<div class="quote_poster">Quote:</div><div class="quote_post">TORONTO ? Last year about this time, Bryan Colangelo was the toast of the National Basketball Association, overseeing a 33-game improvement with his Phoenix Suns after adding Canadian Steve Nash to the mix for the 2004-05 season. By improving to 62 wins from 29 the season before, the Suns surged to the best record in the NBA, and Colangelo, the club's president and general manager, was selected as the league's executive of the year for his shrewd manoeuvrings. Colangelo now holds the same title for the woebegone Toronto Raptors, who gave the smooth-talking 40-year-old the keys to the struggling franchise in late February after the overthrow of Rob Babcock. Colangelo is confident he can swing the fortunes of the Raptors, who struggled to win 27 games this season and missed the playoffs for the fourth consecutive year. But he does not believe a huge turnaround, such as the one he witnessed in Phoenix, is in the cards for Toronto next year. ?I would say no,? Colangelo said when asked yesterday about a Phoenix-like breakout season in Toronto next year. Colangelo was speaking to reporters at the Air Canada Centre in advance of the NBA draft lottery on Tuesday. The Raptors currently hold the No. 5 pick and two second-round picks for the draft, to be held in New York on June 28. Colangelo plans to attend the lottery, to be held at NBA Entertainment headquarters in Secaucus, N.J., as he prepares to put his stamp on the future of the Raptors. Last year with Phoenix, Colangelo said, was a special moment, as everything fell into place for the Suns. The team managed to clear considerable salary-cap space by revamping its roster; the biggest move was sending Stephon Marbury to the New York Knicks. And, unlike this season, there was a wealth of high-calibre players on the free-agent market for the Suns to pick from. ?Really, that was a moment in time, someone like Steve Nash was available via free agency,? Colangelo said. ?We created quite a bit of room that year doing something fairly significant in trading away our best players ? Stephon Marbury to New York. ?It was a chance where $130-million in contracts roughly was going out and only about $25-million was coming back.? With this year's crop of free agents, headed by Nazr Mohammed of the San Antonio Spurs and Joel Przybilla of the Portland Trail Blazers, and a draft pool lacking in star quality, Colangelo said the Raptors will have to be careful. ?The draft doesn't have a LeBron James type, but it's a good draft,? Colangelo said. ?The free agency doesn't have a Steve Nash type, but it's a good free-agency group if you choose to spend the money in appropriate fashion. ?And I think our biggest thing is, we've got to be very careful not to overspend on mediocre free agents. So don't expect us just to go out and spend money just to spend it. That would be a big mistake in terms of the future.? Colangelo said he likes the core of young players the Raptors have in Chris Bosh, Charlie Villanueva and even Joey Graham. He said that Morris Peterson has developed into a valuable veteran presence with the team.</div> Source
Well let's be serious here. Phoenix had Amare who in 03-04 averaged 24.8 PPG in the second half of the season, Marion who was a 19-21 PPG and 9-10 RPG guy every year, and Joe Johnson who after Marbury left averaged 19-5-5. There was also Leandro Barbosa who even though there was a huge communication barrier player fairly well, was a good shooter, and was crazy quick. The Raptors don't have comparable talent to that, neither can we add a Nash or even Q-Rich (though I was never a fan of him) to the team, so if people are expecting such a turnaround this season, they're crazy. Unless our draft pick is amazing (which can, but is not likely to happen), it's not likely to happen.
<div class="quote_poster">Quoting og15:</div><div class="quote_post">Well let's be serious here. Phoenix had Amare who in 03-04 averaged 24.8 PPG in the second half of the season, Marion who was a 19-21 PPG and 9-10 RPG guy every year, and Joe Johnson who after Marbury left averaged 19-5-5. There was also Leandro Barbosa who even though there was a huge communication barrier player fairly well, was a good shooter, and was crazy quick. The Raptors don't have comparable talent to that, neither can we add a Nash or even Q-Rich (though I was never a fan of him) to the team, so if people are expecting such a turnaround this season, they're crazy. Unless our draft pick is amazing (which can, but is not likely to happen), it's not likely to happen.</div> I agree with everything you say; the talent level isn't really comparable, and Colangelo is smart enough to notice that. I think it would actually be better for the Raptors to finish in the bottom five this season for one main reason: Greg Oden. Whoever gets the kid will see that 'big turnaround' in their franchise similar to when the Spurs got Duncan or the Cavaliers got James. Even if you come up short and get the #2, 3, or 4 pick, the talent level in 2007 is expected to be very similar to the already legendary 2003 draft, if everyone who's expected to come out does so. In drafting a player like Thaddeus Young, Kevin Durant, Josh McRoberts, or Brandan Wright, you may be drafting the next Wade, Bosh, Melo, etc.
<div class="quote_poster">Quoting Voodoo Child:</div><div class="quote_post">I agree with everything you say; the talent level isn't really comparable, and Colangelo is smart enough to notice that. I think it would actually be better for the Raptors to finish in the bottom five this season for one main reason: Greg Oden.</div> I don't think the Raps can sustain annother losing season, especially one finishing at the bottom five. Really, this year we shouldnt have been in the bottom five. If we won half of those wire to wire, last second games, we would have 5-6 maybe more wins. The Raps weren't as bad as the record may tell you, though we were bad. By finishing in the bottom 5 next year, we'll be taking a step back, and we've already taking enough steps back. Next year is the year to take a big step forward. Although it would be nice to land an Oden, or one of the other great talent of the '07 class, it's a better outlook to see the Raps win this year.
<div class="quote_poster">Quoting P.A.P.:</div><div class="quote_post">I don't think the Raps can sustain annother losing season, especially one finishing at the bottom five. Really, this year we shouldnt have been in the bottom five. If we won half of those wire to wire, last second games, we would have 5-6 maybe more wins. The Raps weren't as bad as the record may tell you, though we were bad. By finishing in the bottom 5 next year, we'll be taking a step back, and we've already taking enough steps back. Next year is the year to take a big step forward. Although it would be nice to land an Oden, or one of the other great talent of the '07 class, it's a better outlook to see the Raps win this year.</div> Of course you lost a lot of games at the wire. That's what young teams do. I remember back in the Grizzlies' "losing days", I'd try to convince everyone on JBB that they really weren't that bad, because it seemed like half their games came down to the last second, but really, it's like that for the Bobcats, Hawks, and most other young teams. I don't mean to start a flame war, but c'mon...81 points...you can't be that good; you know what I mean. If I'm a GM of a franchise like the Raptors, I use the next season as a rebuilding year to play my draft pick and my young guys in extended time. It's the only real way to develop a dynasty instead of just a contender.
<div class="quote_poster">Quote:</div><div class="quote_post">If I'm a GM of a franchise like the Raptors, I use the next season as a rebuilding year to play my draft pick and my young guys in extended time. It's the only real way to develop a dynasty instead of just a contender. </div> I agree, get our young people more and more experience and room to improve, and then in the '07 offseason with all the great players, you sign some and then yo become a contender plus a dynasty over time... makes sense.
This offseason has all the signs of us having another bad year before our big rebound. The draft has depth, but is weak at the positions we're looking for. Free agency is weak as well, and all signs seem to point to Colangelo spending conservatively. And we're more than likely going to lose Mike James to free agency as well. The development of Bosh, Villanueva, Graham, and Calderon as well as some depth we might pick up from free agency really look to be our only improvements coming into next season. It looks more like we have no choice but to have another bad-mediocre year, unless we force it this offseason.
<div class="quote_poster">Quoting og15:</div><div class="quote_post">The Raptors don't have comparable talent to that, neither can we add a Nash or even Q-Rich (though I was never a fan of him) to the team, so if people are expecting such a turnaround this season, they're crazy. Unless our draft pick is amazing (which can, but is not likely to happen), it's not likely to happen.</div> I don't even think the most optimistic Raptor fans are expecting that huge of a turnaround (as the Suns did), but it is reasonable to see a 10 game improvement or more depending on who we can get in the offseason.
<div class="quote_poster">Quoting Voodoo Child:</div><div class="quote_post">If I'm a GM of a franchise like the Raptors, I use the next season as a rebuilding year to play my draft pick and my young guys in extended time. It's the only real way to develop a dynasty instead of just a contender.</div> You can build a championship team via FA and trades. The pistons did it most recently. You look at the 3 straight the Lakers won that was done through a combination of drafted players and free agent signings e.g Shaq, Horry, L. Hunter. Right now the Heat are a team who have aquired key players through trade and F.A Shaq, Antoine Walker, Jason Williams, ZO, Posey and Payton. Everyone knows what the Suns did this year. The clipperstraded for Brand Mobley and S. Cassell. Dallas as well with Stackhouse and Jason Terry and Dampier. Even the spurs who draft well add key guys to championship rosters Like Horry or M. Finley Nick Vanexel, Brent Barry, NzAR Mohammad. Secondly I resent that idea that drafting Thaddeus Young, Kevin Durant, Brandan Wright will instantly make us a dynasty. I agree that Greg Oden is a possible franchise changer but we have yet to see any of these guys against College compettion. Furthermore having a shitty season would harm are chances of aquiring some of the big names in FA in 07(Who people see as potentially one of the best FA classes in history), while if we were to make the play-off's we would been see as very attractive place to play for Free Agents who want to win. Throw out the start of the season where we started 1-16 and throw out the end of season after the CB4 injury where we went 1-12 and our record during the middle part was a resbectable 25-27. We have a young franchise all-star in BOSH and a very capable high potential second year triple threat player in CV31. I think anytime you have a all-star on your squad your goal should be the play-off's regardless of "next years" draft class. Anyway I am in agreement with this quote from Colangelo" <div class="quote_poster">Quote:</div><div class="quote_post">And I think our biggest thing is, we've got to be very careful not to overspend on mediocre free agents. So don't expect us just to go out and spend money just to spend it. That would be a big mistake in terms of the future.?</div> This team needs to create a culture of winning, not hoping to lose enough games and rely on ping pong balls to dertimine our fate.
<div class="quote_poster">Quoting Drunkballer:</div><div class="quote_post">You can build a championship team via FA and trades. The pistons did it most recently. You look at the 3 straight the Lakers won that was done through a combination of drafted players and free agent signings e.g Shaq, Horry, L. Hunter. Right now the Heat are a team who have aquired key players through trade and F.A Shaq, Antoine Walker, Jason Williams, ZO, Posey and Payton. Everyone knows what the Suns did this year. The clipperstraded for Brand Mobley and S. Cassell. Dallas as well with Stackhouse and Jason Terry and Dampier. Even the spurs who draft well add key guys to championship rosters Like Horry or M. Finley Nick Vanexel, Brent Barry, NzAR Mohammad.</div> Let's be honest about free agency. The top names will not want to come to Toronto. If they're really good, like a franchise player, they'll likely stay loyal to their current team, and even if they're looking for something new, the odds are that they go to a team that'll instantly be a title contender or somewhere where the weather is real nice (ex: Miami, Los Angeles, etc.). So eliminating free agency, trade is really the only other option, but Toronto doesn't have many tradable assets, so what are the odds you'll build a contender via trade? Not high. Look at all of the teams out there who have won titles with their draft picks leading the way - 2005: San Antonio (Duncan, Parker, Ginobili) 2003: San Antonio (Duncan, Parker, Ginobili) 2002: Los Angeles L. (Bryant) 2001: Los Angeles L. (Bryant) 2000: Los Angeles L. (Bryant) 1999: San Antonio (Duncan, Robinson, Elliot) 1998: Chicago (Jordan, Pippen, Kukoc) *Pippen acquired on draft day. 1997: Chicago (Jordan, Pippen, Kukoc) 1996: Chicago (Jordan, Pippen, Kukoc) 1995: Houston (Olajuwon) 1994: Houston (Olajuwon) 1993: Chicago (Jordan, Pippen, Grant) 1992: Chicago (Jordan, Pippen, Grant) 1991: Chicago (Jordan, Pippen, Grant) 1990: Pistons (Thomas, Dumars, Rodman) 1889: Pistons (Thomas, Dumars, Rodman) 1888: Lakers (Johnson, Worthy, Scott) *Scott acquired right after draft. 1887: Lakers (Johnson, Worthy, Scott) 1886: Celtics (Bird, Mchale, Ainge) Alright, I'll stop there, but basically you can keep going on back and it holds true. Teams who win titles land their franchise players in the draft. The only real exception was the 2004 Detroit Pistons. <div class="quote_poster">Quote:</div><div class="quote_post">Secondly I resent that idea that drafting Thaddeus Young, Kevin Durant, Brandan Wright will instantly make us a dynasty. I agree that Greg Oden is a possible franchise changer but we have yet to see any of these guys against College compettion. Furthermore having a shitty season would harm are chances of aquiring some of the big names in FA in 07(Who people see as potentially one of the best FA classes in history), while if we were to make the play-off's we would been see as very attractive place to play for Free Agents who want to win.</div> I don't think I said they'd instantly make you a dynasty. However, I think they've all got the chance to be superstars on the next level. Young, in particular, is a player I've had the chance to play against multiple times this year, and I can tell you first hand that he's a legit talent. I can easily see him making the All-Star team in his second or third year in the league; he's that good. Each of those players has a ceiling a lot higher than any of the free agents you could realistically sign. Be honest, what would possibly lure a player like LeBron James, Dwyane Wade, Dirk Nowitzki, etc. to Toronto (they're all '07 F.A.'s by the way)? You've also got to be concentrating your efforts on keeping Bosh. <div class="quote_poster">Quote:</div><div class="quote_post">Throw out the start of the season where we started 1-16 and throw out the end of season after the CB4 injury where we went 1-12 and our record during the middle part was a resbectable 25-27. We have a young franchise all-star in BOSH and a very capable high potential second year triple threat player in CV31. I think anytime you have a all-star on your squad your goal should be the play-off's regardless of "next years" draft class. </div> You're thinking like a fan. A GM's got to think more long-term. Bosh was good enough to make the All-Star team, but he's not good enough to single-handedly carry this team into any postseason success. If you do crack the playoffs, it'd be as a lower seed, which winds up only being counterproductive because you get knocked early, still don't hold much appeal to free agents, and waste the opportunity for a lottery pick. By the way, 25-27 is respectable? Maybe in the East I guess, but on the whole, it takes better than a .500 record, and in 82 games, to make the playoffs.
<div class="quote_poster">Quoting Voodoo Child:</div><div class="quote_post"> Look at all of the teams out there who have won titles with their draft picks leading the way - 2005: San Antonio (Duncan, Parker, Ginobili) 2003: San Antonio (Duncan, Parker, Ginobili) 2002: Los Angeles L. (Bryant) 2001: Los Angeles L. (Bryant) 2000: Los Angeles L. (Bryant) 1999: San Antonio (Duncan, Robinson, Elliot) 1998: Chicago (Jordan, Pippen, Kukoc) *Pippen acquired on draft day. 1997: Chicago (Jordan, Pippen, Kukoc) 1996: Chicago (Jordan, Pippen, Kukoc) 1995: Houston (Olajuwon) 1994: Houston (Olajuwon) 1993: Chicago (Jordan, Pippen, Grant) 1992: Chicago (Jordan, Pippen, Grant) 1991: Chicago (Jordan, Pippen, Grant) 1990: Pistons (Thomas, Dumars, Rodman) 1889: Pistons (Thomas, Dumars, Rodman) 1888: Lakers (Johnson, Worthy, Scott) *Scott acquired right after draft. 1887: Lakers (Johnson, Worthy, Scott) 1886: Celtics (Bird, Mchale, Ainge) Alright, I'll stop there, but basically you can keep going on back and it holds true. Teams who win titles land their franchise players in the draft. The only real exception was the 2004 Detroit Pistons.</div> Your list of championship teams with draft picks doesn’t really help your argument, in fact I think it shows that you don’t need a starting line up with playrs all picked in the top5 to win championships. Obviously I understand that championship teams draft well but that is only half of the battle and I think you misunderstood me. I wasn’t suggesting that the raptors should only do it through free agency and trades I was suggesting that building a championship team need not be done solely through the draft, In fact a combination of drafted players along with solid Freeagent pick ups or trades generally is a combination for success. That is why in my first post I brought up the fact that We have a young all-star in BOSH and a second year triple threat player in CV31. Not to mention The 5th overall pick in this years draft. Obviously I understand that championship teams draft well but that is only half of the battle. Secondly, your were advocating that the best scenario for the raptors would be to finish with a top 5 pick or lower pick in order to add a young talent to make the team a dynasty. If you at the draft picks on your list of recent champions a lot of them are so called steals or guys who were drafted out of the Top 5: First is San Antonio: Duncan was obviously a #1 pick but Parker was picked 28th overall and MANU 57th. Next you have Bryant and the lakeshow: But certainly you will be the first to admit that Bryant would have never won a championship without the key additions of guys like SHAQ, Robert Horry. Furthermore the only drafted guy you list is Kobe someone who was picked 13th overall. I agree that 1999 spurs won the championship primarily through the draft w/ robinson and Duncan being # 1 picks and elliot a #3. But don’t forget the contributions of someone like avery Johnson who went undrafted. Obviously the back to back rocket champions were lead by Hakeem but the 1994 team was greatly aided by guys like Kenny Smith a Sacramento kings draft pick and V. Maxwell a 2nd rd. draft pick or Otis Thorpe someone who was drafted by Kansas city. The 1995 team was seeded sixth heading into the play-offs but were able to upset the top seeds thanks to the mid-season addition of Clyde Drexler. Obviously I could go on: I applaud the draft day trade made by the Bulls to get Pippen but they gave up the #8 overall pick and threw in an extra pick w/ the option to swap first rounders in the next two years. Toni Kukoc was an 2nd draft pick. Horace Grant went 10th overall. Looking at the pistons – rodman was a second rounder, dumars went 18th overall Obviously the Laker champions drafted well and got a steal in the Byron Scott trade. Anyway I think our disagreement boils down to this: You believe the best situation for the raptors would be to play the develope the youngsters a lot. Make no improvement to the team and hope to finish in the bottom of the standings… hopefully have the ping balls bounce the right way and draft and hopefully select a guy who turns out to be a stud difference make like D. Wade or a Carmello. Wait a few years for him to develop and then make the championship run. I just think that strategy involves too many variables. Mine would be to sign some moderately priced free agents and improve the team without jeopardizing the cap space. Develop a culture of winning around the team something that will benefit guys like BOSH and CV31. Look to sign or trade for some key players in 07. trust that Bryan Colangelo will make some good draft picks with laterpicks or allow him the leverage to make draft-day swaps and trade away future first round picks if he feels a guy like Thedeus Young is the real deal. Anyway I just don’t think relying on the lottery year in and year out builds you a contender. The clippers and the Lottery were synonymous throughout the 90's and early 00's but they didn't get to the playoffs until they made some trades and signed some FA: BRAND, Mobley and Cassell. <div class="quote_poster">Quoting Voodoo Child:</div><div class="quote_post"> Let's be honest about free agency. The top names will not want to come to Toronto. If they're really good, like a franchise player, they'll likely stay loyal to their current team, and even if they're looking for something new, the odds are that they go to a team that'll instantly be a title contender or somewhere where the weather is real nice (ex: Miami, Los Angeles, etc.). </div> Lastly your argument the Raptors will not be able to attract quality free agents I think is weak. NBA players go to places to get paid a lot and win. During the VC era the raptors were able to re-sign all the key players except for T-mac who wanted to be “the man” elsewhere. If you look at what the BlueJays did this year in baseball they signed the Top starting pitcherc(aj burnett) and best closer on the market (BJ RYAN). They convinced a stud hitter Troy Glaus to drop his “no-trade” clause. All this was due to the fact they offered the most money and a chance to play for a contender. The Timberwolves got guys like S. Cassell and Spreewell, Denver was able to get K-Mart and A. Miller. I think the raptors could do the same. Anyway this was way too long but yeh I hope my arguments are coherent.
here's my take: toronto should try to draft some very good talents, diamond in the rough kind of talent in drafts for the next 3 years at the same time, spend money on the solid players, mix youth and veteran leadership that's toronto's quickest way to success and cheapest too signing the likes of magloire won't help at all too expensive and long term contracts kill cheap and effective role players are what need to be sought add the talents through drafts...and draft well take after the bobcats mode and toronto will have a good future
...if we take after the bobcats we'll be just as bad! lol...reading over the Drunkballer Voodoo comments left me wondering...why can't we do both? There obviously isn't a recipe for success or everyone would be doing it. It is partially just dumb luck that everything gels. I'd like the raps to keep on developing their youth. If the right vet. comes along sign them, as Eric Williams, or Lamond Murray have shown just cuz your a vet doesn't mean you help your team. I think a good communication between coach and GM are very important so that they both have a good understanding of what is needed and lacking on the team. I would however have to agree with Voodoo on the fact that in almost every case superstars are drafted not signed to their respective teams. I'd definately put more stock in drafting a superstar than thinking I could sign one in the free agent market. Unless there was some real reason that they wouldn't resign with their team, be it salary cap issues or 'da t-mac complex' etc etc.
