<div class="quote_poster">Quoting Jurassic:</div><div class="quote_post">There are plenty of examples where that isn't true. The first that comes to mind would be the Bulls, Luc Longely was far from great. Besides, Lebron isn't playing with a "great" center. Z is above average, and a great player, but not a great center.</div> Bit of a contradiction there. How can he be a "great player" but not a "great player" at the position he plays best at? Especially since centers are hard to come by. I can't believe people are taking Lebron over Kobe. Lebron can be better in the future. But for the people that say its not a no-brainer - you're wrong, whether you like it or not. Kobe >> Lebron. Lebron is a better passer and rebounder (mostly due to his size). Kobe is a much better defender, shooter, leader (how can you say Lebron is a better leader??) and free throw shooter. He's more clutch than Lebron too. All the stat-heads can come out with there stats but Kobe is more clutch than Lebron, PERIOD.
<div class="quote_poster">Quote:</div><div class="quote_post">people that say its not a no-brainer - you're wrong, whether you like it or not. Kobe >> Lebron. Lebron is a better passer and rebounder (mostly due to his size). Kobe is a much better defender, shooter, leader (how can you say Lebron is a better leader??) and free throw shooter. He's more clutch than Lebron too. All the stat-heads can come out with there stats but Kobe is more clutch than Lebron, PERIOD.</div> Oh boy where to begin...first off it's a matter of opinion, and there are plenty of NBA experts who would tell you that Bron is the best player in the game today...so no it's not a "no brainer"...........and stats actually show that Bron (and I believe Wade) have been better than Kobe in the last 2 minutes of the game.....and when it comes to leading and getting everyone involved (and not shooting 3 shots in a half of an elimination game), I'll take Bron......but I have another question (particulary for shootingmachine) what has Kobe done since Shaq has left to make you think he's the better leader.....just interested in knowing. Edit Z isn't great, by any means....he's an above avg. center.
<div class="quote_poster">Quoting Jurassic:</div><div class="quote_post">There are plenty of examples where that isn't true. The first that comes to mind would be the Bulls, Luc Longely was far from great. Besides, Lebron isn't playing with a "great" center. Z is above average, and a great player, but not a great center.</div> Check the words "almost every." Big Z is the 4th best center in the league, behind Shaq, Ben Wallace and Yao Ming. You were just posting in this thread about 25 minutes ago about how a good center helps so much. He's a great player but not a great center? Please explain seeing as he play's the center position. <div class="quote_poster">Quoting THE DREAM:</div><div class="quote_post">and I'll have to disagree with you and say that Lebron is better on the offensive side of the ball, Kobe has the better jumpshot, but that's it....they both can get to the basket, but Bron does a better job of orchestrating the offense and finding the open man....Kobe is the better defender out of the two, but his defense isn't great enough for me to take him over Lebron.</div> LeBron is not better than Kobe on the offensive end. The farest I will go is say they are equal offensivley. Defensivly, LeBron is nowhere near Kobe's standards, or even Wade's standards for that matter. For you to put LeBron ahead of Kobe, you would have to believe his offense supremely beats Kobe's offense, just like Kobe's defense supremely rules LeBron's defense. I don't think you can honestly agree with that. <div class="quote_poster">Quoting THE DREAM:</div><div class="quote_post">Z isn't great, by any means....he's an above avg. center.</div> Name the centers that are better than him. Currently, I can only think of three.
All around on the offensive end I think he's better (it's not a no brainer just an honest opinion)....his passing ability deficates all over bryants passing skills (and I think we can agree on that) YEAR TEAM G GS MPG FG% 3P% FT% OFF DEF RPG APG SPG BPG TO PF PPG 05-06 LAL 80 80 41.0 .450 .347 .850 .9 4.4 5.3 4.5 1.84 .38 3.13 2.90 35.4 05-06 CLE 79 79 42.5 .480 .335 .738 .9 6.1 7.0 6.6 1.56 .84 3.29 2.30 31.4 ^^^both of their stats....Lebron has a better FG and Assist percentage, therefore I say Lebron > Kobe offensively.....while kobe avg.'s more points, he doesn't look for his teammates as much as Lebron. <div class="quote_poster">Quote:</div><div class="quote_post">Name the centers that are better than him. Currently, I can only think of three. </div> Shaq, Yao, Wallace, Okafur, Camby, Nene (I bet you if you asked cavs fans they'd take those guys and maybe a couple of more over Z in a heart beat) etc.......Z is above avg., he's lost a step or two and is aging (that's why he rode the bench so much this post season).
LeBron's role is to get his teammate's involved. Odom takes the role of inititating the offense for the Lakers, of course LeBron is going to get more assists. I can't believe you take two more assists and make him the better player. Kobe's defense makes up for those four extra points lost in the assist section. Again, Tayshaun managed to increase his scoring by 50% against LeBron, I wonder what other player's have done to him.
<div class="quote_poster">Quote:</div><div class="quote_post">LeBron's role is to get his teammate's involved. Odom takes the role of inititating the offense for the Lakers, of course LeBron is going to get more assists. I can't believe you take two more assists and make him the better player. Kobe's defense makes up for those four extra points lost in the assist section. Again, Tayshaun managed to increase his scoring by 50% against LeBron, I wonder what other player's have done to him. </div> Exactly....Kobe at this point in his career really doesn't strike me as someone who can make his team around him better...the fact that Lebron can score AND do a fantastic job of orchestrating the offense, makes me believe he's better.....so thank you for proving my point....and yes Lebron isn't the greatest defender, I'm not denying that...but his defense isn't lousy enough for me to think kobe > lebron.....anyways I'll stop arguing because everyone's allowed to have their opinon, but my main point is that it's not a "no brainer" decision either way, because both players have strengths and weaknesses and it's very debateable. EDIT And no one has yet to answer my question on why Kobe is the better leader...what has he done since shaq left to prove this???
Man its so petty how everything is LeBron vs Kobe now, their not even rivals. look at the laker forum its the same thing lebron vs kobe. Give it time their two different players not to mention one's a 10 year vet the other's been playing for only 3 years its not even that fair a comparison.
All those 'fans' who are just overhyping LeBron makes me sick. Yes, I am a witness too, a fan, but a critical one. Yes, LeBron proved to me that he can be clutch. Yes, he proved he is one of the top 5 players in the leauge. But comparing him to MJ or Kobe... You guys are insane. 5 or 6 years from here, yes. But right now it's not even close. Is LeBron one of the most talented players ever? Of course he is. Is LeBron one of the best players ever? No, not yet.
<div class="quote_poster">Quoting shootingmachine:</div><div class="quote_post">Bit of a contradiction there. How can he be a "great player" but not a "great player" at the position he plays best at?</div> <div class="quote_poster">Quoting Laker_fan:</div><div class="quote_post">Check the words "almost every." Big Z is the 4th best center in the league, behind Shaq, Ben Wallace and Yao Ming. You were just posting in this thread about 25 minutes ago about how a good center helps so much. He's a great player but not a great center? Please explain seeing as he play's the center position.</div> I'll respond to both of you at the same time. Jason Terry for example, is a great player, but he is not by any stretch a great point guard (the position he plays). Same thing goes for a guy like Steve Francis. Get it? I also don't know if I would consider Z to be the 4th best center. I would add Brad Miller to that list, maybe a couple others. Laker_Fan, as for that other thread, I never actually said that having a great center makes someone better. I just used the example of Shaq because we were talking about Kobe Bryant and fg%s. If you go back and read what I wrote, you'll see that later on I mentioned Jason Terry as someone who shot well last year because he had great scorers around him at various positions. However, none of the Mavs' scorers played center.
Lebron is a great player. He maybe even greater than MJ or Kobe in the future(who knows). But to compare him with Kobe now, it is just too early. Kobe is the only one who is in both All-NBA 1st team and defensive 1st team. You can't compare them now or even say Lebron is better than Kobe. Not until Lebron gets a ring and become a great defender.
<div class="quote_poster">Quoting THE DREAM:</div><div class="quote_post">Oh boy where to begin...first off it's a matter of opinion, and there are plenty of NBA experts who would tell you that Bron is the best player in the game today...so no it's not a "no brainer"...........and stats actually show that Bron (and I believe Wade) have been better than Kobe in the last 2 minutes of the game.....and when it comes to leading and getting everyone involved (and not shooting 3 shots in a half of an elimination game), I'll take Bron......but I have another question (particulary for shootingmachine) what has Kobe done since Shaq has left to make you think he's the better leader.....just interested in knowing. Edit Z isn't great, by any means....he's an above avg. center.</div> It is a matter of opinion. But people that have an opinion that Lebron is better than Kobe generally are engulfed by all the hype and are stupid. For a smart expert, or a smart NBA fan in general, it is a no-brainer. Kobe is better. I don't care what stats people come out with. LEBRON IS NOT BETTER...NOT YET. You're a stathead. Stats don't tell everything. How you can even argue that Wade and Lebron are more clutch than Kobe is insane, even as far as ridiculous. Leading isn't just about getting people involved. Kobe said that he only shot 3 shots because he was trying to stay within the system and their gameplan. He said it worked in game 2 so he stuck to what was working. So yes how stupid of Kobe to listen to his coach, he should have took 15 shots and have everyone around him frustrated. Kobe must not be very smart to listen and trust one of the best coaches in the history of the NBA. You seem like a child enthralled in this "Lebron the King" thing that alot of people are jumping on. It makes me sick - all the hype around Lebron. It's not his fault and he's a wonderfully gifted player, but the man just isn't on the same level as Kobe. Offensively or defensively. <div class="quote_poster">Quote:</div><div class="quote_post">All those 'fans' who are just overhyping LeBron makes me sick. Yes, I am a witness too, a fan, but a critical one. Yes, LeBron proved to me that he can be clutch. Yes, he proved he is one of the top 5 players in the leauge. But comparing him to MJ or Kobe... You guys are insane. 5 or 6 years from here, yes. But right now it's not even close. Is LeBron one of the most talented players ever? Of course he is. Is LeBron one of the best players ever? No, not yet.</div> Pretty much sums up my feelings towards Lebron and Kobe.
<div class="quote_poster">Quote:</div><div class="quote_post"> For a smart expert, or a smart NBA fan in general, it is a no-brainer</div> I stopped reading your post after this......I guess anyone who thinks Kobe doesn't walk on water and is untouchable is an idiot and knows nothing about basketball?!?!?!?....PLEASE STOP!!!....the fact that there are threads all over the net, and it's brought up on radio stations all across the nation, makes it a very debateable topic.....and on the 3 shot things, yes Phil wanted him to pass the ball, but I'm sure Phil didn't want Kobe to only take 3 shots.....as the game goes on you as "the leader" of your team have to make adjustments.....there has to come a time where, you say to yourself "this isn't working, I have to do something else"..........and I'll agree that you can't compare MJ to Lebron (as far as their whole careers are concerned)....but you CAN compare Kobe to Lebron, because Kobe isn't MJ either........so to get back to my question that ALL Kobe fans have yet to answer in this thread and on the whole site....what has kobe done and accomplished (since Shaq has gone) to make you think he's the better player to build a team around???....okay I'll answer it for you.....NOTHING!!!.....he got his team to the playoffs (like bron did) only to lose in the 1st round after having a 3 games to 1 lead.
LeBron James is an unbelievable talent, but for the Cavs to make a serious run at the championship he has to allow for others to set him up so that these "role players" understand exactly what is expected from the every night on the offensive side of the ball. The way the Cavs offense is set up right now it makes it almost a given that every player that Danny Ferry is looking to sign must be able to be a catch and shoot player or a catch and finish player. No one on this roster feels comfortable trying to generate their own offense b/c they basically just waiting for LeBron to be doubled so that he will find them. I have never seen an offense more catered to an individual's need to accumulate stats than that of the Cleveland Cavaliers en route to helping LeBron put up MVP statistics. The Cavs were able to surpass all expectations for this season with this style of ball but if they are ever going to be able to beat the upper echelon teams in this league LeBron is going to have to have a teammate who is willing to shoulder the offensive burden of contributing without being set up by James--and Danny Ferry is going to have to bring in someone who is capable of setting up LeBron James (which I feel is nearly impossible considering how much LeBron dominates the ball w/in the framework of the Cavaliers offense). So to answer this debate I feel as if I'd give the edge to Kobe right now b/c he is able to impact the game on both ends w/o having an offensive scheme that only takes into consideration the need for Kobe to dominate the ball. LeBron is more adept to set up his teammates b/c he handles the ball much more than Kobe does--but Kobe is able to score and find his teammates (when he chooses to) from all angles of the court while LeBron in between game is still very suspect. It is either a long contested jump shot or a drive to the basket in the half court set w/ LeBron. His post up game is a work in progress and his pull up jump shot/floater is non existent. Not to mention the fact that teams continually attack LeBron on defense shows me that he hasn't been able to impose his will on his opponents the same way that Kobe does and Michael did. Do I think LeBron has the potential to surpass both Michael and Kobe? I do, but at the same time potential is something that is limitless and right now LeBron's is still limited by his inability to dominate the game w/o dominating the ball and he is limited by his inability to dominate the game on the defensive end--something that Kobe has proven he is able to do on a consistent basis.
You're lingering on this 3 shots thing quite a bit, it's almost as if its your lifeline or something. Get over it man, whats the difference if he takes 3 or 12 shots in that second shot and misses all 12? They were down by 25 to the biggest offensive power-house in the league, I think you can rule out a comeback at that point. Quit making Lebron's teammates seem like crap, because his supporting cast is above average, his and Kobe's supporting casts aren't even close, Kobe has a bottom-5 supporting cast. Big Z is definitely a top-5 center. Nene and Emeka are both pfs so I don't know why you mentioned them. When he is involved in the offense, his post game is almost impossible to stop. For those of you who believe Lebron is more clutch than Kobe, I really don't know how to respond, it's almost sad. As for your question, what has Kobe done? Why is he a better leader? Let's look at how his teammates improved since being around him. -Kwame goes from being an absolute mess into a very serviceable big man -Parker comes in from the D-league and has success as a starter -Odom has a career year -Walton and Vujacic also have their best years Except for Odom (and MAYBE Kwame), I can't see any of the other Laker players starting or being 6th or 7th men on any other playoff teams. What has Kobe done? He lead the Lakers (who many thought would be swept) to 7 games against a top-4 team in the NBA despite his shoddy cast, 3 new starters who had to become accustomed to the triangle, and his 3rd coach in 2 years. Kobe leads by example, and even when Shaq was there, it was undeniable that Kobe was the leader. Do you honestly believe that Kobe wouldn't avg. 2 more assists per game if he,like Lebron, initiated the offense instead of Odom? Please. Lebron is not a better playmaker, its just that he has more of an opportunity to be a playmaker, unlike Kobe. What has Lebron done to be considered a better leader? -Marshall who had a career year last year, played a lot worse this year. -Damon Jones who STARTED on Miami last year has his worst year, and hardly plays in the playoffs. -Hughes also had a career year last year, but was injured most of this year. But even when healthy, he also played significantly worse. Lebron has a good supporting cast, in fact, guys like Damon Jones and Ira Newble would be rotation guys on most other teams. You know when you have a bigman rotation of Z, Gooden, Varejao, Marshall and Henderson, you're in pretty good shape. To compare Kobe's supporting cast to Lebron's is laughable at best. Dream, I think a better question is what has Lebron done to be considered a better leader than Kobe?
<div class="quote_poster">Quoting Iron Shiek:</div><div class="quote_post">LeBron James is an unbelievable talent, but for the Cavs to make a serious run at the championship he has to allow for others to set him up so that these "role players" understand exactly what is expected from the every night on the offensive side of the ball. The way the Cavs offense is set up right now it makes it almost a given that every player that Danny Ferry is looking to sign must be able to be a catch and shoot player or a catch and finish player. No one on this roster feels comfortable trying to generate their own offense b/c they basically just waiting for LeBron to be doubled so that he will find them. I have never seen an offense more catered to an individual's need to accumulate stats than that of the Cleveland Cavaliers en route to helping LeBron put up MVP statistics. The Cavs were able to surpass all expectations for this season with this style of ball but if they are ever going to be able to beat the upper echelon teams in this league LeBron is going to have to have a teammate who is willing to shoulder the offensive burden of contributing without being set up by James--and Danny Ferry is going to have to bring in someone who is capable of setting up LeBron James (which I feel is nearly impossible considering how much LeBron dominates the ball w/in the framework of the Cavaliers offense). So to answer this debate I feel as if I'd give the edge to Kobe right now b/c he is able to impact the game on both ends w/o having an offensive scheme that only takes into consideration the need for Kobe to dominate the ball. LeBron is more adept to set up his teammates b/c he handles the ball much more than Kobe does--but Kobe is able to score and find his teammates (when he chooses to) from all angles of the court while LeBron in between game is still very suspect. It is either a long contested jump shot or a drive to the basket in the half court set w/ LeBron. His post up game is a work in progress and his pull up jump shot/floater is non existent. Not to mention the fact that teams continually attack LeBron on defense shows me that he hasn't been able to impose his will on his opponents the same way that Kobe does and Michael did. Do I think LeBron has the potential to surpass both Michael and Kobe? I do, but at the same time potential is something that is limitless and right now LeBron's is still limited by his inability to dominate the game w/o dominating the ball and he is limited by his inability to dominate the game on the defensive end--something that Kobe has proven he is able to do on a consistent basis.</div> Good points, at the same time kobe's main advantage is experience as well. T
<div class="quote_poster">Quoting THE DREAM:</div><div class="quote_post">Exactly....Kobe at this point in his career really doesn't strike me as someone who can make his team around him better...the fact that Lebron can score AND do a fantastic job of orchestrating the offense, makes me believe he's better.....so thank you for proving my point....and yes Lebron isn't the greatest defender, I'm not denying that...but his defense isn't lousy enough for me to think kobe > lebron.....anyways I'll stop arguing because everyone's allowed to have their opinon, but my main point is that it's not a "no brainer" decision either way, because both players have strengths and weaknesses and it's very debateable.</div> What point of yours did I prove? However, you did help me realise that Kobe get's 4 assists without even having to orchastrate the offense, whereas LeBron gets a mere 2 more while he controls the offense. Kobe's teammates are poorer shooters aswell, so imagine if they shot as well as the Cavs AND Kobe led the offense, he would be buzzing with assists. <div class="quote_poster">Quoting Jurassic:</div><div class="quote_post">I also don't know if I would consider Z to be the 4th best center. I would add Brad Miller to that list, maybe a couple others.</div> Name the others. Big Z scores more, turns the ball over less, blocks more shots and shoots a better FG%. He also alters alot of shots more with his height, which makes him a better post defender than Miller. <div class="quote_poster">Quoting Jurassic:</div><div class="quote_post">Laker_Fan, as for that other thread, I never actually said that having a great center makes someone better. I just used the example of Shaq because we were talking about Kobe Bryant and fg%s. If you go back and read what I wrote, you'll see that later on I mentioned Jason Terry as someone who shot well last year because he had great scorers around him at various positions. However, none of the Mavs' scorers played center.</div> You actually said this before: "If Ray Allen had the chance to play with Shaq in his prime, he could have easily shot 50%fg and 40% from three." Which implies that playing with a good center helps with the shooting. I agree with this. <div class="quote_poster">Quoting THE DREAM:</div><div class="quote_post">yes Phil wanted him to pass the ball, but I'm sure Phil didn't want Kobe to only take 3 shots.....as the game goes on you as "the leader" of your team have to make adjustments.....there has to come a time where, you say to yourself "this isn't working, I have to do something else"..........and I'll agree that you can't compare MJ to Lebron (as far as their whole careers are concerned)....but you CAN compare Kobe to Lebron, because Kobe isn't MJ either........so to get back to my question that ALL Kobe fans have yet to answer in this thread and on the whole site....what has kobe done and accomplished (since Shaq has gone) to make you think he's the better player to build a team around???....okay I'll answer it for you.....NOTHING!!!.....he got his team to the playoffs (like bron did) only to lose in the 1st round after having a 3 games to 1 lead.</div> Do you really think Kobe didn't want to shoot? As I've said many time's of course he wanted to shoot. If it was up to Kobe, he would take every shot. That's just the player he is. He didn't just randomly decide to pass the ball more to the other players. If you look at the game's we won, Kobe passed the ball more and got the others involved. In the end, the offense wasn't bad, it was the defense that killed the game for us. I believe if our D was better, and Kobe played like he did, the Suns wouldn't be in the WCF right now. Kobe does make the players around him better. If you look at how players like Smush, Walton and Lamar in the second half of the season played, you would see improvement. LeBron has better surrounding players and is in the East, hence making it easier for his team to get into a higher spot and play easier teams in the playoffs. Do you realise that the Lakers had the 10th best record overall in the NBA, while playing tougher teams more? One more thing, could you please use correct grammar in your posts? It's extremely hard to read when there are constant dots and capital letters in random places.
<div class="quote_poster">Quoting virve119:</div><div class="quote_post"> Let's look at how his teammates improved since being around him. -Kwame goes from being an absolute mess into a very serviceable big man -Parker comes in from the D-league and has success as a starter -Odom has a career year -Walton and Vujacic also have their best years </div> Ignore Lamar Odom's stats for a minute. I don't know a single Laker fan, on this site or off, that was pleased with Lamar Odom's production this year. He showed up about 1 in every 4 or 5 games. He was much better in Miami. Kwame benefitted from a fresh start, a new city and coach. Actually he had a better overall year in 03-04. Sasha and Luke are at the point in their careers where all they can do is improve, so I don't really give Kobe credit for their improvement. I do think that Kobe played a role in the emergence of Smush Parker. I think its a bit unfair that Kobe is getting credit for everything positive having to do with the Lakers. He's proven that he doesn't need Shaq to get to the playoffs. But he also got Phil Jackson back this year. I feel that Phil is the main reason that this team played so well, not Kobe alone.
<div class="quote_poster">Quoting Jurassic:</div><div class="quote_post">I think its a bit unfair that Kobe is getting credit for everything positive having to do with the Lakers. He's proven that he doesn't need Shaq to get to the playoffs. But he also got Phil Jackson back this year. I feel that Phil is the main reason that this team played so well, not Kobe alone.</div> Credit to Phil and the coaching staff, they set up the plan but who implements it?
