more than 70% of them said yes despite living in a time of rampant racial disharmony. And that was in 1960... less than 50 years ago. Today... what has changed but the decreased visibility and the increased denial of race as a factor in our everyday lives. Check these stats: How many Americans do you figure have even heard, for example, that black youth arrested for drug possession for the first time are incarcerated at a rate that is forty-eight times greater than the rate for white youth, even when all other factors surrounding the crime are identical ? How many have heard that persons with "white sounding names," according to a massive national study, are fifty percent more likely to be called back for a job interview than those with "black sounding" names, even when all other credentials are the same ? How many know that white men with a criminal record are slightly more likely to be called back for a job interview than black men without one, even when the men are equally qualified, and present themselves to potential employers in an identical fashion ? How many have heard that according to the Justice Department, Black and Latino males are three times more likely than white males to have their vehicles stopped and searched by police, even though white males are over four times more likely to have illegal contraband in our cars on the occasions when we are searched ? This is today's America. So to me... for a sportswriter to make a decision on an MVP candidate and be forced to pick between Canadian and white vs American and black it ain't illogical to think that race could have pushed them towards one superstar.</div> Interesting statistics you have there. Theres definitely racial bias in the real world but I don't think things like that are as relevant in MVP voting. Its widely accepted that theres alot of problems with the legal system whether it be racial, gender issues, or social class and society is very much the same way but I don't think that NBA writers are going to make a knock on Kobe because hes black. Alot of people don't like Kobe because of who he is outside of his race. Even so, of all the MVP candidates Kobe's team had the worst record and worst playoff seeding. I agree with Brasco, if the Lakers had 50+ wins Kobe would be the MVP.
<div class="quote_poster">Quoting Chutney:</div><div class="quote_post">If there is racial bias, it would definitely be unconcsiously done.</div> You can't be sure its unconcious, it can be concious aswell. An example of unexpected racism is in a soccer match. Ron Atkinson, a white commentator didn't realise he was on the air and he said this when referring to a player: "He's what is known in some schools as a fu*king lazy thick nig*er." Nobody would have expected him to come out with a comment like that.
