Underrated ai, kg, dwade (before the finals), trenton hassell, jkidd Overrated JO, tmac (too many injuries), bruce bowen, shaq (nowadays), chauncey, and dwade (after the finals).
<div class="quote_poster">Quoting Brasco:</div><div class="quote_post">You think KG is underated? i think this guy has been overated for a while now. What has he accomplished in his 11 year career? Only one trip past round 1. You can blame his team but the fact that he took such a large contract hurt the wolves ability to sign decent talent. so in a way he hurt himself. To be underated you have to have accomplished something.</div> dude, he took a pay cut to get spree and cassell. and he is an unbelievable talent that the league will never see again. he should have won like three mvp's by now, not one. an mvp is an accomplishment btw. he can do anything, better than any big man in the league besides 3-point shooting which dirk gets, but he can still hit threes. add overrated lbj (by the media, and homers), michael redd (too much money), wally world (never should have been an all-star).
<div class="quote_poster">Quoting TheFreshPrince:</div><div class="quote_post">Underrated ai, kg, dwade (before the finals), trenton hassell, jkidd Overrated JO, tmac (too many injuries), bruce bowen, shaq (nowadays), chauncey, and dwade (after the finals).</div> AI and KG are underrated, and Bruce Bowen is overrated? How is that?
<div class="quote_poster">Quoting Bobcats:</div><div class="quote_post">AI and KG are underrated, and Bruce Bowen is overrated? How is that?</div> ai is one of the greatest scorers ever, yet isnt even considered on the top tier of players, like dwade, lebron, shaq, etc. kg is one of the greatest overall players ever. he can do it all, yet he doesnt even get talked about as the top pf in the game these days. he is better than any other big out there today, maybe ever. and like i have said a few times in other threads. the only big that is better than kg at anything is dirk at threes. that is it. bruce bowen is so overrated it makes me sick. he gets SUPERSTAR treatment by the refs, while guys like trenton hassell play better, cleaner defense and get in constant foul trouble. bowen is a solid defender that gets treated like a superstar. wastn he a finalist for dpoy a few yers ago?
<div class="quote_poster">Quoting TheFreshPrince:</div><div class="quote_post">ai is one of the greatest scorers ever, yet isnt even considered on the top tier of players, like dwade, lebron, shaq, etc.</div> Scoring efficiency, FreshPrince. Career TS% (a measure of scoring efficiency, proportional to points per scoring attempt) of those players; <div class='codetop'>CODE</div><div class='codemain'><br/>minutesTS%<br/>Iverson2843951.2%<br/>Wade799756.1%<br/>LeBron987154.0%<br/>Shaq3479158.4%<br/></div> Keep in mind that the league average TS% over the Iverson's career (1997 through 2006) was 52.4%. It's kind of hard to give credit to Iverson as one of the all time great scorers, when he's actually been below average in terms of scoring efficiency.
Damn, the last couple weeks people have been really bowing out and avoiding discussion after the introduction of facts huh. These people love throwing opinions around, but as soon as somebody gets a big rocky fact in their hand- they wanna back up and turn away. Cowardace. Fresh Prince, so DWade and Shaq are overrated? But Nowitzki, Kobe, Ai Garnett and Kidd are incredibly underrated? ... see this is why these discussions never get resolved.
<div class="quote_poster">Quoting AIRTIGHT:</div><div class="quote_post">Damn, the last couple weeks people have been really bowing out and avoiding discussion after the introduction of facts huh. These people love throwing opinions around, but as soon as somebody gets a big rocky fact in their hand- they wanna back up and turn away. Cowardace. Fresh Prince, so DWade and Shaq are overrated? But Nowitzki, Kobe, Ai Garnett and Kidd are incredibly underrated? ... see this is why these discussions never get resolved.</div> Dude, read what i write! i never said nowitzki or kobe were underrated. i said dwade after the finals was overrated, before he was under. i said shaq nowadays is overrated.and where did i say incredibly? i shouldnt have done this for you, but you are so damn annoying! you never read what i post. and every time you find one little thing to argue, instead of counter arguing my points. you are worse than kobe fans. the guys you seem to hate the most. if you look like 3 post above you will see why i think that ai and kg are underrated. and how am i a coward now?
<div class="quote_poster">Quoting durvasa:</div><div class="quote_post">Scoring efficiency, FreshPrince. Career TS% (a measure of scoring efficiency, proportional to points per scoring attempt) of those players; <div class='codetop'>CODE</div><div class='codemain'><br/>minutesTS%<br/>Iverson2843951.2%<br/>Wade799756.1%<br/>LeBron987154.0%<br/>Shaq3479158.4%<br/></div> Keep in mind that the league average TS% over the Iverson's career (1997 through 2006) was 52.4%. It's kind of hard to give credit to Iverson as one of the all time great scorers, when he's actually been below average in terms of scoring efficiency.</div> i find scoring efficiency a very overrated stat. he puts the ball in the bucket, more than just about any other player ever so far. Larry Brown put AI in a system where he could shoot whenever, and however he wanted. That is pretty high praise from the team coach that larry brown is known for. Many centers are rated way higher on efficiency scoring, yet they are not even close to as good scorers as AI, Kobe, Wade, Bron, all these guys.
I never said you were a coward--- why you would decide to think I was refering to you on that comment is somethin only you could figure out. <div class="quote_poster">Quote:</div><div class="quote_post">he(Iverson) puts the ball in the bucket, more than just about any other player ever so far</div> Of course he doesnt. See its statments like that; where you make comments that you know have very little or no truth-- then try to turn around and accuse people of "twisting what you say" or that we are in some way misinterpreting your ideas------>> most if not all of that is your fault. If you started talking in facts instead of opinion dressed as your own "facts" then maybe we wouldnt have problems like this. For you even suggest Kidd as underrated and Wade overrated shows you have bias. Kidd or Garnett or AI--- players who have been proved to be career LOSERS and suggest that they are underrated to a guy like Wade, a few days after doing what he just did in only his 3rd year shows that you have strong biases -- hence why I used the word "incredibly" And when you mention Nowitzki- yea I like the guy to, but to say he's "better" than Larry Bird, and then wonder why I your posts get misunderstood?? I dont remember the exact quote but for you to say something like 'Bird is extremely overrated' and then on here to say Nowitzki is underrated-- then wanna talk to me about my posts and me being "so damn annoying" and ridiculous or whatever- I mean haha c'mon man.
Ai averages 28.0 ppg 6.1 apg 4.0 rpg 2.34 spg all while being 5'11" 165lbs. you cant name one guy that small with better numbers. also, he is on pace to be one of the greatest scorers ever, that is a fact. he currently has 19,115 points and 1,593 steals. both amazing. in fact if he played for 5-6 more years he could be near jordans numbers (your favorite, and mine). the dirk thing was in a different thread, and i said that dirk MAY BECOME better than bird, not dirk is better than bird. And again read what i said about wade! i've posted it twice now. kidd is underrated because he is a triple double machine. and one of the best point guards ever. (in many peoples opinions) yet isnt even considered the among the top point guards in the league. i havent heard a word about kidd in like 3 years. tha makes him underrated and i thought that that the coward thing was toward me because every time you and i are debating something and you dont post for a while, you come in and say, well i guess i won this thread, facts by me are the only ones that count blah blah blah. i am almost always the one waiting on you.
<div class="quote_poster">Quote:</div><div class="quote_post">he(Iverson) puts the ball in the bucket, more than just about any other player ever so far</div> <div class="quote_poster">Quote:</div><div class="quote_post">Ai averages 28.0 ppg 6.1 apg 4.0 rpg 2.34 spg all while being 5'11" 165lbs. you cant name one guy that small with better numbers </div> I hope you know the difference between these two statments. To say he averages whatever he averages at 5'11 165- and that I cant name one guy that small with better numbers // is not the same as saying "he puts the ball in the bucket, more than just about any other player ever so far". >> Why you came on here no more than an hour and 6 mins later and totally changed what you said displays what im talknig about. I could fill out a whole thread of just statments of you putting your foot in your mouth man. You need to figure out what your point is before you come post something new on here. and here's that link "Where does Kobe Rank in history ?" http://www.justbball.com/forums/showthread...9501#post639501
those statements are very similar. you just couldnt figure out the first one, so i had to show you why it ws accurate. you still didnt touch any of the other things you had wrong with my post, where are all you stats and facts. did you finally read my statement about wade and dirk and realize that you were wrong. iverson is on pace to be one of the greatest scorers ever, that is what i said by saying SO FAR.
<div class="quote_poster">Quoting TheFreshPrince:</div><div class="quote_post">i find scoring efficiency a very overrated stat. he puts the ball in the bucket, more than just about any other player ever so far. Larry Brown put AI in a system where he could shoot whenever, and however he wanted. That is pretty high praise from the team coach that larry brown is known for. Many centers are rated way higher on efficiency scoring, yet they are not even close to as good scorers as AI, Kobe, Wade, Bron, all these guys.</div> Your criteria for what makes a player good is much different from mine, so I guess that explains why you'd consider scoring efficiency overrated. You see, winning is directly related to scoring efficiently on one end, and preventing the opposing team from scoring efficiently on the other. I judge players based on their ability to help teams win, whereas you use some other criteria which I still haven't quite figured out. Hence, I think scoring efficiency is important, and you don't. To be clear, I'm not saying Iverson is a below average scorer. He's obviously a very good scorer, and a very good offensive player overall. He's just not as great as you make him out to be. The team success he's enjoyed during his career has been more because of strong team defense than offense: <div class='codetop'>CODE</div><div class='codemain'><br/><font color=""Navy"">WinsOffenseDefense</font><br/>19972224/2925/29<br/>19983121/2919/29<br/>19994621/295/29<br/>20004925/294/29<br/>20015613/295/29<br/>20024323/293/29<br/>20034811/2912/29<br/>20043326/2910/29<br/>20054324/3010/30<br/>20063813/3025/30<br/></div> Note that in his best years, the defense was typically well ahead of the offense. Is it possible that one of the all-time great offensive players could never have been part of a good offensive team, and most of the time was on very bad offensive teams?
<div class="quote_poster">Quoting durvasa:</div><div class="quote_post">Your criteria for what makes a player good is much different from mine, so I guess that explains why you'd consider scoring efficiency overrated. You see, winning is directly related to scoring efficiently on one end, and preventing the opposing team from scoring efficiently on the other. I judge players based on their ability to help teams win, whereas you use some other criteria which I still haven't quite figured out. Hence, I think scoring efficiency is important, and you don't. To be clear, I'm not saying Iverson is a below average scorer. He's obviously a very good scorer, and a very good offensive player overall. He's just not as great as you make him out to be. The team success he's enjoyed during his career has been more because of strong team defense than offense: <div class='codetop'>CODE</div><div class='codemain'><br/><font color=""Navy"">WinsOffenseDefense</font><br/>19972224/2925/29<br/>19983121/2919/29<br/>19994621/295/29<br/>20004925/294/29<br/>20015613/295/29<br/>20024323/293/29<br/>20034811/2912/29<br/>20043326/2910/29<br/>20054324/3010/30<br/>20063813/3025/30<br/></div> Note that in his best years, the defense was typically well ahead of the offense. Is it possible that one of the all-time great offensive players could never have been part of a good offensive team, and most of the time was on very bad offensive teams?</div> The system was for him to score and the rest of the team to play defense. and defense is what wins games. not offense. the raps were a very good offensive team this year, yet they have the number one draft choice. i get that obviously. now of course the suns and mavs and kings of the past one plenty of games with no defense, but they never had a lot of real good sucess. look at his team, the team being bad at offnese wasnt his fault, no one else was a scorer.
<div class="quote_poster">Quote:</div><div class="quote_post">...That is pretty high praise from the team coach that larry brown</div> Yeah, and everybody knows how great he's been latley <div class="quote_poster">Quote:</div><div class="quote_post">Many centers are rated way higher on efficiency scoring, yet they are not even close to as good scorers as AI, Kobe, Wade, Bron, all these guys</div> You were talking about "all time" correct? So you're referring to guys such as Moses Malone, Shaq, Jabbar, DRob, STAT--- I dont wanna go back too far. All those guys who have comparable averages-- and better career averages/ with much higher efficiency, are still not "close to as good". ? <div class="quote_poster">Quote:</div><div class="quote_post">did you finally read my statement about wade and dirk and realize that you were wrong. </div> ..no I didnt. Cut and post that in bold letters <div class="quote_poster">Quote:</div><div class="quote_post">the dirk thing was in a different thread, and i said that dirk MAY BECOME better than bird, not dirk is better than bird.</div> "<u>Where does Kobe rank in history?</u>" post #201 Fresh Prince: <div class="quote_poster">Quote:</div><div class="quote_post">and yes i feel dirk is better than bird</div>
<div class="quote_poster">Quoting AIRTIGHT:</div><div class="quote_post">Yeah, and everybody knows how great he's been latley</div> ooooooo, nice comeback, i guess this thread ended quickly when people actually read what others write and run out of ways to bash kobe.
<div class="quote_poster">Quoting TheFreshPrince:</div><div class="quote_post"> look at his team, the team being bad at offnese wasnt his fault, no one else was a scorer.</div> But, you see, it WAS his fault. He had, by far, the biggest role on the team, so he deserves most of the responsibility for how well or bad they play. For many of those years, he was woefully inefficient while using up a high number of possessions per game. What's the consequence of that? It means they'll end up scoring a low number of points per possession -- and that's precisely the definition of a bad offensive team. If a team is depending so heavily on a player, and that player is not capable of scoring efficiently, than it's only natural that the team will suffer on the offensive end. This has been the pattern for Philadelphia for many years. Iverson, to his credit, greatly improved his efficiency this past season (taking advantage of the rule changes, like Wade and others). But he had some really terrible years in the past.
centers take higher percentage shots, so they should be more efficient scorers. scoring efficiency is almost all about shot selection, that is why i think it is a very overrated stat. AI takes difficult shot because the offense is centered around him scoring all by himself, so his efficiency is very low.
<div class="quote_poster">Quoting NBA MAN:</div><div class="quote_post">overrated: Vince Carter, Jermaine O'Neal, Jason Kidd underrated: Gilbert Arenas</div> How?
<div class="quote_poster">Quoting TheFreshPrince:</div><div class="quote_post">centers take higher percentage shots, so they should be more efficient scorers. scoring efficiency is almost all about shot selection, that is why i think it is a very overrated stat. </div> What do you mean, it's "overrated'? Will a team that can not score efficiently be a good offensive team? If a team can not prevent the opposing team from scoring very efficiently, will they be a good defensive team? Efficiency is what wins at the team level. Quite literally, the most efficient teams are the best teams, and the least efficient teams are the worst teams. At the player level, it gets more complicated, but efficiency is still very important. Iverson can help an offense because he removes the burden of scoring from his teammates. This allows them to score more efficiently than they otherwise would. Thus, the team as a whole might actually increase it's efficiency by adding a relatively inefficient Iverson. But of course, this shouldn't discount the importance of efficiency. Obviously, if Iverson could increase his efficiency while the rest of the team's efficiency remains about the same, that will only improve the performance of the team as a whole. No one said a player's efficiency is everything (yes, if that's what they said, then it's overrated). But it's still extremely important, and it's a fact that Iverson over his career has not done well in this regard. If you want to compare his numbers to past players, it's ridiculous not to take into account that he's much less efficient than most of the great scorers in league history. You said that big men will naturally have a much higher TS% (scoring efficiency) than guards. The difference isn't quite as much as you make it out to be. Centers don't have the benefit of the 3-point line and they also don't shoot free throws as well, in general. Here's how the TS% breaks down, by position, from 1997 through 2006 (using position designations from dougstats): <div class='codetop'>CODE</div><div class='codemain'><br/><font color=""Navy"">PosTS%</font><br/>PG51.6%<br/>SG52.6%<br/>SF52.5%<br/>PF52.6%<br/>C52.5%<br/></div> As you can see, it's quite close. During this time, Iverson has been a PG/SG and he has a career TS% of 51.2% (including three seasons when it was less than 50%, which is really awful for a player who takes so many shots).
