The Warriors sucked this season. That much is safe to say. However, the point of this thread is to go out on a limb and say that even if they made no moves this off-season and the draft is a bust, The Warriors will be good next year. Playoff good. Okay, I'll give you a moment to get out you explicatives, tame your laughter and and compose yourself. Ready? My main reasoning for this line of thought is, I imagine, in the minority: The Boom-Dizzle is one of the best players in the league. Hey, at least I don't hide behind rhetoric, yeah? How about this: he's a top-5 point guard in the league. Now, I do understand frustrations with Baron last year, and I shared a few. we got off to a great start, but then somewhere along the line the chemistry, ball movement and electricity of that run-n-gun team got about as stanky as a swamp troll's underpants. And part of that was Baron: jacking up 40ft. threes, pounding down the shot clock, overplaying for steals instead of containing... However, I don't think Baron's play during the middle of the season was what hurt the Warriors. As we all saw, in his absence the last third of the season, the Warriors play was about as stanky as a camel terd that Jabba-the-Hutt just barfed on. That's stankier than a swamp troll's underpants. The same weaknesses that were hurting the Warriors during the mid-season slide are the same weaknesses that were exposed when Baron went out: 1.)Derek Fisher sucks. When he's on the court he takes away possessions from everyone else because he thinks he should be nominated for the Hall-of-Fame when he retires. He doesn't give a sheit about who's hot: oh, Murphy has just hit five straight jumpers? Fukk that, I'm jacking this one up from half-court baby! Don't get me started on this guy. My point is that he was a pirmary cause for the Warriors' mid-season stall as Monty started playing him more and more -- including putting him and Baron on the floor together. 2.)Adonal Foyle sucks. If the Warriors had a center who could catch -- and hang onto -- 50% of the passes that Baron Davis gave them, the Warriors would be in the playoffs. Unfortunately, the Warriors gave Foyle a Shaq-like contract, and so they felt forced to start his candy-ass over and over and over. Credit Baron for continuing to pass to him -- my gawd that's pretty generous of him. Unfortunately Foyle is good for 5 turnovers a game in the books, and another 5 turnovers which he inadvertently causes. 3.)Dunleavy's got Issues.In the last third of the season, Baron went down. And after all his talk about "street ball," Dunleavy finally got a slow it down, half-court point guard -- albeit a horrible one -- in Derek Fisher. What did he do with it? Nada. Dunlevy's problems weren't Baron Davis' "loose cannon" style of play. They were -- and are -- something else. I'm not sure what. My contention is this: there are several reasons why the current roster will be a playoff team next year: 1.)Health. Obviously it's a big one, but assuming Baron can play 75 games next year, that's a huge lift right there. Next is Chris Taft. Am I the only one who remembers his fantastic play in the paint early in the season? Sure he fizzled off from there, but that was, indeed, primarily because of his back. If he can heal up, and return to that early season form, Foyle will never see the court again. 2.)back-up PG. If Baron had Monta Ellis and Will Bynum backing him up instead of Derek the ball-fart Fisher, the Warriors would be explosive. Unfortunately, they didn't. So, I'd like Fisher to be traded, but to be consistent with my contention that this current roster can do it, then I say if Fisher can be slid way down the bench into a Calbert Cheaney role, and Monta and Bynum get the minutes, this will be a big lift for Baron and Jason's team. 3.)Beans and Ike. The only two big men on the team who can catch a pass in the paint and do something with it. This is <font size=""6"">so valuable</font> to Baron's game, because he constantly breaks down the defense and forces the big men to come to him. Did you see what happened to him last year? Mid-season, teams started suffocating him in the lane, banging him, bruising him, triple teaming his drives. Why? they knew that Murphy and Foyle weren't going to eleveate for no alley-oop. C'mon. Eric Piatkowski can finish in the paint with more thunder than these fools. That's why. It is. Trust me. With two big men in Beans and Ike who are at least a threat to finish the dump-off, Baron will either average 30 points a night, or 15 assists. Maybe both. However, this can only happen if they are played. I look at this roster, with first names as starters: pg- Boom Dizzie / Monta Ellis / Will Bynum sg- J-Rich / Monta Ellis / Will Bynum sf - Pietrus / Dunleavy / Zarko pf - Ike Diogu / Murphy / Zarko c - Andris Biedrins / Taft Notice what happened? No Foyle or Fisher. The result? Playoffs.
I'm fine with that line up, as long as Dunleavy averages 14-5-4 and Foyle averages 0-0-0 (because he'd be on the bench every game, hopefully). We'd also need a healthy Chris Taft and I sure hope he is cause he's better than Foyle already. Lets not forget our draft pick, we could still pick up a bigman or a swingman since those are our weakest positions.
I totally agree about Baron. I'm still really high on him and believe he should be ntouchable unless we get an offer for a big man. He was injured all of last season and like Alley said he got suffocated because there were so many guys the defense could leave without being punished. Give him at least one more healthy seasonwith Ike/Andris playing big minutes. Dunleavy was a far bigger problem than Foyle or Fisher this season. If he averaged 14 ppg on 45% FGs we would have won alot more games. Talk about chuckers, this guy can would regularly go 0-6 or 1-7 on 3's in a game. He was just terrible and its no ones fault but his own, we are getting no where with him getting 10 ppg and 28% from 3. His defense was much improved this season, for the love of christ just hit some open shots and no one will complain about you. Fisher really wasn't a huge problem IMO. Sure his chucking off of the bench was disgusting but there were alot of games where he scored over 20 ppg on decent shooting. You definitely dont want him starting but hes a good shooter/scorer off the bench. If Monty had the balls to ask him kindly to look to pass before he shot he'd be a very good player off the bench. You definitely don't want him running the point but his scoring off of the bench was valuable with Pietrus in a funk all season. He won us some games and probably lost us some games but he wasn't the biggest problem this season. Remember when he was shooting 50% from 3 off the bench early in the season? Adonal Foyle is tied with Dunleavy as our #1 biggest problem. You guys know exactly what I'm going to say; he can't catch, he can't score, he can't play one on one defense. Bottom line is he makes everyone worse and hes just terrible. He needs to be replaced quickly. If Dunleavy can get 15 ppg on decent shooting I think we'll end up with a much better record, even better if we replace Foyle. The only way I see us getting into the playoffs is if Andris can manage to get the starting job from Foyle, if Baron stays healthy or most of the season, and if Dun plays decently.
Two things: 1. The biggest reason why I'm optimistic about Baron Davis this year is that this is the first time he's going to spend the offseason at the Warriors facility working out with Mark Grabow. After Tim Grover, who was Jordan's personal trainer, Grabow is just about the best trainer in the country. I'm absolutely confident that Davis is going to come into training camp in the best shape of his life with his back issues taken care of. 2. AlleyOop, why do you have Pietrus starting ahead of Dunleavy?!? Not only did Pietrus have a worse season than Dunleavy, he regressed MORE than Dunleavy. Dunleavy went from a 14.52 PER in '04-'05 to a 12.51 PER in '05-'06. Pietrus went from a 14.16 PER in '04-'05 to a 10.01 PER in '05-'06. Here's the thing: Pietrus is a phenomenal athlete, but he's got a low basketball IQ. Pietrus is no more able to raise his basketball IQ as Dunleavy is able to become a better athlete. So, unless Pietrus undergoes a brain transplant, he's not going to have the "upside" that people continue to claim he has. As much as you Dunleavy-bashers want to bash him for looking goofy, choking, not living up to his contract or draft position, etc., you're going to eventually have to come to grips with the fact that Dunleavy is better than Pietrus, and will most likely continue to be so.
<div class="quote_poster">Quoting Run BJM:</div><div class="quote_post">I totally agree about Baron. I'm still really high on him and believe he should be ntouchable unless we get an offer for a big man. He was injured all of last season and like Alley said he got suffocated because there were so many guys the defense could leave without being punished. Give him at least one more healthy seasonwith Ike/Andris playing big minutes. Dunleavy was a far bigger problem than Foyle or Fisher this season. If he averaged 14 ppg on 45% FGs we would have won alot more games. Talk about chuckers, this guy can would regularly go 0-6 or 1-7 on 3's in a game. He was just terrible and its no ones fault but his own, we are getting no where with him getting 10 ppg and 28% from 3. His defense was much improved this season, for the love of christ just hit some open shots and no one will complain about you. Fisher really wasn't a huge problem IMO. Sure his chucking off of the bench was disgusting but there were alot of games where he scored over 20 ppg on decent shooting. You definitely dont want him starting but hes a good shooter/scorer off the bench. If Monty had the balls to ask him kindly to look to pass before he shot he'd be a very good player off the bench. You definitely don't want him running the point but his scoring off of the bench was valuable with Pietrus in a funk all season. He won us some games and probably lost us some games but he wasn't the biggest problem this season. Remember when he was shooting 50% from 3 off the bench early in the season? Adonal Foyle is tied with Dunleavy as our #1 biggest problem. You guys know exactly what I'm going to say; he can't catch, he can't score, he can't play one on one defense. Bottom line is he makes everyone worse and hes just terrible. He needs to be replaced quickly. If Dunleavy can get 15 ppg on decent shooting I think we'll end up with a much better record, even better if we replace Foyle. The only way I see us getting into the playoffs is if Andris can manage to get the starting job from Foyle, if Baron stays healthy or most of the season, and if Dun plays decently.</div> You, me, and Alley Oop all got it right. We just need to let Baron get in shape, some fire in his ass, maybe get a new coach that will bench him if he slacks off, and then let him run the offense. Also, I think that we should have Monta at SG and move JR up to the small forward in the starting lineup. J-Rich may destroyed, but he can play them on offense. Also, Alley Oop, I was surprised that Monty was not a problem on the list.
<div class="quote_poster">Quoting wtwalker77:</div><div class="quote_post">2. AlleyOop, why do you have Pietrus starting ahead of Dunleavy?!? Not only did Pietrus have a worse season than Dunleavy, he regressed MORE than Dunleavy. Dunleavy went from a 14.52 PER in '04-'05 to a 12.51 PER in '05-'06. Pietrus went from a 14.16 PER in '04-'05 to a 10.01 PER in '05-'06. Here's the thing: Pietrus is a phenomenal athlete, but he's got a low basketball IQ. Pietrus is no more able to raise his basketball IQ as Dunleavy is able to become a better athlete. So, unless Pietrus undergoes a brain transplant, he's not going to have the "upside" that people continue to claim he has.</div> Its arguable as to who had the worse season of the two, Dunleavy had a hell of alot more chances to prove himself though. The thing with Pietrus is that its so obvious that he needs Baron to play well, Dunleavy is just terrible with or without Baron. As long as Baron is starting Pietrus would be just as good of a fit, maybe better than Dun because Pietrus feeds off of Baron. <div class="quote_poster">Quote:</div><div class="quote_post"> As much as you Dunleavy-bashers want to bash him for looking goofy, choking, not living up to his contract or draft position, etc., you're going to eventually have to come to grips with the fact that Dunleavy is better than Pietrus, and will most likely continue to be so.</div> I've come to grips with the fact that Pietrus nearly matched Dunleavy's production with 10 less minutes per game and 2 less shot attempts per game. Basketball retard Mickael Pietrus could easily outproduce basketball genius Dunleavy if given equal minutes and shot attempts, thats something people need to come to grips with. I can't remember if I've ever bashed Dunleavy for his draft position or contract, but I sure as hell bash him for shooting 28% from 3 on a season, and for being successfully shut down by 6'0 PGs. What does Dunleavy do beter than Pietrus? Is he a better shooter? Defender? Finisher at the rim? Oh yeah hes got a great bball IQ, that is just as much of a waste of talent as Pietrus' athleticism. All Dunleavy has on Pietrus is FT shooting, ability to think faster, and a higher salary.
<div class="quote_poster">Quoting Run BJM:</div><div class="quote_post">I've come to grips with the fact that Pietrus nearly matched Dunleavy's production with 10 less minutes per game and 2 less shot attempts per game. Basketball retard Mickael Pietrus could easily outproduce basketball genius Dunleavy if given equal minutes and shot attempts, thats something people need to come to grips with. I can't remember if I've ever bashed Dunleavy for his draft position or contract, but I sure as hell bash him for shooting 28% from 3 on a season, and for being successfully shut down by 6'0 PGs. What does Dunleavy do beter than Pietrus? Is he a better shooter? Defender? Finisher at the rim? Oh yeah hes got a great bball IQ, that is just as much of a waste of talent as Pietrus' athleticism. All Dunleavy has on Pietrus is FT shooting, ability to think faster, and a higher salary.</div> Are you sure about who has put up better numbers? Are you sure you aren't just looking through rose colored glasses? According to John Holliger, espn's resident stat guru, given the same amount of minutes, Dunleavy will have more assists and rebounds and fewer turnovers. He'll have slightly less points, but he shoots better from the field and free throw line. That's what having a higher PER means. The per minute stats don't lie. I'm sure I've watched as many games as you have, and for every guy you see blow by Dunleavy, I see Pietrus making a bone headed play that yields just as many points. You may point to Pietrus' slightly higher steals per 40 minute stats as evidence that Pietrus is the far superior defender, but did you know that Dunleavy is BY FAR the team leader in charges taken? Each charge is just as valuable as a steal. It doesn't lead to fast break points, but it puts the other guy/team in foul trouble. Do you count those charges when considering how much better a defender Pietrus is? What about +/- stats, you know, the stat that tells net points for the team when that player is on the floor? This must be where Pietrus outshines Duneavy, right? After all, Mike is admitedly poor at -0.9 net points per game. Surely Pietrus must have better numbers than Dunleavy. Uh...no. Pietrus is at -5.4 per game, the worst per game average of any Warrior that gets regular minutes. In fact, Pietrus has the lowest net totals of anyone on the team at -132 for the season. Did you hear that? This means he's got the worst +/- numbers on the team!!! Pietrus has cost the Warriors more points than anyone on the team, and that's with only playing 52 games this year. Check out 82games.com for yourself to see the +/- stats. I'm really tired of you guys defending Pietrus at every stop and criticizing Dunleavy. There is no stat you can show me that says Pietrus is the more effective player. I don't care what you've seen with your own eyes, I've watched the same stuff. You say Pietrus is clearly better, I say Dunleavy, and the only impartial source we have, statistics, strongly agrees with me.
<div class="quote_poster">Quoting wtwalker77:</div><div class="quote_post">According to John Holliger, espn's resident stat guru, given the same amount of minutes, Dunleavy will have more assists and rebounds and fewer turnovers. He'll have slightly less points, but he shoots better from the field and free throw line. That's what having a higher PER means. The per minute stats don't lie. I'm sure I've watched as many games as you have, and for every guy you see blow by Dunleavy, I see Pietrus making a bone headed play that yields just as many points. You may point to Pietrus' slightly higher steals per 40 minute stats as evidence that Pietrus is the far superior defender, but did you know that Dunleavy is BY FAR the team leader in charges taken? Each charge is just as valuable as a steal. It doesn't lead to fast break points, but it puts the other guy/team in foul trouble. Do you count those charges when considering how much better a defender Pietrus is?</div> I understand those statistics and they may say that Dun is more productive than Pietrus but theres a few reasons why Pietrus deserves to be starting just as much as Dunleavy does. 1. Pietrus isn't going to get locked down by a PG. This is a huge problem. If we're playing the Suns and Nash can hold Dunleavy to 5 points for the whole game while Raja Bell covers Baron and Marion guards J-Rich we're going to lose. We need to win matchup battles, Baron is a matchup nightmare against most PGs, Dunleavy being covered by the other teams PG screws the whole team over. 2. Dunleavy can't penetrate. We have very few players who can drive the lane, Pietrus is one of them. His FT shooting is poor but at least he gets to the line and at least gets the other team in foul trouble, Dunleavy misses a shocking number of layups while not getting fouled. We have to put Dunleavy on PFs just to allow him to get into the lane where he can show us all his newest way to screw up a moderately difficult layup. This wouldn't be a huge problem if Dunleavy could shoot: 3. Dunleavy can't shoot. 28% on the season from beyond the arc. Both Pietrus and Dunleavy lob up alot of air balls but Pietrus was just a better shooter. Pietrus wasn't a great shooter but he was a hell of alot better than Dunleavy. 4. Pietrus fits better with starters, Dun fits beter with the backups. At the starting 3 we don't want someone who needs the ball in his hands and is limited because he can't shoot or penetrate. All we want from the starting 3 is to knock down open shots at a decent clip, maybe penetrate if given the chance, and play some solid defense. Off the bench do you want a tandem of Fish/Pietrus or Fish/Dunleavy? Fish and Dunleavy clearly work better so that theres a legit ballhandler looking to pass the ball and create for others (Ike, Monta, other bench players). Defense is a wash, Pietrus is more athletic and Dunleavy is smarter, I was impressed by Dunleavy's defense this past season but its not that great. I really don't want to hear about Dun's IQ, like I said its just as much a waste of talent as Pietrus's athletic ability. What does he do with his basketball knowledge? He'll draw a charge a few times a game, he'll also get blown by and jumped over a few times just like Pietrus will make a few athletic stops but screw up mentally a few times. Dunleavy causes the whole team to suck because he needs the ball to be effective but why should he get the ball when he can't penetrate, shoot, or even draw a defender within 9 inches of his height? The fact that he is so easily shut down hurts our whole team as well. I'm not saying Pietrus is an ideal starter or that hes the answer at the 3 but hes not going to have negative effects on the rest of the starters. We need athleticism, shooting, penetration and defense from our 3, Pietrus brings all of those in some way while Dun seriously lacks in some of those areas. I'll believe you and Hollinger that Dun can score and get more assists than Pietrus but I'll take Pietrus's few points and assists less per game in exchange for us not losing major matchup battles, hitting some open shots, ad perhaps adding some penetration. If Dunleavy could hit some open shots he would probably get the unanimous nod as starting SF but he just hasn't done that. I know that Pietrus isn't the answer but hes carrying his own weight by not getting owned by 6 foot PGs and being a threat to score from 3 or attacking the rim. <div class="quote_poster">Quote:</div><div class="quote_post">What about +/- stats, you know, the stat that tells net points for the team when that player is on the floor? This must be where Pietrus outshines Duneavy, right? After all, Mike is admitedly poor at -0.9 net points per game. Surely Pietrus must have better numbers than Dunleavy. Uh...no. Pietrus is at -5.4 per game, the worst per game average of any Warrior that gets regular minutes. In fact, Pietrus has the lowest net totals of anyone on the team at -132 for the season. Did you hear that? This means he's got the worst +/- numbers on the team!!! Pietrus has cost the Warriors more points than anyone on the team, and that's with only playing 52 games this year. Check out 82games.com for yourself to see the +/- stats. I'm really tired of you guys defending Pietrus at every stop and criticizing Dunleavy. There is no stat you can show me that says Pietrus is the more effective player. I don't care what you've seen with your own eyes, I've watched the same stuff. You say Pietrus is clearly better, I say Dunleavy, and the only impartial source we have, statistics, strongly agrees with me.</div> +/- stats are worthless, they can hint at certain trends if they are common in several areas but individually they are terrible for actually reading into about a players' performance. As for us defending Pietrus (which you are doing to Dunleavy), you're right, we do defend/promote Pietrus and criticize Dunleavy. But Pietrus's problems are only as deep as bball IQ and FT shooting, Dunleavy just can't seem to do anything right and hes been fed everything on a silver spoon. Statistics favor you by a narrow margin but statistics don't tell the whole story. I've already laid out my case, it probably won't change your mind but now you know why we defend Pietrus.
<div class="quote_poster">Quoting wtwalker77:</div><div class="quote_post"> I'm really tired of you guys defending Pietrus at every stop and criticizing Dunleavy.</div> I'm really tired of you defending Dunleavy at every stop and criticizing Pietrus. But thats not true right? Of course not, and neither is it for us. We all said Pietrus makes boneheaded moves. But wait, it would have been impossible if we defended Pietrus at every stop. So uh no, we are not doing what you said. Also I'm sure you would agree with me when I say stats don't tell everything. Murphy and Fisher are efficient player STAT-wise, so they must be great right? I think you know the answer to that. And you can agree with me that Dunleavy is overpaid, soft, and was a big factor in the Warriors not winning this season due to his horrible play. From your "stats" Pietrus cost us more points than Dunleavy. So that makes Pietrus more to blame for our problems than Dunleavy? Lets not forget that Dunleavy got consistent minutes while Pietrus' were more sporadic. How ones favorite player in the entire NBA is Dunleavy is beyond me. I have problems with both players and would prefer an entirely new swingman. But you, it seems you have Chris Mullin syndrome.
Baron Davis wasn't hurt all of last season. For most of the first half of the season it seemed as if Baron was perfectly healthy and maybe played too many minutes. The end of the season he kind of took it easy, but I wouldn't be surprised if the team kind of favored his decision to sit out the last couple of weeks of the season. Just so he doesn't get in a worse injury that would affect him next season. But Baron Davis was ranked higher than Gilbert Arenas just last year by many Warriors fans. I am still high about Baron Davis' potential. I was and am still high about this roster as well, just curious and uncertain about the future of this roster. As for the Pietrus, Dunleavy, or other debate, I believe all three are valid. As a big supporter of Pietrus' game since he has been a Warrior, I would support him. However I am also pleased with Dunleavy's game when he started to take it to the hoop more. I would go with either Pietrus or Dunleavy. But also I would go with bringing in another SF to help out, thus he could start and move Pietrus back to the SG position. Like most decisions for personale reasons, it's tough to decide which ones to make since the team doesn't really have an identity. Adding Ike, Monta, Taft, and more Andris to the trio core of Baron/Jason/Troy along with some good backups like Pietrus and Zarko, this team could accomplish quite a bit, especially with a NBA head coach and a good couple of draft picks.
<div class="quote_poster">Quoting AnimeFANatic:</div><div class="quote_post">I'm really tired of you defending Dunleavy at every stop and criticizing Pietrus. But thats not true right? Of course not, and neither is it for us. We all said Pietrus makes boneheaded moves. But wait, it would have been impossible if we defended Pietrus at every stop. So uh no, we are not doing what you said. Also I'm sure you would agree with me when I say stats don't tell everything. Murphy and Fisher are efficient player STAT-wise, so they must be great right? I think you know the answer to that. And you can agree with me that Dunleavy is overpaid, soft, and was a big factor in the Warriors not winning this season due to his horrible play. From your "stats" Pietrus cost us more points than Dunleavy. So that makes Pietrus more to blame for our problems than Dunleavy? Lets not forget that Dunleavy got consistent minutes while Pietrus' were more sporadic. How ones favorite player in the entire NBA is Dunleavy is beyond me. I have problems with both players and would prefer an entirely new swingman. But you, it seems you have Chris Mullin syndrome. </div> I appolgize if I offended you AnimeFANatic, I didn't mean to single you guys out in particular. I'm just tired of Warrior fans in general hopping on and off the bandwagon of whatever player is the flavor of the month. It's gone from Jamison to Hughes to Richardson to Dunleavy to Arenas to Pietrus to Biedrins to Diogu to Ellis. Each one of these guys has been declared the next savior of the franchise only to be declared a bust within a year or two by the same people. It hasn't happened yet for the younger guys, but I'll bet it will. As for my defense of Dunleavy, I really do like him as a player, but my defense of him has more to do with wanting to provide perspective to other fans. Back when Dunleavy was a rookie and most fans were calling for Jamison to be traded to make room for Dunleavy, I was defending Jamison and saying Dunleavy should stay on the bench until he proves himself. If you replace Jamison with Dunleavy and Dunleavy with Pietrus, it's really just the same argument. Most fans want to kick the old guy to the curb to make way for the new guy, I say the new guy should prove himself first. As for Dunleavy being my favorite player in the league, well that's really only because he's on the Warriors. I love to watch guys like LeBron, Nash, Kidd, Tayshaun Prince, and Duncan. These are all guys who are unselfish, have great court vision, and always make the right play. Dunleavy is certainly not of the caliber that these players are, but when you talk about being in the right place at the right time, he's right there with them.
<div class="quote_poster">Quoting AnimeFANatic:</div><div class="quote_post">I'm really tired of you defending Dunleavy at every stop and criticizing Pietrus. But thats not true right? Of course not, and neither is it for us. We all said Pietrus makes boneheaded moves. But wait, it would have been impossible if we defended Pietrus at every stop. So uh no, we are not doing what you said. Also I'm sure you would agree with me when I say stats don't tell everything. Murphy and Fisher are efficient player STAT-wise, so they must be great right? I think you know the answer to that. And you can agree with me that Dunleavy is overpaid, soft, and was a big factor in the Warriors not winning this season due to his horrible play. From your "stats" Pietrus cost us more points than Dunleavy. So that makes Pietrus more to blame for our problems than Dunleavy? Lets not forget that Dunleavy got consistent minutes while Pietrus' were more sporadic. How ones favorite player in the entire NBA is Dunleavy is beyond me. I have problems with both players and would prefer an entirely new swingman. But you, it seems you have Chris Mullin syndrome. </div> Wtwalker, I think you should tell AF the story about how I ripped on Dunleavy on a daily basis for being Danny Ferry Part II and used to tout Pietrus as the next Ricky Davis type talent that can D-it up, drive, shoot. Then I said he should start, then he started, and then bam he kinda of sucked unless Baron dumbed it down for him or Pietrus was against slow-pokes who couldn't react to him... It's like with Foyle starting too... there's just no results for these guys as starters if they don't have the brains and natural feel for the game. It just kills the momentum of the team game. I still dig Pietrus as a weapon on dumbed-down open court play. He's fantastic in that but I wouldn't trust him at the line because we got enough of those 60% foul shooting guards. Now we just need to be patient enough to find a starter that will be a natural and get results the way Pietrus and Dunleavy have shown when they were on fire (inside-outside threat). Consistency has been a big problem for the Warriors because you need it from a majority of the starters and at least one guy from the bench... Our starting rotation and our bench was herrrrrrrible. And I definitely don't hold favorites for either Pietrus or Dunleavy now. But I'll still kiss Jason Richardson's butt because he definitely says the right things to the fanbase and shows his heart on the court as well as results. Second coming of Michael Finley/Vince Carter anyone? Can we believe that Troy Murphy is our second most reliable player when it comes to consistent stats? That's sad. Then a few other guys try to show up and they've been very unimpressive because they don't have the the things our team needs. We need a franchise player! If Baron is it, I'm kind of sad, but grateful because its better than nothing. Another thought I had was that Dunleavy is a boring player to watch, but he's always helping out and using his head even though the result wasn't something fans don't pick up on. I mean you'd have to be a armchair coach to see how he is moving off the ball or how he's reacting to a play on the floor (floor awareness and court sense). He's a good role player, but we hoped our boring player would be a fundamentals guy like Tim Duncan or Larry Bird. It doesn't need to be exciting, but consistent and effective and hard to stop. Results matter most and unfortunately in all of Dunleavy's silky smooth, fluid movements, he just doesn't do much to affect the game in the ways we need it most. Scoring! We weren't a good defensive team to begin with, so we need to score like mad. I wouldn't care if watching him play was like watching Adonal Foyle's game or like Shawn Marion shoot a jumpshot, it just has to be effective in results. I guess we'll have to wait and see how this drama unfolds, but I would bet my money on the Warriors improvement being based on how their big men do than their small forwards. We get classic power forwards and centers that can compete, the inside game will improve and so will the ball movement and field goal %. Dunleavy can definitely be a better player when he can do more than just cycle the ball around the wing. Ike + Dunleavy are good players to have when you need guys who understand floor spacing and all this other stuff guys need to know. Add in Jrich + Baron and it's already looking better. We just need a real center now and a bench. But I'd still have doubts about that roster... or with Baron or Dunleavy improving their games dramatically.
<div class="quote_poster">Quoting Run BJM:</div><div class="quote_post">I understand those statistics and they may say that Dun is more productive than Pietrus but theres a few reasons why Pietrus deserves to be starting just as much as Dunleavy does. 1. Pietrus isn't going to get locked down by a PG. This is a huge problem. If we're playing the Suns and Nash can hold Dunleavy to 5 points for the whole game while Raja Bell covers Baron and Marion guards J-Rich we're going to lose. We need to win matchup battles, Baron is a matchup nightmare against most PGs, Dunleavy being covered by the other teams PG screws the whole team over. 2. Dunleavy can't penetrate. We have very few players who can drive the lane, Pietrus is one of them. His FT shooting is poor but at least he gets to the line and at least gets the other team in foul trouble, Dunleavy misses a shocking number of layups while not getting fouled. We have to put Dunleavy on PFs just to allow him to get into the lane where he can show us all his newest way to screw up a moderately difficult layup. This wouldn't be a huge problem if Dunleavy could shoot: 3. Dunleavy can't shoot. 28% on the season from beyond the arc. Both Pietrus and Dunleavy lob up alot of air balls but Pietrus was just a better shooter. Pietrus wasn't a great shooter but he was a hell of alot better than Dunleavy. 4. Pietrus fits better with starters, Dun fits beter with the backups. At the starting 3 we don't want someone who needs the ball in his hands and is limited because he can't shoot or penetrate. All we want from the starting 3 is to knock down open shots at a decent clip, maybe penetrate if given the chance, and play some solid defense. Off the bench do you want a tandem of Fish/Pietrus or Fish/Dunleavy? Fish and Dunleavy clearly work better so that theres a legit ballhandler looking to pass the ball and create for others (Ike, Monta, other bench players). Defense is a wash, Pietrus is more athletic and Dunleavy is smarter, I was impressed by Dunleavy's defense this past season but its not that great. I really don't want to hear about Dun's IQ, like I said its just as much a waste of talent as Pietrus's athletic ability. What does he do with his basketball knowledge? He'll draw a charge a few times a game, he'll also get blown by and jumped over a few times just like Pietrus will make a few athletic stops but screw up mentally a few times. Dunleavy causes the whole team to suck because he needs the ball to be effective but why should he get the ball when he can't penetrate, shoot, or even draw a defender within 9 inches of his height? The fact that he is so easily shut down hurts our whole team as well. I'm not saying Pietrus is an ideal starter or that hes the answer at the 3 but hes not going to have negative effects on the rest of the starters. We need athleticism, shooting, penetration and defense from our 3, Pietrus brings all of those in some way while Dun seriously lacks in some of those areas. I'll believe you and Hollinger that Dun can score and get more assists than Pietrus but I'll take Pietrus's few points and assists less per game in exchange for us not losing major matchup battles, hitting some open shots, ad perhaps adding some penetration. If Dunleavy could hit some open shots he would probably get the unanimous nod as starting SF but he just hasn't done that. I know that Pietrus isn't the answer but hes carrying his own weight by not getting owned by 6 foot PGs and being a threat to score from 3 or attacking the rim. +/- stats are worthless, they can hint at certain trends if they are common in several areas but individually they are terrible for actually reading into about a players' performance. As for us defending Pietrus (which you are doing to Dunleavy), you're right, we do defend/promote Pietrus and criticize Dunleavy. But Pietrus's problems are only as deep as bball IQ and FT shooting, Dunleavy just can't seem to do anything right and hes been fed everything on a silver spoon. Statistics favor you by a narrow margin but statistics don't tell the whole story. I've already laid out my case, it probably won't change your mind but now you know why we defend Pietrus.</div> 1. I disagree, but we can debate match ups in a different thread if you want. 2. Now I have to seriously question how many games you watched this year. Dunleavy showed this year that he can take his man off the dribble as well as any other Warrior not named Baron or Ellis. 3. Dunleavy couldn't shoot from three this year, but how can you say he can't shoot when he had a higher overall fg% than Pietrus this year?!? You are seriously dellusional on this one man. Since Pietrus has been in the league, Dunleavy has had a better fg% every year, a much better ft% every year, and until last year, a much better 3p%. You keep ripping Dunleavy's 28% from 3pt last year, but Pietrus wasn't much better at 31%. Maybe it seems bad because you're used to seeing Dunleavy shoot the 37-38% from 3 he shot the two years before last. And Pietrus' drop off doesn't seem so bad because he was only shooting 33-34% the two years before last. I don't want to hear any more about Dunleavy not being able to shoot unless you admit each time that he still shoots better than Pietrus. 4. I dunno. Pietrus didn't do any better as a starter last year than Dunleavy. To me this one looks like it's pretty much a wash (unless you're willing to give more weight to the stats). And if Diogu takes over the pf spot for Murphy, I think Dunleavy would fit with the starters even better. Finally, you can say +/- stats are worthless, but you'd be disagreeing with most of the GM's in the league. If you listen to any GM talk about player evaluations for potential trades, nearly all of them will say that +/- ratio is the first, and in some cases only, stat that they look at. I'm sorry I'm making all these posts so stat heavy, I know there is a lot more to the game. I just think that they are most useful when debunking myths that fans have which are based on their own perceptions. I could argue with you about what you see and what I see, but then we'd probably just end up agreeing to disagree.
<div class="quote_poster">Quoting custodianrules2:</div><div class="quote_post">Wtwalker, I think you should tell AF the story about how I ripped on Dunleavy on a daily basis for being Danny Ferry Part II and used to tout Pietrus as the next Ricky Davis type talent that can D-it up, drive, shoot. Then I said he should start, then he started, and then bam he kinda of sucked unless Baron dumbed it down for him or Pietrus was against slow-pokes who couldn't react to him... It's like with Foyle starting too... there's just no results for these guys as starters if they don't have the brains and natural feel for the game. It just kills the momentum of the team game. I still dig Pietrus as a weapon on dumbed-down open court play. He's fantastic in that but I wouldn't trust him at the line because we got enough of those 60% foul shooting guards.</div> Well, AnimeFANatic, once upon a time Custodian ripped on Dunleavy on a daily basis for being Danny Ferry Part II and used to tout.... (sorry, couldn't resist) But seriously, Custodian could probably attest better than anyone about the arguments that would go on over on the espn boards. If he has a good memory (or is willing to lie) he can even tell you about how I (and Kwan I believe, though this may have been one of the rare times when Kwan and I disagreed about anything) used to bash Dunleavy as having proved nothing in the league and should stay on the bench in a three man rotation with Jamison and Richardson as the primary backup sf/sg. I do think the starting line up is flawed. Baron and Dunleavy are both most effective when they have the ball in their hands. There is no lock down defender in the starting line up. There is no consistent low post threat. But unless you have five guys who fit together perfectly, you're always going to have issues like these. Good teams compensate by 1) developing team chemistry and a team identity, 2) knowing every aspect of the coach's offense and defense, and 3) making small changes to the roster/starting line up. These things take time and patience, which are two things in short supply in the bay area.
<div class="quote_poster">Quoting wtwalker77:</div><div class="quote_post">1. I disagree, but we can debate match ups in a different thread if you want.</div> Why not do it here? Y'all have covered everything else in this thread.
<div class="quote_poster">Quoting wtwalker77:</div><div class="quote_post">1. I disagree, but we can debate match ups in a different thread if you want.</div> Well I've never seen Pietrus struggle to score on a PG and I've seen Dunleavy do it probably 15-25 times last season. Its just embarrassing and it hurts the whole team. <div class="quote_poster">Quote:</div><div class="quote_post">2. Now I have to seriously question how many games you watched this year. Dunleavy showed this year that he can take his man off the dribble as well as any other Warrior not named Baron or Ellis.</div> I watched probably all but 5 or so. Go check the game threads here I probably posted in every one during the games and I went to 4 games and I post here pretty much every day. Dunleavy can't penetrate against 95% of other SFs, its just a fact, if you were watching the games you could easily see that he just couldn't get into the lane unless someone passed him the ball in stride or Monty moved him to PF to create penetration. Again, I wouldn't have much of a problem with this if he could shoot the ball decently. <div class="quote_poster">Quote:</div><div class="quote_post"> 3. Dunleavy couldn't shoot from three this year, but how can you say he can't shoot when he had a higher overall fg% than Pietrus this year?!? You are seriously dellusional on this one man. Since Pietrus has been in the league, Dunleavy has had a better fg% every year, a much better ft% every year, and until last year, a much better 3p%. You keep ripping Dunleavy's 28% from 3pt last year, but Pietrus wasn't much better at 31%. Maybe it seems bad because you're used to seeing Dunleavy shoot the 37-38% from 3 he shot the two years before last. And Pietrus' drop off doesn't seem so bad because he was only shooting 33-34% the two years before last. I don't want to hear any more about Dunleavy not being able to shoot unless you admit each time that he still shoots better than Pietrus. </div> Alright, Dunleavy's FG% is better but just from looking at the two players for 70+ games I'd rather have Pietrus in there because he doesn't miss as many wide open shots or layups. Your FG% tends to go down when you're actually being guarded so in comparison to Dunleavy it's pretty decent. I think we can both agree that Pietrus plays much better with Baron, just look at his stats from the first half last year; 11 pts, 3.5 rebounds on 44% FGs and 35% from beyond the arc, all of this off of the bench while Dunleavy really stuggled the whole year until we were securely out of the playoffs. I'm not admitting Dunleavy shoots better than Pietrus, they're both bad. Dunleavy got a hell of alot more opportunities though, he never played well for multiple games the entire season. At least Pietrus had some bright spots on the season. <div class="quote_poster">Quote:</div><div class="quote_post">4. I dunno. Pietrus didn't do any better as a starter last year than Dunleavy. To me this one looks like it's pretty much a wash (unless you're willing to give more weight to the stats). And if Diogu takes over the pf spot for Murphy, I think Dunleavy would fit with the starters even better. Finally, you can say +/- stats are worthless, but you'd be disagreeing with most of the GM's in the league. If you listen to any GM talk about player evaluations for potential trades, nearly all of them will say that +/- ratio is the first, and in some cases only, stat that they look at. I'm sorry I'm making all these posts so stat heavy, I know there is a lot more to the game. I just think that they are most useful when debunking myths that fans have which are based on their own perceptions. I could argue with you about what you see and what I see, but then we'd probably just end up agreeing to disagree.</div> Pietrus and Dunleavy had very similar statistics as starters. You can call it a wash but like I said, Pietrus won't get guarded by PGs or be unable to penetrate against players at his position. All I ask from the starting 3 is to hit some open 3's, be able to penetrate when necessary, and play solid defense. I don't want our starting 3 handling the ball when we've got Baron and J-Rich on the floor. I agree that if Diogu gets the starting job from Murphy (never going to happen under Monty) Dun would probably be a better fit. I've never talked to a NBA GM, I guess you have, I think its pretty unanimously agreed to fans that +/- stats are terrible. They only tell you how a team did while a player was on the floor, so if the Warriors were always getting beaten, especially without Baron and J-Rich on the floor, its obvious that bench players will look worse. Theres not 1 player playing on the floor at the same time, +/- stats tell how that player and the other 4 performed while they were on the floor. Dunleavy is a better fit off the bench. His bench production isn't far off from his production as a starter, he can do more against backups, he can play the 1, 3, or 4, and he can move the ball while Fisher is playing. It just makes sense, Baron should have the ball 90% of the time when hes in the game, Dun can have it and be more effective whe the comes off the bench.] If Dunleavy shot better I would gladly accept him as a starter. Since he can't I'll take Pietrus who is an equal shooter but better slasher, not as much of an offensive liability, and better fit with the starters.
<div class="quote_poster">Quoting AlleyOop:</div><div class="quote_post">Why not do it here? Y'all have covered everything else in this thread.</div> Because this thread is already going in several different directions, debating matchups would mean it could go in another 29 directions. If you want to discuss them, I'm up for it, but let's do it in another thread.
Well I didn't know I'd spur the whole Pietrus - Dunleavy debate by simply swapping their names in my theoretical line-up. That's not why I started the thread. I know I mention several changes, like removing Foyle and Fisher from the rotation, and having Dunleavy come off the bench, but my aim in addressing those points was to support my agenda in the topic of this thread: Baron Davis can take this team to the playoffs without any trades or signings.
